Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Alex Zavatone]

Oh and I just ran a few of my iOS apps in this rather tight config on 10.11.3 
and Xcode 7.3.1 and it's really pretty fast.  I certainly was surprised.

We're talking 1 project that includes 2 projects that links to a framework that 
links to pjSIP and builds that as a static lib.

It's freaking fast and besides a little bit of "not really snappy UI", this is 
awesome.

When compared to building from a clean build on a 15" Retina MBP, it's only 5 
seconds slower and I've only given the VM 4 cores and 5 GB of RAM and it's not 
running off the SSD yet.

I'm even able to send a voice call to the simulator running on the virtualized 
OS and it's real time.  This is really really nice.  

I guess what I'm saying is, "keep all your old versions of OS and Xcode in VMs 
so you can use them when you want."  

This is surprisingly nice if you need to switch back to older OSes and Xcode 
combinations every once and a while.




On May 7, 2016, at 9:41 AM, Alex Zavatone wrote:

> Just to follow up, on what I said I'd do. I've finally updated one of my VMs 
> to 10.11.3 and Xcode 7.3.1.
> 
> 
> I'm running this in VMWare 5.0.5 of all things off of the 17" thunderbolt 
> laptop with 16 GB of RAM, a 1TB internal drive, a 480 GB SSD and an 8 TB 
> external Thunderbolt drive.  
> 
> The VMs are on the external 8 TB Thunderbolt.
> 
> The current VMs I have available are as follows:
> 
> Mac OS X 10.8.5 64-bit
> Mac OS X 10.8.5 64-bit small image
> Mac OS X 10.9.x 64-bit small image
> Mac OS X 10.11.x 64-bit small image
> 
> Each of these is about 55 GB.
> 
> Each one accesses a shared volume that I can put my dev material on and this 
> is generally an SSD or a RAM drive shared from another computer. 4GB/s is 
> nice throughput to have.
> 
> The small images are images that VMWare allows to expand as needed.
> By having each of these, all i need to do to upgrade is to take the latest 
> one, duplicate it, update the OS with a full installer and if the process 
> borks, all I have lost is that duplicated VM.  All of my previous images are 
> undamaged.
> 
> In fact, the update to 10.11 cratered twice, until I copied everything to 
> where it needs to be, then it worked like a charm.  I put the Xcode installer 
> on another drive, mounted it and all went well.  
> 
> Screenshot of the mess:
> http://i.imgur.com/nALvcjY.png
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On May 6, 2016, at 12:33 AM, Charles Srstka wrote:
> 
>>> On May 5, 2016, at 9:39 PM, Richard Charles  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 On May 5, 2016, at 6:07 PM, Richard Charles  wrote:
 
 Can you run this application?
 
 “OpenGL Extensions Viewer"
 
 http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/
 
 I could never get an app that uses OpenGL to work with a virtual machine.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On May 5, 2016, at 8:16 PM, Charles Srstka  
 wrote:
 
 Seems to run all right in VMWare Fusion on my machine.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Amazing.
>>> 
>>> Click the “Tests” tab and click the “Test” button in the lower left corner.
>>> 
>>> Does it work?
>>> 
>>> --Richard Charles
>> 
>> I got an image of a rotating cube.
>> 
>> Charles
>> 
>> 
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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Alex Zavatone]

Just to follow up, on what I said I'd do. I've finally updated one of my VMs to 
10.11.3 and Xcode 7.3.1.


I'm running this in VMWare 5.0.5 of all things off of the 17" thunderbolt 
laptop with 16 GB of RAM, a 1TB internal drive, a 480 GB SSD and an 8 TB 
external Thunderbolt drive.  

The VMs are on the external 8 TB Thunderbolt.

The current VMs I have available are as follows:

Mac OS X 10.8.5 64-bit
Mac OS X 10.8.5 64-bit small image
Mac OS X 10.9.x 64-bit small image
Mac OS X 10.11.x 64-bit small image

Each of these is about 55 GB.

Each one accesses a shared volume that I can put my dev material on and this is 
generally an SSD or a RAM drive shared from another computer. 4GB/s is nice 
throughput to have.

The small images are images that VMWare allows to expand as needed.
By having each of these, all i need to do to upgrade is to take the latest one, 
duplicate it, update the OS with a full installer and if the process borks, all 
I have lost is that duplicated VM.  All of my previous images are undamaged.

In fact, the update to 10.11 cratered twice, until I copied everything to where 
it needs to be, then it worked like a charm.  I put the Xcode installer on 
another drive, mounted it and all went well.  

Screenshot of the mess:
http://i.imgur.com/nALvcjY.png




On May 6, 2016, at 12:33 AM, Charles Srstka wrote:

>> On May 5, 2016, at 9:39 PM, Richard Charles  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 5, 2016, at 6:07 PM, Richard Charles  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Can you run this application?
>>> 
>>> “OpenGL Extensions Viewer"
>>> 
>>> http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/
>>> 
>>> I could never get an app that uses OpenGL to work with a virtual machine.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 5, 2016, at 8:16 PM, Charles Srstka  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Seems to run all right in VMWare Fusion on my machine.
>> 
>> 
>> Amazing.
>> 
>> Click the “Tests” tab and click the “Test” button in the lower left corner.
>> 
>> Does it work?
>> 
>> --Richard Charles
> 
> I got an image of a rotating cube.
> 
> Charles
> 
> 
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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Charles Srstka]

> On May 6, 2016, at 11:19 AM, Richard Charles  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On May 5, 2016, at 10:33 PM, Charles Srstka  wrote:
>> 
>>> On May 5, 2016, at 9:39 PM, Richard Charles  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 On May 5, 2016, at 6:07 PM, Richard Charles  wrote:
 
 Can you run this application?
 
