Re: [cobirds] Re: ID help requested - Spatula hybrid - Cottonwood Hollow (Larimer)
Check out photos online for Australasian Shoveler. Adult male has a white facial crescent. Nick Komar Fort Collins CO > On Mar 25, 2019, at 3:50 PM, Sean Walters > wrote: > > Well, taking that idea a step further, I have seen a few male Northern > Shovelers with limited "white-face-crescents" (they were barely present in > the birds I can recall). Birds of North America states (for Alternate I, male > NOSH) > > Head and neck black with iridescent green medially. Some birds show a partial > white crescent on face similar in shape and location to that found on adult > male Blue-winged Teal. > > Here are a few examples of birds displaying varying amounts of this > > https://ebird.org/view/checklist/S53783523 > https://ebird.org/view/checklist/S50151354 > https://ebird.org/view/checklist/S43315377 > https://ebird.org/view/checklist/S15844033 > https://ebird.org/view/checklist/S26835905 > > Maybe there is a white-face-crescent gene hiding in Northern Shoveler. > > Sean Walters > Fort Collins, CO > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Colorado Birds" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to cobirds+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to cobirds@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/CAErW0v72Bj2TtLEdDVbV6g3vHY7DHn82gw-zz080HKYqsq6Nwg%40mail.gmail.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Colorado Birds" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cobirds+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to cobirds@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/DB8178ED-32F8-4DA8-8837-7C6F8297149A%40comcast.net. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [cobirds] Re: ID help requested - Spatula hybrid - Cottonwood Hollow (Larimer)
Well, taking that idea a step further, I have seen a few male Northern Shovelers with limited "white-face-crescents" (they were barely present in the birds I can recall). Birds of North America states (for Alternate I, male NOSH) Head and neck black with iridescent green medially. Some birds show a partial white crescent on face similar in shape and location to that found on adult male Blue-winged Teal. Here are a few examples of birds displaying varying amounts of this https://ebird.org/view/checklist/S53783523 https://ebird.org/view/checklist/S50151354 https://ebird.org/view/checklist/S43315377 https://ebird.org/view/checklist/S15844033 https://ebird.org/view/checklist/S26835905 Maybe there is a white-face-crescent gene hiding in Northern Shoveler. Sean Walters Fort Collins, CO -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Colorado Birds" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cobirds+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to cobirds@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/CAErW0v72Bj2TtLEdDVbV6g3vHY7DHn82gw-zz080HKYqsq6Nwg%40mail.gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [cobirds] Re: ID help requested - Spatula hybrid - Cottonwood Hollow (Larimer)
Intriguing, nice investigation Sean. A search on eBird's Macaulay Library also shows nearly all male Northern Shoveler x Cinnamon Teal hybrids with a white crescent and rufous breast area (a more understandable trait) like this bird. https://ebird.org/media/catalog?taxonCode=x00630=Cinnamon%20Teal%20x%20Northern%20Shoveler%20(hybrid)%20-%20Spatula%20cyanoptera%20x%20clypeata I suppose this could mean one of the two parent species (Northern Shoveler or Cinnamon Teal) has a repressed version (unexpressed gene) of a Blue-winged Teal's white crescent somewhere in its genome, while the other parent species contribute's some transcription factor that initiates that gene's expression. Fascinating. David Tonnessen Colorado Springs -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Colorado Birds" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cobirds+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to cobirds@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/d2cb805c-23b5-4fbf-9866-41501ef36b03%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [cobirds] Re: ID help requested - Spatula hybrid - Cottonwood Hollow (Larimer)
A little "Googling" came up with a few interesting leads. https://www.flickr.com/groups/444365@N25/discuss/72157629157445778/ http://www.1birds.com/hybrid-teals.htm http://birdhybrids.blogspot.com/2014/04/cinnamon-teal-x-northern-shoveler.html A nicely done paper that includes photos of a known-parentage, captive Northern Shoveler x Cinnamon Teal. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324330231_Hybrid_Northern_Shoveler_x_Blue-winged_Teal_on_Schiermonnikoog_Netherlands_in_May_2014_and_identification_and_WP_occurrence Perhaps others can provide more data, but all of these would suggest John's bird is a Northern Shoveler x Cinnamon Teal. Great bird John! Sean Walters Fort Collins, CO -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Colorado Birds" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cobirds+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to cobirds@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/CAErW0v45jBfvWuX7X1MaF2YsDr5c7jMYgrVC5noBcGQXRB8DWQ%40mail.gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [cobirds] Re: ID help requested - Spatula hybrid - Cottonwood Hollow (Larimer)
