Stus-List Singing Rigging

[Rob Ball via CnC-List]

We looked into it when C 30’s were doing it when tied to the dock or slip.  
Indeed those Von Karmen Vortices.  The only real solution is/was to change the 
‘frequency’ of the spar somehow.  The simplest being tension some point on the 
mast - maybe a simple as a tight spinnaker pole lift.  
But a challenge non-the-less . . . . . 
>   2.  Singing Rigging (G Donald Wagner)
>   3. Re:  Singing Rigging (David Risch)
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Re: Stus-List Singing Rigging

[David Risch via CnC-List]

So is it a high sea note...?

Sent from my Android. Please forgive typos. Thank you.


From: CnC-List  on behalf of G Donald Wagner via 
CnC-List 
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2020 6:46:41 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: G Donald Wagner 
Subject: Stus-List Singing Rigging

A lot of boats sing at certain wind speeds

I believe it is caused by a phenomena known as "von Karman vortex shedding"
You will find it described in many fluid dynamics treatises.

Don Wagner
C 41 CB
Der Baron

G Donald Wagner
don.wag...@verizon.net
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Stus-List Singing Rigging

[G Donald Wagner via CnC-List]

A lot of boats sing at certain wind speeds
I believe it is caused by a phenomena known as "von Karman vortex shedding"You 
will find it described in many fluid dynamics treatises.
Don WagnerC 41 CBDer Baron

G Donald Wagner
don.wag...@verizon.net
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Re: Stus-List Singing Rigging

[Jim Watts via CnC-List]

My wife says the shrouds sound better than my singing.

Jim Watts
Paradigm Shift
C 35 Mk III
Victoria, BC

On 27 July 2016 at 06:37, Bill Coleman via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
wrote:

> Jim –
>
>
>
> Have you just tried singing along? . . .
>
>
>
> Bill Coleman
>
> C 39 Erie, PA[image: animated_favicon1]
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Jim
> Watts via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 26, 2016 11:16 AM
> *To:* 1 CnC List
> *Cc:* Jim Watts
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Singing Rigging
>
>
>
> I have been trying to silence our shrouds for years. Loosen, tighten, bind
> them together, hold them apart...nothing works. I suspect I'm going to have
> to pull the rig and start over to fix this, just like in our 29-2.
>
>
> Jim Watts
> Paradigm Shift
> C 35 Mk III
> Victoria, BC
>
>
>
> On 26 July 2016 at 08:06, Don Harben via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thank you! This gets lots of tangential rig visuals of wind flow!
>
> Don
>
> Don Harben
> Viking 34
> Life
> www.ncyc.ca
>
>
>
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>
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> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
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>
>
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> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Singing Rigging

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

Jim – 

 

Have you just tried singing along? . . . 

 

Bill Coleman

C 39 Erie, PAanimated_favicon1

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Jim Watts 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 11:16 AM
To: 1 CnC List
Cc: Jim Watts
Subject: Re: Stus-List Singing Rigging

 

I have been trying to silence our shrouds for years. Loosen, tighten, bind them 
together, hold them apart...nothing works. I suspect I'm going to have to pull 
the rig and start over to fix this, just like in our 29-2. 




Jim Watts
Paradigm Shift
C 35 Mk III
Victoria, BC

 

On 26 July 2016 at 08:06, Don Harben via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

Thank you! This gets lots of tangential rig visuals of wind flow!

Don

Don Harben
Viking 34
Life
www.ncyc.ca



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Stus-List Singing Rigging

[robert via CnC-List]

Christian:

The 'humming' is probably coming from your shrouds.  Since my boat is 
currently about 300 yards away from your boat, we experience the same 
weather (wind) conditions.


I tried loosening/tightening my shrouds a little but that didn't seem to 
work.  My final solution was to wrap each shroud with plain 'electrical 
tape'..about eye level, approx. 6 to 8 complete wraps with the tape 
on each shroud.since doing that, I have not had my rig 'sing' to me.


Rob Abbott

AZURA

C 32 - 84

Halifax, N.S>




On 2016-07-25 12:04 PM, Christian Tirtirau via CnC-List wrote:

Hello fellow seers,
I'm getting this humming in the mast as soon as I have a little breeze while on 
the mooring ball and it's really annoying. At first I thought it was a 
generator or an engine sound propagated by water but I realized it's the 
strings of this big violin that are singing. Any idea how you get rid of that 
without messing up the rig balance? Is it the baby stay? I have a lower that is 
a little loose and when I tension it the sound pitch changes but does not go 
away.
Cheers,
Christian Tirtirau
C 37 Northern Light

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Re: Stus-List Singing Rigging

[David via CnC-List]

Ya gotta love it...

