Re: Stus-List spinnaker rig

[Andrew Burton via CnC-List]

I appreciate your thoughts, Josh. But truly, I did not need to go and look at 
the thing in person. I can see from their web site that it is overly 
complicated, what with all those holes, flaps and strings. I can just imagine 
trying to untangle that mess if a situation goes pear-shaped with wraps and 
twists, etc. Without resorting to the knife it would be a bit of a challenge!

I talked to the best sail designers in the world, making a real effort to get 
them to say something positive about the sail. These included Kenny Read at 
North and his top designer, Butch Ulmer, Kerry Klinger, Dave Ulman, and Phil 
Leitch. I even talked to Scott Ferguson, who designed the wing for the Oracle 
cats. They were unanimous in the opinion I shared with you. There is no 
aerodynamic merit to Parasail's claims. Certainly, if the claims had merit, the 
company owners would be getting rich from royalties because North would have 
optioned the patent.

By the way, there is nothing to stop one flying a symmetric kite the same way 
as an asymmetric. We used to do it all the time before asymmetrics were 
invented. Perhaps fly it a little higher but always make sure it's got a strap 
to hold the tack close to the head stay so the it doesn't end up way to leeward 
when you're reaching. If you are reaching, have the tack a little closer to the 
deck than you'd think. That will move the draft forward, opening up the leech, 
and creating a better foil shape, just as a Cunningham does on your main.

Andy
C 40
Peregrine

Andrew Burton
61 W Narragansett
Newport, RI 
USA02840

http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
+401 965-5260

> On Apr 29, 2017, at 18:26, Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List 
> <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
> 
> At the risk of stating the obvious, if they are that good everyone would have 
> one.  Sounds like a gimmick to me.
>  
> From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List
> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 4:48 PM
> To: C List
> Cc: Josh Muckley
> Subject: Re: Stus-List spinnaker rig
>  
> Andrew, with all due respect your assessment may not be uninformed but it 
> does sound un-expierienced.  I understand your position... I mean how hard 
> could it be to sail a spinnaker and if it's that hard then why do I want it.  
> Though, it is an unconventional sail which unless it was properly introduced 
> to the user might have some quirks which you would need to know about.   That 
> being said the company would have provided you with the training for tree and 
> even provided you a free night stay on their boat.  This is normally what 
> they provide to purchasers.  This ensures that a buyer's expirience and 
> opinion are as fair and good as possible.
>  
> It does seem like a missed opportunity on their part to earn a glowing review 
> article from a seasoned (and hard to win over) sailor.  It probably wouldn't 
> have been a prohibitive cost to pay for your airplane ticket and in the end 
> would have paid for itself.
>  
> Still leaves me to wonder..
>  
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>  
>  
>  
> On Apr 29, 2017 2:32 PM, "Andrew Burton via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
> wrote:
> I'd venture to guess that a regular kite would have worked equally well or 
> better for your friend. I did a fair bit of research on them, inspected (but 
> never flew) them, and talked to a lot of experts about the company's claims 
> about their product. When I was working on an article on downwind sails for 
> the magazine I asked for one to test but they insisted I fly to them in Tampa 
> (at my own expense) so they could "train" me on their use. If that's 
> necessary for someone of my experience then I doubt someone of little 
> experience is going to have more success than with a regular kite. My 
> assessment of the Parasail is not exactly uninformed!
>  
> Andy
> C 40
> Peregrine
> 
> Andrew Burton
> 61 West Narragansett Ave
> Newport, RI
> USA 02840
>  
> +401 965 5260
>  
> 
>> On Apr 29, 2017, at 14:17, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
>> <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Interesting comment, Andy — I’ve got a friend who’s got one up on Lake 
>> Superior, and it’s worked well for him.
>>  
>> — Fred
>> 
>> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
>> S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(
>>  
>>> On Apr 28, 2017, at 8:38 PM, Andrew Burton via CnC-List 
>>> <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>>  
>>> Snake Oil! Seriously. Stay away from it. Their claims are bunk.
>>> Andy
>>> C 40
>>> Peregrine
>>> 
>>> Andrew Burton
>>> 61 W Narragansett
>>> Newport, RI
>>&g

