Re: newbies documentation - requirements?

[e nio]

  Hi Bertrand,
 Is it possible for you to correct the tutorial you have
authored at www.cocooncenter.de and perhaps moved it over to
Wiki as one of the beginners tutorial?  The correction is to
change matcher from WildcardURIMatcherFactory to
WildcardURIMatcher, perhaps it has the Factory name in the class
on the older version but newer builts can't find this. Also it
seems the newer built does not have mount dir below cocoon (not
on 2.1-dev) anymore so that may need to be modified too.  I was
going to copy and paste or put a link in the Wiki, but I decided
to ask you first. Thanks.

enio
--- Bertrand Delacretaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Steven Noels wrote:
> 
> > Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>  >. . .
> >> 3) MUST clearly identify these docs as being "for
> beginners" and 
> >> "reviewed by an editor of the Cocoon team" to prevent
> beginners from 
> >> getting lost in obsolete/unreliable docs
> > 
> > 
> > That might warrant a different Wiki instance for these docs
> since this 
> > breaks the fundamental 'uncategorization-ness' of Wikis...
> or we would 
> > have to hack JSPWiki. A Wiki doesn't know 'sections', or it
> ain't a true 
> > Wiki...
> 
> (TWiki does subfolders by the way, very useful sometimes)
> 
> I was thinking more of something driven by "metadata", maybe
> simply 
> adding some name-value pairs at the end of the wiki text,
> something like:
> 
> TARGET-AUDIENCE: beginners
> REVIEWED-BY: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Tuesday January 28th,
> 2003
> COCOON-RELEASES: 2.0.1, 2.0.4
> 
> Which might be enough by itself by the way, but if this could
> translate 
> to cool-looking icons or different page backgrounds on the
> wiki it would 
> be very nice, and maybe not that hard to hack. JSPWiki
> supports plugins 
> I think, so maybe there is an easy way.
> 
>  >. . .
>  >> 5) MUST allow all wiki docs (these and existing ones) to
> be 
> searchable simultaneously. . .
>  >
>  > If we really want to be sophisticted, someone might build a
> webapp with
>  > Lucene and have that deployed on search.cocoondev.org, fed
> with a
>  > collection of Cocoon-specific URIs
>  >
> 
> Not needed if the beginner's wiki docs are stored on the
> existing wiki - 
> they will be searchable simultaneously.
> 
> 
> -Bertrand
> 
> 
>
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RE: newbies documentation - requirements?

[Robert Koberg]

Hi,

> -Original Message-
> From: Steven Noels [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 5:33 AM

> Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:

> > 3) MUST clearly identify these docs as being "for beginners" and
> > "reviewed by an editor of the Cocoon team" to prevent beginners from
> > getting lost in obsolete/unreliable docs
>
> That might warrant a different Wiki instance for these docs since this
> breaks the fundamental 'uncategorization-ness' of Wikis... or we would
> have to hack JSPWiki. A Wiki doesn't know 'sections', or it ain't a true
> Wiki...

perhaps dreaming, but... :)
How about adding a tab structure/frameset that toggles between Wiki editing of
the page and a metadata view. Using Dublin Core's core elements, it makes it
easy to create a flexible form. The form consist of a toolbar containing a save
button and three dropdowns for the 3 DC categories (Content, Intellectual
Property, Instantiation). The *.dcxml file is used to populate the form if it
exists. If new or adding an element, the user selects from the dropdown and
JavaScript writes a new row containing that metadata item. Save puts it in the
central location.

//cool_block.dcxml

http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#";
xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";>
  http://a.org/cool_block.html";>
Cool Cocoon block Blah
Cocoon.User.Blocks.Cool
This block handles blah blah...
Cocoon
cool_block
Joe Developer
Joe Developer's Company
Jimmy User
Johnny Editor
Open Source
2003-01-22 19:05
text/html
  



  
http://cocoondev.org/dc/{$focus_id}.dcxml"/>
...

All metadata is stored in one location. Pages can live anywhere. Metadata is
transformed into a documentation site 'index' or perhaps it creates a site based
on the dc:Subject. The rdfDescription/@about links/is-fed the described
resource. If someone would like to add documentation they add the metadata to
the central location.

best,
-Rob



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Re: newbies documentation - requirements?

