Re: Stus-List Rudder repair?
Another cost that you may not have anticipated is replacement of the Radial Drive wheel in the steering system. Often times when a stainless rudder post bends, it distorts its shape over a certain length of the post. Given that the steel is much harder than the aluminum casting of the radial drive wheel, the bent rudder post tends to elongate the bore of the radial wheel. One way to determine this is to remove the wheel and using a precision caliper, tighten the two halves together and take several measurements of the bore, taken at various degrees in the circle, measuring to the closest .001". Since there needs to be a .002-.003" clamping tolerance (undersized) for the radial to clamp securely on the new post, you don't want an egg shaped bore on your radial wheel as that would compromise steering integrity. When I worked at Edson, after hurricanes and other large weather events, we'd see the results of boats that were blown across highways and parking lots bouncing off their rudders and keels. Most times the post would bend and there would be hairline cracks in the hub of the radial as the stress of the bent post would be transferred to the aluminum casting. Its worth checking out and whatever you do, don't try to weld a crack in a cast radial drive wheel. Chuck Gilchrest S/V Half Magic 1983 35 Landfall Padanaram, MA From: CnC-List On Behalf Of Bill Coleman via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 1:42 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Bill Coleman Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder repair? I agree, you should probably try for a new rudder. SS should never be heated to bend, causes corrosion, plus it anneals it. That pipe is probably pretty soft as it is, but in addition, it would be right around the fiberglass, and that would be really bad. Also, due to SS work hardening , it never wants to bend in the same place twice, if it has the option, and so it probably wouldn't come back as original. Bill Coleman C 39 Erie, PA From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David Knecht via CnC-List Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 11:47 AM To: CnC CnC discussion list Cc: David Knecht Subject: Stus-List Rudder repair? I have a decision to make on repairing the rudder on my boat after it was damaged in a grounding on a reef. The shaft is bent and they are proposing to straighten the shaft and then repair the fiberglass. It was described to me by the surveyor as a common process and no big deal. He said they used heat and hydraulics to do it while the shaft is still attached to the rudder. He described one done recently on a Nonesuch as bent worse than mine and came out fine. I have been looking into having a replacement built, but that is going to take more time and money to do, so I am wondering what the experience and wisdom of the group is on the issue of repair. Thanks- Dave Aries 1990 C 34+ New London, CT ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Rudder repair?
I agree, you should probably try for a new rudder. SS should never be heated to bend, causes corrosion, plus it anneals it. That pipe is probably pretty soft as it is, but in addition, it would be right around the fiberglass, and that would be really bad. Also, due to SS work hardening , it never wants to bend in the same place twice, if it has the option, and so it probably wouldn't come back as original. Bill Coleman C 39 Erie, PA From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David Knecht via CnC-List Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 11:47 AM To: CnC CnC discussion list Cc: David Knecht Subject: Stus-List Rudder repair? I have a decision to make on repairing the rudder on my boat after it was damaged in a grounding on a reef. The shaft is bent and they are proposing to straighten the shaft and then repair the fiberglass. It was described to me by the surveyor as a common process and no big deal. He said they used heat and hydraulics to do it while the shaft is still attached to the rudder. He described one done recently on a Nonesuch as bent worse than mine and came out fine. I have been looking into having a replacement built, but that is going to take more time and money to do, so I am wondering what the experience and wisdom of the group is on the issue of repair. Thanks- Dave Aries 1990 C 34+ New London, CT ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Rudder repair?