Re: Stus-List spinnaker rig

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Andrew, with all due respect your assessment may not be uninformed but it
does sound un-expierienced.  I understand your position... I mean how hard
could it be to sail a spinnaker and if it's that hard then why do I want
it.  Though, it is an unconventional sail which unless it was properly
introduced to the user might have some quirks which you would need to know
about.   That being said the company would have provided you with the
training for tree and even provided you a free night stay on their boat.
This is normally what they provide to purchasers.  This ensures that a
buyer's expirience and opinion are as fair and good as possible.

It does seem like a missed opportunity on their part to earn a glowing
review article from a seasoned (and hard to win over) sailor.  It probably
wouldn't have been a prohibitive cost to pay for your airplane ticket and
in the end would have paid for itself.

Still leaves me to wonder..

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD



On Apr 29, 2017 2:32 PM, "Andrew Burton via CnC-List" 
wrote:

I'd venture to guess that a regular kite would have worked equally well or
better for your friend. I did a fair bit of research on them, inspected
(but never flew) them, and talked to a lot of experts about the company's
claims about their product. When I was working on an article on downwind
sails for the magazine I asked for one to test but they insisted I fly to
them in Tampa (at my own expense) so they could "train" me on their use. If
that's necessary for someone of my experience then I doubt someone of
little experience is going to have more success than with a regular kite.
My assessment of the Parasail is not exactly uninformed!

Andy
C 40
Peregrine

Andrew Burton
61 West Narragansett Ave
Newport, RI
USA 02840

+401 965 5260


On Apr 29, 2017, at 14:17, Frederick G Street via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

Interesting comment, Andy — I’ve got a friend who’s got one up on Lake
Superior, and it’s worked well for him.

— Fred

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

On Apr 28, 2017, at 8:38 PM, Andrew Burton via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

Snake Oil! Seriously. Stay away from it. Their claims are bunk.
Andy
C 40
Peregrine

Andrew Burton
61 W Narragansett
Newport, RI
USA02840

http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
+401 965-5260

On Apr 28, 2017, at 18:36, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
wrote:

Anybody have any thoughts on the parasailor?

http://www.parasailor.com/us/products/parasailor.html

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD

___


This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List spinnaker rig

[Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List]

Back in the ‘70s someone was making “puffy” chutes – they looked like Jerry 
Seinfeld’s shirt.  They didn’t last long.

From: Andrew Burton via CnC-List 
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 2:31 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Andrew Burton 
Subject: Re: Stus-List spinnaker rig

I'd venture to guess that a regular kite would have worked equally well or 
better for your friend. I did a fair bit of research on them, inspected (but 
never flew) them, and talked to a lot of experts about the company's claims 
about their product. When I was working on an article on downwind sails for the 
magazine I asked for one to test but they insisted I fly to them in Tampa (at 
my own expense) so they could "train" me on their use. If that's necessary for 
someone of my experience then I doubt someone of little experience is going to 
have more success than with a regular kite. My assessment of the Parasail is 
not exactly uninformed!

Andy
C 40
Peregrine

Andrew Burton 
61 West Narragansett Ave
Newport, RI 
USA 02840

+401 965 5260


On Apr 29, 2017, at 14:17, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:


  Interesting comment, Andy — I’ve got a friend who’s got one up on Lake 
Superior, and it’s worked well for him. 

  — Fred


  Fred Street -- Minneapolis
  S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

On Apr 28, 2017, at 8:38 PM, Andrew Burton via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

Snake Oil! Seriously. Stay away from it. Their claims are bunk.
Andy
C 40
Peregrine

Andrew Burton 
61 W Narragansett
Newport, RI 
USA02840

http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/ 
+401 965-5260

On Apr 28, 2017, at 18:36, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:


  Anybody have any thoughts on the parasailor?

  http://www.parasailor.com/us/products/parasailor.html 

  Josh Muckley
  S/V Sea Hawk
  1989 C 37+
  Solomons, MD
  ___

  This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish 
to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

  All Contributions are greatly appreciated!




