Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Joe Della Barba via CnC-List]

It might be. I have the cheap version that is a $2 Zener diode across the 
alternator. They do help, but any sustained overvoltage will burn them up – 
literally.

Given how much a Balmar alternator costs, I might get one of these, especially 
if I was trying to directly charge a lithium bank. They look much better than 
the old Zeners which also have no indication they have failed unless they are 
totally melted.

 

 

Joe Della Barba

Coquina C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA

 

 

 

 

From: David Knecht via CnC-List  
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 12:58 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: davidakne...@gmail.com
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

 

While on the topic of wiring alternators to batteries, Balmar has a “new” 
alternator protection module. Worth $70?  

Sent from my iPhone





On Jun 1, 2022, at 9:57 AM, Joe Della Barba via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:



This is exactly why if I go lithium, the charging will work as follows:

Alternator > Start Battery > DC-DC Charger > Lithium Battery.

I also have the temp sensor on the alternator, which should help keep it from 
being roasted. That still doesn’t help with the issue of the BMS opening. 

 

Joe Della Barba

Coquina C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA

 

 

 

From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 9:38 AM
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: Bill Coleman mailto:colt...@gmail.com> >
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

 

Thank you for outing the hack, sometimes it is hard to know who to believe when 
something (like this) is not your area of expertise.

I just found this on my Balmar regulator instructions, which gives me pause . 
.. 

 

LFP LiFeP04 Recommendations

Our LFP program is a generalized version of the recommendations provided by the 
top LFP battery manufacturers. For best performance and compatibility, please 
consult your battery manufacturer and use the regulator’s advanced programming 
features to adjust the LFP program as needed. LFP batteries are more sensitive 
to abuse than a traditional chemistry battery and can fail catastrophically. It 
is HIGHLY recommended that the charging system as a whole be installed or 
inspected by a qualified marine electrical installer that has experience with 
Balmar charging system products and LFP batteries. The LFP profile is intended 
to work with the battery manufacturer’s battery management systems (BMS). The 
LFP profile IS NOT a replacement for a BMS.

 

*Many LiFePo4 batteries have a Battery Management System (BMS) that may 
disconnect the battery from the alternator as a protective action or when 
charging is complete. The regulator must be shut down before the battery is 
disconnected .Running an alternator without a battery will damage the 
alternator and may damage any attached system. This is doubly true if the 
battery can be disconnected during high current charging, causing a load dump. 
The load dump can easily cause a high voltage spike which will destroy the 
alternator’s rectifier, at minimum. This is not a warrantable failure. To 
reiterate: THE ALTERNATOR MUST BE SHUT DOWN BEFORE DISCONNECTING THE BATTERY. 
THE ONLY SAFE WAY TO SHUT DOWN THE ALTERNATOR IS TO TURN OFF THE REGULATOR. The 
preferred method of turning off the regulator is disconnecting the regulator’s 
ignition (brown) wire, but if used as an EMERGENCY ONLY shutdown, disconnecting 
the regulator’s power input (red) wire in addition to the ignition wire has a 
very low chance of damaging the regulator.

 

*LFP batteries will readily accept a damaging amount of current. Applying too 
much charge current to a LFP battery will, at the very least, permanently 
damage the battery’s capacity. It is CRITICAL to ensure that the alternator is 
not capable of exceeding the maximum continuous charge current rating of your 
battery (or batteries). As always, check with your battery manufacturer for 
specifics. Your battery manufacturer may supply you with a “C-rate” for 
charging and discharging. The maximum amount of charging current your battery 
can safely handle is determined by multiplying the “C-Rate” by the capacity of 
the bank. i.e. 4x 100Ah 12V batteries rated at 0.5C charge = 400 Ah * 0.5C = 
200amps MAX. If your alternator is capable of outputting more current, at any 
time or condition, than the battery (or batteries) can handle, you may use the 
Amp Manager feature on the MC-624 to lower the maximum field drive output, and 
thereby lower the maximum alternator output current. See page 10 of your 
regulator manual for details and instructions. Be aware that it is not an exact 
1:1 correlation between field output and alternator output, so start with more 
reduction (lower output) than you think you need and adjust accordingly.

 

*It is strongly recommended that an alternator temperature sensor (MC-TS-A) be 
used when charging LFP batteries. Given the extremely high charge 

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

While on the topic of wiring alternators to batteries, Balmar has a “new” 
alternator protection module. Worth $70?  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 1, 2022, at 9:57 AM, Joe Della Barba via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> This is exactly why if I go lithium, the charging will work as follows:
> Alternator > Start Battery > DC-DC Charger > Lithium Battery.
> I also have the temp sensor on the alternator, which should help keep it from 
> being roasted. That still doesn’t help with the issue of the BMS opening.
>  
> Joe Della Barba
> Coquina C 35 MK I
> Kent Island MD USA
>  
>  
>  
> From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List  
> Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 9:38 AM
> To: 'Stus-List' 
> Cc: Bill Coleman 
> Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again
>  
> Thank you for outing the hack, sometimes it is hard to know who to believe 
> when something (like this) is not your area of expertise.
> I just found this on my Balmar regulator instructions, which gives me pause . 
> ..
>  
> LFP LiFeP04 Recommendations
> Our LFP program is a generalized version of the recommendations provided by 
> the top LFP battery manufacturers. For best performance and compatibility, 
> please consult your battery manufacturer and use the regulator’s advanced 
> programming features to adjust the LFP program as needed. LFP batteries are 
> more sensitive to abuse than a traditional chemistry battery and can fail 
> catastrophically. It is HIGHLY recommended that the charging system as a 
> whole be installed or inspected by a qualified marine electrical installer 
> that has experience with Balmar charging system products and LFP batteries. 
> The LFP profile is intended to work with the battery manufacturer’s battery 
> management systems (BMS). The LFP profile IS NOT a replacement for a BMS.
>  
> FMany LiFePo4 batteries have a Battery Management System (BMS) that may 
> disconnect the battery from the alternator as a protective action or when 
> charging is complete. The regulator must be shut down before the battery is 
> disconnected .Running an alternator without a battery will damage the 
> alternator and may damage any attached system. This is doubly true if the 
> battery can be disconnected during high current charging, causing a load 
> dump. The load dump can easily cause a high voltage spike which will destroy 
> the alternator’s rectifier, at minimum. This is not a warrantable failure. To 
> reiterate: THE ALTERNATOR MUST BE SHUT DOWN BEFORE DISCONNECTING THE BATTERY. 
> THE ONLY SAFE WAY TO SHUT DOWN THE ALTERNATOR IS TO TURN OFF THE REGULATOR. 
> The preferred method of turning off the regulator is disconnecting the 
> regulator’s ignition (brown) wire, but if used as an EMERGENCY ONLY shutdown, 
> disconnecting the regulator’s power input (red) wire in addition to the 
> ignition wire has a very low chance of damaging the regulator.
>  
> FLFP batteries will readily accept a damaging amount of current. Applying too 
> much charge current to a LFP battery will, at the very least, permanently 
> damage the battery’s capacity. It is CRITICAL to ensure that the alternator 
> is not capable of exceeding the maximum continuous charge current rating of 
> your battery (or batteries). As always, check with your battery manufacturer 
> for specifics. Your battery manufacturer may supply you with a “C-rate” for 
> charging and discharging. The maximum amount of charging current your battery 
> can safely handle is determined by multiplying the “C-Rate” by the capacity 
> of the bank. i.e. 4x 100Ah 12V batteries rated at 0.5C charge = 400 Ah * 0.5C 
> = 200amps MAX. If your alternator is capable of outputting more current, at 
> any time or condition, than the battery (or batteries) can handle, you may 
> use the Amp Manager feature on the MC-624 to lower the maximum field drive 
> output, and thereby lower the maximum alternator output current. See page 10 
> of your regulator manual for details and instructions. Be aware that it is 
> not an exact 1:1 correlation between field output and alternator output, so 
> start with more reduction (lower output) than you think you need and adjust 
> accordingly.
>  
> FIt is strongly recommended that an alternator temperature sensor (MC-TS-A) 
> be used when charging LFP batteries. Given the extremely high charge 
> acceptance rate of LFP batteries, the alternator will be driven to full 
> output for almost all of the charge cycle. This can cause overheating in 
> automotive style alternators resulting in a significantly shortened lifespan. 
> When equipped with the MC-TS-A temperature sensor, the MC-624 will help you 
> protect your investment by reducing the field voltage to your alternator by 
> 50% when over the “AL1” temperature threshold. I

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Matthew via CnC-List]

FWIW, I periodically revisit this issue as technologies improve, and so far I 
have reached the same conclusion as Charlie.  For how I use my boat, my 
old-fashioned lead acid battery system is good enough.

 

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List  
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2022 11:15 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: j...@dellabarba.com; cenel...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

 

Thanks all--and to paraphrase Joe's remarks, this is exactly why I will never 
go lithium on Water Phantom.

 

My boat use is for pleasure, not live aboard or extended cruising. Keeping up 
with even the simplest systems, when there are many of them, is enough 
engagement for me with the intricacies of boat maintenance. Do I want to add 
even more? You have got to be kidding me!!

 

Now and probably for some time, IMHO a lithium battery on a boat violates the 
KISS principle big time!