[Steven Noels]

Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:


I was thinking more of something driven by "metadata", maybe simply 
adding some name-value pairs at the end of the wiki text, something like:

TARGET-AUDIENCE: beginners
REVIEWED-BY: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Tuesday January 28th, 2003
COCOON-RELEASES: 2.0.1, 2.0.4

Yep, that is what I was thinking about. Janne (the creator of JSPWiki) 
is quite happy to collaborate, he was even willing to change the license 
when I asked him: Bruno did a try at building a real Cocoon generator 
out of the JSPWiki TranslatorReader, but failed since parsing Wiki text 
is a bit like parsing pre-DTD HTML...: quite difficult to push clean SAX 
events out of fuzzy stuff.

But these issues are there to be fixed, and I'll try to be as supportive 
as time allows!


--
Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org


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Re: newbies documentation - requirements?

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

Steven Noels wrote:


Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:

>. . .

3) MUST clearly identify these docs as being "for beginners" and 
"reviewed by an editor of the Cocoon team" to prevent beginners from 
getting lost in obsolete/unreliable docs


That might warrant a different Wiki instance for these docs since this 
breaks the fundamental 'uncategorization-ness' of Wikis... or we would 
have to hack JSPWiki. A Wiki doesn't know 'sections', or it ain't a true 
Wiki...

(TWiki does subfolders by the way, very useful sometimes)

I was thinking more of something driven by "metadata", maybe simply 
adding some name-value pairs at the end of the wiki text, something like:

TARGET-AUDIENCE: beginners
REVIEWED-BY: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Tuesday January 28th, 2003
COCOON-RELEASES: 2.0.1, 2.0.4

Which might be enough by itself by the way, but if this could translate 
to cool-looking icons or different page backgrounds on the wiki it would 
be very nice, and maybe not that hard to hack. JSPWiki supports plugins 
I think, so maybe there is an easy way.

>. . .
>> 5) MUST allow all wiki docs (these and existing ones) to be 
searchable simultaneously. . .
>
> If we really want to be sophisticted, someone might build a webapp with
> Lucene and have that deployed on search.cocoondev.org, fed with a
> collection of Cocoon-specific URIs
>

Not needed if the beginner's wiki docs are stored on the existing wiki - 
they will be searchable simultaneously.


-Bertrand


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Re: newbies documentation - requirements?

[Steven Noels]

Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:

some short notes:


Cocoon "newbie docs" requirements:

1) GOAL: create a source of reliable information for Cocoon newbies, 
along the lines of "how to setup Cocoon in 15 minutes" and ""HOWTO setup 
your intranet with XML in 1 day"

like that :-)


2) MUST allow users to comment/improve these docs, in "wiki mode" to 
make it as easy as possible

OK


3) MUST clearly identify these docs as being "for beginners" and 
"reviewed by an editor of the Cocoon team" to prevent beginners from 
getting lost in obsolete/unreliable docs

That might warrant a different Wiki instance for these docs since this 
breaks the fundamental 'uncategorization-ness' of Wikis... or we would 
have to hack JSPWiki. A Wiki doesn't know 'sections', or it ain't a true 
Wiki...

4) SHOULD make these docs and their comments searchable, separately from 
the technical and/or unchecked existing docs to prevent beginners from 
being overwhelmed with irrelevant search results.

JSPWiki offers a global search (which is a bit broken in the version 
currently deployed on wiki.cocoondev.org), but I said already that I'll 
try to fix that ASAP. There's another, invisible issue with the Wiki 
which I need to fix, but which doesn't prevent normal operations. It 
only prevents easy upgrades. And nobody like to hack JSPs over here, I 
assume ;-)

5) MUST allow all wiki docs (these and existing ones) to be searchable 
simultaneously, to prevent users from having to search in X different 
places for info.

If we really want to be sophisticted, someone might build a webapp with 
Lucene and have that deployed on search.cocoondev.org, fed with a 
collection of Cocoon-specific URIs

6) SHOULD be integrated with existing Cocoon community tools to avoid 
fragmentation of skills and resources (for me it is actually a MUST ;-)

Given the success of the existing Wiki, I would seriously recommend 
against creating a new one, even if it's for a specific purpose.