 “OpenGL Extensions Viewer"
 
 http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/
 
 I could never get an app that uses OpenGL to work with a virtual machine.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On May 5, 2016, at 8:16 PM, Charles Srstka  
 wrote:
 
 Seems to run all right in VMWare Fusion on my machine.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Amazing.
>>> 
>>> Click the “Tests” tab and click the “Test” button in the lower left corner.
>>> 
>>> Does it work?
>>> 
>>> --Richard Charles
>> 
>> I got an image of a rotating cube.
>> 
>> Charles
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> According to VMware Fusion 8 Documentation a Mac OS X Virtual Machine does 
> not support 3D Accelerated graphics.
> 
> http://pubs.vmware.com/fusion-8/index.jsp#com.vmware.fusion.using.doc/GUID-474FC78E-4E77-42B7-A1C6-12C2F378C5B9.html
> 
> I just called VMware technical support and they confirmed that the product 
> does not support support 3D Accelerated graphics with a Mac virtual machine.
> 
> So what is happening? Perhaps you are seeing the Apple OpenGL Software 
> Renderer being utilized by the OpenGL Extensions Viewer application. You can 
> set this with a pull down at the top of the window.
> 
> I am currently developing a Mac application that uses OpenGL but I could 
> never get it to work with Parallels. I was never able to get the application 
> to fall back to using the Apple Software Renderer when OpenGL hardware was 
> not present. Perhaps I was not doing something correctly.

It does appear to be using the software renderer. However, the cube does 
display and do its rotating thing.

Charles


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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Sandor Szatmari]

I can't say that this is complete or there won't be any gotchas for specific 
use cases, but here's what I can think of.

1. Preserving access in the App Store
If you don't "Purchase" the OS installer before the next release  you 
won't be able to download a new copy in the future.
So...
Whenever a new OS is released I "Purchase" the installer, download it, 
and archive it.
After it finishes downloading, the installer launches, quit the 
installer and copy the app to a safe permanent storage location.
Delete the installer application from /Applications
This process should make sure you have a local cache of installers and 
download access to the installer in the future through the App Store.
2. Creating Installers
In general, I just install on an external USB hard drive.  I use 16 GB 
USB sticks.
Here are some instructions
Lion and Mountain Lion

http://www.macworld.com/article/1167857/software-system/how-to-make-a-bootable-mountain-lion-install-drive.html
Mavericks and Beyond
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201372
Once I create an installer USB stick I keep it around, for the cost and 
headache its just easier.
3. Installing operating systems (Old and New)
Occasionally Apple introduces new hardware that does not support older 
OS's.
Occasionally Apple introduces new Software that does not support older 
hardware.
So, to be thorough, you need to maintain an awareness of what your 
hardware supports, and don't ditch your older machines so easily.
Virtual machines are a good work around if you don't have actual 
hardware that supports the OS you want to install on.  But there may be 
limitations.
4. Virtual Machines
Ever since Apple allowed virtualization Parallels and VMWare are great
Its nice to be able to take a snapshot and mess around break stuff and 
then rollback and test some more.
If you do a lot of work in virtual machines vagrant 
(https://www.vagrantup.com) is a pretty cool.  It facilitates rapid setup and 
switching between VMs.  It works with virtualbox and VMWare, not sure about 
Parallels.
There may be some limitations for specific development needs as some 
have pointed out, hardware acceleration support.  The only thing we trust at 
work is tests verified on actual hardware.


Sandor

> On May 4, 2016, at 08:29, Alex Zavatone  wrote:
> 
> Considering that we all will need to perform this joyous process when we 
> least expect it and have the least time to do it. Would it be possible to 
> bulletpoint the process to serve as a reference?
> 
> One thing I have noticed with some of the more recent versions of OS X (10.9 
> I think) is that once upgraded, HFS will no longer recognize volumes from 
> previous incarnations of the Mac OS.
> 
> This caused great panic on my end since it was unexpected, but it is 
> important to note if you are trying to install a prior OS to a volume where 
> the format or partition or whatever is not recognized by the HFS version of 
> the OS you are trying to install.
> 
> Just a nice detail.
> 
> To mitigate this pain, I keep several VMWare Fusion VMs around at 40 GB a 
> piece and when a new OS comes out, I duplicate the latest one, upgrade it, 
> install Xcode on it and move forward.
> 
> This way, I can always spoil up an older OS with a working version of Xcode 
> on it if needed.
> 
> Keeping these on a cheap and large HD and moving the one needed to an SSD is 
> a cost efficient manner of keeping working older OSes with functional Xcode 
> installs around if needed.
> 
> Hope this helps anyone who might have to go through Graham's lovely ordeal.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alex Zavatone
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On May 4, 2016, at 7:41 AM, Sandor Szatmari  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Glad you got it to work.  I have seen the installer 'could not be verified' 
>> before.  The only time I saw that was after using command line copy (cp) to 
>> copy the installer app.  But except for that one experience, using 
>> createmediainstaller has worked well.  I also copy the installer to 
>> someplace outside /Applications like Phil (sqwarqDev) suggested before 
>> letting it run.  Basically the installer app that I archive is a pristine, 
>> never been run, download.  And then I make USB sticks directly off of those 
>> archived apps.
>> 
>> Sandor
>> 
>>> On May 4, 2016, at 01:33, Graham Cox  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 On 3 May 2016, at 8:28 PM, Graham Cox  wrote:
 
 So probably a redownload isn’t going to help, but I’m doing it anyway.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Success! Finally.
>>> 
>>> I created a new bootable installer using createinstallmedia and a fresh 
>>> Mavericks download. I did the Pacific Daylight Time change just in case 
>>> (though it sounds like voodoo, I’m prepared 

Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Richard Charles]

> On May 5, 2016, at 10:33 PM, Charles Srstka  wrote:
> 
>> On May 5, 2016, at 9:39 PM, Richard Charles  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 5, 2016, at 6:07 PM, Richard Charles  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Can you run this application?
>>> 
>>> “OpenGL Extensions Viewer"
>>> 
>>> http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/
>>> 
>>> I could never get an app that uses OpenGL to work with a virtual machine.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 5, 2016, at 8:16 PM, Charles Srstka  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Seems to run all right in VMWare Fusion on my machine.
>> 
>> 
>> Amazing.
>> 
>> Click the “Tests” tab and click the “Test” button in the lower left corner.
>> 
>> Does it work?
>> 
>> --Richard Charles
> 
> I got an image of a rotating cube.
> 
> Charles

Interesting.