___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List spinnaker rig

[Andrew Burton via CnC-List]

I'd venture to guess that a regular kite would have worked equally well or 
better for your friend. I did a fair bit of research on them, inspected (but 
never flew) them, and talked to a lot of experts about the company's claims 
about their product. When I was working on an article on downwind sails for the 
magazine I asked for one to test but they insisted I fly to them in Tampa (at 
my own expense) so they could "train" me on their use. If that's necessary for 
someone of my experience then I doubt someone of little experience is going to 
have more success than with a regular kite. My assessment of the Parasail is 
not exactly uninformed!

Andy
C 40
Peregrine

Andrew Burton
61 West Narragansett Ave
Newport, RI 
USA 02840

+401 965 5260


> On Apr 29, 2017, at 14:17, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Interesting comment, Andy — I’ve got a friend who’s got one up on Lake 
> Superior, and it’s worked well for him.
> 
> — Fred
> 
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(
> 
>> On Apr 28, 2017, at 8:38 PM, Andrew Burton via CnC-List 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Snake Oil! Seriously. Stay away from it. Their claims are bunk.
>> Andy
>> C 40
>> Peregrine
>> 
>> Andrew Burton
>> 61 W Narragansett
>> Newport, RI 
>> USA02840
>> 
>> http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
>> +401 965-5260
>> 
>>> On Apr 28, 2017, at 18:36, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Anybody have any thoughts on the parasailor?
>>> 
>>> http://www.parasailor.com/us/products/parasailor.html
>>> 
>>> Josh Muckley
>>> S/V Sea Hawk
>>> 1989 C 37+
>>> Solomons, MD
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish 
> to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List spinnaker rig

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

Interesting comment, Andy — I’ve got a friend who’s got one up on Lake 
Superior, and it’s worked well for him.

— Fred

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

> On Apr 28, 2017, at 8:38 PM, Andrew Burton via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Snake Oil! Seriously. Stay away from it. Their claims are bunk.
> Andy
> C 40
> Peregrine
> 
> Andrew Burton
> 61 W Narragansett
> Newport, RI 
> USA02840
> 
> http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/ 
> 
> +401 965-5260
> 
> On Apr 28, 2017, at 18:36, Josh Muckley via CnC-List  > wrote:
> 
>> Anybody have any thoughts on the parasailor?
>> 
>> http://www.parasailor.com/us/products/parasailor.html 
>> 
>> 
>> Josh Muckley
>> S/V Sea Hawk
>> 1989 C 37+
>> Solomons, MD
___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List spinnaker rig

[Dave S via CnC-List]

Kevin, I have both symmetrical and and a new asym on Windstar - a 1985 33-2
that I bought in '13.   Like you I use mine for recreation, in light air,
not ocean racing with a crew, and I sail out of Whitby so similar
conditions.


For the downhhaul, there is a padeye mid-foredeck but it can also be
clipped to the rail.  (I use a snatch block)I really don't think it's
that critical as long as the lead and load makes sense. (the line runs to a
lower bridle on the pole or to another attachment point, also impacting the
lead, so you want to consider the whole system.   I don't think I'd bore
any holes until you get a rig more or less working, you are not optimizing
a racing machine for quick gybing/deployment.  (yet)

The downhaul runs aft along the deck to a cam cleat on the side of the
cabin top,   The pole attaches to the mast with a ring on a sliding track.
  I would think the ability to adjust the pole height is more critical with
a symmetrical, so there is more complexity in rigging.  An asym with its
whisker pole might get by with a ring at a fixed height.  Others will know
more about this than I.

You can adjust the downhaul and topping lift from the cockpit, but the pole
base is tweaked at the mast.

IF you "launch"/douse the spin from a sock, you will need to thing about
the lines and process involved, and rig accordingly.