David; Let me tell you about my experience and why I recommend you opt for a new rudder. I had a grounding back in 2004 when the boat was new to me. Towboat/US proceeded to tow me off by pulling me over the shoal and I ended up with a bent rudder post. The yard got approval to remove glass & foam from the rudder, heat the shaft and straighten it, and then reglass the rudder blade. Fast forward to 2008. I was in a distance race (and ironically enough about 2 miles off the same yard and Towboat facility) when there was a bang and I lost steering. Thought it was a broken cable or idler sheave but could find no problem. Dove on the boat and there was no rudder or shaft. just a very sharp ring of stainless protruding a few inches below the hull. When the boat was towed in and hauled, it looked like mice had been nibbling on the rudder shaft. My shaft was made from 3" schedule 80 stainless tubing - which is over 3" OD and has a wall thickness of about .25". Diagnosis was crevice corrosion - so the repair was not covered by the insurance. (Parenthetically, I earned that the 38 1 & 2's almost all had the rudder shaft from 3" schedule 80 tube, and some of the 38LFs used a shaft from solid bar stock of the same OD while some had 3.5" schedule 80 tube. Southshore made a rudder for a local 38LF that had lost the skin and foam from the blade, sent him a rudder with the wrong shaft and had to make him a second rudder. (I used the solid rudder shaft from the failed rudder for the rudder I had made for my boat.) Talked to metallurgist in the engineering department at the forklift manufacturer where I worked. According to him, you reduce the strength of stainless steel up to 40% when you bend it, reduce it further when you heat it, and reduce it further when you rebend it. Oh, and you also reduce the corrosion resistance. The yard had apparently not completely sealed the new glass work around the straightened rudder shaft and it took just 4 years in the brackish water around here for the shaft to corrode to the point of breaking off. I sent my new-to-me solid rudder shaft to Foss Foam in Florida, and they built me a new rudder. It was surprisingly reasonable - a bit over $3K IIRC using the shaft I supplied- and the lowest of the several quotes I got. That's my sad story - and why I think you should get a new rudder and not a repair. Rick Brass Washington, NC From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David Knecht via CnC-List Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 11:47 AM To: CnC CnC discussion list Cc: David Knecht Subject: Stus-List Rudder repair? I have a decision to make on repairing the rudder on my boat after it was damaged in a grounding on a reef. The shaft is bent and they are proposing to straighten the shaft and then repair the fiberglass. It was described to me by the surveyor as a common process and no big deal. He said they used heat and hydraulics to do it while the shaft is still attached to the rudder. He described one done recently on a Nonesuch as bent worse than mine and came out fine. I have been looking into having a replacement built, but that is going to take more time and money to do, so I am wondering what the experience and wisdom of the group is on the issue of repair. Thanks- Dave Aries 1990 C 34+ New London, CT ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Rudder repair?
Listen to James. His advice is sound. Don't let the insurance company push you around. You want the boat back to where it was before the grounding, and heating and straightening won't bring it back to the way it was. Alan Bergen 35 Mk III Thirsty Rose City YC Portland, OR On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 3:57 PM, jcn--- via CnC-List wrote: > Dave > I have a C 29 Mk2 where the previous owner had hit rocks hard and tore > the bottom 10 inches off the rudder and bent the rudder post backward and > to port. There was also some damage to the bottom of the keel. I > replaced the bent rudder shaft with a new one made from 316 stainless as > part of a rudder rebuild. Stainless work hardens if bent and while it can > be straightened you are essentially cold working it again to go the other > way to straighten and I would be concerned with cracking and overall loss > of strength. If you added the required amount of heat to try to anneal to > compensate you would like damage the fiberglass rudder and foam core as the > anneal temperature for stainless is high. If you are operating in a salt > water environment it is also more severe and higher risk of stress > corrosion cracking and thus the reason 316 stainless is used vs 304 in > marine applications. Marine engineers designed the rudder post to bend if > hit hard enough once and thus not rip open the bottom of your boat. I'm not > sure they intended it to get straightened and take the same hit a second > time and not break off completely or worse. My recommendation is get a new > rudder, or at minimum get a new post and have the rudder rebuilt as there > is likely more damage you don't see inside or at least the foam core had > been compromised by water getting in which was the case with my rudder. > Good luck. > > James > C 29 Mk 2, White Magic. SN 001 > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jul 30, 2018, at 3:42 PM, Edward Levert via CnC-List < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > > David > > If your insurance company is pushing for the repair vs replacement, ask > them if they will guarantee the repair and any subsequent damages. > > Ed Levert > C 34 Briar Patch > New Orleans, La > > On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 3:35 PM John Read via CnC-List < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > >> David Who is doing the repairs and what experience do they have? Suggest >> you call a reputable surveyor ,some other repair yards and of course to get >> the real answer Nick at Fort Rachel. Best John Read >> >> >> Sent from XFINITY Connect Application >> >> >> -Original Message- >> >> From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com >> To: CnC-List@cnc-list.com >> Cc: davidakne...@gmail.com >> Sent: 2018-07-30 11:50:47 AM >> Subject: Stus-List Rudder repair? >> >> I have a decision to make on repairing the rudder on my boat after it was >> damaged in a grounding on a reef. The shaft is bent and they are proposing >> to straighten the shaft and then repair the fiberglass. It was described >> to me by the surveyor as a common process and no big deal. He said they >> used heat and hydraulics to do it while the shaft is still attached to the >> rudder. He described one done recently on a Nonesuch as bent worse than >> mine and came out fine. I have been looking into having a replacement >> built, but that is going to take more time and money to do, so I am >> wondering what the experience and wisdom of the group is on the issue of >> repair. Thanks- Dave >> >> Aries >> 1990 C 34+ >> New London, CT >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each >> and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - >> use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.paypal.me_stumurray=DwMFaQ=clK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI=9w3G7Cf8YfQnrjmtuNxwDJYr3JMv9f1pAfgAJ9xXYQQ=mJXNaAcpyhHcm-UHdynsBGMWClt7o9ApNe2hK1QQc2U=MWE8uJlrCvap5_k_8NwUfeGye9Ldpa19IcWuPxh_Iwk=> >> >> ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each > and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - > use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.paypal.me_stumurray=DwMFaQ=clK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI=9w3G7Cf8YfQnrjmtuNxwDJYr3JMv9f1pAfgAJ9xXYQQ=mJXNaAcpyhHcm-UHdynsBGMWClt7o9ApNe2hK1QQc2U=MWE8uJlrCvap5_k_8NwUfeGye9Ldpa19IcWuPxh_Iwk=> > > > __
Re: Stus-List Rudder repair?