According to VMware Fusion 8 Documentation a Mac OS X Virtual Machine does not 
support 3D Accelerated graphics.

http://pubs.vmware.com/fusion-8/index.jsp#com.vmware.fusion.using.doc/GUID-474FC78E-4E77-42B7-A1C6-12C2F378C5B9.html

I just called VMware technical support and they confirmed that the product does 
not support support 3D Accelerated graphics with a Mac virtual machine.

So what is happening? Perhaps you are seeing the Apple OpenGL Software Renderer 
being utilized by the OpenGL Extensions Viewer application. You can set this 
with a pull down at the top of the window.

I am currently developing a Mac application that uses OpenGL but I could never 
get it to work with Parallels. I was never able to get the application to fall 
back to using the Apple Software Renderer when OpenGL hardware was not present. 
Perhaps I was not doing something correctly.

--Richard Charles


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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Charles Srstka]

> On May 5, 2016, at 9:39 PM, Richard Charles  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On May 5, 2016, at 6:07 PM, Richard Charles  wrote:
>> 
>> Can you run this application?
>> 
>> “OpenGL Extensions Viewer"
>> 
>> http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/
>> 
>> I could never get an app that uses OpenGL to work with a virtual machine.
> 
> 
> 
>> On May 5, 2016, at 8:16 PM, Charles Srstka  wrote:
>> 
>> Seems to run all right in VMWare Fusion on my machine.
> 
> 
> Amazing.
> 
> Click the “Tests” tab and click the “Test” button in the lower left corner.
> 
> Does it work?
> 
> --Richard Charles

I got an image of a rotating cube.

Charles


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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Richard Charles]

> On May 5, 2016, at 6:07 PM, Richard Charles  wrote:
> 
> Can you run this application?
> 
> “OpenGL Extensions Viewer"
> 
> http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/
> 
> I could never get an app that uses OpenGL to work with a virtual machine.



> On May 5, 2016, at 8:16 PM, Charles Srstka  wrote:
> 
> Seems to run all right in VMWare Fusion on my machine.


Amazing.

Click the “Tests” tab and click the “Test” button in the lower left corner.

Does it work?

--Richard Charles


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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Charles Srstka]

> On May 5, 2016, at 7:07 PM, Richard Charles  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On May 5, 2016, at 3:15 PM, Alex Zavatone  wrote:
>> 
>> Using VMWare Fusion 5.0.5, I've got Mac OS X 10.8.5, 10.9.x and Windows 7 
>> running in VMs without an issue.
> 
> Can you run this application?
> 
> “OpenGL Extensions Viewer"
> 
> http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/
> 
> I could never get an app that uses OpenGL to work with a virtual machine.
> 
> --Richard Charles

Seems to run all right on my machine.

Charles


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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Richard Charles]

> On May 5, 2016, at 3:15 PM, Alex Zavatone  wrote:
> 
> Using VMWare Fusion 5.0.5, I've got Mac OS X 10.8.5, 10.9.x and Windows 7 
> running in VMs without an issue.

Can you run this application?

“OpenGL Extensions Viewer"

http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/

I could never get an app that uses OpenGL to work with a virtual machine.

--Richard Charles


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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Alex Zavatone]

On May 5, 2016, at 4:22 PM, Richard Charles wrote:

> 
>> On May 3, 2016, at 6:13 PM, Quincey Morris 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> In the end, I gave up on this and went to virtualization instead. VMWare was 
>> what I chose, and it worked great, although it was a bit slow. I also 
>> thought there was a way to run virtualization in OS X Server somehow, but I 
>> couldn’t find any documentation to support that idea. So, VMWare or 
>> Parallels.
> 
> Just a note. Parallels does not support 2D or 3D acceleration in Mac OS guest 
> operating systems (installed inside the virtual machine).
> 
> http://kb.parallels.com/en/113309
> 
> This completely ruined my plans for using virtual machines for development 
> testing. So I have an older Mac Pro with multiple disks, partitions, 
> installers, and OS versions.
> 
> --Richard Charles

FYI, I have a 2011 MBP 17" quad core 2.3 MHz i7 with 16 GB of RAM, and glorious 
10.6.8 on an SSD + a 1 TB HD.  Using VMWare Fusion 5.0.5, I've got Mac OS X 
10.8.5, 10.9.x and Windows 7 running in VMs without an issue.  

It's actually really really fast and faster in many things than my 2015 Retina 
MBP 15" quad core 2.2 MHz i7 with 16 GB of 1600MHz RAM and a 240 GB Apple SSD.  

Builds are certainly faster on the modern Mac though, FWIW. 

I'll try putting these on other media when I get home and make sure that I also 
have 10.10 and 10.11 configured in VMs just to see if this works from my target 
Mac OS to at least give us a data point to see which OSes we can run in 
virtualization.