--
Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org


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Re: newbies documentation - requirements?

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
>. . .

And one question:

 > 6) SHOULD be integrated with existing Cocoon community tools to avoid
 > fragmentation of skills and resources (for me it is actually a MUST
 > ;-)

I'm just curious: What tools do you mean ? (maybe i should have a look
into the cocoon documentation framework first?)

>. . .

I just meant the existing wiki, mailing lists, CVS and the existing web 
site, the idea being that the community can concentrate on these three 
"tools" and not have a different tool for each goal.

If we agree on these requirements (which seems to be the case), I 
suggest asking Steven for suggestions on how requirements 3) and 4) 
(from 
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-users&m=104366429632390&w=2) 
could be met with the existing Wiki.

I'm copying Steven to make sure he sees this.

-Bertrand


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Re: newbies documentation - requirements?

[SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous]

Hy, Bertrand;

yes, you are right: first determine the requirements, then start
thinking about how to reach them ...
One additional comment to your list:

> 4) SHOULD make these docs and their comments searchable, separately
> from
> the technical and/or unchecked existing docs to prevent beginners from
> being overwhelmed with irrelevant search results.

I would say, this is a MUST (giving one argument against
separate wikis ;-)

And one question:

> 6) SHOULD be integrated with existing Cocoon community tools to avoid
> fragmentation of skills and resources (for me it is actually a MUST
> ;-)

I'm just curious: What tools do you mean ? (maybe i should have a look
into the cocoon documentation framework first?)

regards, hussayn

Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:


Cocoon "newbie docs" requirements:

1) GOAL: create a source of reliable information for Cocoon newbies, 
along the lines of "how to setup Cocoon in 15 minutes" and ""HOWTO setup 
your intranet with XML in 1 day"

2) MUST allow users to comment/improve these docs, in "wiki mode" to 
make it as easy as possible

3) MUST clearly identify these docs as being "for beginners" and 
"reviewed by an editor of the Cocoon team" to prevent beginners from 
getting lost in obsolete/unreliable docs

4) SHOULD make these docs and their comments searchable, separately from 
the technical and/or unchecked existing docs to prevent beginners from 
being overwhelmed with irrelevant search results.

5) MUST allow all wiki docs (these and existing ones) to be searchable 
simultaneously, to prevent users from having to search in X different 
places for info.

6) SHOULD be integrated with existing Cocoon community tools to avoid 
fragmentation of skills and resources (for me it is actually a MUST ;-)

What do you think?

-Bertrand




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--
Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
SAXESS Software Design GmbH
Neuenhöfer Allee 125
50935 Köln
Telefon: +49-221-56011-0
Fax: +49-221-56011-20
E-Mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: newbies documentation - requirements?

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
>. . .

short answer: join the party of course!


Cool!

>. . .

set up 2nd Wiki in the same domain (parallel to the cocoon-wiki)
dedicated to the newbies. 
>. . .

Again, I'm *very* reluctant about having yet another information source: 
fragmentation has already killed several projects related to Cocoon and 
I wouldn't want this to happen once again.

But I think I see your point too, so how about agreeing on the 
requirements first? This would help us focus on getting the right solution.

Here's my proposal for these requirements, please correct/complete as 
needed:

Cocoon "newbie docs" requirements:

1) GOAL: create a source of reliable information for Cocoon newbies, 
along the lines of "how to setup Cocoon in 15 minutes" and ""HOWTO setup 
your intranet with XML in 1 day"

2) MUST allow users to comment/improve these docs, in "wiki mode" to 
make it as easy as possible

3) MUST clearly identify these docs as being "for beginners" and 
"reviewed by an editor of the Cocoon team" to prevent beginners from 
getting lost in obsolete/unreliable docs

4) SHOULD make these docs and their comments searchable, separately from 
the technical and/or unchecked existing docs to prevent beginners from 
being overwhelmed with irrelevant search results.

5) MUST allow all wiki docs (these and existing ones) to be searchable 
simultaneously, to prevent users from having to search in X different 
places for info.

6) SHOULD be integrated with existing Cocoon community tools to avoid 
fragmentation of skills and resources (for me it is actually a MUST ;-)

What do you think?

-Bertrand




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