If you are down this way, I'd be happy to show you how the topping lift,
downhaul, etc were rigged from the factory, maybe you can scale off some
dimensions.   I can post photos to my blog at some point if you'd like.

I have not yet used the asym, but have sailed (not raced) with the
symmetrical, always shorthanded, and sometimes singlehanded, which is
probably not the wisest thing, but it does have its entertaining moments.
These are powerful sails.  As the wind builds and you will gain a new
appreciation for apparent vs true wind when running... (and think about the
otherworldliness of an IMOCA racer or similar that runs at 20+ knots in say
40kts of true wind). I have yet to fly the spin with both sheets and guys,
though I have both.

I have not read all the replies to you post,  but used symmetrical
spinnakers and poles are commonly found on Kijiji for a fraction of the
cost of new.Asymmetricals, not.   This may have some bearing on your
decision.

Fun stuff to play with.

Dave



-- Forwarded message --
From: Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com>
To: "C List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 18:36:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Stus-List spinnaker rig



On Apr 28, 2017 7:41 AM, "Kevin Deluzio via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
wrote:

> Hi All,
> This is my second season with my new to me 1980 30-1. I would like
> to rig it for a spinnaker this year. Not interested in racing with one, but
> I like the idea of using it for light winds downwind sailing. So I have to
> install a block for the pole lift and I’m wondering where to install it. In
> the C manual it shows the pole lift at 22’-0” above the ‘black line’ at
> base of mast. But I don’t have a black line on my mast, not at the base
> (which I assume is around the height of boom?) nor at the top of my mast.
> Does anyone know where I would locate these black lines? or the height of
> the topping lift from some other reference point? My second question is
> where to mount the pole downhaul (foreguy) - a? Thanks for this.
>
> By the way, love the list, such a great source of information. And here’s
> to all the other C owners out there who’s arms are a sore as mine this
> time of year as we get these boats ready for launch.
>
>
> Kevin Deluzio
> S/V Solevento
> C #641
> Kingston, ON
___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Re: Stus-List spinnaker rig

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Really?  wow!  I'd love to hear more about your experience.

Josh

On Apr 28, 2017 9:39 PM, "Andrew Burton via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> Snake Oil! Seriously. Stay away from it. Their claims are bunk.
> Andy
> C 40
> Peregrine
>
> Andrew Burton
> 61 W Narragansett
> Newport, RI
> USA02840
>
> http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
> +401 965-5260
>
> On Apr 28, 2017, at 18:36, Josh Muckley via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Anybody have any thoughts on the parasailor?
>
> http://www.parasailor.com/us/products/parasailor.html
>
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>
> On Apr 28, 2017 7:41 AM, "Kevin Deluzio via CnC-List" <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>> This is my second season with my new to me 1980 30-1. I would
>> like to rig it for a spinnaker this year. Not interested in racing with
>> one, but I like the idea of using it for light winds downwind sailing. So I
>> have to install a block for the pole lift and I’m wondering where to
>> install it. In the C manual it shows the pole lift at 22’-0” above the
>> ‘black line’ at base of mast. But I don’t have a black line on my mast, not
>> at the base (which I assume is around the height of boom?) nor at the top
>> of my mast. Does anyone know where I would locate these black lines? or the
>> height of the topping lift from some other reference point? My second
>> question is where to mount the pole downhaul (foreguy) - a? Thanks for this.
>>
>> By the way, love the list, such a great source of information. And here’s
>> to all the other C owners out there who’s arms are a sore as mine this
>> time of year as we get these boats ready for launch.
>>
>>
>> Kevin Deluzio
>> S/V Solevento
>> C #641
>> Kingston, ON
>> ___
>>
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
>> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
>> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>>
>> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List spinnaker rig

[Andrew Burton via CnC-List]

Snake Oil! Seriously. Stay away from it. Their claims are bunk.
Andy
C 40
Peregrine