 "lateral sinusoidal force"
David F. Risch
(401) 419-4650 (cell)


> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 10:26:34 -0400
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Singing Rigging
> From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> CC: colt...@verizon.net
> 
> I happen to know a Ph.D on the subject, so I ran it by him : 
> Probably a little more info than anyone needed, but that is 
> Just what we do on this list!
> 
> << Bill:
> 
> The winglets and vortex shedding are unrelated.  They both involve
> vortexes but they are different issues.
> 
> When you have flow separation around a bluff body (like a shroud or a
> mast) you will get vortices shed in an alternating fashion from one side
> and then the other.  This will cause a lateral sinusoidal force and if the
> frequency of the shedding matches the natural frequency of the object it
> will go into resonance which is what causes the noise.
> 
> An airplane wing also produces vorticity but unless it's stalled it's not
> vortex shedding.  The wing vorticity causes a change in the direction of
> the incoming flow which results in part of the lift vector pointing
> backwards - which is in the direction of drag - and is thus called
> lift-induced drag (or just induced drag).  Winglets bascailly fake out the
> flow to make it think that the wing is longer than it is, and thus reduced
> the induced drag.
> 
> If you google "vortex shedding" and "induced drag" I'm sure you will see
> some pictures or drawings explaining this.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Bill L  >>
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Don
> Wagner via CnC-List
> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 8:08 PM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: Don Wagner; Christian Tirtirau
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Singing Rigging
> 
> This is technically known as "vortex shedding". It's a natural phenomena
> caused by the air flow around a round cylinder ( the rod or the wire) and
> occurs at certain wind speeds. At normal speeds, normal flow occurs, and
> there's no vibration. At certain higher speeds, vortexes develop, and
> induce
> 
> vibrations in the rigging. Tightening or loosing the rigging will usually
> reduce the effect. You can find a more complete description on the
> internet.
> 
> Note: Commercial airliners have observed the problem at their wing tips,
> and
> 
> many recently added small winglets at the ends of their wings.  I believe
> this reduces energy loss, reduces the vibration, and improves their fuel
> mileage.
> 
> Don Wagner
> C 41 CB
> Der Baron
> West River MD
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Christian Tirtirau via CnC-List
> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 11:04 AM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: Christian Tirtirau
> Subject: Stus-List Singing Rigging
> 
> Hello fellow seers,
> I'm getting this humming in the mast as soon as I have a little breeze
> while
> 
> on the mooring ball and it's really annoying. At first I thought it was a
> generator or an engine sound propagated by water but I realized it's the
> strings of this big violin that are singing. Any idea how you get rid of
> that without messing up the rig balance? Is it the baby stay? I have a
> lower
> 
> that is a little loose and when I tension it the sound pitch changes but
> does not go away.
> Cheers,
> Christian Tirtirau
> C 37 Northern Light
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like
> 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated! 
> 
> 
> ___
> 
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> like
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions
> are greatly appreciated!
> 
> 
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> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!




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Re: Stus-List Singing Rigging

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

I happen to know a Ph.D on the subject, so I ran it by him : 
Probably a little more info than anyone needed, but that is 
Just what we do on this list!

<< Bill:

The winglets and vortex shedding are unrelated.  They both involve
vortexes but they are different issues.

When you have flow separation around a bluff body (like a shroud or a
mast) you will get vortices shed in an alternating fashion from one side
and then the other.  This will cause a lateral sinusoidal force and if the
frequency of the shedding matches the natural frequency of the object it
will go into resonance which is what causes the noise.

An airplane wing also produces vorticity but unless it's stalled it's not
vortex shedding.  The wing vorticity causes a change in the direction of
the incoming flow which results in part of the lift vector pointing
backwards - which is in the direction of drag - and is thus called
lift-induced drag (or just induced drag).  Winglets bascailly fake out the
flow to make it think that the wing is longer than it is, and thus reduced
the induced drag.

If you google "vortex shedding" and "induced drag" I'm sure you will see
some pictures or drawings explaining this.

Cheers,

Bill L  >>



-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Don
Wagner via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 8:08 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Don Wagner; Christian Tirtirau
Subject: Re: Stus-List Singing Rigging

This is technically known as "vortex shedding". It's a natural phenomena
caused by the air flow around a round cylinder ( the rod or the wire) and
occurs at certain wind speeds. At normal speeds, normal flow occurs, and
there's no vibration. At certain higher speeds, vortexes develop, and
induce

vibrations in the rigging. Tightening or loosing the rigging will usually
reduce the effect. You can find a more complete description on the
internet.

Note: Commercial airliners have observed the problem at their wing tips,
and

many recently added small winglets at the ends of their wings.  I believe
this reduces energy loss, reduces the vibration, and improves their fuel
mileage.