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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Richard Charles]

> On May 3, 2016, at 6:13 PM, Quincey Morris 
>  wrote:
> 
> In the end, I gave up on this and went to virtualization instead. VMWare was 
> what I chose, and it worked great, although it was a bit slow. I also thought 
> there was a way to run virtualization in OS X Server somehow, but I couldn’t 
> find any documentation to support that idea. So, VMWare or Parallels.

Just a note. Parallels does not support 2D or 3D acceleration in Mac OS guest 
operating systems (installed inside the virtual machine).

http://kb.parallels.com/en/113309

This completely ruined my plans for using virtual machines for development 
testing. So I have an older Mac Pro with multiple disks, partitions, 
installers, and OS versions.

--Richard Charles


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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Quincey Morris]

(A postscript to this thread. I wasn’t sure which of the original posts to 
frame this as a reply to, so I decided to pick on Kyle.)

On May 3, 2016, at 17:17 , Kyle Sluder  wrote:
> 
> Virtualization of recent versions of OS X is permitted on Apple-branded
> hardware. That’s probably your best bet.

So, yesterday I had reason to want to run 10.10.5 to investigate a problem. No 
worries, I thought, I have VMWare Fusion for virtualization, and the MAS app is 
graciously showing me an available download for the 10.10 installer.

Now, I was forced to replace my Mac a couple of weeks ago because my 2011-era 
Mac finally died. Of course, my new Mac can’t run 10.10 because it (the Mac) is 
too new. No worries … Fusion … virtualization … available download.

The alert when I clicked the download button read as follows:

> "We could not complete your purchase.”
> 
> "This version of OS X 10.10 cannot be installed on this computer.”

And not downloaded either, apparently.

So I propose rewording Kyle’s post something like this:

> Virtualization of recent versions of OS X is permitted on recent Apple-branded
> hardware. *But we won’t let you.*


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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Alex Zavatone]

Considering that we all will need to perform this joyous process when we least 
expect it and have the least time to do it. Would it be possible to bulletpoint 
the process to serve as a reference?

One thing I have noticed with some of the more recent versions of OS X (10.9 I 
think) is that once upgraded, HFS will no longer recognize volumes from 
previous incarnations of the Mac OS.

This caused great panic on my end since it was unexpected, but it is important 
to note if you are trying to install a prior OS to a volume where the format or 
partition or whatever is not recognized by the HFS version of the OS you are 
trying to install.

Just a nice detail.

To mitigate this pain, I keep several VMWare Fusion VMs around at 40 GB a piece 
and when a new OS comes out, I duplicate the latest one, upgrade it, install 
Xcode on it and move forward.

This way, I can always spoil up an older OS with a working version of Xcode on 
it if needed.

Keeping these on a cheap and large HD and moving the one needed to an SSD is a 
cost efficient manner of keeping working older OSes with functional Xcode 
installs around if needed.

Hope this helps anyone who might have to go through Graham's lovely ordeal.

Cheers,

Alex Zavatone

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 4, 2016, at 7:41 AM, Sandor Szatmari  
> wrote:
> 
> Glad you got it to work.  I have seen the installer 'could not be verified' 
> before.  The only time I saw that was after using command line copy (cp) to 
> copy the installer app.  But except for that one experience, using 
> createmediainstaller has worked well.  I also copy the installer to someplace 
> outside /Applications like Phil (sqwarqDev) suggested before letting it run.  
> Basically the installer app that I archive is a pristine, never been run, 
> download.  And then I make USB sticks directly off of those archived apps.
> 
> Sandor
> 
>> On May 4, 2016, at 01:33, Graham Cox  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On 3 May 2016, at 8:28 PM, Graham Cox  wrote:
>>> 
>>> So probably a redownload isn’t going to help, but I’m doing it anyway.
>> 
>> 
>> Success! Finally.
>> 
>> I created a new bootable installer using createinstallmedia and a fresh 
>> Mavericks download. I did the Pacific Daylight Time change just in case 
>> (though it sounds like voodoo, I’m prepared to believe anything at this 
>> point…)
>> 
>> I was able to install from that disk without further problems and now have a 
>> working Mavericks OS.
>> 
>> What didn’t work was trying to use the InstallESD.dmg directly. Creating a 
>> copy of it using DU/Restore worked, but it only created a pure copy of the 
>> disk image. That image was not bootable, and I was unable to make it so 
>> using createinstallmedia nor the Ars instructions (which apply to earlier 
>> versions of the OS anyway). It looks like the InstallESD approach is defunct 
>> from 10.9, though there may be something I’m missing.
>> 
>> Thanks to everyone for their help.
>> 
>> It certainly shows that upgrading as new versions of the OS are released 
>> should not be done without a great deal of thought. Leson learned.
>> 
>> —Graham
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Sandor Szatmari]

Glad you got it to work.  I have seen the installer 'could not be verified' 
before.  The only time I saw that was after using command line copy (cp) to 
copy the installer app.  But except for that one experience, using 
createmediainstaller has worked well.  I also copy the installer to someplace 
outside /Applications like Phil (sqwarqDev) suggested before letting it run.  
Basically the installer app that I archive is a pristine, never been run, 
download.  And then I make USB sticks directly off of those archived apps.

