Re: Isolated process for each NSDocument of my app
On 14 Jun 2013, at 03:00, Graham Cox graham@bigpond.com wrote: No offence, but when a programmer says this, all they're doing is revealing their own inexperience. I mean that in a friendly way; I've been there many times myself. There *is* a way, you just have to figure it out (or ask someone to help you figure it out). No offence guy, but seriusly I can’t. We have a compatible UIKit layer which can run on OS X. In order to mantain compatibility I need to handle UIApplication and UIScreen singleton; morehower I need to manage UIAppearance. This thing can’t work on with multiple projects at the same time so in order to work with it I need to isolate each project/UIKit instance/process from the other. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Isolated process for each NSDocument of my app
On Jun 14, 2013, at 1:15 AM, Daniele Margutti m...@danielemargutti.com wrote: No offence guy, but seriusly I can’t. We have a compatible UIKit layer which can run on OS X. In order to mantain compatibility I need to handle UIApplication and UIScreen singleton; morehower I need to manage UIAppearance. This thing can’t work on with multiple projects at the same time so in order to work with it I need to isolate each project/UIKit instance/process from the other. So your response to a problem entirely of your own making is to try to whip a system framework into doing something it is very much not designed to do. Step back and take a deep breath. You need to remove your blinders and rationally analyze your options. AppKit simply does not and will not work the way you want it to. You can't just split code into subprocesses when that code might be sharing untold amounts of state and memory. It would be *astronomically* more difficult to accomplish this than it would be to 1) either fix your UIKit clone or 2) just stop treating the Mac as a second-class citizen and use AppKit natively for your UI. Both of those are under your control; the code within AppKit is not. --Kyle Sluder ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Isolated process for each NSDocument of my app
The model you are mentioning seems a lot like multiple users accessing a database on a remote server. In this analogy, the database is your document. The users accessing that one database are the other apps that are accessing it. On Jun 13, 2013, at 2:29 PM, Daniele Margutti wrote: On 13 Jun 2013, at 20:05, Tom Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote: The best way is to write an application that's stable. The only reason browsers started doing this was because they had to deal with 3rd party code (e.g. flash) that was giving them a terrible reputation for instability. If you're controlling the entire app, you have no reasonable reason to do this. Simply fix your crasher bugs instead. Overall stability is not my reason to evaluate this kind of a architecture; for a particular reason each document should interact with an external singleton class but each singleton must be unique around the app; think about UIApplication on iOS; I need to work with a similar thing so I need to “run” multiple projects and each one must see a single instance of this object. I cannot change this kind for several reason, so an architecture like this could be a great answer to enable multiple documents support in my application. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/zav%40mac.com This email sent to z...@mac.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Isolated process for each NSDocument of my app
On Jun 14, 2013, at 1:15 AM, Daniele Margutti m...@danielemargutti.com wrote: No offence guy, but seriusly I can’t. We have a compatible UIKit layer which can run on OS X. In order to mantain compatibility I need to handle UIApplication and UIScreen singleton; morehower I need to manage UIAppearance. This thing can’t work on with multiple projects at the same time so in order to work with it I need to isolate each project/UIKit instance/process from the other. I’m going to ignore the issue of whether it even makes sense to try to bash code and UI designed for iOS into running on Mac OS. Apps that are ported across platforms by brute force this way rarely work well. At a technical level, I think your best bet is to use state-switching. Use a model where one app instance is active at a time. Each one has its own instances of the singletons (UIApplication, etc.) and when an app instance is active, the singleton accessors like [UIApplication application] return the object matching that app instance. Now you have only one piece of global state, the current-app-instance. What you need to do is switch that appropriately based on which app is going to be running next. The obvious thing is before handing an event, determine which app it’s aimed at (probably based on which app owns the appropriate NSWindow) and set that one. The harder task is to set the current-app when other runloop-based calls happen, like timers and delayed-performs and NSURLConnection delegate calls and so forth. Wrapping all of those APIs would be a real pain. One possible solution is to create a new thread with its own runloop for each app instance, and always run it on that thread. Then in fact you can resolve all your singletons by using the NSThread dictionary to look up state. You just have to handle events by looking up the target app’s thread, posting the event to that thread’s runloop, and then blocking till it completes. (This also avoids trouble with thread-safety because it ensures that only one of those app UI threads can be handling UI events at a time.) This still sounds challenging, but it’ll be a million times easier than trying to run multiple processes. —Jens ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Isolated process for each NSDocument of my app