I'm curious, are there any good sources or studies saying that CITE x NOSH combo can show a white crescent identical to that of BWTE and what causes that gene expression? If not, I'm not sure what leads away from a BWTE x NOSH ID. Just my thoughts. David Tonnessen Colorado Springs -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Colorado Birds" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cobirds+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to cobirds@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/982c7562-d825-40d4-a120-145173a210c7%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [cobirds] Re: ID help requested - Spatula hybrid - Cottonwood Hollow (Larimer)
Yep--I agree. B-w TealxShoveler hybrid. Dave Silverman Rye CO From: cobirds@googlegroups.com on behalf of Nicholas Komar Sent: Monday, March 25, 2019 9:22 AM To: fiddlen...@aol.com Cc: joe.kippe...@gmail.com; Colorado Birds Subject: Re: [cobirds] Re: ID help requested - Spatula hybrid - Cottonwood Hollow (Larimer) Blue-winged Teal can have bright red eyes (see photos on Birds-eye App). Looks good for BWTE x northern shoveler. Nick Komar Fort Collins CO On Mar 25, 2019, at 2:59 AM, 'Deborah Carstensen' via Colorado Birds mailto:cobirds@googlegroups.com>> wrote: I’ve never seen a cinnamon teal with a crescent on its face. I would go towards blue winged teal. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 24, 2019, at 9:09 PM, joe.kippe...@gmail.com<mailto:joe.kippe...@gmail.com> wrote: I agree with Michael... The red eye also leads me to think that Cinnamon Teal is in the mix somewhere. Shovelers have yellow eyes and Blue Winged Teal have black eyes, so I don't see where else the red eye could come from. Also, Blue-winged Teal x Shoveler hybrids normally don't have rusty flanks. I would call it a Cinnamon Teal x Northern Shoveler hybrid, but that's just my opinion. I have no idea whether it's possible for all three species to be a part of this birds background. I love hybrids - thanks for the photo! Joe Kipper Fort Collins On Sunday, March 24, 2019 at 2:47:21 PM UTC-6, John Shenot wrote: This morning at 10:30 there was a hybrid duck in the big NW pond at Cottonwood Hollow, the pond with the bench and interpretive sign overlooking it. I added photos to my eBird checklist: https://ebird.org/view/checklist/S54174768. This is probably a common hybrid but I know next to nothing about hybrids. It seems to me that we (birders) just assume that if a bird has familiar traits of two species, it must be a hybrid of those two species. But this individual has traits (I think) of Northern Shoveler, Cinnamon Teal, and Blue-winged Teal. I'd be very appreciative if somebody could explain, offline if necessary, why it is in fact an AxB and not an AxC or BxC. Or perhaps it is unidentifiable. If I knew the answer I wouldn't be asking... John Shenot Fort Collins, CO -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Colorado Birds" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cobirds+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<mailto:cobirds+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. To post to this group, send email to cobirds@googlegroups.com<mailto:cobirds@googlegroups.com>. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/1b2bc2fc-a613-41ba-9deb-50d98e20fc6f%40googlegroups.com<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/1b2bc2fc-a613-41ba-9deb-50d98e20fc6f%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email_source=footer>. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Colorado Birds" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cobirds+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<mailto:cobirds+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. To post to this group, send email to cobirds@googlegroups.com<mailto:cobirds@googlegroups.com>. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/59ABC0F9-1A37-429C-8FEF-0DF5628929CA%40aol.com<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/59ABC0F9-1A37-429C-8FEF-0DF5628929CA%40aol.com?utm_medium=email_source=footer>. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Colorado Birds" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cobirds+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<mailto:cobirds+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. To post to this group, send email to cobirds@googlegroups.com<mailto:cobirds@googlegroups.com>. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/8AFB93F8-72E4-46CD-AFDE-1EFCF77A834E%40comcast.net<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/8AFB93F8-72E4-46CD-AFDE-1EFCF77A834E%40comcast.net?utm_medium=email_source=footer>. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Colorado Birds" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cobirds+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to cobirds@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/BYAPR08MB4774441D72DFE1F7F2A3E0BBDE5E0%40BYAPR08MB4774.namprd08.prod.outlook.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [cobirds] Re: ID help requested - Spatula hybrid - Cottonwood Hollow (Larimer)