Sandor

> On May 4, 2016, at 01:33, Graham Cox  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 3 May 2016, at 8:28 PM, Graham Cox  wrote:
>> 
>> So probably a redownload isn’t going to help, but I’m doing it anyway.
> 
> 
> Success! Finally.
> 
> I created a new bootable installer using createinstallmedia and a fresh 
> Mavericks download. I did the Pacific Daylight Time change just in case 
> (though it sounds like voodoo, I’m prepared to believe anything at this 
> point…)
> 
> I was able to install from that disk without further problems and now have a 
> working Mavericks OS.
> 
> What didn’t work was trying to use the InstallESD.dmg directly. Creating a 
> copy of it using DU/Restore worked, but it only created a pure copy of the 
> disk image. That image was not bootable, and I was unable to make it so using 
> createinstallmedia nor the Ars instructions (which apply to earlier versions 
> of the OS anyway). It looks like the InstallESD approach is defunct from 
> 10.9, though there may be something I’m missing.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for their help.
> 
> It certainly shows that upgrading as new versions of the OS are released 
> should not be done without a great deal of thought. Leson learned.
> 
> —Graham
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Mark Allan]

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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Graham Cox]

> On 3 May 2016, at 8:28 PM, Graham Cox  wrote:
> 
> So probably a redownload isn’t going to help, but I’m doing it anyway.


Success! Finally.

I created a new bootable installer using createinstallmedia and a fresh 
Mavericks download. I did the Pacific Daylight Time change just in case (though 
it sounds like voodoo, I’m prepared to believe anything at this point…)

I was able to install from that disk without further problems and now have a 
working Mavericks OS.

What didn’t work was trying to use the InstallESD.dmg directly. Creating a copy 
of it using DU/Restore worked, but it only created a pure copy of the disk 
image. That image was not bootable, and I was unable to make it so using 
createinstallmedia nor the Ars instructions (which apply to earlier versions of 
the OS anyway). It looks like the InstallESD approach is defunct from 10.9, 
though there may be something I’m missing.

Thanks to everyone for their help.

It certainly shows that upgrading as new versions of the OS are released should 
not be done without a great deal of thought. Leson learned.

—Graham



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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Charles Srstka]

> On May 3, 2016, at 10:55 PM, sqwarqDev  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 4 May 2016, at 10:48, Charles Srstka  wrote:
>> 
>> In the earlier downloadable OS X installers, the InstallESD was bootable; in 
>> the current ones it’s not. I don’t remember when that changed,
> 
> 10.7 I believe.

It was definitely bootable in 10.7, because that was the first version that was 
downloadable. It changed to be non-bootable sometime later, although I don’t 
remember which release that occurred in.

>> Aha, ArsTechnica to the rescue. 
> 
> 
> Also, don’t quote me on it, but I believe that Diskmaker app mentioned in the 
> Ars article is still around and still works on 10.11 (I recall a colleague 
> mentioning recently that they used it).

You don’t need third-party apps. The binary inside the install app’s bundle 
does a perfectly good job of creating a bootable disk and/or image.

Charles


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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[sqwarqDev]

> On 4 May 2016, at 10:48, Charles Srstka  wrote:
> 
> In the earlier downloadable OS X installers, the InstallESD was bootable; in 
> the current ones it’s not. I don’t remember when that changed,

10.7 I believe.

> Aha, ArsTechnica to the rescue. 


Also, don’t quote me on it, but I believe that Diskmaker app mentioned in the 
Ars article is still around and still works on 10.11 (I recall a colleague 
mentioning recently that they used it).


Best


Phil


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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[sqwarqDev]

Aha, ArsTechnica to the rescue. 

Here’s the full skinny on how it’s done:

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/07/how-to-create-a-bootable-backup-mountain-lion-install-disk/


Best


Phil


> On 4 May 2016, at 10:38, sqwarqDev  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 4 May 2016, at 10:34, sqwarqDev  wrote:
>> 
>> I don’t know exactly what that does or if its the same function
> 
> From the new DU’s help, step 1 refers to the destination, step 2 the 
> InstallESD:
> 
> Select the volume in the sidebar you want to restore, then select Edit > 
> Restore.
> 
> This is the volume that is erased and becomes the exact copy.
> 
> Click the Restore pop-up menu, then choose the volume you want to copy.
> 
> Click Restore, then click Done.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Charles Srstka]

> On May 3, 2016, at 10:28 PM, Graham Cox  wrote:
> 
>> On 4 May 2016, at 12:52 PM, sqwarqDev > > wrote:
>> 
>> Yeah, I’ve been through this. I now have disks with every OS from 10.6 
>> through to 10.11 and a couple of old MBPs to run them on. Treat them like 
>> gold dust. You may well hit that “could not be verified” message again - I 
>> know I did, with every single install.
>> 
>> Eventually, I chanced upon the idea that the checksum was out because of a 
>> time difference. I don’t know if that was true or if it even makes sense as 
>> a theory, but after temporarily changing my timezone to Cupertino time I was 
>> able to get past the roadblock and install.
>> 
> 
> 
> So probably a redownload isn’t going to help, but I’m doing it anyway.
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the tips folks, not there yet but things are moving.
> 
> A couple of questions:
> 
> Going for VMWare, does Fusion do the job, or do I need Fusion Pro?

Fusion has everything you need for this, no need for Pro.

> Within the installer app, there is an embedded .dmg called InstallESD. This 
> seems to be the bulk of the installer. I take it that’s the *REAL* install 
> image. Can I install directly from that, and if so, how?

In the earlier downloadable OS X installers, the InstallESD was bootable; in 
the current ones it’s not. I don’t remember when that changed, so the Mavs one 
may or may not be bootable. However, on the versions that aren’t, there’s a 
“createinstallmedia” command-line tool buried inside the bundle that will make 
a bootable image for you.

Charles

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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Quincey Morris]

On May 3, 2016, at 20:28 , Graham Cox  wrote:
> 
> Going for VMWare, does Fusion do the job, or do I need Fusion Pro?

Just Fusion. “Pro” has enterprise features you don’t need, unless you’re 
running a coding slave farm up there in the tropics.

> Within the installer app, there is an embedded .dmg called InstallESD. This 
> seems to be the bulk of the installer. I take it that’s the *REAL* install 
> image. Can I install directly from that, and if so, how?