Andrew Burton
61 W Narragansett
Newport, RI 
USA02840

http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
+401 965-5260

> On Apr 28, 2017, at 18:36, Josh Muckley via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Anybody have any thoughts on the parasailor?
> 
> http://www.parasailor.com/us/products/parasailor.html
> 
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
> 
>> On Apr 28, 2017 7:41 AM, "Kevin Deluzio via CnC-List" 
>>  wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> This is my second season with my new to me 1980 30-1. I would like 
>> to rig it for a spinnaker this year. Not interested in racing with one, but 
>> I like the idea of using it for light winds downwind sailing. So I have to 
>> install a block for the pole lift and I’m wondering where to install it. In 
>> the C manual it shows the pole lift at 22’-0” above the ‘black line’ at 
>> base of mast. But I don’t have a black line on my mast, not at the base 
>> (which I assume is around the height of boom?) nor at the top of my mast. 
>> Does anyone know where I would locate these black lines? or the height of 
>> the topping lift from some other reference point? My second question is 
>> where to mount the pole downhaul (foreguy) - a? Thanks for this.
>> 
>> By the way, love the list, such a great source of information. And here’s to 
>> all the other C owners out there who’s arms are a sore as mine this time 
>> of year as we get these boats ready for launch.
>> 
>> 
>> Kevin Deluzio
>> S/V Solevento
>> C #641
>> Kingston, ON
>> ___
>> 
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish 
>> to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
>> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>> 
>> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish 
> to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List spinnaker rig

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Others have expressed their appreciation for an asymmetric spinnacker which
I also echo.  All of their points are valid, however you may find that the
effort involved with setting the A-sym just isn't worth the mild
improvement in speed/performance over an oversized headsail and whisker
pole.  Many of the parts required for a whisker pole are the same as that
for a spinnaker pole and some of the functions of a spinnaker pole can be
accomplished with a whisker pole.  The downside to an A-sym is that in
order to jibe you have to either pull the clew in between the headstay and
the spinnaker luff or on the outside of the spinnaker luff.  Either way
this maneuver can be tricky and is a good way to earn yourself a spinnaker
wrap on the headstay.  I've also found that typically the deepest I can
steadily fly my a-sym is 150°.  If I pole out my 145 headsail I can
accomplish nearly the same performance at the same point of sail.  True
downwind sailing is best achieved with a true symmetrical spinnaker, but
the tough question is, "Just because you can point deeper downwind, are you
making a faster VMG or CS?"  Do you have enough crew and hands to
successfully handle a symmetrical spinnaker, or any spinnaker for that
matter?

Having a pole of an type is nice if you decide to lift things on/off the
foredeck such as a dingy.  Either a whisker pole or spinnaker pole will
require a track and ring on the mast to hold one end of the pole, a rope to
lift/hold the pole horizontal (topping lift), a rope to prevent the sail
from flying up (a downhaul).

I installed a Furlex Furler years ago and simply cannot rave loudly enough
about the quality and engineering which I experienced.  Consider the mast
exit sheave for your topping lift.

http://www.seldenmast.com/index.php?id=4691
Page 25, sheave boxes

Since these sheave boxes will cause 1 or 2 more lines to run inside of the
mast you'll need mast exits.  Again, Selden has innovative solutions called
slot fittings also found on page 25.

Any type of spinnaker should be hauled higher and hopefully forward of the
headsail.   Assuming that you already have a second sheave at the top of
the mast, a typical furler setup will prevent the headsail from reaching
the sheave boxes.  Selden makes a crain for holding the spin halyard block
forward of the headsail halyard which you might also find useful to prevent
jams and snags on the swivel and headstay.

Attaching the topping lift to the pole:  If a spin-pole then there is a
bridle which positions the topping life in the middle of the pole.  This
bridle is mirrored on the bottom for the downhaul.  If it's a whisker pole
then the topping lift is attached as near to the end of the largest section
with a strap and mirrored on the bottom for the downhaul.  In either case
the topping lift sheave box should be installed high enough that you don't
create too sharp of an angle to the pole.  Basically as high as possible
but avoid going lower than that which would create a 45° angle or less.
You want to pull up more than aft.  With a simple deck fitting or deck
bridle you can even use the topping lift to fly tri-sails in stormy
weather.  With that in mind you might consider deck fitting placement
before deciding on a final height for your topping lift sheave box.