Dave I have a C 29 Mk2 where the previous owner had hit rocks hard and tore the bottom 10 inches off the rudder and bent the rudder post backward and to port. There was also some damage to the bottom of the keel. I replaced the bent rudder shaft with a new one made from 316 stainless as part of a rudder rebuild. Stainless work hardens if bent and while it can be straightened you are essentially cold working it again to go the other way to straighten and I would be concerned with cracking and overall loss of strength. If you added the required amount of heat to try to anneal to compensate you would like damage the fiberglass rudder and foam core as the anneal temperature for stainless is high. If you are operating in a salt water environment it is also more severe and higher risk of stress corrosion cracking and thus the reason 316 stainless is used vs 304 in marine applications. Marine engineers designed the rudder post to bend if hit hard enough once and thus not rip open the bottom of your boat. I'm not sure they intended it to get straightened and take the same hit a second time and not break off completely or worse. My recommendation is get a new rudder, or at minimum get a new post and have the rudder rebuilt as there is likely more damage you don't see inside or at least the foam core had been compromised by water getting in which was the case with my rudder.Good luck. James C 29 Mk 2, White Magic. SN 001 Sent from my iPad > On Jul 30, 2018, at 3:42 PM, Edward Levert via CnC-List > wrote: > > David > > If your insurance company is pushing for the repair vs replacement, ask them > if they will guarantee the repair and any subsequent damages. > > Ed Levert > C 34 Briar Patch > New Orleans, La > >> On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 3:35 PM John Read via CnC-List >> wrote: >> David Who is doing the repairs and what experience do they have? Suggest you >> call a reputable surveyor ,some other repair yards and of course to get the >> real answer Nick at Fort Rachel. Best John Read >> >> >> Sent from XFINITY Connect Application >> >> >> -Original Message- >> >> From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com >> To: CnC-List@cnc-list.com >> Cc: davidakne...@gmail.com >> Sent: 2018-07-30 11:50:47 AM >> Subject: Stus-List Rudder repair? >> >> I have a decision to make on repairing the rudder on my boat after it was >> damaged in a grounding on a reef. The shaft is bent and they are proposing >> to straighten the shaft and then repair the fiberglass. It was described to >> me by the surveyor as a common process and no big deal. He said they used >> heat and hydraulics to do it while the shaft is still attached to the >> rudder. He described one done recently on a Nonesuch as bent worse than >> mine and came out fine. I have been looking into having a replacement >> built, but that is going to take more time and money to do, so I am >> wondering what the experience and wisdom of the group is on the issue of >> repair. Thanks- Dave >> >> Aries >> 1990 C 34+ >> New London, CT >> >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and >> every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use >> PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray >> > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and > every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use > PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Rudder repair?
David If your insurance company is pushing for the repair vs replacement, ask them if they will guarantee the repair and any subsequent damages. Ed Levert C 34 Briar Patch New Orleans, La On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 3:35 PM John Read via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > David Who is doing the repairs and what experience do they have? Suggest > you call a reputable surveyor ,some other repair yards and of course to get > the real answer Nick at Fort Rachel. Best John Read > > > Sent from XFINITY Connect Application > > > -Original Message- > > From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com > To: CnC-List@cnc-list.com > Cc: davidakne...@gmail.com > Sent: 2018-07-30 11:50:47 AM > Subject: Stus-List Rudder repair? > > I have a decision to make on repairing the rudder on my boat after it was > damaged in a grounding on a reef. The shaft is bent and they are proposing > to straighten the shaft and then repair the fiberglass. It was described > to me by the surveyor as a common process and no big deal. He said they > used heat and hydraulics to do it while the shaft is still attached to the > rudder. He described one done recently on a Nonesuch as bent worse than > mine and came out fine. I have been looking into having a replacement > built, but that is going to take more time and money to do, so I am > wondering what the experience and wisdom of the group is on the issue of > repair. Thanks- Dave > > Aries > 1990 C 34+ > New London, CT > > > > > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each > and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - > use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Rudder repair?