That’s part of what I tried to say before. IIRC, you can mount this, which’ll 
get your hopes up, but you can’t run the installer app that’s in it.

However, if you’re going to use Fusion, again IIRC, you’ll need the store 
installer app on your disc to point it to.

But I won’t swear my memory is correct on these points.

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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[sqwarqDev]

> On 4 May 2016, at 10:34, sqwarqDev  wrote:
> 
> I don’t know exactly what that does or if its the same function

From the new DU’s help, step 1 refers to the destination, step 2 the InstallESD:

Select the volume in the sidebar you want to restore, then select Edit > 
Restore.

This is the volume that is erased and becomes the exact copy.

Click the Restore pop-up menu, then choose the volume you want to copy.

Click Restore, then click Done.



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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[sqwarqDev]

> On 4 May 2016, at 10:28, Graham Cox  wrote:
> 
> This seems to be the bulk of the installer. I take it that’s the *REAL* 
> install image. Can I install directly from that, and if so, how?


Yes you can. The old way was mount the InstallESD image in the Finder and then 
use Disk Utility’s ‘Restore’ tab. The new DU doesn’t have that, but in the 
Images menu there is a ‘Scan Image for Restore…’ option. I don’t know exactly 
what that does or if its the same function; I guess you’ll be putting on your 
pioneering boots here!






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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Graham Cox]

> On 4 May 2016, at 12:52 PM, sqwarqDev  wrote:
> 
> Yeah, I’ve been through this. I now have disks with every OS from 10.6 
> through to 10.11 and a couple of old MBPs to run them on. Treat them like 
> gold dust. You may well hit that “could not be verified” message again - I 
> know I did, with every single install.
> 
> Eventually, I chanced upon the idea that the checksum was out because of a 
> time difference. I don’t know if that was true or if it even makes sense as a 
> theory, but after temporarily changing my timezone to Cupertino time I was 
> able to get past the roadblock and install.
> 


So probably a redownload isn’t going to help, but I’m doing it anyway.


Thanks for all the tips folks, not there yet but things are moving.

A couple of questions:

Going for VMWare, does Fusion do the job, or do I need Fusion Pro?

Within the installer app, there is an embedded .dmg called InstallESD. This 
seems to be the bulk of the installer. I take it that’s the *REAL* install 
image. Can I install directly from that, and if so, how?


—Graham



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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[sqwarqDev]

> On 4 May 2016, at 10:08, Carl Hoefs  wrote:
> 
> I don't know why, but you'll find that none of your previously purchased 
> items will be grayed out there.

What’s installed isn’t a historical record attached to your account. As 
indicated in my earlier post, it’s actually a live search of the current and 
any connected disks (probably using locate given its speed, but in any case…). 
That’s why you get a short delay when you hit the ‘Purchased’ tab.


Best


Phil


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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Carl Hoefs]

> On May 3, 2016, at 7:18 PM, Graham Cox  wrote:
> 
> I went to the app store (arrgh!!) to redownload the full installer image (why 
> oh why is this not available as a developer download from apple dev? Using 
> the app store is an abysmal non-choice to force on developers). I could not 
> download 10.9 as the button was greyed out with “downloaded” on it.

Go to a different machine, launch AppStore, and select the Purchased tab. I 
don't know why, but you'll find that none of your previously purchased items 
will be grayed out there. This is how I re-download already downloaded items.
-Carl


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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Phil Stokes]

> On 4 May 2016, at 09:18, Graham Cox  wrote:
> 
> I could not download 10.9 as the button was greyed out with “downloaded” on 
> it.


Yeah, about that. 

Whenever you download from the App Store, save a copy of the installer BEFORE 
you run it. 

Copy it off onto some removable media device. If you ever want to re-download 
the same installer, make sure that removable device is disconnected. App Store 
searches for the installer (starting in /Applications but going through every 
mounted device) to see if the installer is already present. If it is, you get 
the greyed-out button.


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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[sqwarqDev]

> On 4 May 2016, at 09:18, Graham Cox  wrote:
> 
> I could not download 10.9 as the button was greyed out with “downloaded” on 
> it.

Yeah, about that. 

Whenever you download from the App Store, save a copy of the installer BEFORE 
you run it. 

Copy it off onto some removable media device. If you ever want to re-download 
the same installer, make sure that removable device is disconnected. App Store 
searches for the installer (starting in /Applications but going through every 
mounted device) to see if the installer is already present. If it is, you get 
the greyed-out button.


Best


Phil
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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[sqwarqDev]

> On 4 May 2016, at 09:18, Graham Cox  wrote:
> 
> but at that point it gave an error that the installer could not be verified 
> and ‘may’ be corrupt.

Yeah, I’ve been through this. I now have disks with every OS from 10.6 through 
to 10.11 and a couple of old MBPs to run them on. Treat them like gold dust. 
You may well hit that “could not be verified” message again - I know I did, 
with every single install.

Eventually, I chanced upon the idea that the checksum was out because of a time 
difference. I don’t know if that was true or if it even makes sense as a 
theory, but after temporarily changing my timezone to Cupertino time I was able 
to get past the roadblock and install.


Best


Phil

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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Graham Cox]

> On 4 May 2016, at 10:31 AM, Graham Cox  wrote:
> 
>> Downgrading the OS (even on a second partition) isn’t actually that
>> simple of a request. If your computer was released after OS X Mavericks,
>> it definitely cannot support running OS X Mavericks.
> 
> In this case it’s a MId-2010 iMac, should be OK...
> 
>> It’s also possible
>> that a firmware fix or disk format change may have shipped in a newer
>> OS, and older OSes are not qualified against that configuration.
> 
> …subject to that of course.
> 



Some progress, more roadblocks…

I was able to create a bootable installer using the createmediainstaller 
command line.