 

Charlie Nelson

Water Phantom 36XL/kcb
New Bern, NC

 

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Charlie Nelson via CnC-List]

Thanks all--and to paraphrase Joe's remarks, this is exactly why I will never 
go lithium on Water Phantom.
My boat use is for pleasure, not live aboard or extended cruising. Keeping up 
with even the simplest systems, when there are many of them, is enough 
engagement for me with the intricacies of boat maintenance. Do I want to add 
even more? You have got to be kidding me!!
Now and probably for some time, IMHO a lithium battery on a boat violates the 
KISS principle big time!
Charlie NelsonWater Phantom 36XL/kcb
New Bern, NC

-Original Message-
From: Joe Della Barba via CnC-List 
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: j...@dellabarba.com
Sent: Wed, Jun 1, 2022 9:57 am
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

This is exactly why if I go lithium, the 
charging will work as follows:Alternator > Start Battery > DC-DC Charger > 
Lithium Battery.I also have the temp sensor on the alternator, which should 
help keep it from being roasted. That still doesn’t help with the issue of the 
BMS opening.   Joe Della BarbaCoquina C 35 MK IKent Island MD USA      From: 
Bill Coleman via CnC-List  
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 9:38 AM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Bill Coleman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again  Thank you for outing the hack, 
sometimes it is hard to know who to believe when something (like this) is not 
your area of expertise.I just found this on my Balmar regulator instructions, 
which gives me pause . ..   LFP LiFeP04 RecommendationsOur LFP program is a 
generalized version of the recommendations provided by the top LFP battery 
manufacturers. For best performance and compatibility, please consult your 
battery manufacturer and use the regulator’s advanced programming features to 
adjust the LFP program as needed. LFP batteries are more sensitive to abuse 
than a traditional chemistry battery and can fail catastrophically. It is 
HIGHLY recommended that the charging system as a whole be installed or 
inspected by a qualified marine electrical installer that has experience with 
Balmar charging system products and LFP batteries. The LFP profile is intended 
to work with the battery manufacturer’s battery management systems (BMS). The 
LFP profile IS NOT a replacement for a BMS.  FMany LiFePo4 batteries have a 
Battery Management System (BMS) that may disconnect the battery from the 
alternator as a protective action or when charging is complete. The regulator 
must be shut down before the battery is disconnected .Running an alternator 
without a battery will damage the alternator and may damage any attached 
system. This is doubly true if the battery can be disconnected during high 
current charging, causing a load dump. The load dump can easily cause a high 
voltage spike which will destroy the alternator’s rectifier, at minimum. This 
is not a warrantable failure. To reiterate: THE ALTERNATOR MUST BE SHUT DOWN 
BEFORE DISCONNECTING THE BATTERY. THE ONLY SAFE WAY TO SHUT DOWN THE ALTERNATOR 
IS TO TURN OFF THE REGULATOR. The preferred method of turning off the regulator 
is disconnecting the regulator’s ignition (brown) wire, but if used as an 
EMERGENCY ONLY shutdown, disconnecting the regulator’s power input (red) wire 
in addition to the ignition wire has a very low chance of damaging the 
regulator.  FLFP batteries will readily accept a damaging amount of current. 
Applying too much charge current to a LFP battery will, at the very least, 
permanently damage the battery’s capacity. It is CRITICAL to ensure that the 
alternator is not capable of exceeding the maximum continuous charge current 
rating of your battery (or batteries). As always, check with your battery 
manufacturer for specifics. Your battery manufacturer may supply you with a 
“C-rate” for charging and discharging. The maximum amount of charging current 
your battery can safely handle is determined by multiplying the “C-Rate” by the 
capacity of the bank. i.e. 4x 100Ah 12V batteries rated at 0.5C charge = 400 Ah 
* 0.5C = 200amps MAX. If your alternator is capable of outputting more current, 
at any time or condition, than the battery (or batteries) can handle, you may 
use the Amp Manager feature on the MC-624 to lower the maximum field drive 
output, and thereby lower the maximum alternator output current. See page 10 of 
your regulator manual for details and instructions. Be aware that it is not an 
exact 1:1 correlation between field output and alternator output, so start with 
more reduction (lower output) than you think you need and adjust accordingly.  
FIt is strongly recommended that an alternator temperature sensor (MC-TS-A) be 
used when charging LFP batteries. Given the extremely high charge acceptance 
rate of LFP batteries, the alternator will be driven to full output for almost 
all of the charge cycle. This can cause overheating in automotive style 
alternators resulting in a significantly shortened lifespan. When equipped with 
the MC-TS-A temperature sensor, the MC-624 will help you protect your 
investment by

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Matthew via CnC-List]

It sounds like you need to do a complete re-fit – batteries, charger, 
alternator – and not simply swap batteries.

 

From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List  
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2022 9:38 AM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Bill Coleman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

 

Thank you for outing the hack, sometimes it is hard to know who to believe when 
something (like this) is not your area of expertise.

I just found this on my Balmar regulator instructions, which gives me pause . 
.. 

 

LFP LiFeP04 Recommendations

Our LFP program is a generalized version of the recommendations provided by the 
top LFP battery manufacturers. For best performance and compatibility, please 
consult your battery manufacturer and use the regulator’s advanced programming 
features to adjust the LFP program as needed. LFP batteries are more sensitive 
to abuse than a traditional chemistry battery and can fail catastrophically. It 
is HIGHLY recommended that the charging system as a whole be installed or 
inspected by a qualified marine electrical installer that has experience with 
Balmar charging system products and LFP batteries. The LFP profile is intended 
to work with the battery manufacturer’s battery management systems (BMS). The 
LFP profile IS NOT a replacement for a BMS.

 

*Many LiFePo4 batteries have a Battery Management System (BMS) that may 
disconnect the battery from the alternator as a protective action or when 
charging is complete. The regulator must be shut down before the battery is 
disconnected .Running an alternator without a battery will damage the 
alternator and may damage any attached system. This is doubly true if the 
battery can be disconnected during high current charging, causing a load dump. 
The load dump can easily cause a high voltage spike which will destroy the 
alternator’s rectifier, at minimum. This is not a warrantable failure. To 
reiterate: THE ALTERNATOR MUST BE SHUT DOWN BEFORE DISCONNECTING THE BATTERY. 
THE ONLY SAFE WAY TO SHUT DOWN THE ALTERNATOR IS TO TURN OFF THE REGULATOR. The 
preferred method of turning off the regulator is disconnecting the regulator’s 
ignition (brown) wire, but if used as an EMERGENCY ONLY shutdown, disconnecting 
the regulator’s power input (red) wire in addition to the ignition wire has a 
very low chance of damaging the regulator.

 

*LFP batteries will readily accept a damaging amount of current. Applying too 
much charge current to a LFP battery will, at the very least, permanently 
damage the battery’s capacity. It is CRITICAL to ensure that the alternator is 
not capable of exceeding the maximum continuous charge current rating of your 
battery (or batteries). As always, check with your battery manufacturer for 
specifics. Your battery manufacturer may supply you with a “C-rate” for 
charging and discharging. The maximum amount of charging current your battery 
can safely handle is determined by multiplying the “C-Rate” by the capacity of 
the bank. i.e. 4x 100Ah 12V batteries rated at 0.5C charge = 400 Ah * 0.5C = 
200amps MAX. If your alternator is capable of outputting more current, at any 
time or condition, than the battery (or batteries) can handle, you may use the 
Amp Manager feature on the MC-624 to lower the maximum field drive output, and 
thereby lower the maximum alternator output current. See page 10 of your 
regulator manual for details and instructions. Be aware that it is not an exact 
1:1 correlation between field output and alternator output, so start with more 
reduction (lower output) than you think you need and adjust accordingly.

 

*It is strongly recommended that an alternator temperature sensor (MC-TS-A) be 
used when charging LFP batteries. Given the extremely high charge acceptance 
rate of LFP batteries, the alternator will be driven to full output for almost 
all of the charge cycle. This can cause overheating in automotive style 
alternators resulting in a significantly shortened lifespan. When equipped with 
the MC-TS-A temperature sensor, the MC-624 will help you protect your 
investment by reducing the field voltage to your alternator by 50% when over 
the “AL1” temperature threshold. If you cannot use an MC-TS-A in your 
application, you should monitor the alternator’s temperature (measure as close 
to the loop ends of the stator as possible) and discontinue charging if the 
alternator temperature rises above the maximum recommended level. You may also 
use the Amp Manager feature on your MC-624 to reduce maximum output until a 
tolerable alternator temperature is maintained under all conditions.

 

*Most LFP battery manufacturers specify minimum and maximum charging 
temperatures to be from freezing (32°F, 0°C) to around 111°F (44°C). Again, 
consult with your battery manufacturer for specifics. When equipped with a 
MC-TS-B, the MC-624 can disable charging if the battery temperature exceeds the 
“B1L” temperature threshold and re-enable charging when the temperature drops 
below the threshold. This feature

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

nditions.
>
>
>
> FMost LFP battery manufacturers specify minimum and maximum charging
> temperatures to be from freezing (32°F, 0°C) to around 111°F (44°C). Again,
> consult with your battery manufacturer for specifics. When equipped with a
> MC-TS-B, the MC-624 can disable charging if the battery temperature exceeds
> the “B1L” temperature threshold and re-enable charging when the temperature
> drops below the threshold. This feature is meant to supplement, not
> replace, your BMS’s temperature protection features. “B1L” should be
> adjusted to be slightly less than BMS’s temperature threshold. Note that
> the regulator does not have the capability to prevent charging during low
> temperatures.
>
>   * www.balmar.net
> <http://www.balmar.net> / Customer Service: +1 (360) 435-6100 x1 /
> Technical Support: +1 (360) 435-6100 x3*
>
> *
> Tech Service is available Monday - Friday (8:30am - 7:30pm EST)*
>
>
>
>
>
> I guess you have to do your homework!
>
>
>
>
>
> Bill Coleman
>
> Entrada, Erie, PA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Riley Anderson via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 01, 2022 7:16 AM
> *To:* Stus-List
> *Cc:* Riley Anderson
> *Subject:* Stus-List Re: Batteries again
>
>
>
> Paul makes some good points but I want to remind everyone that there is no
> such thing as a drop in replacement lithium battery for boats.
> Accommodations must be made on the charge side. Charge profiles need to be
> 3 stage and specific to lithium chemistries. Also, you can do serious
> damage to your alternator if you try hooking up a large lithium bank to a
> small alternator. The internal resistance of lithium cells is so low, the
> alternator will quickly burn out trying to supply the load. Additionally,
> the drop in replacement type batteries pose an additional hazard in that a
> high voltage disconnect would also destroy your alternator if precautions
> are not taken.
>
>
>
> One last gripe, the YouTuber, Will Prowse, is a hack. He is not an
> engineer, nor an expert on lithium batteries. He is an expert in online
> marketing. His business model is to promote the cheapest of products with
> affiliate links so he gets a kickback of anything he mentions. People
> always want cheap, and are fooled into believing they're getting cheap and
> great when someone on the internet purports to be an expert.
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 26, 2022, 3:24 PM Dreuge via CnC-List 
> wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
>
>
> As I mentioned in previously replies to the list, it no longer makes any
> sense to buy lead acid batteries(i.e. flooded, gel, or AGM)  for a house
> bank.   For lead acid, the AH capacity is highly dependent on the current
> load due to the Peukert Effect.   Deep cycle lead acid batteries are rated
> at C/20.  For a 100AH rated battery, this is 100AH/20H = 5A.   This is
> often called the 20H rate, i.e.  5A * 20H = 100AH. If the actual load
> is 20A, then the same 100AH rated lead acid battery would only provide 60AH
> (or 10AH at 100A).  And worse, one should only use 50% of a lead acid
> battery’s capacity as going below 50% substantially degrades the battery
> lifetime.   This means that a 100AH lead acid battery has an effective 50AH
> @ 5A (or 30AH @ 20A).
>
>
>
> Let’s assume a 100AH lead acid battery price of $264 (the average of the
> Amazon prices), then 2 batteries would cost one $528 and one would get an
> effective 100AH (50%*200AH) at 5A loads.
>
>
>
> Now,  the price of LiFePO4 batteries have come way down in the last few
> years and their performance and lifetimes are a magnitude better.   A 100AH
> LiFePO4 battery is typically rated at 1C.  That is they can deliver 100AH
> at 100A for 1H(or 5A at 20H or 20A at 5H).  They can also charge at amps up
> to 100A which is impossible for a lead acid battery.   And LiFePO4
> batteries live 5 times longer.  That is,  one would expect to replace 5
> sets of lead acid batteries before replacing a LiFePO4 battery.Yes,
> LiFePO4 batteries are more complex as they require a battery management
> system (i.e. BMS), but there are companies which provide 12V drop in
> replacements with the BMS built internal to the battery.   Top companies
> like Battle Born sell a 100AH LiFePO4 for $874 and provide a 10yr warranty.
>   Renogy sells a 100AH LiFePO4 for $765.   A company, CurrentConnected.com, 
> sells
> a SOK 100AH LiFePO4 battery for $569 and it has a 10 yr warranty!
> YouTuber Will Prowse rates the SOK as the best value LiFePO4 12V drop in
> replacement (see https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/lithium-batteries.html).
> There are a plethora of cheaper 100AH LiFePO4 batteries

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Joe Della Barba via CnC-List]

This is exactly why if I go lithium, the charging will work as follows:

Alternator > Start Battery > DC-DC Charger > Lithium Battery.