David Who is doing the repairs and what experience do they have? Suggest you call a reputable surveyor ,some other repair yards and of course to get the real answer Nick at Fort Rachel. Best John Read Sent from XFINITY Connect Application-Original Message-From: cnc-list@cnc-list.comTo: CnC-List@cnc-list.comCc: davidakne...@gmail.comSent: 2018-07-30 11:50:47 AM Subject: Stus-List Rudder repair?I have a decision to make on repairing the rudder on my boat after it was damaged in a grounding on a reef. The shaft is bent and they are proposing to straighten the shaft and then repair the fiberglass. It was described to me by the surveyor as a common process and no big deal. He said they used heat and hydraulics to do it while the shaft is still attached to the rudder. He described one done recently on a Nonesuch as bent worse than mine and came out fine. I have been looking into having a replacement built, but that is going to take more time and money to do, so I am wondering what the experience and wisdom of the group is on the issue of repair. Thanks- Dave Aries1990 C 34+New London, CT ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Rudder repair?
Maybe get a 2nd opinion by a REALLY reputable yard? Maybe New England Boat works or the like? On 7/30/2018 11:47 AM, David Knecht via CnC-List wrote: I have a decision to make on repairing the rudder on my boat after it was damaged in a grounding on a reef. The shaft is bent and they are proposing to straighten the shaft and then repair the fiberglass. It was described to me by the surveyor as a common process and no big deal. He said they used heat and hydraulics to do it while the shaft is still attached to the rudder. He described one done recently on a Nonesuch as bent worse than mine and came out fine. I have been looking into having a replacement built, but that is going to take more time and money to do, so I am wondering what the experience and wisdom of the group is on the issue of repair. Thanks- Dave Aries 1990 C 34+ New London, CT ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Rudder repair?
Insurance is paying right? Let them figure it out. I would not have considered the solution they suggest but if they have confidence then they probably also have the experience to back it up. If the company can't straighten it then you'll get a new rudder any way. Josh Muckley S /V Sea Hawk 1989 C 37+ Solomons, MD On Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 11:47 AM David Knecht via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > I have a decision to make on repairing the rudder on my boat after it was > damaged in a grounding on a reef. The shaft is bent and they are proposing > to straighten the shaft and then repair the fiberglass. It was described > to me by the surveyor as a common process and no big deal. He said they > used heat and hydraulics to do it while the shaft is still attached to the > rudder. He described one done recently on a Nonesuch as bent worse than > mine and came out fine. I have been looking into having a replacement > built, but that is going to take more time and money to do, so I am > wondering what the experience and wisdom of the group is on the issue of > repair. Thanks- Dave > > Aries > 1990 C 34+ > New London, CT > > > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each > and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - > use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Rudder repair?
I replaced my rudder (including the shaft) about 15 years ago and, later, found out that the shaft wasn’t bent as I had though—the upper bearing had just shifted. Make sure your shaft is really bent before proceeding. To do this, I would try to realign the bearing just below the deck first. I have seen rudders rebuilt by boatyards and I have seen one really screwed up. Make sure the person who makes the new rudder is experienced. I would be very hesitant with trying to straighten the shaft in place with heat and force—if you tackle this make sure the yard is insured. Bob Bob Boyer s/v Rainy Days C Landfall 38 (Hull # 230) (Presently in Baltimore for the summer) blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com email: dainyr...@icloud.com > On Jul 30, 2018, at 11:47 AM, David Knecht via CnC-List > wrote: > > I have a decision to make on repairing the rudder on my boat after it was > damaged in a grounding on a reef. The shaft is bent and they are proposing > to straighten the shaft and then repair the fiberglass. It was described to > me by the surveyor as a common process and no big deal. He said they used > heat and hydraulics to do it while the shaft is still attached to the rudder. > He described one done recently on a Nonesuch as bent worse than mine and > came out fine. I have been looking into having a replacement built, but that > is going to take more time and money to do, so I am wondering what the > experience and wisdom of the group is on the issue of repair. Thanks- Dave > > Aries > 1990 C 34+ > New London, CT > > > > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and > every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use > PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Stus-List Rudder repair?
I have a decision to make on repairing the rudder on my boat after it was damaged in a grounding on a reef. The shaft is bent and they are proposing to straighten the shaft and then repair the fiberglass. It was described to me by the surveyor as a common process and no big deal. He said they used heat and hydraulics to do it while the shaft is still attached to the rudder. He described one done recently on a Nonesuch as bent worse than mine and came out fine. I have been looking into having a replacement built, but that is going to take more time and money to do, so I am wondering what the experience and wisdom of the group is on the issue of repair. Thanks- Dave Aries 1990 C 34+ New London, CT ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