I was able to see this disk when I rebooted with the option key down, and it 
booted into that disk.

I was initially able to run the installer and choose a target disk, but at that 
point it gave an error that the installer could not be verified and ‘may’ be 
corrupt.

I went to the app store (arrgh!!) to redownload the full installer image (why 
oh why is this not available as a developer download from apple dev? Using the 
app store is an abysmal non-choice to force on developers). I could not 
download 10.9 as the button was greyed out with “downloaded” on it.

So now I’m attempting to download 10.8 and see whether I can upgrade to 10.9 
from there.

If Apple had anything other than contempt for their developers they’d surely 
make this process easier. I can understand why they might not want to make it 
easy for a typical user to downgrade (though why not, actually?), but a 
developer has a legitimate reason to set up an older OS for testing. If Xcode 
had some sort of reliable mechanism for detecting problems when targeting an 
older OS that would not matter so much, but it doesn’t - so many uses of API 
that target later than the minimum build OS go unwarned that there’s no 
substitute for running on those older versions to find the bugs. And usage 
statistics show that users are still running 10.8 and 10.9 in significant 
percentages.

Does anyone have a reliable source for a 10.9 full install download that 
doesn’t involve the app store? At this point I’ll try anything, including a 
Pirate Bay torrent if need be. Apple, shame on you for forcing this situation, 
it’s absoutely pathetic.

—Graham



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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Alex Zavatone]

That should work. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 3, 2016, at 8:31 PM, Graham Cox  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 4 May 2016, at 10:17 AM, Kyle Sluder  wrote:
>> 
>> Downgrading the OS (even on a second partition) isn’t actually that
>> simple of a request. If your computer was released after OS X Mavericks,
>> it definitely cannot support running OS X Mavericks.
> 
> In this case it’s a MId-2010 iMac, should be OK...
> 
>> It’s also possible
>> that a firmware fix or disk format change may have shipped in a newer
>> OS, and older OSes are not qualified against that configuration.
> 
> …subject to that of course.
> 
> 
>> Virtualization of recent versions of OS X is permitted on Apple-branded
>> hardware. That’s probably your best bet.
> 
> 
> I’m looking into that; it’s a continuining problem, be nice to solve it 
> professionally. VMWare Fusion right?
> 
> 
>> On 4 May 2016, at 10:15 AM, Sandor Szatmari  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Can you make a bootable USB drive and install from there?
>> 
>> https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201372
> 
> 
> Also looking into that, thanks!
> 
> —Graham
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Alex Zavatone]

Along those lines, is it at all possible to disable the damn memory compression?

Ever since memory compression has been enabled on the OS level, my older 
machines that I have had to upgrade have horrible performance, even with 16 GB 
of RAM.  

This memory compression is simply EVIL on machines with RAM that’s 1067 MHz or 
less.


The older Macs that I can keep on 10.6.7, well, it’s REALLY NICE, but I can’t 
do daily work on those.



On May 3, 2016, at 8:17 PM, Kyle Sluder  wrote:

> On Tue, May 3, 2016, at 06:28 PM, Graham Cox wrote:
>> My main dev machine runs the latest OS - 10.11.4
>> 
>> I need to install a 10.9 image on a disk partition for development
>> testing.
>> 
>> How?
>> 
>> Apple’s dev site is getting worse all the time - wasting its time selling
>> you something you already have - OS X - but hiding away basic resources,
>> like an OS 9 installer that I can download. I’ve just spent 20 minutes
>> fruitlessly searching the dev site. It’s utterly baffling, taking you
>> round and round in circles.
>> 
>> How can I do this? Surely it’s actually possible, somehow?
>> 
>> Note that I do have an old Mavericks Installer, but it refuses to run on
>> 10.11, saying that the app is too old ro run on this version of the OS. I
>> also have not been able to set the partition I intend to use (that
>> contains the installer) as a startup disk. I seem to recall that there
>> was a thread about this not long ago, I even seem to remember pitching in
>> something, but now I come to need it myself, I can’t get it to work.
> 
> Downgrading the OS (even on a second partition) isn’t actually that
> simple of a request. If your computer was released after OS X Mavericks,
> it definitely cannot support running OS X Mavericks. It’s also possible
> that a firmware fix or disk format change may have shipped in a newer
> OS, and older OSes are not qualified against that configuration.
> 
> Virtualization of recent versions of OS X is permitted on Apple-branded
> hardware. That’s probably your best bet.
> 
> --Kyle
> 
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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Quincey Morris]

On May 3, 2016, at 17:21 , Alex Zavatone  wrote:
> 
> Whaat?  Any OS installers at all?
> 
> What types of errors does it throw?

IIRC, however you get the older installer, you still have to run it as an app 
under the current OS, and it just says the installer is too old to run as an 
application. If you try via reboot with the Option key held down, you get into 
recovery mode, but I don’t think I had any success in proceeding with either 
download or installation of an older OS.

There may well be a way of going backwards from 10.11, but I also got 
frustrated and gave up before I found it.

If you plan(ned) ahead, the best solution is(would have been) to keeping 
working bootable external disks for each OS version. I didn’t.

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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Graham Cox]

> On 4 May 2016, at 10:17 AM, Kyle Sluder  wrote:
> 
> Downgrading the OS (even on a second partition) isn’t actually that
> simple of a request. If your computer was released after OS X Mavericks,
> it definitely cannot support running OS X Mavericks.

In this case it’s a MId-2010 iMac, should be OK...

> It’s also possible
> that a firmware fix or disk format change may have shipped in a newer
> OS, and older OSes are not qualified against that configuration.

…subject to that of course.