Blue-winged Teal can have bright red eyes (see photos on Birds-eye App). Looks good for BWTE x northern shoveler. Nick Komar Fort Collins CO > On Mar 25, 2019, at 2:59 AM, 'Deborah Carstensen' via Colorado Birds > wrote: > > I’ve never seen a cinnamon teal with a crescent on its face. I would go > towards blue winged teal. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 24, 2019, at 9:09 PM, joe.kippe...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> I agree with Michael... >> The red eye also leads me to think that Cinnamon Teal is in the mix >> somewhere. Shovelers have yellow eyes and Blue Winged Teal have black eyes, >> so I don't see where else the red eye could come from. Also, Blue-winged >> Teal x Shoveler hybrids normally don't have rusty flanks. I would call it a >> Cinnamon Teal x Northern Shoveler hybrid, but that's just my opinion. I have >> no idea whether it's possible for all three species to be a part of this >> birds background. >> I love hybrids - thanks for the photo! >> Joe Kipper >> Fort Collins >> >>> On Sunday, March 24, 2019 at 2:47:21 PM UTC-6, John Shenot wrote: >>> This morning at 10:30 there was a hybrid duck in the big NW pond at >>> Cottonwood Hollow, the pond with the bench and interpretive sign >>> overlooking it. I added photos to my eBird checklist: >>> https://ebird.org/view/checklist/S54174768. >>> >>> This is probably a common hybrid but I know next to nothing about hybrids. >>> It seems to me that we (birders) just assume that if a bird has familiar >>> traits of two species, it must be a hybrid of those two species. But this >>> individual has traits (I think) of Northern Shoveler, Cinnamon Teal, and >>> Blue-winged Teal. I'd be very appreciative if somebody could explain, >>> offline if necessary, why it is in fact an AxB and not an AxC or BxC. Or >>> perhaps it is unidentifiable. If I knew the answer I wouldn't be asking... >>> >>> John Shenot >>> Fort Collins, CO >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Colorado Birds" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to cobirds+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to cobirds@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/1b2bc2fc-a613-41ba-9deb-50d98e20fc6f%40googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Colorado Birds" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to cobirds+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to cobirds@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/59ABC0F9-1A37-429C-8FEF-0DF5628929CA%40aol.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Colorado Birds" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cobirds+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to cobirds@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/8AFB93F8-72E4-46CD-AFDE-1EFCF77A834E%40comcast.net. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [cobirds] Re: ID help requested - Spatula hybrid - Cottonwood Hollow (Larimer)
I’ve never seen a cinnamon teal with a crescent on its face. I would go towards blue winged teal. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 24, 2019, at 9:09 PM, joe.kippe...@gmail.com wrote: > > I agree with Michael... > The red eye also leads me to think that Cinnamon Teal is in the mix > somewhere. Shovelers have yellow eyes and Blue Winged Teal have black eyes, > so I don't see where else the red eye could come from. Also, Blue-winged Teal > x Shoveler hybrids normally don't have rusty flanks. I would call it a > Cinnamon Teal x Northern Shoveler hybrid, but that's just my opinion. I have > no idea whether it's possible for all three species to be a part of this > birds background. > I love hybrids - thanks for the photo! > Joe Kipper > Fort Collins > >> On Sunday, March 24, 2019 at 2:47:21 PM UTC-6, John Shenot wrote: >> This morning at 10:30 there was a hybrid duck in the big NW pond at >> Cottonwood Hollow, the pond with the bench and interpretive sign overlooking >> it. I added photos to my eBird checklist: >> https://ebird.org/view/checklist/S54174768. >> >> This is probably a common hybrid but I know next to nothing about hybrids. >> It seems to me that we (birders) just assume that if a bird has familiar >> traits of two species, it must be a hybrid of those two species. But this >> individual has traits (I think) of Northern Shoveler, Cinnamon Teal, and >> Blue-winged Teal. I'd be very appreciative if somebody could explain, >> offline if necessary, why it is in fact an AxB and not an AxC or BxC. Or >> perhaps it is unidentifiable. If I knew the answer I wouldn't be asking... >> >> John Shenot >> Fort Collins, CO > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Colorado Birds" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to cobirds+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to cobirds@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/1b2bc2fc-a613-41ba-9deb-50d98e20fc6f%40googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Colorado Birds" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cobirds+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to cobirds@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/59ABC0F9-1A37-429C-8FEF-0DF5628929CA%40aol.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