I also have the temp sensor on the alternator, which should help keep it from 
being roasted. That still doesn’t help with the issue of the BMS opening. 

 

Joe Della Barba

Coquina C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA

 

 

 

From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List  
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 9:38 AM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Bill Coleman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

 

Thank you for outing the hack, sometimes it is hard to know who to believe when 
something (like this) is not your area of expertise.

I just found this on my Balmar regulator instructions, which gives me pause . 
.. 

 

LFP LiFeP04 Recommendations

Our LFP program is a generalized version of the recommendations provided by the 
top LFP battery manufacturers. For best performance and compatibility, please 
consult your battery manufacturer and use the regulator’s advanced programming 
features to adjust the LFP program as needed. LFP batteries are more sensitive 
to abuse than a traditional chemistry battery and can fail catastrophically. It 
is HIGHLY recommended that the charging system as a whole be installed or 
inspected by a qualified marine electrical installer that has experience with 
Balmar charging system products and LFP batteries. The LFP profile is intended 
to work with the battery manufacturer’s battery management systems (BMS). The 
LFP profile IS NOT a replacement for a BMS.

 

*Many LiFePo4 batteries have a Battery Management System (BMS) that may 
disconnect the battery from the alternator as a protective action or when 
charging is complete. The regulator must be shut down before the battery is 
disconnected .Running an alternator without a battery will damage the 
alternator and may damage any attached system. This is doubly true if the 
battery can be disconnected during high current charging, causing a load dump. 
The load dump can easily cause a high voltage spike which will destroy the 
alternator’s rectifier, at minimum. This is not a warrantable failure. To 
reiterate: THE ALTERNATOR MUST BE SHUT DOWN BEFORE DISCONNECTING THE BATTERY. 
THE ONLY SAFE WAY TO SHUT DOWN THE ALTERNATOR IS TO TURN OFF THE REGULATOR. The 
preferred method of turning off the regulator is disconnecting the regulator’s 
ignition (brown) wire, but if used as an EMERGENCY ONLY shutdown, disconnecting 
the regulator’s power input (red) wire in addition to the ignition wire has a 
very low chance of damaging the regulator.

 

*LFP batteries will readily accept a damaging amount of current. Applying too 
much charge current to a LFP battery will, at the very least, permanently 
damage the battery’s capacity. It is CRITICAL to ensure that the alternator is 
not capable of exceeding the maximum continuous charge current rating of your 
battery (or batteries). As always, check with your battery manufacturer for 
specifics. Your battery manufacturer may supply you with a “C-rate” for 
charging and discharging. The maximum amount of charging current your battery 
can safely handle is determined by multiplying the “C-Rate” by the capacity of 
the bank. i.e. 4x 100Ah 12V batteries rated at 0.5C charge = 400 Ah * 0.5C = 
200amps MAX. If your alternator is capable of outputting more current, at any 
time or condition, than the battery (or batteries) can handle, you may use the 
Amp Manager feature on the MC-624 to lower the maximum field drive output, and 
thereby lower the maximum alternator output current. See page 10 of your 
regulator manual for details and instructions. Be aware that it is not an exact 
1:1 correlation between field output and alternator output, so start with more 
reduction (lower output) than you think you need and adjust accordingly.

 

*It is strongly recommended that an alternator temperature sensor (MC-TS-A) be 
used when charging LFP batteries. Given the extremely high charge acceptance 
rate of LFP batteries, the alternator will be driven to full output for almost 
all of the charge cycle. This can cause overheating in automotive style 
alternators resulting in a significantly shortened lifespan. When equipped with 
the MC-TS-A temperature sensor, the MC-624 will help you protect your 
investment by reducing the field voltage to your alternator by 50% when over 
the “AL1” temperature threshold. If you cannot use an MC-TS-A in your 
application, you should monitor the alternator’s temperature (measure as close 
to the loop ends of the stator as possible) and discontinue charging if the 
alternator temperature rises above the maximum recommended level. You may also 
use the Amp Manager feature on your MC-624 to reduce maximum output until a 
tolerable alternator temperature is maintained under all conditions.

 

*Most LFP battery manufacturers specify minimum and maximum charging 
temperatures to be from freezing (32°F, 0°C) to around 111°F (44°C). Again, 
consult with you

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

.

   www.balmar.net / Customer Service: 
+1 (360) 435-6100 x1 / Technical Support: +1 (360) 435-6100 x3


  Tech Service is available Monday - Friday (8:30am - 7:30pm EST)

 

 

I guess you have to do your homework!

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: Riley Anderson via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2022 7:16 AM
To: Stus-List
Cc: Riley Anderson
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

 

Paul makes some good points but I want to remind everyone that there is no such 
thing as a drop in replacement lithium battery for boats. Accommodations must 
be made on the charge side. Charge profiles need to be 3 stage and specific to 
lithium chemistries. Also, you can do serious damage to your alternator if you 
try hooking up a large lithium bank to a small alternator. The internal 
resistance of lithium cells is so low, the alternator will quickly burn out 
trying to supply the load. Additionally, the drop in replacement type batteries 
pose an additional hazard in that a high voltage disconnect would also destroy 
your alternator if precautions are not taken.

 

One last gripe, the YouTuber, Will Prowse, is a hack. He is not an engineer, 
nor an expert on lithium batteries. He is an expert in online marketing. His 
business model is to promote the cheapest of products with affiliate links so 
he gets a kickback of anything he mentions. People always want cheap, and are 
fooled into believing they're getting cheap and great when someone on the 
internet purports to be an expert.

 

On Thu, May 26, 2022, 3:24 PM Dreuge via CnC-List  wrote:

Dave,

 

As I mentioned in previously replies to the list, it no longer makes any sense 
to buy lead acid batteries(i.e. flooded, gel, or AGM)  for a house bank.   For 
lead acid, the AH capacity is highly dependent on the current load due to the 
Peukert Effect.   Deep cycle lead acid batteries are rated at C/20.  For a 
100AH rated battery, this is 100AH/20H = 5A.   This is often called the 20H 
rate, i.e.  5A * 20H = 100AH. If the actual load is 20A, then the same 
100AH rated lead acid battery would only provide 60AH (or 10AH at 100A).  And 
worse, one should only use 50% of a lead acid battery’s capacity as going below 
50% substantially degrades the battery lifetime.   This means that a 100AH lead 
acid battery has an effective 50AH @ 5A (or 30AH @ 20A).  

 

Let’s assume a 100AH lead acid battery price of $264 (the average of the Amazon 
prices), then 2 batteries would cost one $528 and one would get an effective 
100AH (50%*200AH) at 5A loads.  

 

Now,  the price of LiFePO4 batteries have come way down in the last few years 
and their performance and lifetimes are a magnitude better.   A 100AH LiFePO4 
battery is typically rated at 1C.  That is they can deliver 100AH at 100A for 
1H(or 5A at 20H or 20A at 5H).  They can also charge at amps up to 100A which 
is impossible for a lead acid battery.   And LiFePO4 batteries live 5 times 
longer.  That is,  one would expect to replace 5 sets of lead acid batteries 
before replacing a LiFePO4 battery.Yes, LiFePO4 batteries are more complex 
as they require a battery management system (i.e. BMS), but there are companies 
which provide 12V drop in replacements with the BMS built internal to the 
battery.   Top companies like Battle Born sell a 100AH LiFePO4 for $874 and 
provide a 10yr warranty.   Renogy sells a 100AH LiFePO4 for $765.   A company, 
CurrentConnected.com, sells a SOK 100AH LiFePO4 battery for $569 and it has a 
10 yr warranty!   YouTuber Will Prowse rates the SOK as the best value LiFePO4 
12V drop in replacement (see 
https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/lithium-batteries.html).  There are a 
plethora of cheaper 100AH LiFePO4 batteries that can be found on Amazon, Ebay, 
AliExpres, …, but one gets little service and limited warrantees,  so I would 
recommend avoiding these.

 

Rather than buying 2 100AH lead acid batteries for $528 at a total weight of 
140lbs(70lbs each) , one could just buy 1 100AH LiFePO4 for $569 weighing only 
28lbs and get a better performing battery.  That is basically the same price.   
If one takes into account the increased lifetime, the saving is HUGE!  

 

If one builds their own DIY LiFePO4 battery, the savings is much much greater.  
 Last year I replaced 2 100AH lead acid batteries with one DIY 560AH LiFePO4 
battery for a little over $900 (see my blog link below).  The DIY LiFePO4 
battery occupies the same location and physical space as the previous 2 lead 
acid batteries, it weighs much less (95 lbs vs 125 lbs), but has 5 TIMES the 
capacity.

 

I recently gave a talk on off-grid solar systems a local  amateur radio society 
meeting.  The discuss the battery as the heart of the system and make the case 
for LiFePO4 batteries.  My slides from the talk are available on my blog:

 

https

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Riley Anderson via CnC-List]

Paul makes some good points but I want to remind everyone that there is no
such thing as a drop in replacement lithium battery for boats.
Accommodations must be made on the charge side. Charge profiles need to be
3 stage and specific to lithium chemistries. Also, you can do serious
damage to your alternator if you try hooking up a large lithium bank to a
small alternator. The internal resistance of lithium cells is so low, the
alternator will quickly burn out trying to supply the load. Additionally,
the drop in replacement type batteries pose an additional hazard in that a
high voltage disconnect would also destroy your alternator if precautions
are not taken.

One last gripe, the YouTuber, Will Prowse, is a hack. He is not an
engineer, nor an expert on lithium batteries. He is an expert in online
marketing. His business model is to promote the cheapest of products with
affiliate links so he gets a kickback of anything he mentions. People
always want cheap, and are fooled into believing they're getting cheap and
great when someone on the internet purports to be an expert.

