Re: Catalina scroll view issues

[Redler Eyal via Cocoa-dev]

>> I, for one, wasn't able to reproduce it on the 5 machines I was able to put 
>> my hands on.
> 
> Although I have not seen a *reproducible* case either, I have seen that it is 
> much more likely to occur in text views with hundreds of lines or rows, so 
> you should try such in your tests.

My app is a word-processor so that is basically all it does. I tried it with 
documents of varying lengths from 2 pages to 700 pages and was never able to 
see the issue. Since at one point I thought the issue was specific to certain 
documents I asked my clients to send me these specific documents but I couldn't 
reproduce it with these documents either. On the other hand, a simple document 
I created on my machine and set to the users to test was also showing the 
issues on their machines so I could pretty much rule out that this is a 
document specific issue.

> Also, it is possible that I have not seen it at all since I replaced my 2013 
> MacBook Air with a new MacBook Air about a month ago.  Another possible 
> factor is that this Mac is enrolled in the Apple Beta Software program, so 
> maybe Apple gave us a Christmas present and silently fixed in 10.15.3 as one 
> of their unspecified bug fixes.

Perhaps it is fixed on 15.3, I'm unable to check it myself (since I never see 
the issue) and I dare not ask of my users to submit themselves to installing a 
beta. BTW, could you share a screenshot of the issue as you saw it?

Eyal


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Re: Catalina scroll view issues

[Redler Eyal via Cocoa-dev]

> turning it on did not cause the issue to show up on Mohave
>> ...
>> I, for one, wasn't able to reproduce it on the 5 machines I was able to put 
>> my hands on.
>   Curious, how were you able to verify that turning on copyOnScroll in 
> your app and running it on Mojave did not reproduce the problem if you 
> couldn’t reproduce the problem on Catalina on the machines you had access to? 
>  Just curious.

I created a special build of the app with copyOnScroll turned back on and then 
tested it on my machine running Mohave (works just as well) and Catalina (again 
- no issues). I then sent it to a group of my clients who were experiencing the 
issue on Catalina, they reported back to me that the issue is still there.

I also did a similar test with turning responsive scrolling off, same results. 
I also tried a build where you can turn off drawing the document view 
background and/or drawing of the pages themselves and the issue was still there.

Eyal


> —Rob
> 
> 
>> On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:34 AM, Eyal Redler  wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> On 30 Dec 2019, at 2:09, Rob Petrovec via Cocoa-dev 
>>> mailto:cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I honestly think this is fall out from copiesOnScroll being deprecated and 
>>> the clip view always behaving as if it was set to true.  My guess is you 
>>> will see the same problems in your apps if you ran them on Mojave with 
>>> copiesOnScroll set to true.  In which case you need to update your app to 
>>> work with copiesOnScroll set to true.  E.g. use layers instead of drawRect.
>> 
>> I agree that this is probably connected to the changes that led to 
>> copiesOnScroll to be deprecated but turning it on did not cause the issue to 
>> show up on Mohave nor did it fix the issue on Catalina. AFAIK drawRect is 
>> not deprecated (yet?) and so my drawing the views, on a mac, using drawRect 
>> is compatible Apple's current guidelines. Nothing old fashioned or 
>> unorthodox in what I'm doing.
>> 
>> My understanding (and hopefully those in the know will correct me if I'm 
>> wrong), with responsive scrolling, copiesOnScroll is not relevant, drawRect 
>> is not called to paint the newly exposed area as you scroll but rather is 
>> called ahead of time for the visible area plus some extra content above and 
>> below. When the user scrolls, the system just copies the bits to the screen 
>> from some offscreen buffer. I believe that since responsive scrolling was 
>> introduced, copiesOnScroll was ignored anyway and was relevant only when 
>> responsive scrolling was turned off.
>> 
>> Last thing to point out, the problem is exclusive to Catalina but it doesn't 
>> effect all users, I don't have any statistics but gathering from the 
>> relatively few reports I've received, it seems to effect only a minority of 
>> users (thank God, this bug really makes me look really bad and I'm 
>> completely helpless against it). I, for one, wasn't able to reproduce it on 
>> the 5 machines I was able to put my hands on.
>> 
>> Eyal
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> —Rob
>>> 
>>> 
 On Dec 29, 2019, at 4:08 PM, Jerome Krinock via Cocoa-dev 
  wrote:
 
 Since installing macOS 10.15, I see blocks of empty text view lines or 
 table view rows often when scrolling through many apps, including file 
 browser windows in Path Finder (cocoatech.com) and, for heaven’s sake, 
 even in BBEdit.
 