> Virtualization of recent versions of OS X is permitted on Apple-branded
> hardware. That’s probably your best bet.


I’m looking into that; it’s a continuining problem, be nice to solve it 
professionally. VMWare Fusion right?


> On 4 May 2016, at 10:15 AM, Sandor Szatmari  
> wrote:
> 
> Can you make a bootable USB drive and install from there?
> 
> https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201372


Also looking into that, thanks!

—Graham



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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Alex Zavatone]

On May 3, 2016, at 8:13 PM, Quincey Morris 
 wrote:

> On May 3, 2016, at 16:28 , Graham Cox  wrote:
>> 
>> I need to install a 10.9 image on a disk partition for development testing.
>> 
>> How?
> 
> I did start a thread about this, which might be the one you are remembering.
> 
> You’re fighting a number of road blocks. The important one is that a Mac 
> cannot run a version of OS X that’s older than the one it originally arrived 
> with. (That is, older versions may not have the drivers and other 
> hardware-dependent software needed to operate a newer Mac correctly.)
> 
> Secondarily, it does seem that the current (10.11) OS won’t run older 
> installers under any circumstances.

Whaat?  Any OS installers at all?

What types of errors does it throw?



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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Kyle Sluder]

On Tue, May 3, 2016, at 06:28 PM, Graham Cox wrote:
> My main dev machine runs the latest OS - 10.11.4
> 
> I need to install a 10.9 image on a disk partition for development
> testing.
> 
> How?
> 
> Apple’s dev site is getting worse all the time - wasting its time selling
> you something you already have - OS X - but hiding away basic resources,
> like an OS 9 installer that I can download. I’ve just spent 20 minutes
> fruitlessly searching the dev site. It’s utterly baffling, taking you
> round and round in circles.
> 
> How can I do this? Surely it’s actually possible, somehow?
> 
> Note that I do have an old Mavericks Installer, but it refuses to run on
> 10.11, saying that the app is too old ro run on this version of the OS. I
> also have not been able to set the partition I intend to use (that
> contains the installer) as a startup disk. I seem to recall that there
> was a thread about this not long ago, I even seem to remember pitching in
> something, but now I come to need it myself, I can’t get it to work.

Downgrading the OS (even on a second partition) isn’t actually that
simple of a request. If your computer was released after OS X Mavericks,
it definitely cannot support running OS X Mavericks. It’s also possible
that a firmware fix or disk format change may have shipped in a newer
OS, and older OSes are not qualified against that configuration.

Virtualization of recent versions of OS X is permitted on Apple-branded
hardware. That’s probably your best bet.

--Kyle

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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Sandor Szatmari]

Can you make a bootable USB drive and install from there?

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201372

Sandor Szatmari

> On May 3, 2016, at 19:28, Graham Cox  wrote:
> 
> My main dev machine runs the latest OS - 10.11.4
> 
> I need to install a 10.9 image on a disk partition for development testing.
> 
> How?
> 
> Apple’s dev site is getting worse all the time - wasting its time selling you 
> something you already have - OS X - but hiding away basic resources, like an 
> OS 9 installer that I can download. I’ve just spent 20 minutes fruitlessly 
> searching the dev site. It’s utterly baffling, taking you round and round in 
> circles.
> 
> How can I do this? Surely it’s actually possible, somehow?
> 
> Note that I do have an old Mavericks Installer, but it refuses to run on 
> 10.11, saying that the app is too old ro run on this version of the OS. I 
> also have not been able to set the partition I intend to use (that contains 
> the installer) as a startup disk. I seem to recall that there was a thread 
> about this not long ago, I even seem to remember pitching in something, but 
> now I come to need it myself, I can’t get it to work.
> 
> Very frustrating!
> 
> —Graham
> 
> 
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Re: Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Quincey Morris]

On May 3, 2016, at 16:28 , Graham Cox  wrote:
> 
> I need to install a 10.9 image on a disk partition for development testing.
> 
> How?

I did start a thread about this, which might be the one you are remembering.

You’re fighting a number of road blocks. The important one is that a Mac cannot 
run a version of OS X that’s older than the one it originally arrived with. 
(That is, older versions may not have the drivers and other hardware-dependent 
software needed to operate a newer Mac correctly.)

Secondarily, it does seem that the current (10.11) OS won’t run older 
installers under any circumstances. At the time this came up, I had a 2011-era 
iMac, so it should have been able to go back at least a few versions, but it 
wouldn’t. It’s possible that there might be a way of doing it if you reboot to 
the recovery partition, and then somehow force a download of the older OS, but 
I couldn’t find a way to do it.

In the end, I gave up on this and went to virtualization instead. VMWare was 
what I chose, and it worked great, although it was a bit slow. I also thought 
there was a way to run virtualization in OS X Server somehow, but I couldn’t 
find any documentation to support that idea. So, VMWare or Parallels.

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Very basic need, very difficult to achieve.

[Graham Cox]

My main dev machine runs the latest OS - 10.11.4

I need to install a 10.9 image on a disk partition for development testing.

How?

Apple’s dev site is getting worse all the time - wasting its time selling you 
something you already have - OS X - but hiding away basic resources, like an OS 
9 installer that I can download. I’ve just spent 20 minutes fruitlessly 
searching the dev site. It’s utterly baffling, taking you round and round in 
circles.

How can I do this? Surely it’s actually possible, somehow?

Note that I do have an old Mavericks Installer, but it refuses to run on 10.11, 
saying that the app is too old ro run on this version of the OS. I also have 
not been able to set the partition I intend to use (that contains the 
installer) as a startup disk. I seem to recall that there was a thread about 
this not long ago, I even seem to remember pitching in something, but now I 
come to need it myself, I can’t get it to work.

Very frustrating!

—Graham

 
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