On Thu, May 26, 2022, 3:24 PM Dreuge via CnC-List 
wrote:

> Dave,
>
> As I mentioned in previously replies to the list, it no longer makes any
> sense to buy lead acid batteries(i.e. flooded, gel, or AGM)  for a house
> bank.   For lead acid, the AH capacity is highly dependent on the current
> load due to the Peukert Effect.   Deep cycle lead acid batteries are rated
> at C/20.  For a 100AH rated battery, this is 100AH/20H = 5A.   This is
> often called the 20H rate, i.e.  5A * 20H = 100AH. If the actual load
> is 20A, then the same 100AH rated lead acid battery would only provide 60AH
> (or 10AH at 100A).  And worse, one should only use 50% of a lead acid
> battery’s capacity as going below 50% substantially degrades the battery
> lifetime.   This means that a 100AH lead acid battery has an effective 50AH
> @ 5A (or 30AH @ 20A).
>
> Let’s assume a 100AH lead acid battery price of $264 (the average of the
> Amazon prices), then 2 batteries would cost one $528 and one would get an
> effective 100AH (50%*200AH) at 5A loads.
>
> Now,  the price of LiFePO4 batteries have come way down in the last few
> years and their performance and lifetimes are a magnitude better.   A 100AH
> LiFePO4 battery is typically rated at 1C.  That is they can deliver 100AH
> at 100A for 1H(or 5A at 20H or 20A at 5H).  They can also charge at amps up
> to 100A which is impossible for a lead acid battery.   And LiFePO4
> batteries live 5 times longer.  That is,  one would expect to replace 5
> sets of lead acid batteries before replacing a LiFePO4 battery.Yes,
> LiFePO4 batteries are more complex as they require a battery management
> system (i.e. BMS), but there are companies which provide 12V drop in
> replacements with the BMS built internal to the battery.   Top companies
> like Battle Born sell a 100AH LiFePO4 for $874 and provide a 10yr warranty.
>   Renogy sells a 100AH LiFePO4 for $765.   A company, CurrentConnected.com, 
> sells
> a SOK 100AH LiFePO4 battery for $569 and it has a 10 yr warranty!
> YouTuber Will Prowse rates the SOK as the best value LiFePO4 12V drop in
> replacement (see https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/lithium-batteries.html).
> There are a plethora of cheaper 100AH LiFePO4 batteries that can be found
> on Amazon, Ebay, AliExpres, …, but one gets little service and limited
> warrantees,  so I would recommend avoiding these.
>
> Rather than buying 2 100AH lead acid batteries for $528 at a total weight
> of 140lbs(70lbs each) , one could just buy 1 100AH LiFePO4 for $569
> weighing only 28lbs and get a better performing battery.  That is basically
> the same price.   If one takes into account the increased lifetime, the
> saving is HUGE!
>
> If one builds their own DIY LiFePO4 battery, the savings is much much
> greater.   Last year I replaced 2 100AH lead acid batteries with one DIY
> 560AH LiFePO4 battery for a little over $900 (see my blog link below).  The
> DIY LiFePO4 battery occupies the same location and physical space as the
> previous 2 lead acid batteries, it weighs much less (95 lbs vs 125 lbs),
> but has 5 TIMES the capacity.
>
> I recently gave a talk on off-grid solar systems a local  amateur radio
> society meeting.  The discuss the battery as the heart of the system and
> make the case for LiFePO4 batteries.  My slides from the talk are available
> on my blog:
>
> https://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/2021/10/solar-off-grid-system.html
>
>
> Also, the details of my DIY 560AH LiFePO4 are posted at the link below
> which includes details about alternator charging.
>
>
> https://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/2021/06/adding-new-lifepo4-to-house-battery.html
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> Paul E.
> 1981 C Landfall 38
> S/V Johanna Rose
> Fort Walton Beach, FL
>
> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/
>
> On May 26, 2022, at 11:24 AM, David Knecht via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> I have been following the battery discussion 

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

I am actually leaning toward the VMAX group 31, which I can buy directly from 
the company.  They are made in the US and Vietnam, appear to have good and 
complete specifications (cycling, design etc.).  I can get the Group 31 with 
135Ah for $349 vs. the Lifeline Group 31 which is 105 Ah for $428 from 
Defender.  It would be great if someone with more expertise looks at their data 
and see if I am missing something.  Dave

https://www.vmaxtanks.com/XTR31-135-12Volts-135AH-Deep-Cycle-XTREME-AGM-Battery-_p_176.html

https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?name=lifeline-agm-deep-cycle-marine-battery-(gpl-31t)=-1|328|2289954|2289956=152242

David Knecht
Rear Commodore
Thames Yacht Club
New London, CT



> On May 26, 2022, at 11:11 PM, Korbey Hunt via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> I highly recommend Lifeline group 31
> 
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
> From: Joe Della Barba via CnC-List  <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 9:40:31 AM
> To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
> Cc: j...@dellabarba.com <mailto:j...@dellabarba.com>  <mailto:j...@dellabarba.com>>
> Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again
>  
> There is a lot of reason to be concerned about off brands. Pretty much all 
> cycling batteries of the same size will be about the same AH rating. There is 
> no magic in lead batteries, the AH per pound is pretty consistent.  What 
> matters *hugely* is the number of cycles that they can endure before being 
> trashed. The various cheap Chinese imports are highly variable to say the 
> least, their reviews are all over the place. Lifeline is usually considered 
> the best AGM maker.
> FYI – Deka makes all the West Marine AGMs, you might call around your local 
> battery shop and see what they charge. They are worse than Lifelines, but if 
> they crap out after a week at least you can return them to the store 
> Joe Della Barba
> Coquina C 35 MK I
> Kent Island MD USA
>  
>  
>  
> From: David Knecht via CnC-List  <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> 
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 11:25 AM
> To: CnC CnC discussion list  <mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com>>
> Cc: David Knecht mailto:davidakne...@gmail.com>>
> Subject: Stus-List Batteries again
>  
> I have been following the battery discussion and have a question.  I need to 
> replace my two 9 year old AGM batteries this season.  I have separate start 
> and house batteries which can be combined if needed.  I don’t have large 
> power needs (electronics, autopilot and fridge when cruising).  I have been 
> reading and researching this and I am unsure of what to purchase.  From what 
> I have read, AH is the important number to focus on.  Last time, I got 
> Lifeline AGM group 27 from Defender.  Defender has 3 different group 27 
> batteries
> Powertech rated at 92AH  which cost about $330
> Lifeline  rated at 100AH for 432
> Northstar   rated at 92AH for 457
>   
> From Amazon, I can get a VMAX group 27 with 100AH for $289 or a Universal 
> with 110 AH for $239.  Is there any reason to be concerned about less known 
> (to me) brands from Amazon or does it make sense to just focus on the 
> numbers?  Thanks- Dave  
>  
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

One of the newer chargers.

I got a Pronautic 1220P for my start battery for some reason, and it has a 
setting on it for LiFePO4.

I will send you a PDF of the manual off list.

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: james taylor via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2022 7:20 PM
To: Stus-List
Cc: james taylor
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

 

Another question that haven't seen in this discussion. What battery charger do 
you need for this type of battery? My charger has setting for flooded, sealed 
and AGM, and I haven't seen many chargers that mention LiFePO4settings. 

 

 

On Fri, May 27, 2022 at 7:19 PM Joe Della Barba via CnC-List 
 wrote:

Quick battery facts:

 

An ideal battery is like a water tank. It holds X amount, can be filled as fast 
as you want or as slow as you want, and likewise for emptying the water. No 
matter what, you get 10 gallons out of a 10 gallon tank.

How all types of lead-acid batteries fail in being perfect:

1.  Peukert Effect – A 200 amp hour battery might last 250 hours if only 
drawing one amp and maybe one hour at 100 amps.
2.  Charge efficiency – Not all the electricity that goes in gets stored, 
some amount is converted to heat, off gassing, etc.
3.  Cycle life – A 200 amp hour battery eventually declines to a lot less 
than 200 and then is dead. Battery manufacturers supply graphs of 
depth-of-discharge vs. lifespan of the battery. A battery discharged to 80% and 
recharged carefully to 100% might last well over a thousand cycles. One 
discharged to 0% and recharged might last 10 or 20 cycles or maybe 1 cycle if 
it was a starting battery. Most cruisers figure on 50% depth-of-discharge as 
the limit for a good lifespan.

 

What this means is a 200ah lead battery is good for 100ah if you want it to 
last AND have a way to get it all the way back to 100% easily. Many people 
figure on cycling between 50% and 90% or so. The fuller a lead battery gets, 
the slower it charges.

 

In contrast, a lithium battery is a lot closer to the ideal. The charge 
efficiency is high, the Peukert Effect doesn’t really exist for them, you can 
charge them fast if needed, and their lifespan is good to 80% discharge. A 
200ah lithium battery is good for 160ah useable capacity, not the less than 100 
that is the practical useable capacity of lead battery of the same nominal 
rating.

 

 

Joe Della Barba

Coquina C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA

 

 

 

 

 

From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List  
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2022 4:27 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Bill Coleman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

 

So Dave, would the SOK Battery 206Ah 12v LiFePO4 Battery Solar Battery be an 
equivalent swap-out for a Lifeline GPL-8DA 12 V 255 AH Battery?

This is a little confusing  (and intimidating) for the non-initiated . . 

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: Dreuge via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 3:24 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Dreuge
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

 

Dave,

 

As I mentioned in previously replies to the list, it no longer makes any sense 
to buy lead acid batteries(i.e. flooded, gel, or AGM)  for a house bank.   For 
lead acid, the AH capacity is highly dependent on the current load due to the 
Peukert Effect.   Deep cycle lead acid batteries are rated at C/20.  For a 
100AH rated battery, this is 100AH/20H = 5A.   This is often called the 20H 
rate, i.e.  5A * 20H = 100AH. If the actual load is 20A, then the same 
100AH rated lead acid battery would only provide 60AH (or 10AH at 100A).  And 
worse, one should only use 50% of a lead acid battery’s capacity as going below 
50% substantially degrades the battery lifetime.   This means that a 100AH lead 
acid battery has an effective 50AH @ 5A (or 30AH @ 20A).  

 

Let’s assume a 100AH lead acid battery price of $264 (the average of the Amazon 
prices), then 2 batteries would cost one $528 and one would get an effective 
100AH (50%*200AH) at 5A loads.  