On Jun 14, 2013, at 11:17 AM, Jens Alfke wrote: This also avoids trouble with thread-safety because it ensures that only one of those app UI threads can be handling UI events at a time. But isn't it still true that many UI-oriented APIs can only be safely called on the main thread, regardless of anything you may do to prevent more than one thread at a time running the UI? -- Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.com http://www.elevated-dev.com/ (303) 722-0567 voice ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Isolated process for each NSDocument of my app
On 14/06/2013, at 6:15 PM, Daniele Margutti m...@danielemargutti.com wrote: No offence guy, but seriusly I can’t. We have a compatible UIKit layer which can run on OS X. In order to mantain compatibility I need to handle UIApplication and UIScreen singleton; morehower I need to manage UIAppearance. This thing can’t work on with multiple projects at the same time so in order to work with it I need to isolate each project/UIKit instance/process from the other. That's exactly the sort of thing I'm referring to - for whatever reason your design is incorrect, so you're now trying to fix that by adding more incorrectness. The split between your controller and view layer is in the wrong place. By refactoring you can replace your view layer by a native OSX one and not attempt to add a layer ON TOP of your view layer to make Mac OSX look like UIKit. While I haven't had much experience on iOS yet, I have made a few simple apps that work across iOS and Mac OS and by and large these share 70% or more of the controller and model code. Most of the view stuff comes from xibs and so in reality there isn't that much code that differs. I would accept that your app is a lot more complicated than mine, but nevertheless the right approach should make cross-platform deployment reasonably straightforward. It's much easier than, say, Windows/Mac cross-platform, at least the whole thing can be in Cocoa. --Graham ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Isolated process for each NSDocument of my app
Hi guys, While I’m making an app (it’s docs based) I would to have a separated process for each opened NSDocument. The main idea is to have the main app which launch a process for each opened NSDocument/NSWindow and forward all messages to foreground window/process. In this case each process is isolated from the others as like with Safari. What’s the best way to accomplish it on OS X? Thanks a lot Daniele ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Isolated process for each NSDocument of my app
On Jun 13, 2013, at 3:52 AM, Daniele Margutti m...@danielemargutti.com wrote: In this case each process is isolated from the others as like with Safari. What’s the best way to accomplish it on OS X? There is no [public] support for running parts of the GUI of an app in separate processes. It requires things like sending events over IPC and maintaining shared-memory window/view buffers. I’m somewhat familiar with the way Chrome does it, having worked on Chrome for a few years, and it is very complex and messy. (You can check out the Chromium source and look through it if you want.) I’m sure Safari’s implementation is too, unless they’re using some hypothetical private AppKit APIs for cross-process events/views. The short answer is that this would be very difficult to do, and you’ve have to become intimately familiar with XPC, the low levels of AppKit event handling, CoreGraphics, shared memory, etc. etc. On the plus side, if you accomplished it and made it into a reusable framework, you’d be a hero. —Jens ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Isolated process for each NSDocument of my app
The best way is to write an application that's stable. The only reason browsers started doing this was because they had to deal with 3rd party code (e.g. flash) that was giving them a terrible reputation for instability. If you're controlling the entire app, you have no reasonable reason to do this. Simply fix your crasher bugs instead. On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Daniele Margutti m...@danielemargutti.comwrote: Hi guys, While I’m making an app (it’s docs based) I would to have a separated process for each opened NSDocument. The main idea is to have the main app which launch a process for each opened NSDocument/NSWindow and forward all messages to foreground window/process. In this case each process is isolated from the others as like with Safari. What’s the best way to accomplish it on OS X? Thanks a lot Daniele ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/tom.davie%40gmail.com This email sent to tom.da...@gmail.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Isolated process for each NSDocument of my app