 Conclusion: This is not “our” faults.  Thank you, Eyal for submitting this 
 issue to Apple as FB7509033.  Maybe someday… [rant omitted].
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Re: Catalina scroll view issues

[Jerome Krinock via Cocoa-dev]

On 2019 Dec 31, at 00:34, Eyal Redler  wrote:

> I, for one, wasn't able to reproduce it on the 5 machines I was able to put 
> my hands on.

Although I have not seen a *reproducible* case either, I have seen that it is 
much more likely to occur in text views with hundreds of lines or rows, so you 
should try such in your tests.

Also, it is possible that I have not seen it at all since I replaced my 2013 
MacBook Air with a new MacBook Air about a month ago.  Another possible factor 
is that this Mac is enrolled in the Apple Beta Software program, so maybe Apple 
gave us a Christmas present and silently fixed in 10.15.3 as one of their 
unspecified bug fixes.
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Re: Catalina scroll view issues

[Rob Petrovec via Cocoa-dev]

> On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:34 AM, Eyal Redler  wrote:

> Nothing old fashioned or unorthodox in what I'm doing.
drawRect is not deprecated. Correct. However, it is technically old 
fashioned. It is much more efficient to use layers.  Layers can take better 
advantage of the video card especially during animations, and don’t require 
unnecessary redraws if (part of) your view is covered up and then uncovered 
(e.g. during scrolling or windows moving around etc).


> turning it on did not cause the issue to show up on Mohave
> ...
>  I, for one, wasn't able to reproduce it on the 5 machines I was able to put 
> my hands on.
Curious, how were you able to verify that turning on copyOnScroll in 
your app and running it on Mojave did not reproduce the problem if you couldn’t 
reproduce the problem on Catalina on the machines you had access to?  Just 
curious.

—Rob


> On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:34 AM, Eyal Redler  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On 30 Dec 2019, at 2:09, Rob Petrovec via Cocoa-dev 
>> mailto:cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I honestly think this is fall out from copiesOnScroll being deprecated and 
>> the clip view always behaving as if it was set to true.  My guess is you 
>> will see the same problems in your apps if you ran them on Mojave with 
>> copiesOnScroll set to true.  In which case you need to update your app to 
>> work with copiesOnScroll set to true.  E.g. use layers instead of drawRect.
> 
> I agree that this is probably connected to the changes that led to 
> copiesOnScroll to be deprecated but turning it on did not cause the issue to 
> show up on Mohave nor did it fix the issue on Catalina. AFAIK drawRect is not 
> deprecated (yet?) and so my drawing the views, on a mac, using drawRect is 
> compatible Apple's current guidelines. Nothing old fashioned or unorthodox in 
> what I'm doing.
> 
> My understanding (and hopefully those in the know will correct me if I'm 
> wrong), with responsive scrolling, copiesOnScroll is not relevant, drawRect 
> is not called to paint the newly exposed area as you scroll but rather is 
> called ahead of time for the visible area plus some extra content above and 
> below. When the user scrolls, the system just copies the bits to the screen 
> from some offscreen buffer. I believe that since responsive scrolling was 
> introduced, copiesOnScroll was ignored anyway and was relevant only when 
> responsive scrolling was turned off.
> 
> Last thing to point out, the problem is exclusive to Catalina but it doesn't 
> effect all users, I don't have any statistics but gathering from the 
> relatively few reports I've received, it seems to effect only a minority of 
> users (thank God, this bug really makes me look really bad and I'm completely 
> helpless against it). I, for one, wasn't able to reproduce it on the 5 
> machines I was able to put my hands on.
> 
> Eyal
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> —Rob
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 29, 2019, at 4:08 PM, Jerome Krinock via Cocoa-dev 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Since installing macOS 10.15, I see blocks of empty text view lines or 
>>> table view rows often when scrolling through many apps, including file 
>>> browser windows in Path Finder (cocoatech.com) and, for heaven’s sake, even 
>>> in BBEdit.
>>> 
>>> Conclusion: This is not “our” faults.  Thank you, Eyal for submitting this 
>>> issue to Apple as FB7509033.  Maybe someday… [rant omitted].
>>> ___
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