 

Now,  the price of LiFePO4 batteries have come way down in the last few years 
and their performance and lifetimes are a magnitude better.   A 100AH LiFePO4 
battery is typically rated at 1C.  That is they can deliver 100AH at 100A for 
1H(or 5A at 20H or 20A at 5H).  They can also charge at amps up to 100A which 
is impossible for a lead acid battery.   And LiFePO4 batteries live 5 times 
longer.  That is,  one would expect to replace 5 sets of lead acid batteries 
before replacing a LiFePO4 battery.Yes, LiFePO4 batteries are more complex 
as they require a battery management system (i.e. BMS), but there are companies 
which provide 12V drop in replacements with the BMS built internal to the 
battery.   Top companies like Battle Born sell a 100AH LiFePO4 for $874 and 
provide a 10yr warranty.   Renogy sells a 100AH LiFePO4 for $765.   A company, 
CurrentConnected.com, sells a SOK 100AH LiFePO4 battery for $569 and it has

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[james taylor via CnC-List]

Another question that haven't seen in this discussion. What battery charger
do you need for this type of battery? My charger has setting for flooded,
sealed and AGM, and I haven't seen many chargers that mention LiFePO4settings.



On Fri, May 27, 2022 at 7:19 PM Joe Della Barba via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Quick battery facts:
>
>
>
> An ideal battery is like a water tank. It holds X amount, can be filled as
> fast as you want or as slow as you want, and likewise for emptying the
> water. No matter what, you get 10 gallons out of a 10 gallon tank.
>
> How all types of lead-acid batteries fail in being perfect:
>
>1. Peukert Effect – A 200 amp hour battery might last 250 hours if
>only drawing one amp and maybe one hour at 100 amps.
>2. Charge efficiency – Not all the electricity that goes in gets
>stored, some amount is converted to heat, off gassing, etc.
>3. Cycle life – A 200 amp hour battery eventually declines to a lot
>less than 200 and then is dead. Battery manufacturers supply graphs of
>depth-of-discharge vs. lifespan of the battery. A battery discharged to 80%
>and recharged carefully to 100% might last well over a thousand cycles. One
>discharged to 0% and recharged might last 10 or 20 cycles or maybe 1 cycle
>if it was a starting battery. Most cruisers figure on 50%
>depth-of-discharge as the limit for a good lifespan.
>
>
>
> What this means is a 200ah lead battery is good for 100ah if you want it
> to last AND have a way to get it all the way back to 100% easily. Many
> people figure on cycling between 50% and 90% or so. The fuller a lead
> battery gets, the slower it charges.
>
>
>
> In contrast, a lithium battery is a lot closer to the ideal. The charge
> efficiency is high, the Peukert Effect doesn’t really exist for them, you
> can charge them fast if needed, and their lifespan is good to 80%
> discharge. A 200ah lithium battery is good for 160ah useable capacity, not
> the less than 100 that is the practical useable capacity of lead battery of
> the same nominal rating.
>
>
>
>
>
> Joe Della Barba
>
> Coquina C 35 MK I
>
> Kent Island MD USA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Bill Coleman via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* Friday, May 27, 2022 4:27 PM
> *To:* 'Stus-List' 
> *Cc:* Bill Coleman 
> *Subject:* Stus-List Re: Batteries again
>
>
>
> So Dave, would the SOK Battery 206Ah 12v LiFePO4 Battery Solar Battery be
> an equivalent swap-out for a Lifeline GPL-8DA 12 V 255 AH Battery?
>
> This is a little confusing  (and intimidating) for the non-initiated . .
>
>
>
>
>
> Bill Coleman
>
> Entrada, Erie, PA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Dreuge via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> ]
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 26, 2022 3:24 PM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* Dreuge
> *Subject:* Stus-List Re: Batteries again
>
>
>
> Dave,
>
>
>
> As I mentioned in previously replies to the list, it no longer makes any
> sense to buy lead acid batteries(i.e. flooded, gel, or AGM)  for a house
> bank.   For lead acid, the AH capacity is highly dependent on the current
> load due to the Peukert Effect.   Deep cycle lead acid batteries are rated
> at C/20.  For a 100AH rated battery, this is 100AH/20H = 5A.   This is
> often called the 20H rate, i.e.  5A * 20H = 100AH. If the actual load
> is 20A, then the same 100AH rated lead acid battery would only provide 60AH
> (or 10AH at 100A).  And worse, one should only use 50% of a lead acid
> battery’s capacity as going below 50% substantially degrades the battery
> lifetime.   This means that a 100AH lead acid battery has an effective 50AH
> @ 5A (or 30AH @ 20A).
>
>
>
> Let’s assume a 100AH lead acid battery price of $264 (the average of the
> Amazon prices), then 2 batteries would cost one $528 and one would get an
> effective 100AH (50%*200AH) at 5A loads.
>
>
>
> Now,  the price of LiFePO4 batteries have come way down in the last few
> years and their performance and lifetimes are a magnitude better.   A 100AH
> LiFePO4 battery is typically rated at 1C.  That is they can deliver 100AH
> at 100A for 1H(or 5A at 20H or 20A at 5H).  They can also charge at amps up
> to 100A which is impossible for a lead acid battery.   And LiFePO4
> batteries live 5 times longer.  That is,  one would expect to replace 5
> sets of lead acid batteries before replacing a LiFePO4 battery.Yes,
> LiFePO4 batteries are more complex as they require a battery management
> system (i.e. BMS), but there are companies which provide 12V drop in
> replacements with the BMS built internal to the battery.   Top companies
> like Battle Born sell a 

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

The battery you indicated appears not to be an AGM.  Flooded batteries in 
general are much cheaper than the AGM.  My battery compartment is not easily 
accessible, so having to maintain the water level in the battery,  worries 
about operating it while healed plus the potential danger of spills makes me 
much happier to spend the extra $$$ for AGM batteries.  One less thing to worry 
about.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On May 30, 2022, at 11:57 PM, Tom Buscaglia via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have used Dyno batteries without issue.  They cost less than 1/2.  Am I 
> missing something?
> 
> https://www.fisheriessupply.com/dyno-battery-heavy-duty-m30-marine-batteries/m30hh
>  
> <https://www.fisheriessupply.com/dyno-battery-heavy-duty-m30-marine-batteries/m30hh>
> 
> Tom Buscaglia
> S/V Alera 
> 1990 C 37+/40
> Vashon WA
> P 206.463.9200
> C 305.409.3660
> 
> 
>> On May 30, 2022, at 9:30 AM, Korbey Hunt via CnC-List > <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I highly recommend Lifeline group 31
>> 
>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
>> From: Joe Della Barba via CnC-List > <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 9:40:31 AM
>> To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
>> Cc: j...@dellabarba.com <mailto:j...@dellabarba.com> > <mailto:j...@dellabarba.com>>
>> Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again
>>  
>> There is a lot of reason to be concerned about off brands. Pretty much all 
>> cycling batteries of the same size will be about the same AH rating. There 
>> is no magic in lead batteries, the AH per pound is pretty consistent.  What 
>> matters *hugely* is the number of cycles that they can endure before being 
>> trashed. The various cheap Chinese imports are highly variable to say the 
>> least, their reviews are all over the place. Lifeline is usually considered 
>> the best AGM maker.
>> FYI – Deka makes all the West Marine AGMs, you might call around your local 
>> battery shop and see what they charge. They are worse than Lifelines, but if 
>> they crap out after a week at least you can return them to the store 
>> Joe Della Barba
>> Coquina C 35 MK I
>> Kent Island MD USA
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> From: David Knecht via CnC-List > <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> 
>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 11:25 AM
>> To: CnC CnC discussion list > <mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com>>
>> Cc: David Knecht mailto:davidakne...@gmail.com>>
>> Subject: Stus-List Batteries again
>>  
>> I have been following the battery discussion and have a question.  I need to 
>> replace my two 9 year old AGM batteries this season.  I have separate start 
>> and house batteries which can be combined if needed.  I don’t have large 
>> power needs (electronics, autopilot and fridge when cruising).  I have been 
>> reading and researching this and I am unsure of what to purchase.  From what 
>> I have read, AH is the important number to focus on.  Last time, I got 
>> Lifeline AGM group 27 from Defender.  Defender has 3 different group 27 
>> batteries
>> Powertech rated at 92AH  which cost about $330
>> Lifeline  rated at 100AH for 432
>> Northstar   rated at 92AH for 457
>>   
>> From Amazon, I can get a VMAX group 27 with 100AH for $289 or a Universal 
>> with 110 AH for $239.  Is there any reason to be concerned about less known 
>> (to me) brands from Amazon or does it make sense to just focus on the 
>> numbers?  Thanks- Dave  
>>  
>> S/V Aries
>> 1990 C 34+
>> New London, CT
>> 
>> 

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Tom Buscaglia via CnC-List]

I have used Dyno batteries without issue.  They cost less than 1/2.  Am I 
missing something?

https://www.fisheriessupply.com/dyno-battery-heavy-duty-m30-marine-batteries/m30hh

Tom Buscaglia
S/V Alera 
1990 C 37+/40
Vashon WA
P 206.463.9200
C 305.409.3660


> On May 30, 2022, at 9:30 AM, Korbey Hunt via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> I highly recommend Lifeline group 31
> 
> Get Outlook for Android
> From: Joe Della Barba via CnC-List 
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 9:40:31 AM
> To: 'Stus-List' 
> Cc: j...@dellabarba.com 
> Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again
>  
> There is a lot of reason to be concerned about off brands. Pretty much all 
> cycling batteries of the same size will be about the same AH rating. There is 
> no magic in lead batteries, the AH per pound is pretty consistent.  What 
> matters *hugely* is the number of cycles that they can endure before being 
> trashed. The various cheap Chinese imports are highly variable to say the 
> least, their reviews are all over the place. Lifeline is usually considered 
> the best AGM maker.
> FYI – Deka makes all the West Marine AGMs, you might call around your local 
> battery shop and see what they charge. They are worse than Lifelines, but if 
> they crap out after a week at least you can return them to the store 
> Joe Della Barba
> Coquina C 35 MK I
> Kent Island MD USA
>  
>  
>  
> From: David Knecht via CnC-List  
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 11:25 AM
> To: CnC CnC discussion list 
> Cc: David Knecht 
> Subject: Stus-List Batteries again
>  
> I have been following the battery discussion and have a question.  I need to 
> replace my two 9 year old AGM batteries this season.  I have separate start 
> and house batteries which can be combined if needed.  I don’t have large 
> power needs (electronics, autopilot and fridge when cruising).  I have been 
> reading and researching this and I am unsure of what to purchase.  From what 
> I have read, AH is the important number to focus on.  Last time, I got 
> Lifeline AGM group 27 from Defender.  Defender has 3 different group 27 
> batteries
> Powertech rated at 92AH  which cost about $330
> Lifeline  rated at 100AH for 432
> Northstar   rated at 92AH for 457
>   
> From Amazon, I can get a VMAX group 27 with 100AH for $289 or a Universal 
> with 110 AH for $239.  Is there any reason to be concerned about less known 
> (to me) brands from Amazon or does it make sense to just focus on the 
> numbers?  Thanks- Dave  
>  
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
>  

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Joe Della Barba via CnC-List]

Quick battery facts:

 

An ideal battery is like a water tank. It holds X amount, can be filled as fast 
as you want or as slow as you want, and likewise for emptying the water. No 
matter what, you get 10 gallons out of a 10 gallon tank.