This deck fitting can be where you attach the downhaul.  In my experience
you'll simply have a turning block attached to the deck fitting and a
turning block on the rail.  With the pole all the way forward to the
headstay your downhaul will run nearly vertical from its own attachment on
the poll (bridle or end fitting, spinnaker or whisker pole respectively),
down to the turning block, over to the rail, back to some cleat near the
cockpit.  Placement of the rail turning block is dependent on the clear
passage to the final destination, which means that you could place the
second turning block inboard of the rail or even on the cabin top if
desired.  Typically only hand tight is needed so winches and fancy jammers
are unnecessary.  You could of course run the downhaul, similar to a
furling line, on stantion fairleads.

As for black lines, they are used to show to race committee and other
racers that your sails don't extend past the length and height for which
the boat was handycapped - luff and foot length. Top of the mast and aft
end of the boom.  I've never noticed a black tape at the bottom of the
mast.  It seems redundant since the lowest point which you can place the
mainsail tack is typically fixed at the boom attachment.  Likewise for the
boom - no black tape towards the mast, just the aft end.  That being said,
some boats have been designed with a sliding boom track which allows
raising and lowering the boom on the mast.  I suppose in this case you
would need a lower tape on the mast.  That lower tape would be at the
lowest point where the tack could ever be.  In your case I would measure 22
feet above the boom and then consider all of my previously stated points on
sheave 

Re: Stus-List spinnaker rig

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Anybody have any thoughts on the parasailor?

http://www.parasailor.com/us/products/parasailor.html

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD

On Apr 28, 2017 7:41 AM, "Kevin Deluzio via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> Hi All,
> This is my second season with my new to me 1980 30-1. I would like
> to rig it for a spinnaker this year. Not interested in racing with one, but
> I like the idea of using it for light winds downwind sailing. So I have to
> install a block for the pole lift and I’m wondering where to install it. In
> the C manual it shows the pole lift at 22’-0” above the ‘black line’ at
> base of mast. But I don’t have a black line on my mast, not at the base
> (which I assume is around the height of boom?) nor at the top of my mast.
> Does anyone know where I would locate these black lines? or the height of
> the topping lift from some other reference point? My second question is
> where to mount the pole downhaul (foreguy) - a? Thanks for this.
>
> By the way, love the list, such a great source of information. And here’s
> to all the other C owners out there who’s arms are a sore as mine this
> time of year as we get these boats ready for launch.
>
>
> Kevin Deluzio
> S/V Solevento
> C #641
> Kingston, ON
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List spinnaker rig

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

My thru-the-mast fitting is located about 3 feet above the spreaders. The 
downhaul is mid deck (about 2 feet forward of the cabin) on a folding pad-eye. 
I have a block there and the line runs back along the cabin (one fairlead at 
the front/side of the dorade box and another at the rear) to a rope clutch next 
to the companionway. The uphaul exits the side of the mast to a block at the 
mast base and then a turning block (along with the main halyard) back to the 
three clutches.

 

However, if you are not planning on racing, I would rig a pole ring on the 
mast, get a pole, and get an asymmetrical chute. That way, you can easily run 
the chute from a block at the bow when reaching and use the pole to put the 
tack of the spinnaker out to weather when running. Best of both worlds and a 
lot less fuss than a sheet/guy arrangement and uphaul/downhaul for the pole.

 

Gary  30-1 #593

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Michael 
Brown via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 11:28 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Michael Brown <m...@tkg.ca>
Subject: Re: Stus-List spinnaker rig

 

I will be prepping my mast next week and could take measurements. I doubt you 
would
want to mount a normal block on the front of the mast if you are carrying an 
overlapping
headsail. It will rub and maybe catch on every tack. The 30-1 factory spinnaker 
uphaul
fitting was a feedthrough with less to catch.