Don Wagner
C 41 CB
Der Baron
West River MD



-Original Message-
From: Christian Tirtirau via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 11:04 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Christian Tirtirau
Subject: Stus-List Singing Rigging

Hello fellow seers,
I'm getting this humming in the mast as soon as I have a little breeze
while

on the mooring ball and it's really annoying. At first I thought it was a
generator or an engine sound propagated by water but I realized it's the
strings of this big violin that are singing. Any idea how you get rid of
that without messing up the rig balance? Is it the baby stay? I have a
lower

that is a little loose and when I tension it the sound pitch changes but
does not go away.
Cheers,
Christian Tirtirau
C 37 Northern Light

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Contributions are greatly appreciated! 


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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
Contributions
are greatly appreciated!


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Re: Stus-List Singing Rigging

[Bernard Bauman via CnC-List]

Is that why they call it "tuning the rigging"?
BernieEx C 25 #342Shopping for new boat

 Original message 
From: Franklin Schenk via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Date: 07/25/2016  9:09 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Franklin Schenk <fdsch...@flash.net>, Christian Tirtirau 
<christian_tirti...@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Singing Rigging 

I think what is happening is that either a shroud or a stay has hit resonant 
frequency.  I think that either tightening or loosing it will eliminate the 
noise.  Resonant frequency is the natural frequency of an object.  This happens 
to my wife when she gets mad at me and is wound up tight.
FrankC 29 

On Monday, July 25, 2016 3:16 PM, Christian Tirtirau via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
  

 Hello fellow seers,
I'm getting this humming in the mast as soon as I have a little breeze while on 
the mooring ball and it's really annoying. At first I thought it was a 
generator or an engine sound propagated by water but I realized it's the 
strings of this big violin that are singing. Any idea how you get rid of that 
without messing up the rig balance? Is it the baby stay? I have a lower that is 
a little loose and when I tension it the sound pitch changes but does not go 
away.
Cheers,
Christian Tirtirau
C 37 Northern Light

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Re: Stus-List Singing Rigging

[Franklin Schenk via CnC-List]

I think what is happening is that either a shroud or a stay has hit resonant 
frequency.  I think that either tightening or loosing it will eliminate the 
noise.  Resonant frequency is the natural frequency of an object.  This happens 
to my wife when she gets mad at me and is wound up tight.
FrankC 29 

On Monday, July 25, 2016 3:16 PM, Christian Tirtirau via CnC-List 
 wrote:
 

 Hello fellow seers,
I'm getting this humming in the mast as soon as I have a little breeze while on 
the mooring ball and it's really annoying. At first I thought it was a 
generator or an engine sound propagated by water but I realized it's the 
strings of this big violin that are singing. Any idea how you get rid of that 
without messing up the rig balance? Is it the baby stay? I have a lower that is 
a little loose and when I tension it the sound pitch changes but does not go 
away.
Cheers,
Christian Tirtirau
C 37 Northern Light

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Re: Stus-List Singing Rigging

[Charles Nelson via CnC-List]

Ahhh the vortices! Only relatively recently were these observed in experiments 
done on 'bumble bee' flight. IIRC, they were shown to be a significant source 
of lift for these large bees, without which they either could not fly or 
certainly not fly as well as they do!

Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
C 36 XL/kcb

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 25, 2016, at 8:08 PM, Don Wagner via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> This is technically known as "vortex shedding". It's a natural phenomena 
> caused by the air flow around a round cylinder ( the rod or the wire) and 
> occurs at certain wind speeds. At normal speeds, normal flow occurs, and 
> there's no vibration. At certain higher speeds, vortexes develop, and induce 
> vibrations in the rigging. Tightening or loosing the rigging will usually 
> reduce the effect. You can find a more complete description on the internet.
> 
> Note: Commercial airliners have observed the problem at their wing tips, and 
> many recently added small winglets at the ends of their wings.  I believe 
> this reduces energy loss, reduces the vibration, and improves their fuel 
> mileage.
> 
> Don Wagner
> C 41 CB
> Der Baron
> West River MD
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message- From: Christian Tirtirau via CnC-List
> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 11:04 AM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: Christian Tirtirau
> Subject: Stus-List Singing Rigging
> 
> Hello fellow seers,
> I'm getting this humming in the mast as soon as I have a little breeze while 
> on the mooring ball and it's really annoying. At first I thought it was a 
> generator or an engine sound propagated by water but I realized it's the 
> strings of this big violin that are singing. Any idea how you get rid of that 
> without messing up the rig balance? Is it the baby stay? I have a lower that 
> is a little loose and when I tension it the sound pitch changes but does not 
> go away.
> Cheers,
> Christian Tirtirau
> C 37 Northern Light
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated! 
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!

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Re: Stus-List Singing Rigging

[Don Wagner via CnC-List]

This is technically known as "vortex shedding". It's a natural phenomena 
caused by the air flow around a round cylinder ( the rod or the wire) and 
occurs at certain wind speeds. At normal speeds, normal flow occurs, and 
there's no vibration. At certain higher speeds, vortexes develop, and induce 
vibrations in the rigging. Tightening or loosing the rigging will usually 
reduce the effect. You can find a more complete description on the internet.