On 13 Jun 2013, at 20:05, Tom Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote: The best way is to write an application that's stable. The only reason browsers started doing this was because they had to deal with 3rd party code (e.g. flash) that was giving them a terrible reputation for instability. If you're controlling the entire app, you have no reasonable reason to do this. Simply fix your crasher bugs instead. Overall stability is not my reason to evaluate this kind of a architecture; for a particular reason each document should interact with an external singleton class but each singleton must be unique around the app; think about UIApplication on iOS; I need to work with a similar thing so I need to “run” multiple projects and each one must see a single instance of this object. I cannot change this kind for several reason, so an architecture like this could be a great answer to enable multiple documents support in my application. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Isolated process for each NSDocument of my app
On Jun 13, 2013, at 11:29 AM, Daniele Margutti m...@danielemargutti.com wrote: Overall stability is not my reason to evaluate this kind of a architecture; for a particular reason each document should interact with an external singleton class but each singleton must be unique around the app; think about UIApplication on iOS; I need to work with a similar thing so I need to “run” multiple projects and each one must see a single instance of this object. I cannot change this kind for several reason, so an architecture like this could be a great answer to enable multiple documents support in my application. I think you’ll find it easier to refactor your code to avoid depending on a global/singleton*, than to implement low-level system functionality to split your app across processes. —Jens * which you should do anyway; that’s a bad design. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Isolated process for each NSDocument of my app
On 13 Jun 2013, at 21:04, Jens Alfke j...@mooseyard.com wrote: On Jun 13, 2013, at 11:29 AM, Daniele Margutti m...@danielemargutti.com wrote: Overall stability is not my reason to evaluate this kind of a architecture; for a particular reason each document should interact with an external singleton class but each singleton must be unique around the app; think about UIApplication on iOS; I need to work with a similar thing so I need to “run” multiple projects and each one must see a single instance of this object. I cannot change this kind for several reason, so an architecture like this could be a great answer to enable multiple documents support in my application. I think you’ll find it easier to refactor your code to avoid depending on a global/singleton*, than to implement low-level system functionality to split your app across processes. That’s not possible due to some important reason I can’t explain here :( Belive me, if it was the right way I would have used them :( ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Isolated process for each NSDocument of my app
On 13 Jun 2013, at 20:29, Daniele Margutti m...@danielemargutti.com wrote: On 13 Jun 2013, at 20:05, Tom Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote: The best way is to write an application that's stable. The only reason browsers started doing this was because they had to deal with 3rd party code (e.g. flash) that was giving them a terrible reputation for instability. If you're controlling the entire app, you have no reasonable reason to do this. Simply fix your crasher bugs instead. Overall stability is not my reason to evaluate this kind of a architecture; for a particular reason each document should interact with an external singleton class but each singleton must be unique around the app; think about UIApplication on iOS; I need to work with a similar thing so I need to “run” multiple projects and each one must see a single instance of this object. I cannot change this kind for several reason, so an architecture like this could be a great answer to enable multiple documents support in my application. So really, what you're saying is Someone stuck a singleton where a singleton shouldn't be (anywhere at all), and now I'm screwed that I need more than one of them. Your solution to this should be to not use a singleton (ever), rather than to try and hack about the application structure to carry on using a singleton. Tom Davie ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Isolated process for each NSDocument of my app
On Thu, Jun 13, 2013, at 12:06 PM, Daniele Margutti wrote: That’s not possible due to some important reason I can’t explain here :( It's far more possible than trying to slice portions of your app into subprocesses. --Kyle Sluder ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Isolated process for each NSDocument of my app
On 14/06/2013, at 5:06 AM, Daniele Margutti m...@danielemargutti.com wrote: That’s not possible No offence, but when a programmer says this, all they're doing is revealing their own inexperience. I mean that in a friendly way; I've been there many times myself. There *is* a way, you just have to figure it out (or ask someone to help you figure it out). --Graham ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