While far from optimum if you are looking to try some light wind downwind 
cruising you
could try it with a simple fixed setup. I have seen some boats use a fixed ring 
to mount
the spinnaker pole to the mast and a similar ring further up with a line looped 
through it
for the uphaul. It doesn't adjust much under load, but that may be fine for 
you. It is also
cheap and won't snag your headsail. You will need a downhaul / foreguy. The can 
work
from a block on the toerail, maybe a forward eye if you have one mounted. I use 
a block
on the base of the mast, fix the line on the starboard side of the mast, up to 
a block on
the spinnaker bridle, then down to a block on the port side of the mast and 
then to the
cockpit. Somewhat strange but it allows sheeting the pole forward and back 
without
having to adjust the downhaul.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1
 

Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 07:41:02 -0400 
From: Kevin Deluzio <kevin.delu...@gmail.com <mailto:kevin.delu...@gmail.com> > 

Hi All, 
This is my second season with my new to me 1980 30-1. I would like to rig 
it for a spinnaker this year. Not interested in racing with one, but I like the 
idea of using it for light winds downwind sailing. So I have to install a block 
for the pole lift and I?m wondering where to install it. In the C manual it 
shows the pole lift at 22?-0? above the ?black line? at base of mast. But I 
don?t have a black line on my mast, not at the base (which I assume is around 
the height of boom?) nor at the top of my mast. Does anyone know where I would 
locate these black lines? or the height of the topping lift from some other 
reference point? My second question is where to mount the pole downhaul 
(foreguy) - a? Thanks for this. 

By the way, love the list, such a great source of information. And here?s to 
all the other C owners out there who?s arms are a sore as mine this time of 
year as we get these boats ready for launch. 


Kevin Deluzio 
S/V Solevento 
C #641 
Kingston, ON 

___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List spinnaker rig

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Kevin,

First, the elevation of the exit/block for the pole lift is not critical.
 +/- 2-4 feet should be OK.

Second, many of the older models had a "donut" on the forward side of the
mast for a pole lift exit.  Simply a hole with a round metal washer-like
fitting.

My 35-1 has one of the donuts but I didn't want the friction of the line
turning over a fixed point.  I installed an exit block from Rig Rite.
Scroll down the link below to the NGA-25 block.

http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/SparParts/Exit_blocks.php#Single Exit Blocks

Installation is a bit onerous but the result is worthwhile.  If you choose
to install an exit block, you need to verify whether your mast has an
internal conduit for wiring.  It would not be good to cut through your
wiring.

As far as the downhaul, the ideal attachment point is halfway between the
bow stem and mast.  I installed a Wichard folding padeye with an aluminum
backing plate on the foredeck.

I use a double downhaul system which may be too complex for your needs.
That is, the downhaul sheets run down either side of the boat to camcleats
on either side of the cabin.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 6:41 AM, Kevin Deluzio via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
> This is my second season with my new to me 1980 30-1. I would like
> to rig it for a spinnaker this year. Not interested in racing with one, but
> I like the idea of using it for light winds downwind sailing. So I have to
> install a block for the pole lift and I’m wondering where to install it. In
> the C manual it shows the pole lift at 22’-0” above the ‘black line’ at
> base of mast. But I don’t have a black line on my mast, not at the base
> (which I assume is around the height of boom?) nor at the top of my mast.
> Does anyone know where I would locate these black lines? or the height of
> the topping lift from some other reference point? My second question is
> where to mount the pole downhaul (foreguy) - a? Thanks for this.
>
> By the way, love the list, such a great source of information. And here’s
> to all the other C owners out there who’s arms are a sore as mine this
> time of year as we get these boats ready for launch.
>
>
> Kevin Deluzio
> S/V Solevento
> C #641
> Kingston, ON
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List spinnaker rig

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I will be prepping my mast next week and could take measurements. I doubt you 
would
want to mount a normal block on the front of the mast if you are carrying an 
overlapping
headsail. It will rub and maybe catch on every tack. The 30-1 factory spinnaker 
uphaul
fitting was a feedthrough with less to catch.