Note: Commercial airliners have observed the problem at their wing tips, and 
many recently added small winglets at the ends of their wings.  I believe 
this reduces energy loss, reduces the vibration, and improves their fuel 
mileage.


Don Wagner
C 41 CB
Der Baron
West River MD



-Original Message- 
From: Christian Tirtirau via CnC-List

Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 11:04 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Christian Tirtirau
Subject: Stus-List Singing Rigging

Hello fellow seers,
I'm getting this humming in the mast as soon as I have a little breeze while 
on the mooring ball and it's really annoying. At first I thought it was a 
generator or an engine sound propagated by water but I realized it's the 
strings of this big violin that are singing. Any idea how you get rid of 
that without messing up the rig balance? Is it the baby stay? I have a lower 
that is a little loose and when I tension it the sound pitch changes but 
does not go away.

Cheers,
Christian Tirtirau
C 37 Northern Light

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Re: Stus-List Singing Rigging

[Jake Brodersen via CnC-List]

Christian,

Attaching something to the shrouds that would dampen the vibrations will
help.  If it is the lower shrouds you might be able to stretch a rubber band
around the pair to quiet them down.  On a single shroud, a weighty piece of
rubber attached to it should help, preferably something streamlined that
doesn't create too much drag.

Jake

Jake Brodersen
C 35 Mk-III "Midnight Mistress"
Hampton VA



-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Christian
Tirtirau via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 11:04
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Christian Tirtirau <christian_tirti...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Stus-List Singing Rigging

Hello fellow seers,
I'm getting this humming in the mast as soon as I have a little breeze while
on the mooring ball and it's really annoying. At first I thought it was a
generator or an engine sound propagated by water but I realized it's the
strings of this big violin that are singing. Any idea how you get rid of
that without messing up the rig balance? Is it the baby stay? I have a lower
that is a little loose and when I tension it the sound pitch changes but
does not go away.
Cheers,
Christian Tirtirau
C 37 Northern Light

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Re: Stus-List Singing Rigging

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

Sometimes even a clothespin on the shroud will prevent the harmonic hum.

Joel

On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 4:19 PM, William Hall via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I had the exact same thing after taking down and putting the mast back
> up.  The previous owner said that the exact arrangement in which the
> shrouds were attached made the difference. I'm not sure exactly what he
> meant, but last year we took the rig down to transport via road, and
> evidently it was put back up the right way now, no hum.
>
> Bill Hall
> 1985 C 37
> Starfire
>
> On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Christian Tirtirau via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello fellow seers,
>> I'm getting this humming in the mast as soon as I have a little breeze
>> while on the mooring ball and it's really annoying. At first I thought it
>> was a generator or an engine sound propagated by water but I realized it's
>> the strings of this big violin that are singing. Any idea how you get rid
>> of that without messing up the rig balance? Is it the baby stay? I have a
>> lower that is a little loose and when I tension it the sound pitch changes
>> but does not go away.
>> Cheers,
>> Christian Tirtirau
>> C 37 Northern Light
>>
>> ___
>>
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
>> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
>> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>>
>
>
>
> --
> William D. Hall, Ph.D.
> 617 620 9078 (c)
> wh...@alum.mit.edu
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>


-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
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Re: Stus-List Singing Rigging

[Pete Shelquist via CnC-List]

If you have an adjustable backstay, that's probably the easiest way to
change tension in the rig and remove resonance.  The hum we get is usually
the forestay and this takes care of it nicely.

Pete
C 
Celebration


-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Christian
Tirtirau via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 10:04 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Christian Tirtirau
Subject: Stus-List Singing Rigging

Hello fellow seers,
I'm getting this humming in the mast as soon as I have a little breeze while
on the mooring ball and it's really annoying. At first I thought it was a
generator or an engine sound propagated by water but I realized it's the
strings of this big violin that are singing. Any idea how you get rid of
that without messing up the rig balance? Is it the baby stay? I have a lower
that is a little loose and when I tension it the sound pitch changes but
does not go away.
Cheers,
Christian Tirtirau
C 37 Northern Light

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greatly appreciated!

Stus-List Singing Rigging

[Christian Tirtirau via CnC-List]

Hello fellow seers,
I'm getting this humming in the mast as soon as I have a little breeze while on 
the mooring ball and it's really annoying. At first I thought it was a 
generator or an engine sound propagated by water but I realized it's the 
strings of this big violin that are singing. Any idea how you get rid of that 
without messing up the rig balance? Is it the baby stay? I have a lower that is 
a little loose and when I tension it the sound pitch changes but does not go 
away.
Cheers,
Christian Tirtirau
C 37 Northern Light

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