How all types of lead-acid batteries fail in being perfect:

1.  Peukert Effect – A 200 amp hour battery might last 250 hours if only 
drawing one amp and maybe one hour at 100 amps.
2.  Charge efficiency – Not all the electricity that goes in gets stored, 
some amount is converted to heat, off gassing, etc.
3.  Cycle life – A 200 amp hour battery eventually declines to a lot less 
than 200 and then is dead. Battery manufacturers supply graphs of 
depth-of-discharge vs. lifespan of the battery. A battery discharged to 80% and 
recharged carefully to 100% might last well over a thousand cycles. One 
discharged to 0% and recharged might last 10 or 20 cycles or maybe 1 cycle if 
it was a starting battery. Most cruisers figure on 50% depth-of-discharge as 
the limit for a good lifespan.

 

What this means is a 200ah lead battery is good for 100ah if you want it to 
last AND have a way to get it all the way back to 100% easily. Many people 
figure on cycling between 50% and 90% or so. The fuller a lead battery gets, 
the slower it charges.

 

In contrast, a lithium battery is a lot closer to the ideal. The charge 
efficiency is high, the Peukert Effect doesn’t really exist for them, you can 
charge them fast if needed, and their lifespan is good to 80% discharge. A 
200ah lithium battery is good for 160ah useable capacity, not the less than 100 
that is the practical useable capacity of lead battery of the same nominal 
rating.

 

 

Joe Della Barba

Coquina C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA

 

 

 

 

 

From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List  
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2022 4:27 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Bill Coleman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

 

So Dave, would the SOK Battery 206Ah 12v LiFePO4 Battery Solar Battery be an 
equivalent swap-out for a Lifeline GPL-8DA 12 V 255 AH Battery?

This is a little confusing  (and intimidating) for the non-initiated . . 

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: Dreuge via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 3:24 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: Dreuge
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

 

Dave,

 

As I mentioned in previously replies to the list, it no longer makes any sense 
to buy lead acid batteries(i.e. flooded, gel, or AGM)  for a house bank.   For 
lead acid, the AH capacity is highly dependent on the current load due to the 
Peukert Effect.   Deep cycle lead acid batteries are rated at C/20.  For a 
100AH rated battery, this is 100AH/20H = 5A.   This is often called the 20H 
rate, i.e.  5A * 20H = 100AH. If the actual load is 20A, then the same 
100AH rated lead acid battery would only provide 60AH (or 10AH at 100A).  And 
worse, one should only use 50% of a lead acid battery’s capacity as going below 
50% substantially degrades the battery lifetime.   This means that a 100AH lead 
acid battery has an effective 50AH @ 5A (or 30AH @ 20A).  

 

Let’s assume a 100AH lead acid battery price of $264 (the average of the Amazon 
prices), then 2 batteries would cost one $528 and one would get an effective 
100AH (50%*200AH) at 5A loads.  

 

Now,  the price of LiFePO4 batteries have come way down in the last few years 
and their performance and lifetimes are a magnitude better.   A 100AH LiFePO4 
battery is typically rated at 1C.  That is they can deliver 100AH at 100A for 
1H(or 5A at 20H or 20A at 5H).  They can also charge at amps up to 100A which 
is impossible for a lead acid battery.   And LiFePO4 batteries live 5 times 
longer.  That is,  one would expect to replace 5 sets of lead acid batteries 
before replacing a LiFePO4 battery.Yes, LiFePO4 batteries are more complex 
as they require a battery management system (i.e. BMS), but there are companies 
which provide 12V drop in replacements with the BMS built internal to the 
battery.   Top companies like Battle Born sell a 100AH LiFePO4 for $874 and 
provide a 10yr warranty.   Renogy sells a 100AH LiFePO4 for $765.   A company, 
CurrentConnected.com <http://CurrentConnected.com> , sells a SOK 100AH LiFePO4 
battery for $569 and it has a 10 yr warranty!   YouTuber Will Prowse rates the 
SOK as the best value LiFePO4 12V drop in replacement (see 
https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/lithium-batteries.html).  There are a 
plethora of cheaper 100AH LiFePO4 batteries that can be found on Amazon, Ebay, 
AliExpres, …, but one gets little service and limited warrantees,  so I would 
recommend avoiding these.

 

Rather than buying 2 100AH lead acid batteries for $528 at a total weight of 
140lbs(70lbs each) , one could just buy 1 100AH LiFePO4 for $569 weighing only 
28lbs and get a better performing battery.  That is basically the same price.   
If one takes 

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

So Dave, would the SOK Battery 206Ah 12v LiFePO4 Battery Solar Battery be an 
equivalent swap-out for a Lifeline GPL-8DA 12 V 255 AH Battery?

This is a little confusing  (and intimidating) for the non-initiated . . 

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: Dreuge via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 3:24 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Dreuge
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

 

Dave,

 

As I mentioned in previously replies to the list, it no longer makes any sense 
to buy lead acid batteries(i.e. flooded, gel, or AGM)  for a house bank.   For 
lead acid, the AH capacity is highly dependent on the current load due to the 
Peukert Effect.   Deep cycle lead acid batteries are rated at C/20.  For a 
100AH rated battery, this is 100AH/20H = 5A.   This is often called the 20H 
rate, i.e.  5A * 20H = 100AH. If the actual load is 20A, then the same 
100AH rated lead acid battery would only provide 60AH (or 10AH at 100A).  And 
worse, one should only use 50% of a lead acid battery’s capacity as going below 
50% substantially degrades the battery lifetime.   This means that a 100AH lead 
acid battery has an effective 50AH @ 5A (or 30AH @ 20A).  

 

Let’s assume a 100AH lead acid battery price of $264 (the average of the Amazon 
prices), then 2 batteries would cost one $528 and one would get an effective 
100AH (50%*200AH) at 5A loads.  

 

Now,  the price of LiFePO4 batteries have come way down in the last few years 
and their performance and lifetimes are a magnitude better.   A 100AH LiFePO4 
battery is typically rated at 1C.  That is they can deliver 100AH at 100A for 
1H(or 5A at 20H or 20A at 5H).  They can also charge at amps up to 100A which 
is impossible for a lead acid battery.   And LiFePO4 batteries live 5 times 
longer.  That is,  one would expect to replace 5 sets of lead acid batteries 
before replacing a LiFePO4 battery.Yes, LiFePO4 batteries are more complex 
as they require a battery management system (i.e. BMS), but there are companies 
which provide 12V drop in replacements with the BMS built internal to the 
battery.   Top companies like Battle Born sell a 100AH LiFePO4 for $874 and 
provide a 10yr warranty.   Renogy sells a 100AH LiFePO4 for $765.   A company, 
CurrentConnected.com, sells a SOK 100AH LiFePO4 battery for $569 and it has a 
10 yr warranty!   YouTuber Will Prowse rates the SOK as the best value LiFePO4 
12V drop in replacement (see 
https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/lithium-batteries.html).  There are a 
plethora of cheaper 100AH LiFePO4 batteries that can be found on Amazon, Ebay, 
AliExpres, …, but one gets little service and limited warrantees,  so I would 
recommend avoiding these.

 

Rather than buying 2 100AH lead acid batteries for $528 at a total weight of 
140lbs(70lbs each) , one could just buy 1 100AH LiFePO4 for $569 weighing only 
28lbs and get a better performing battery.  That is basically the same price.   
If one takes into account the increased lifetime, the saving is HUGE!  

 

If one builds their own DIY LiFePO4 battery, the savings is much much greater.  
 Last year I replaced 2 100AH lead acid batteries with one DIY 560AH LiFePO4 
battery for a little over $900 (see my blog link below).  The DIY LiFePO4 
battery occupies the same location and physical space as the previous 2 lead 
acid batteries, it weighs much less (95 lbs vs 125 lbs), but has 5 TIMES the 
capacity.

 

I recently gave a talk on off-grid solar systems a local  amateur radio society 
meeting.  The discuss the battery as the heart of the system and make the case 
for LiFePO4 batteries.  My slides from the talk are available on my blog:

 


https://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/2021/10/solar-off-grid-system.html

 

 

Also, the details of my DIY 560AH LiFePO4 are posted at the link below which 
includes details about alternator charging. 

 


https://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/2021/06/adding-new-lifepo4-to-house-battery.html

 

 

 

 

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Dreuge via CnC-List]

Matthew,

I did not mention this in the last email, but I still use a lead acid battery 
for a dedicated start battery.   I have my alternator connected directly to the 
start battery and I also use a battery combiner for charging the house bank.  
This was my simple solution for protecting the alternator from BMS disconnects, 
and since I already had a good start battery and a battery combiner, this was a 
no-cost safe LiFePO4 charging solution.  

I do have the ability to use the LiFePO4 battery as a start back up.  I would 
expect LiFePO4 batteries to perform fine as starting batteries.  If anything, 
the constant 13.2V load voltage would keep your engine's starter happy.  Low 
voltage drops are terrible for electric motors (i.e. starters and anchor 
windlasses).

I have heard of some sailors using a LiFePO4 motorcycle battery for starting 
diesel engines.  These batteries weigh about 2 lbs and while the capacity may 
only be ~5AH, they claim cold cranking amps (CCA ) of over 300A.  I have little 
interest and am somewhat cautious about these claims, but at $60 they are cheap 
enough to test out and many have pretty good reviews.  Check out the 5AH TPE 
Lithium Motorcycle Battery on Amazon.   Since most marine diesel starters draw 
less than 150A, 5AH would amount to 5AH/150A*60m/H = 2 continuous minutes of 
cranking. That’s a lot of cranking and comparable to that of a 100AH rated lead 
acid battery (recall that a C/20 rated 100AH lead acid battery effectively 
provides only 10AH at 100A discharge load).  

I don’t have the interest in these for a start battery, but we do have some 
club racers who are suspected of removing every other screw and stripping down 
the boat to save on weight, so replacing 70 lbs with 2 lbs seems a bit starter. 