While far from optimum if you are looking to try some light wind downwind 
cruising you
could try it with a simple fixed setup. I have seen some boats use a fixed ring 
to mount
the spinnaker pole to the mast and a similar ring further up with a line looped 
through it
for the uphaul. It doesn't adjust much under load, but that may be fine for 
you. It is also
cheap and won't snag your headsail. You will need a downhaul / foreguy. The can 
work
from a block on the toerail, maybe a forward eye if you have one mounted. I use 
a block
on the base of the mast, fix the line on the starboard side of the mast, up to 
a block on
the spinnaker bridle, then down to a block on the port side of the mast and 
then to the
cockpit. Somewhat strange but it allows sheeting the pole forward and back 
without
having to adjust the downhaul.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1
 

Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 07:41:02 -0400 
From: Kevin Deluzio  

Hi All,  
     This is my second season with my new to me 1980 30-1. I would like to rig 
it for a spinnaker this year. Not interested in racing with one, but I like the 
idea of using it for light winds downwind sailing. So I have to install a block 
for the pole lift and I?m wondering where to install it. In the C manual it 
shows the pole lift at 22?-0? above the ?black line? at base of mast. But I 
don?t have a black line on my mast, not at the base (which I assume is around 
the height of boom?) nor at the top of my mast. Does anyone know where I would 
locate these black lines? or the height of the topping lift from some other 
reference point? My second question is where to mount the pole downhaul 
(foreguy) - a? Thanks for this.  
 
By the way, love the list, such a great source of information. And here?s to 
all the other C owners out there who?s arms are a sore as mine this time of 
year as we get these boats ready for launch. 
 
 
Kevin Deluzio 
S/V Solevento 
C #641 
Kingston, ON 
___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List spinnaker rig

[Jerome Tauber via CnC-List]

I'm sure you are going to hear this many times but if you don't race why not go 
with an asymmetric spinnaker.  No pole, no down haul and no lift.  Much easier 
to fly and better for reaching in light wind.  Jerry J  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 28, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Kevin Deluzio via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi All, 
>This is my second season with my new to me 1980 30-1. I would like to rig 
> it for a spinnaker this year. Not interested in racing with one, but I like 
> the idea of using it for light winds downwind sailing. So I have to install a 
> block for the pole lift and I’m wondering where to install it. In the C 
> manual it shows the pole lift at 22’-0” above the ‘black line’ at base of 
> mast. But I don’t have a black line on my mast, not at the base (which I 
> assume is around the height of boom?) nor at the top of my mast. Does anyone 
> know where I would locate these black lines? or the height of the topping 
> lift from some other reference point? My second question is where to mount 
> the pole downhaul (foreguy) - a? Thanks for this. 
> 
> By the way, love the list, such a great source of information. And here’s to 
> all the other C owners out there who’s arms are a sore as mine this time of 
> year as we get these boats ready for launch.
> 
> 
> Kevin Deluzio
> S/V Solevento
> C #641
> Kingston, ON
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish 
> to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Stus-List spinnaker rig

[Kevin Deluzio via CnC-List]

Hi All, 
This is my second season with my new to me 1980 30-1. I would like to 
rig it for a spinnaker this year. Not interested in racing with one, but I like 
the idea of using it for light winds downwind sailing. So I have to install a 
block for the pole lift and I’m wondering where to install it. In the C 
manual it shows the pole lift at 22’-0” above the ‘black line’ at base of mast. 
But I don’t have a black line on my mast, not at the base (which I assume is 
around the height of boom?) nor at the top of my mast. Does anyone know where I 
would locate these black lines? or the height of the topping lift from some 
other reference point? My second question is where to mount the pole downhaul 
(foreguy) - a? Thanks for this. 

By the way, love the list, such a great source of information. And here’s to 
all the other C owners out there who’s arms are a sore as mine this time of 
year as we get these boats ready for launch.


Kevin Deluzio
S/V Solevento
C #641
Kingston, ON
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!