Paul


-
Paul E.
1981 C Landfall 38 
S/V Johanna Rose
Fort Walton Beach, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/



> 
>> On May 26, 2022, at 1:03 PM, Matthew via CnC-List > <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> This is excellent information.  Thanks, Paul.
>>  
>> One of the reasons I have hung on to my lead acid house batteries is that my 
>> charger has settings for AGM, lead, and maybe one other, but all three 
>> batteries must be of the same type.  The lead acid starting battery is 
>> isolated (combined for charging) has good cranking amps, so I have continued 
>> to use lead acid for the house.  How well do LiFePO4 batteries perform as 
>> starting batteries? 
>>  
>> From: Dreuge via CnC-List > <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> 
>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 3:24 PM
>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
>> Cc: Dreuge mailto:dre...@gmail.com>>
>> Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again
>>  
>> Dave,
>>  
>> As I mentioned in previously replies to the list, it no longer makes any 
>> sense to buy lead acid batteries(i.e. flooded, gel, or AGM)  for a house 
>> bank.   For lead acid, the AH capacity is highly dependent on the current 
>> load due to the Peukert Effect.   Deep cycle lead acid batteries are rated 
>> at C/20.  For a 100AH rated battery, this is 100AH/20H = 5A.   This is often 
>> called the 20H rate, i.e.  5A * 20H = 100AH. If the actual load is 20A, 
>> then the same 100AH rated lead acid battery would only provide 60AH (or 10AH 
>> at 100A).  And worse, one should only use 50% of a lead acid battery’s 
>> capacity as going below 50% substantially degrades the battery lifetime.   
>> This means that a 100AH lead acid battery has an effective 50AH @ 5A (or 
>> 30AH @ 20A).  
>>  
>> Let’s assume a 100AH lead acid battery price of $264 (the average of the 
>> Amazon prices), then 2 batteries would cost one $528 and one would get an 
>> effective 100AH (50%*200AH) at 5A loads.  
>>  
>> Now,  the price of LiFePO4 batteries have come way down in the last few 
>> years and their performance and lifetimes are a magnitude better.   A 100AH 
>> LiFePO4 battery is typically rated at 1C.  That is they can deliver 100AH at 
>> 100A for 1H(or 5A at 20H or 20A at 5H).  They can also charge at amps up to 
>> 100A which is impossible for a lead acid battery.   And LiFePO4 batteries 
>> live 5 times longer.  That is,  one would expect to replace 5 sets of lead 
>> acid batteries before replacing a LiFePO4 battery.Yes, LiFePO4 batteries 
>> are more complex as they require a battery management system (i.e. BMS), but 
>> there are companies which provide 12V drop in replacements with the BMS 
>> built internal to the battery.   Top companies like Battle Born sell a 100AH 
>> LiFePO4 for $874 and provide a 10yr warranty.   Renogy sells a 100AH LiFePO4 
>> for $765.   A company, CurrentConnected.com

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Korbey Hunt via CnC-List]

I highly recommend Lifeline group 31

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>

From: Joe Della Barba via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 9:40:31 AM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: j...@dellabarba.com 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again


There is a lot of reason to be concerned about off brands. Pretty much all 
cycling batteries of the same size will be about the same AH rating. There is 
no magic in lead batteries, the AH per pound is pretty consistent.  What 
matters *hugely* is the number of cycles that they can endure before being 
trashed. The various cheap Chinese imports are highly variable to say the 
least, their reviews are all over the place. Lifeline is usually considered the 
best AGM maker.

FYI – Deka makes all the West Marine AGMs, you might call around your local 
battery shop and see what they charge. They are worse than Lifelines, but if 
they crap out after a week at least you can return them to the store ??

Joe Della Barba

Coquina C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA







From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 11:25 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: Stus-List Batteries again



I have been following the battery discussion and have a question.  I need to 
replace my two 9 year old AGM batteries this season.  I have separate start and 
house batteries which can be combined if needed.  I don’t have large power 
needs (electronics, autopilot and fridge when cruising).  I have been reading 
and researching this and I am unsure of what to purchase.  From what I have 
read, AH is the important number to focus on.  Last time, I got Lifeline AGM 
group 27 from Defender.  Defender has 3 different group 27 batteries

Powertech rated at 92AH  which cost about $330

Lifeline  rated at 100AH for 432

Northstar   rated at 92AH for 457



>From Amazon, I can get a VMAX group 27 with 100AH for $289 or a Universal with 
>110 AH for $239.  Is there any reason to be concerned about less known (to me) 
>brands from Amazon or does it make sense to just focus on the numbers?  
>Thanks- Dave



S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT

[cid:image001.png@01D870F4.42332990]

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Dave S via CnC-List]

Couldn’t agree more on LiFePO for the house bank.  
My journey abd decision criteria here:

https://cncwindstar.blogspot.com/search/label/Solar%20and%20Batteries?m=1

Dave 33-2 windstar


Sent from my iPhone

> On May 26, 2022, at 1:03 PM, Matthew via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> This is excellent information.  Thanks, Paul.
>  
> One of the reasons I have hung on to my lead acid house batteries is that my 
> charger has settings for AGM, lead, and maybe one other, but all three 
> batteries must be of the same type.  The lead acid starting battery is 
> isolated (combined for charging) has good cranking amps, so I have continued 
> to use lead acid for the house.  How well do LiFePO4 batteries perform as 
> starting batteries?
>  
> From: Dreuge via CnC-List  
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 3:24 PM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: Dreuge 
> Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again
>  
> Dave,
>  
> As I mentioned in previously replies to the list, it no longer makes any 
> sense to buy lead acid batteries(i.e. flooded, gel, or AGM)  for a house 
> bank.   For lead acid, the AH capacity is highly dependent on the current 
> load due to the Peukert Effect.   Deep cycle lead acid batteries are rated at 
> C/20.  For a 100AH rated battery, this is 100AH/20H = 5A.   This is often 
> called the 20H rate, i.e.  5A * 20H = 100AH. If the actual load is 20A, 
> then the same 100AH rated lead acid battery would only provide 60AH (or 10AH 
> at 100A).  And worse, one should only use 50% of a lead acid battery’s 
> capacity as going below 50% substantially degrades the battery lifetime.   
> This means that a 100AH lead acid battery has an effective 50AH @ 5A (or 30AH 
> @ 20A).  
>  
> Let’s assume a 100AH lead acid battery price of $264 (the average of the 
> Amazon prices), then 2 batteries would cost one $528 and one would get an 
> effective 100AH (50%*200AH) at 5A loads.  
>  
> Now,  the price of LiFePO4 batteries have come way down in the last few years 
> and their performance and lifetimes are a magnitude better.   A 100AH LiFePO4 
> battery is typically rated at 1C.  That is they can deliver 100AH at 100A for 
> 1H(or 5A at 20H or 20A at 5H).  They can also charge at amps up to 100A which 
> is impossible for a lead acid battery.   And LiFePO4 batteries live 5 times 
> longer.  That is,  one would expect to replace 5 sets of lead acid batteries 
> before replacing a LiFePO4 battery.Yes, LiFePO4 batteries are more 
> complex as they require a battery management system (i.e. BMS), but there are 
> companies which provide 12V drop in replacements with the BMS built internal 
> to the battery.   Top companies like Battle Born sell a 100AH LiFePO4 for 
> $874 and provide a 10yr warranty.   Renogy sells a 100AH LiFePO4 for $765.   
> A company, CurrentConnected.com, sells a SOK 100AH LiFePO4 battery for $569 
> and it has a 10 yr warranty!   YouTuber Will Prowse rates the SOK as the best 
> value LiFePO4 12V drop in replacement (see 
> https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/lithium-batteries.html).  There are a 
> plethora of cheaper 100AH LiFePO4 batteries that can be found on Amazon, 
> Ebay, AliExpres, …, but one gets little service and limited warrantees,  so I 
> would recommend avoiding these.
>  
> Rather than buying 2 100AH lead acid batteries for $528 at a total weight of 
> 140lbs(70lbs each) , one could just buy 1 100AH LiFePO4 for $569 weighing 
> only 28lbs and get a better performing battery.  That is basically the same 
> price.   If one takes into account the increased lifetime, the saving is 
> HUGE!  
>  
> If one builds their own DIY LiFePO4 battery, the savings is much much 
> greater.   Last year I replaced 2 100AH lead acid batteries with one DIY 
> 560AH LiFePO4 battery for a little over $900 (see my blog link below).  The 
> DIY LiFePO4 battery occupies the same location and physical space as the 
> previous 2 lead acid batteries, it weighs much less (95 lbs vs 125 lbs), but 
> has 5 TIMES the capacity.
>  
> I recently gave a talk on off-grid solar systems a local  amateur radio 
> society meeting.  The discuss the battery as the heart of the system and make 
> the case for LiFePO4 batteries.  My slides from the talk are available on my 
> blog:
>  
> 
> https://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/2021/10/solar-off-grid-system.html
>  
>  
> Also, the details of my DIY 560AH LiFePO4 are posted at the link below which 
> includes details about alternator charging. 
>  
> 
> https://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/2021/06/adding-new-lifepo4-to-house-battery.html
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> -
> Paul E.
> 1981 C Landfall 38 
> S/V Johanna Rose
> Fort Walton Beach, FL
>  
> http://svjohannaros

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Matthew via CnC-List]

This is excellent information.  Thanks, Paul.

 

One of the reasons I have hung on to my lead acid house batteries is that my 
charger has settings for AGM, lead, and maybe one other, but all three 
batteries must be of the same type.  The lead acid starting battery is isolated 
(combined for charging) has good cranking amps, so I have continued to use lead 
acid for the house.  How well do LiFePO4 batteries perform as starting 
batteries? 

 

From: Dreuge via CnC-List  
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 3:24 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Dreuge 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

 

Dave,

 

As I mentioned in previously replies to the list, it no longer makes any sense 
to buy lead acid batteries(i.e. flooded, gel, or AGM)  for a house bank.   For 
lead acid, the AH capacity is highly dependent on the current load due to the 
Peukert Effect.   Deep cycle lead acid batteries are rated at C/20.  For a 
100AH rated battery, this is 100AH/20H = 5A.   This is often called the 20H 
rate, i.e.  5A * 20H = 100AH. If the actual load is 20A, then the same 
100AH rated lead acid battery would only provide 60AH (or 10AH at 100A).  And 
worse, one should only use 50% of a lead acid battery’s capacity as going below 
50% substantially degrades the battery lifetime.   This means that a 100AH lead 
acid battery has an effective 50AH @ 5A (or 30AH @ 20A).  

 

Let’s assume a 100AH lead acid battery price of $264 (the average of the Amazon 
prices), then 2 batteries would cost one $528 and one would get an effective 
100AH (50%*200AH) at 5A loads.  

 

Now,  the price of LiFePO4 batteries have come way down in the last few years 
and their performance and lifetimes are a magnitude better.   A 100AH LiFePO4 
battery is typically rated at 1C.  That is they can deliver 100AH at 100A for 
1H(or 5A at 20H or 20A at 5H).  They can also charge at amps up to 100A which 
is impossible for a lead acid battery.   And LiFePO4 batteries live 5 times 
longer.  That is,  one would expect to replace 5 sets of lead acid batteries 
before replacing a LiFePO4 battery.Yes, LiFePO4 batteries are more complex 
as they require a battery management system (i.e. BMS), but there are companies 
which provide 12V drop in replacements with the BMS built internal to the 
battery.   Top companies like Battle Born sell a 100AH LiFePO4 for $874 and 
provide a 10yr warranty.   Renogy sells a 100AH LiFePO4 for $765.   A company, 
CurrentConnected.com <http://CurrentConnected.com> , sells a SOK 100AH LiFePO4 
battery for $569 and it has a 10 yr warranty!   YouTuber Will Prowse rates the 
SOK as the best value LiFePO4 12V drop in replacement (see 
https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/lithium-batteries.html).  There are a 
plethora of cheaper 100AH LiFePO4 batteries that can be found on Amazon, Ebay, 
AliExpres, …, but one gets little service and limited warrantees,  so I would 
recommend avoiding these.

 

Rather than buying 2 100AH lead acid batteries for $528 at a total weight of 
140lbs(70lbs each) , one could just buy 1 100AH LiFePO4 for $569 weighing only 
28lbs and get a better performing battery.  That is basically the same price.   
If one takes into account the increased lifetime, the saving is HUGE!  

 

If one builds their own DIY LiFePO4 battery, the savings is much much greater.  
 Last year I replaced 2 100AH lead acid batteries with one DIY 560AH LiFePO4 
battery for a little over $900 (see my blog link below).  The DIY LiFePO4 
battery occupies the same location and physical space as the previous 2 lead 
acid batteries, it weighs much less (95 lbs vs 125 lbs), but has 5 TIMES the 
capacity.

 

I recently gave a talk on off-grid solar systems a local  amateur radio society 
meeting.  The discuss the battery as the heart of the system and make the case 
for LiFePO4 batteries.  My slides from the talk are available on my blog:

 


https://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/2021/10/solar-off-grid-system.html

 

 

Also, the details of my DIY 560AH LiFePO4 are posted at the link below which 
includes details about alternator charging. 

 


https://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/2021/06/adding-new-lifepo4-to-house-battery.html

 

 

 

 

 

-
Paul E.

1981 C Landfall 38 
S/V Johanna Rose
Fort Walton Beach, FL

 

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/





On May 26, 2022, at 11:24 AM, David Knecht via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

 

I have been following the battery discussion and have a question.  I need to 
replace my two 9 year old AGM batteries this season.  I have separate start and 
house batteries which can be combined if needed.  I don’t have large power 
needs (electronics, autopilot and fridge when cruising).  I have been reading 
and researching this and I am unsure of what to purchase.  From what I have 
read, AH is the important number to focus on.  Last time, I got Lifeline AGM 
group 27 from Defender.  Defender has 3 different group 27 batteries

Powertech r

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Dreuge via CnC-List]

Dave,

As I mentioned in previously replies to the list, it no longer makes any sense 
to buy lead acid batteries(i.e. flooded, gel, or AGM)  for a house bank.   For 
lead acid, the AH capacity is highly dependent on the current load due to the 
Peukert Effect.   Deep cycle lead acid batteries are rated at C/20.  For a 
100AH rated battery, this is 100AH/20H = 5A.   This is often called the 20H 
rate, i.e.  5A * 20H = 100AH. If the actual load is 20A, then the same 
100AH rated lead acid battery would only provide 60AH (or 10AH at 100A).  And 
worse, one should only use 50% of a lead acid battery’s capacity as going below 
50% substantially degrades the battery lifetime.   This means that a 100AH lead 
acid battery has an effective 50AH @ 5A (or 30AH @ 20A).  

Let’s assume a 100AH lead acid battery price of $264 (the average of the Amazon 
prices), then 2 batteries would cost one $528 and one would get an effective 
100AH (50%*200AH) at 5A loads.  

Now,  the price of LiFePO4 batteries have come way down in the last few years 
and their performance and lifetimes are a magnitude better.   A 100AH LiFePO4 
battery is typically rated at 1C.  That is they can deliver 100AH at 100A for 
1H(or 5A at 20H or 20A at 5H).  They can also charge at amps up to 100A which 
is impossible for a lead acid battery.   And LiFePO4 batteries live 5 times 
longer.  That is,  one would expect to replace 5 sets of lead acid batteries 
before replacing a LiFePO4 battery.Yes, LiFePO4 batteries are more complex 
as they require a battery management system (i.e. BMS), but there are companies 
which provide 12V drop in replacements with the BMS built internal to the 
battery.   Top companies like Battle Born sell a 100AH LiFePO4 for $874 and 
provide a 10yr warranty.   Renogy sells a 100AH LiFePO4 for $765.   A company, 
CurrentConnected.com , sells a SOK 100AH LiFePO4 
battery for $569 and it has a 10 yr warranty!   YouTuber Will Prowse rates the 
SOK as the best value LiFePO4 12V drop in replacement (see 
https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/lithium-batteries.html 
).  There are a 
plethora of cheaper 100AH LiFePO4 batteries that can be found on Amazon, Ebay, 
AliExpres, …, but one gets little service and limited warrantees,  so I would 
recommend avoiding these.

Rather than buying 2 100AH lead acid batteries for $528 at a total weight of 
140lbs(70lbs each) , one could just buy 1 100AH LiFePO4 for $569 weighing only 
28lbs and get a better performing battery.  That is basically the same price.   
If one takes into account the increased lifetime, the saving is HUGE!  

If one builds their own DIY LiFePO4 battery, the savings is much much greater.  
 Last year I replaced 2 100AH lead acid batteries with one DIY 560AH LiFePO4 
battery for a little over $900 (see my blog link below).  The DIY LiFePO4 
battery occupies the same location and physical space as the previous 2 lead 
acid batteries, it weighs much less (95 lbs vs 125 lbs), but has 5 TIMES the 
capacity.

I recently gave a talk on off-grid solar systems a local  amateur radio society 
meeting.  The discuss the battery as the heart of the system and make the case 
for LiFePO4 batteries.  My slides from the talk are available on my blog:

https://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/2021/10/solar-off-grid-system.html 



Also, the details of my DIY 560AH LiFePO4 are posted at the link below which 
includes details about alternator charging. 


https://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/2021/06/adding-new-lifepo4-to-house-battery.html
 



 


-
Paul E.
1981 C Landfall 38 
S/V Johanna Rose
Fort Walton Beach, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/

> On May 26, 2022, at 11:24 AM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have been following the battery discussion and have a question.  I need to 
> replace my two 9 year old AGM batteries this season.  I have separate start 
> and house batteries which can be combined if needed.  I don’t have large 
> power needs (electronics, autopilot and fridge when cruising).  I have been 
> reading and researching this and I am unsure of what to purchase.  From what 
> I have read, AH is the important number to focus on.  Last time, I got 
> Lifeline AGM group 27 from Defender.  Defender has 3 different group 27 
> batteries
> Powertech rated at 92AH  which cost about $330
> Lifeline  rated at 100AH for 432
> Northstar   rated at 92AH for 457
>   
> From Amazon, I can get a VMAX group 27 with 100AH for $289 or a Universal 
> with 110 AH for $239.  Is there any reason to be concerned about less known 
> (to me) brands from Amazon or does it make sense to just focus on the 
> numbers?  Thanks- Dave  
> 
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
> 

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[cenelson--- via CnC-List]

I agree!
You might also look at Northstar (?) all virgin lead AGM batteries that come 
with (or used to) a very good warranty—full replacement up to 3 yrs IIRC.
Sold at Batteries plus stores (and probably others). One of my crew left the 
fridge on when he left the boat and ruined 2 31 size Northstar near the end of 
the full replacement date and they were replaced with NEW ones at no charge.
With that kind of customer service, I bought another Northstar from them for my 
start battery.
YMMV but I would buy them again when necessary.
Charlie Nelson1995 C 36 XL/kcbWater Phantom


Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS


On Thursday, May 26, 2022, 11:40 AM, Joe Della Barba via CnC-List 
 wrote:


There is a lot of reason to be concerned about off brands. Pretty much all 
cycling batteries of the same size will be about the same AH rating. There is 
no magic in lead batteries, the AH per pound is pretty consistent.  What 
matters *hugely* is the number of cycles that they can endure before being 
trashed. The various cheap Chinese imports are highly variable to say the 
least, their reviews are all over the place. Lifeline is usually considered the 
best AGM maker. 

FYI – Deka makes all the West Marine AGMs, you might call around your local 
battery shop and see what they charge. They are worse than Lifelines, but if 
they crap out after a week at least you can return them to the store 

Joe Della Barba

Coquina C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA

  

  

  

From: David Knecht via CnC-List  
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 11:25 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: Stus-List Batteries again

  

I have been following the battery discussion and have a question.  I need to 
replace my two 9 year old AGM batteries this season.  I have separate start and 
house batteries which can be combined if needed.  I don’t have large power 
needs (electronics, autopilot and fridge when cruising).  I have been reading 
and researching this and I am unsure of what to purchase.  From what I have 
read, AH is the important number to focus on.  Last time, I got Lifeline AGM 
group 27 from Defender.  Defender has 3 different group 27 batteries

Powertech rated at 92AH  which cost about $330

Lifeline      rated at 100AH for 432

Northstar   rated at 92AH for 457

  

>From Amazon, I can get a VMAX group 27 with 100AH for $289 or a Universal with 
>110 AH for $239.  Is there any reason to be concerned about less known (to me) 
>brands from Amazon or does it make sense to just focus on the numbers?  
>Thanks- Dave  

  

S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT




  

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Joe Della Barba via CnC-List]

There is a lot of reason to be concerned about off brands. Pretty much all 
cycling batteries of the same size will be about the same AH rating. There is 
no magic in lead batteries, the AH per pound is pretty consistent.  What 
matters *hugely* is the number of cycles that they can endure before being 
trashed. The various cheap Chinese imports are highly variable to say the 
least, their reviews are all over the place. Lifeline is usually considered the 
best AGM maker. 

FYI – Deka makes all the West Marine AGMs, you might call around your local 
battery shop and see what they charge. They are worse than Lifelines, but if 
they crap out after a week at least you can return them to the store 

Joe Della Barba

Coquina C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA

 

 

 

From: David Knecht via CnC-List  
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 11:25 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: Stus-List Batteries again

 

I have been following the battery discussion and have a question.  I need to 
replace my two 9 year old AGM batteries this season.  I have separate start and 
house batteries which can be combined if needed.  I don’t have large power 
needs (electronics, autopilot and fridge when cruising).  I have been reading 
and researching this and I am unsure of what to purchase.  From what I have 
read, AH is the important number to focus on.  Last time, I got Lifeline AGM 
group 27 from Defender.  Defender has 3 different group 27 batteries

Powertech rated at 92AH  which cost about $330

Lifeline  rated at 100AH for 432

Northstar   rated at 92AH for 457

  

>From Amazon, I can get a VMAX group 27 with 100AH for $289 or a Universal with 
>110 AH for $239.  Is there any reason to be concerned about less known (to me) 
>brands from Amazon or does it make sense to just focus on the numbers?  
>Thanks- Dave  

 

S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT