[CODE4LIB] Position available: Lead Metadata Librarian and Methodist Cataloger
Drew University Library seeks an innovative, collaborative and forward-thinking librarian to provide leadership for metadata services as well as expertise cataloging materials for Drew’s renowned Methodist collections. The Lead Metadata Librarian and Methodist Cataloger coordinates cataloging workflow and works with colleagues in the Library and the General Commission on Archives and History of the United Methodist Church to plan, implement and assess metadata strategies that improve discovery of resources in all formats. This is a Library Faculty position with collection development and university service responsibilities. *Required: * · MLS from an ALA-accredited program · Strong working knowledge of current bibliographic standards including AACR2, LC classification, LCSH, and MARC and non-MARC metadata formats · Experience cataloging serials · Experience working with OCLC or other bibliographic utility and an ILS, preferably SirsiDynix · Demonstrated ability to analyze workflow, establish procedures, effectively communicate them, and assess results · Minimum 3 years experience in an academic or research library · Solid interpersonal and communication skills, and the ability to work both independently and collaboratively in a collegial environment Preferred: · Working knowledge of RDA and FRBR/FRAD · Experience working with vendor services such as authority control · Supervisory experience · Familiarity with digital repository software and experience with providing metadata for digitized content · Familiarity with The United Methodist Church and related denominations in the Wesleyan tradition A detailed position description is available at http://www.drew.edu/library/?p=7146. To apply, please submit a letter of application and curriculum vitae along with the names and email addresses of three references to hr071...@drew.edu* . *The application deadline is August 9, 2013. To enrich education through diversity, Drew University is an AA/EOE. In accordance with Department of Homeland Security regulations, successful applicant must be legally able to work in the United States. -- Dorothy Meaney Director for University Planning and Assessment Head of Collection and Metadata Services, Library Drew University 36 Madison Ave. Madison, NJ 07940 973-408-3479 dmea...@drew.edu
[CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
Not intending to start a language flame war/holy war here, but in the library coding community, is there a particular reason to use Ruby over Python or vice-versa? I am personally comfortable with Python, but I have noticed that there is a big Ruby following in Code4Lib and similar communities. Am I going to be able to contribute and work better with the community if I use Ruby rather than Python? I am 100% aware that there is no objective way to answer which of the two languages is the best. I am interested in the much more narrow question of which will work better for library-related scripting projects in terms of the following factors: -existing modules that I can re-use that are related to libraries (MARC tools, XML/RDF tools, modules released by major vendors, etc) -availability of help from others in the community -interest/ability of others to re-use my code Thanks. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
Salvete! More importantly, am I the only one that sees a classic Highlander inspired Code4Lib T Shirt in this? From the makers of the beating a dead horse graphic and the OCLC seal of approval... Make it so! Cheers, Brooke
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
IMO, you will be equally productive and connected to the community whether you use Ruby or Python. Let a thousand flowers bloom, and all that rot. -Mike P.S. WHTESPCE On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 8:43 AM, Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edu wrote: Not intending to start a language flame war/holy war here, but in the library coding community, is there a particular reason to use Ruby over Python or vice-versa? I am personally comfortable with Python, but I have noticed that there is a big Ruby following in Code4Lib and similar communities. Am I going to be able to contribute and work better with the community if I use Ruby rather than Python? I am 100% aware that there is no objective way to answer which of the two languages is the best. I am interested in the much more narrow question of which will work better for library-related scripting projects in terms of the following factors: -existing modules that I can re-use that are related to libraries (MARC tools, XML/RDF tools, modules released by major vendors, etc) -availability of help from others in the community -interest/ability of others to re-use my code Thanks. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
Josh, I think it depends on the project you're looking to get involved with. Speaking as a rubyist, I'm using it because I'm active in the Hydra community which uses Ruby on Rails. However, I see a lot of great stuff across the Python fence and think, hey it'd be cool to learn enough about Python so I can do that. So Python's next on my list of languages to learn. Incidentally, the whole reason I learned Ruby was to start using Hydra… so for me it came down the project. For now, I would go with what you know (Python) and if you see something in particular that will really solve a problem that you have and it happens to be in X, then maybe learn a little bit of X to take that software for a test drive and if it works, learn X some more. To address the the last three points regarding Ruby and Python, I think there are tools for either, ex: PyMarc and RubyMarc… and the communities for both Python and Ruby are large and very healthy. I should also add that being my own sys. admin., I avoided the (potential) issue of trying to convince your sys. admin. or hosting service, etc. that you want to use Rails, for example, instead of the web platform you're currently using. …adam __ Adam Wead Systems and Digital Collections Librarian Library + Archives Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum 216.515.1960 aw...@rockhall.org On Jul 29, 2013, at 11:43 AM, Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edu wrote: Not intending to start a language flame war/holy war here, but in the library coding community, is there a particular reason to use Ruby over Python or vice-versa? I am personally comfortable with Python, but I have noticed that there is a big Ruby following in Code4Lib and similar communities. Am I going to be able to contribute and work better with the community if I use Ruby rather than Python? I am 100% aware that there is no objective way to answer which of the two languages is the best. I am interested in the much more narrow question of which will work better for library-related scripting projects in terms of the following factors: -existing modules that I can re-use that are related to libraries (MARC tools, XML/RDF tools, modules released by major vendors, etc) -availability of help from others in the community -interest/ability of others to re-use my code Thanks. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022 This communication is a confidential and proprietary business communication. It is intended solely for the use of the designated recipient(s). If this communication is received in error, please contact the sender and delete this communication.
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
Yes, we wouldn't want a flame war, besides, everyone knows that real programmers use APL. X ← 3 3⍴÷⍳9 ⋄ Y ← DATA[⍋DATA] ⍝ If you can read this, nice font choices Really, your message is a grenade. If you want to build a Python community in the library world, create a compelling project. I am sure that many folks have been inspired to learn RoR because of Hydra. You could do the same for Python (or Scala or Haskell or APL). Python is a nice language, and I use it for systems scripting, mostly because I don't love Perl. Cary On Jul 29, 2013, at 8:43 AM, Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edu wrote: Not intending to start a language flame war/holy war here, but in the library coding community, is there a particular reason to use Ruby over Python or vice-versa? I am personally comfortable with Python, but I have noticed that there is a big Ruby following in Code4Lib and similar communities. Am I going to be able to contribute and work better with the community if I use Ruby rather than Python? I am 100% aware that there is no objective way to answer which of the two languages is the best. I am interested in the much more narrow question of which will work better for library-related scripting projects in terms of the following factors: -existing modules that I can re-use that are related to libraries (MARC tools, XML/RDF tools, modules released by major vendors, etc) -availability of help from others in the community -interest/ability of others to re-use my code Thanks. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
Also, Ruby is just Python with end statements. So if you learn one, you're mostly learning the other. ;) -Mike On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:27 AM, Cary Gordon listu...@chillco.com wrote: Yes, we wouldn't want a flame war, besides, everyone knows that real programmers use APL. X ← 3 3⍴÷⍳9 ⋄ Y ← DATA[⍋DATA] ⍝ If you can read this, nice font choices Really, your message is a grenade. If you want to build a Python community in the library world, create a compelling project. I am sure that many folks have been inspired to learn RoR because of Hydra. You could do the same for Python (or Scala or Haskell or APL). Python is a nice language, and I use it for systems scripting, mostly because I don't love Perl. Cary On Jul 29, 2013, at 8:43 AM, Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edu wrote: Not intending to start a language flame war/holy war here, but in the library coding community, is there a particular reason to use Ruby over Python or vice-versa? I am personally comfortable with Python, but I have noticed that there is a big Ruby following in Code4Lib and similar communities. Am I going to be able to contribute and work better with the community if I use Ruby rather than Python? I am 100% aware that there is no objective way to answer which of the two languages is the best. I am interested in the much more narrow question of which will work better for library-related scripting projects in terms of the following factors: -existing modules that I can re-use that are related to libraries (MARC tools, XML/RDF tools, modules released by major vendors, etc) -availability of help from others in the community -interest/ability of others to re-use my code Thanks. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
APL, of course! On Jul 29, 2013, at 9:57 AM, Peter Schlumpf pschlu...@earthlink.net wrote: Python and Ruby (and any other programming languages) are just tools. Some do some things better than others. Imagine if the library community had its own programming/scripting language, at least one that is domain relevant. What would it look like? Peter Schlumpf -Original Message- From: Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edu Sent: Jul 29, 2013 10:43 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby Not intending to start a language flame war/holy war here, but in the library coding community, is there a particular reason to use Ruby over Python or vice-versa? I am personally comfortable with Python, but I have noticed that there is a big Ruby following in Code4Lib and similar communities. Am I going to be able to contribute and work better with the community if I use Ruby rather than Python? I am 100% aware that there is no objective way to answer which of the two languages is the best. I am interested in the much more narrow question of which will work better for library-related scripting projects in terms of the following factors: -existing modules that I can re-use that are related to libraries (MARC tools, XML/RDF tools, modules released by major vendors, etc) -availability of help from others in the community -interest/ability of others to re-use my code Thanks. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Peter Schlumpf pschlu...@earthlink.net wrote: Imagine if the library community had its own programming/scripting language, at least one that is domain relevant. What would it look like? Whatever else it had, it would have to have a sophisticated way to inspect text for patterns -- that is, regular expressions. Roy
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Peter Schlumpf pschlu...@earthlink.net wrote: Imagine if the library community had its own programming/scripting language, at least one that is domain relevant. What would it look like? Ok, I think I'm going to have nightmares about that. //Ed
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
Hi, A programming language for the library community sounds great! When do we begin? Thanks, Cornel Darden Jr. MSLIS Librarian Kennedy-King College City Colleges of Chicago Work 773-602-5449 Cell 708-705-2945 On Jul 29, 2013, at 11:57 AM, Peter Schlumpf pschlu...@earthlink.net wrote: Python and Ruby (and any other programming languages) are just tools. Some do some things better than others. Imagine if the library community had its own programming/scripting language, at least one that is domain relevant. What would it look like? Peter Schlumpf -Original Message- From: Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edu Sent: Jul 29, 2013 10:43 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby Not intending to start a language flame war/holy war here, but in the library coding community, is there a particular reason to use Ruby over Python or vice-versa? I am personally comfortable with Python, but I have noticed that there is a big Ruby following in Code4Lib and similar communities. Am I going to be able to contribute and work better with the community if I use Ruby rather than Python? I am 100% aware that there is no objective way to answer which of the two languages is the best. I am interested in the much more narrow question of which will work better for library-related scripting projects in terms of the following factors: -existing modules that I can re-use that are related to libraries (MARC tools, XML/RDF tools, modules released by major vendors, etc) -availability of help from others in the community -interest/ability of others to re-use my code Thanks. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
Ed Summers writes Ok, I think I'm going to have nightmares about that. It will have to support tippex on screens. Cheers, Thomas Krichelhttp://openlib.org/home/krichel skype:thomaskrichel
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
On 7/29/2013 1:04 PM, Ed Summers wrote: Ok, I think I'm going to have nightmares about that. //Ed Over the code or the manual? --jimm
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 1:08 PM, jimm wetherbee j...@wingate.edu wrote: On 7/29/2013 1:04 PM, Ed Summers wrote: Ok, I think I'm going to have nightmares about that. //Ed Over the code or the manual? Over the NISO standardization process required to form the exploratory committee. -Ross. --jimm --
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
I think it mostly comes down to what you're looking for out of the language choice. Both are great language. I love the explicitness and community around Python, the meta-programming features of Ruby are a lot of fun as well. Both have great communities that support a lot of diversity. I feel python comes out a bit better on this but only just a bit. Some great fits for Python in libraries. - Syntax is easy to learn so if you have to get a team working on the same skillset this is a big advantage. - If you need to work with scholars who need to learn programming, the easy of learning python is a big advantage here. - If you work in natural language processing or with geo-spacial data then python is particularly well suited. - You need a stable language with good backwards compatibility. Some great fits for Ruby in libraries: - If you do a lot of web development Rails is an obvious advantage, though rails dominance is almost a disservice to the Ruby community by how much it obscures the language. - If you work with unstructured data I think Ruby comes out a little on top (just a little) and there are some neat meta-programming techniques to read and work with XML in ruby. - You work in a DevOps environment and need to do a lot of server provisioning, the Puppet library offers a lot to a group and leverages Ruby. - In libraries custom Fedora repository work is often done using the Hydra gems I don't think there's one better choice, it just comes down to knowing what you need to develop as far as a local community goes and picking the one that is best suited for those use cases. That said, I tend to enjoy working in Python more than Ruby. Most of my gripes with Ruby are actually probably with Rails so as a language I really do think they are both fine and I only have a slight preference for one. On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:43 AM, Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edu wrote: Not intending to start a language flame war/holy war here, but in the library coding community, is there a particular reason to use Ruby over Python or vice-versa? I am personally comfortable with Python, but I have noticed that there is a big Ruby following in Code4Lib and similar communities. Am I going to be able to contribute and work better with the community if I use Ruby rather than Python? I am 100% aware that there is no objective way to answer which of the two languages is the best. I am interested in the much more narrow question of which will work better for library-related scripting projects in terms of the following factors: -existing modules that I can re-use that are related to libraries (MARC tools, XML/RDF tools, modules released by major vendors, etc) -availability of help from others in the community -interest/ability of others to re-use my code Thanks. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022 -- *Scott Turnbull* APTrust Technical Lead scott.turnb...@aptrust.org www.aptrust.org 678-379-9488
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
Did someone ask for a Hydra-like thing using Python? https://github.com/emory-libraries/eulfedora It's really a pretty cool piece of work, and worth a look, even if you're absolutely sure RoR (or PHP and Drupal, or Java) is your thing. -- HARDY POTTINGER pottinge...@umsystem.edu University of Missouri Library Systems http://lso.umsystem.edu/~pottingerhj/ https://MOspace.umsystem.edu/ And remember, also added the Princesss of Sweet Rhyme, that many places you would like to see are just off the Map and many things you want to know are just out of sight or a little beyond your reach. But someday you'll reach them after all, for what you learn today, for no reason at all, will help you discover all the wonderful secrets of tomorrow. --Norton Juster, The Phantom Tollbooth On 7/29/13 11:42 AM, Michael J. Giarlo leftw...@alumni.rutgers.edu wrote: Also, Ruby is just Python with end statements. So if you learn one, you're mostly learning the other. ;) -Mike On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:27 AM, Cary Gordon listu...@chillco.com wrote: Yes, we wouldn't want a flame war, besides, everyone knows that real programmers use APL. X ← 3 3⍴÷⍳9 ⋄ Y ← DATA[⍋DATA] ⍝ If you can read this, nice font choices Really, your message is a grenade. If you want to build a Python community in the library world, create a compelling project. I am sure that many folks have been inspired to learn RoR because of Hydra. You could do the same for Python (or Scala or Haskell or APL). Python is a nice language, and I use it for systems scripting, mostly because I don't love Perl. Cary On Jul 29, 2013, at 8:43 AM, Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edu wrote: Not intending to start a language flame war/holy war here, but in the library coding community, is there a particular reason to use Ruby over Python or vice-versa? I am personally comfortable with Python, but I have noticed that there is a big Ruby following in Code4Lib and similar communities. Am I going to be able to contribute and work better with the community if I use Ruby rather than Python? I am 100% aware that there is no objective way to answer which of the two languages is the best. I am interested in the much more narrow question of which will work better for library-related scripting projects in terms of the following factors: -existing modules that I can re-use that are related to libraries (MARC tools, XML/RDF tools, modules released by major vendors, etc) -availability of help from others in the community -interest/ability of others to re-use my code Thanks. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
Josh, I work exclusively with XSLT but specialize in metadata only no need for content display choices maybe a candidate for library programming language...XSLT 2.0 has useful analyze-string element to cover Roy's point by the way, Josh, live just down the road in Leeton regards, dana On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Roy Tennant roytenn...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Peter Schlumpf pschlu...@earthlink.net wrote: Imagine if the library community had its own programming/scripting language, at least one that is domain relevant. What would it look like? Whatever else it had, it would have to have a sophisticated way to inspect text for patterns -- that is, regular expressions. Roy -- Dana Pearson dbpearsonmlis.com
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
One thing to factor in is that if you learn ruby you run the risk of becoming one of those people who constantly talks,tweets,blogs, posts to this mailing list about how great ruby is. This can have a very negative impact on your work productivity. On Monday, July 29, 2013, Dana Pearson wrote: Josh, I work exclusively with XSLT but specialize in metadata only no need for content display choices maybe a candidate for library programming language...XSLT 2.0 has useful analyze-string element to cover Roy's point by the way, Josh, live just down the road in Leeton regards, dana On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Roy Tennant roytenn...@gmail.comjavascript:; wrote: On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Peter Schlumpf pschlu...@earthlink.netjavascript:; wrote: Imagine if the library community had its own programming/scripting language, at least one that is domain relevant. What would it look like? Whatever else it had, it would have to have a sophisticated way to inspect text for patterns -- that is, regular expressions. Roy -- Dana Pearson dbpearsonmlis.com
[CODE4LIB] Job: Web Developer, Digital Library Initiatives at North Carolina State University
The Web Developer (BTAA) is a member of Digital Library Initiatives, an NCSU Libraries department that develops innovative projects to advance end-user resource discovery and use of library services. **Essential Job Duties** The position plays a lead role in application design, enhancement, and implementation projects, working closely with functional staff to assess client needs and determine appropriate technical solutions to resolve business problems. Responsible for analyzing pros and cons of local development, open source options, and commercial solutions and making recommendations to the Digital Collections team; helps manage projects through full life cycle from requirements definition through product testing and deployment. Uses a variety of technologies including Ruby, Rails, JavaScript, PHP, and MySQL to design, develop, and maintain library applications. Installs, implements, and evaluates open source and commercial applications as relevant. Works with other programming staff to provide excellent customer service for supported applications and allocate tasks effectively across team members; provides mentorship in application design practices as appropriate. **Required Skills** * Knowledge and experience designing and developing relatively complex web-based applications utilizing one or more open source programming languages (e.g. Ruby, PHP, or Python), JavaScript, and CSS. * Experience designing and querying relational databases. * Experience adapting quickly to changing technologies. * Excellent written and oral communication skills necessary to develop functional documentation and communicate clearly with business stakeholders about technical issues. * Excellent interpersonal skills and ability to work both independently and as part of a collaborative team. **Preferred Experience and Skills** * Experience managing implementation projects and working directly with functional customers. * Experience with a variety of web services and web technologies such as object-oriented frameworks (Rails, Zend) and jQuery as well as HTML5 and related technologies. * Knowledge of best practices in accessibility for web applications. * Experience using a version control tool like Git for code management. * Experience managing or contributing code to open source projects. **Minimum Experience/Education** Bachelor's degree with nine credit hours in programming and one year of experience in business application consulting or development; or equivalent combination of training and experience. All degrees must be received from appropriately accredited institutions. See full vacancy announcement with application instructions and hiring range at [http://go.ncsu.edu/mqpk3j](http://go.ncsu.edu/mqpk3j) AA/OEO. NC State welcomes all persons without regard to sexual orientation or genetic information. For ADA accommodations, please call (919) 515-3148 Brought to you by code4lib jobs: http://jobs.code4lib.org/job/9294/
[CODE4LIB] Code4Lib Midwest 2013
*Code4Lib Midwest 2013 October 13-14 Pappajohn Business Building, University of Iowa Iowa City, Iowa* Please join us Sunday, October 13, and Monday, October 14, in Iowa City for the Code4Lib Midwest 2013 conference! This informal conference will feature short lightning talks, longer presentations, workshops, and breakout discussion sessions covering technology in libraries, archives and museums in the Midwest. A preliminary schedule can be found on the Code4Lib Midwest wiki (http://wiki.code4lib.org/index.php/Midwest). * I’m not really a coder. Can I still come to Code4Lib Midwest?* Absolutely! Code4Lib events are always open to people who don’t think of themselves as coders but who want to learn more about using technology in libraries and cultural heritage institutions. Not all of the talks and breakout sessions will be about “code,” either. Topics like digital preservation, digital media, and metadata are totally fair game at Code4Lib. *How much does it cost? What are the logistics?* Nothing! Registration for Code4Lib Midwest is free. Just add your name to the list on the wiki (http://wiki.code4lib.org/index.php/Midwest), and you’re registered. If you don’t have a wiki account and don’t want to sign up for one, e-mail Shawn Averkamp (shawn-averk...@uiowa.edu) or Emily Shaw ( emily-f-s...@uiowa.edu) to be added to the list. A block of rooms has been reserved in the Sheraton Iowa City Hotel at $99 per night for Saturday and Sunday nights. More logistical information is available on the wiki. *How do I propose a talk/workshop/discussion?* Just add it to the wiki (http://wiki.code4lib.org/index.php/Midwest). We have room for up to 20 presentations (15-20 minutes each) and around 20 lightning talks (5 minutes each), so don’t be shy. We want to hear about what you’re doing. Hope to see you there! --The Code4Lib Midwest 2013 Planning Committee Emily Shaw, Shawn Averkamp, Becky Yoose, Julia Bauder, Wendy Robertson, and Matthew Butler
[CODE4LIB] Code4Lib Northwest
Hi! I was just looking at the Code4Libraries site for the regions and saw that the Northwest link went to an old google group: https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/pnwcode4lib Is there anyone active in coding for libraries in the Northwest in a new discussion group/conference/etc? Thanks in advance! Amy -- Amy Vecchione, Digital Access Librarian/Assistant Professor http://works.bepress.com/amy_vecchione/ Albertsons Library, Boise State University, L212 http://library.boisestate.edu (208) 426-1625
Re: [CODE4LIB] Code4Lib Northwest
There certainly is. We held a Code4Lib NW a few years ago in Portland. It was well attended. I think it would be great we could get better organized about an annual(?) event. I've also been batting around the idea of doing a regional LODLAM Summit event for the West/Northwest. I'm hoping to have that put together for early next year. - Tom On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Amy Vecchione amyvecchi...@boisestate.edu wrote: Hi! I was just looking at the Code4Libraries site for the regions and saw that the Northwest link went to an old google group: https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/pnwcode4lib Is there anyone active in coding for libraries in the Northwest in a new discussion group/conference/etc? Thanks in advance! Amy -- Amy Vecchione, Digital Access Librarian/Assistant Professor http://works.bepress.com/amy_vecchione/ Albertsons Library, Boise State University, L212 http://library.boisestate.edu (208) 426-1625
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
Thanks, this is more along the lines I was looking for. I started using Python because PHP (my usual web language of choice) has quite poor libraries for SOAP requests, and Python was easy to use as a glue script to fill the SOAP holes in my program. One of the things I wanted to ask that went largely unanswered is what kinds of typical library coding activities are not very well supported in either language? For instance: -MARC i/o (both have this covered, I know, but it is a prime example) -XML tools -SPARQL tools -Working with Solr -MySQL/Postgres tools -Screen scraping tools -SOAP/REST tools ...etc. And I am limiting my inquiry to Python and Ruby because I am looking for quick glue script languages and not something to write a whole web app. For instance, something I can schedule as a cron task to get some remote data and index it locally. I would use PHP or Java for a full-blown application. I guess I should include Perl in the discussion, too, but Perl's syntax is a little heady for me. I am not trying to be incendiary here, so I hope you all do not respond to me as such. I think these are pretty reasonable and concrete questions. It's not like I'm asking What's the best language? in a general and open-ended way. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022 -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott Turnbull Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 12:17 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby I think it mostly comes down to what you're looking for out of the language choice. Both are great language. I love the explicitness and community around Python, the meta-programming features of Ruby are a lot of fun as well. Both have great communities that support a lot of diversity. I feel python comes out a bit better on this but only just a bit. Some great fits for Python in libraries. - Syntax is easy to learn so if you have to get a team working on the same skillset this is a big advantage. - If you need to work with scholars who need to learn programming, the easy of learning python is a big advantage here. - If you work in natural language processing or with geo-spacial data then python is particularly well suited. - You need a stable language with good backwards compatibility. Some great fits for Ruby in libraries: - If you do a lot of web development Rails is an obvious advantage, though rails dominance is almost a disservice to the Ruby community by how much it obscures the language. - If you work with unstructured data I think Ruby comes out a little on top (just a little) and there are some neat meta-programming techniques to read and work with XML in ruby. - You work in a DevOps environment and need to do a lot of server provisioning, the Puppet library offers a lot to a group and leverages Ruby. - In libraries custom Fedora repository work is often done using the Hydra gems I don't think there's one better choice, it just comes down to knowing what you need to develop as far as a local community goes and picking the one that is best suited for those use cases. That said, I tend to enjoy working in Python more than Ruby. Most of my gripes with Ruby are actually probably with Rails so as a language I really do think they are both fine and I only have a slight preference for one. On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:43 AM, Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edu wrote: Not intending to start a language flame war/holy war here, but in the library coding community, is there a particular reason to use Ruby over Python or vice-versa? I am personally comfortable with Python, but I have noticed that there is a big Ruby following in Code4Lib and similar communities. Am I going to be able to contribute and work better with the community if I use Ruby rather than Python? I am 100% aware that there is no objective way to answer which of the two languages is the best. I am interested in the much more narrow question of which will work better for library-related scripting projects in terms of the following factors: -existing modules that I can re-use that are related to libraries (MARC tools, XML/RDF tools, modules released by major vendors, etc) -availability of help from others in the community -interest/ability of others to re-use my code Thanks. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022 -- *Scott Turnbull* APTrust Technical Lead scott.turnb...@aptrust.org www.aptrust.org 678-379-9488
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
Library community programming is heavy on the string processing, right? So, just use a language that's good for that. Anyway, once you learn one, it's faster to learn another. -Wilhelmina Randtke On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Peter Schlumpf pschlu...@earthlink.netwrote: Python and Ruby (and any other programming languages) are just tools. Some do some things better than others. Imagine if the library community had its own programming/scripting language, at least one that is domain relevant. What would it look like? Peter Schlumpf -Original Message- From: Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edu Sent: Jul 29, 2013 10:43 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby Not intending to start a language flame war/holy war here, but in the library coding community, is there a particular reason to use Ruby over Python or vice-versa? I am personally comfortable with Python, but I have noticed that there is a big Ruby following in Code4Lib and similar communities. Am I going to be able to contribute and work better with the community if I use Ruby rather than Python? I am 100% aware that there is no objective way to answer which of the two languages is the best. I am interested in the much more narrow question of which will work better for library-related scripting projects in terms of the following factors: -existing modules that I can re-use that are related to libraries (MARC tools, XML/RDF tools, modules released by major vendors, etc) -availability of help from others in the community -interest/ability of others to re-use my code Thanks. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
I can only answer for the Ruby support, I can't compare Ruby libs to Python libs on these, but: MARC: there's Ruby-MARC. I helped write it, so I'm biased. XML tools: depends on what you need. In general, Ruby doesn't have great support for sophisticated XML problems. Nokogiri has a great API for DOM parsing. Code4libbers have reported plenty of frustrations with bugs, though. SAX support exists, but is wanting. See also, xslt. You can use the fairly close to the metal libxml ruby bindings, as well, but the API is very non-Ruby. SPARQL tools: rdf.rb provides some fantastic libraries. There's a SPARQL gem, although it doesn't provide SPARQL update or property paths ( https://github.com/ruby-rdf/sparql). That only matters to you, if, you know, it matters to you. Solr: There's rsolr and sunspot. If you ever decide you'd like to try ElasticSearch, there's Tire, which is great (I use it all the time). MySQL/PostgreSQL: there are lots of ORMs, if that's what you're looking for. ActiveRecord is the most common, although DataMapper has a better API (IMO). I use Sequel a lot for performance or for PostgreSQL-specific functionality (array/hstore fields, etc.) Screen scraping tools: these exist, but I'm not all the familiar with them. I mostly just use HTTParty and Nokogiri. SOAP: Again, YMMV with this. I think Savon has a fantastic API, but I have no idea how well it deals with the vagaries of different SOAP server responses. REST: There's the aforementioned HTTParty, although rest-client is probably the most commonly used. I think it's probably unrealistic to expect one language to handle all of these well (well, there's Java, but then you've got other factors to weigh). I've found Ruby to be a pretty good all-purpose language. Most of my maintenance tools are written in Ruby as rake tasks (despite the fact that the primary project I work on is written in PHP). It helps that Ruby's performance is beginning to catch up to Python's (although Python is still faster for most things, I think). -Ross. On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 3:19 PM, Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edu wrote: Thanks, this is more along the lines I was looking for. I started using Python because PHP (my usual web language of choice) has quite poor libraries for SOAP requests, and Python was easy to use as a glue script to fill the SOAP holes in my program. One of the things I wanted to ask that went largely unanswered is what kinds of typical library coding activities are not very well supported in either language? For instance: -MARC i/o (both have this covered, I know, but it is a prime example) -XML tools -SPARQL tools -Working with Solr -MySQL/Postgres tools -Screen scraping tools -SOAP/REST tools ...etc. And I am limiting my inquiry to Python and Ruby because I am looking for quick glue script languages and not something to write a whole web app. For instance, something I can schedule as a cron task to get some remote data and index it locally. I would use PHP or Java for a full-blown application. I guess I should include Perl in the discussion, too, but Perl's syntax is a little heady for me. I am not trying to be incendiary here, so I hope you all do not respond to me as such. I think these are pretty reasonable and concrete questions. It's not like I'm asking What's the best language? in a general and open-ended way. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022 -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott Turnbull Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 12:17 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby I think it mostly comes down to what you're looking for out of the language choice. Both are great language. I love the explicitness and community around Python, the meta-programming features of Ruby are a lot of fun as well. Both have great communities that support a lot of diversity. I feel python comes out a bit better on this but only just a bit. Some great fits for Python in libraries. - Syntax is easy to learn so if you have to get a team working on the same skillset this is a big advantage. - If you need to work with scholars who need to learn programming, the easy of learning python is a big advantage here. - If you work in natural language processing or with geo-spacial data then python is particularly well suited. - You need a stable language with good backwards compatibility. Some great fits for Ruby in libraries: - If you do a lot of web development Rails is an obvious advantage, though rails dominance is almost a disservice to the Ruby community by how much it obscures the language. - If you work with unstructured data I think Ruby comes out a little on top (just a little) and there are some neat meta-programming techniques to read and work with XML in
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
s/ruby/any_language/ Why not learn both? As with spoken languages, knowing more than one makes it easier for you to think at a higher level of abstraction and therefore a better developer, and, as others have alluded to, will allow you to choose the 'right tool [framework, library, etc] for the right job'. Plus, as Giarlo said, they're not really that different. From: Code for Libraries [CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] on behalf of Chris Fitzpatrick [chrisfitz...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 1:39 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby One thing to factor in is that if you learn ruby you run the risk of becoming one of those people who constantly talks,tweets,blogs, posts to this mailing list about how great ruby is. This can have a very negative impact on your work productivity. On Monday, July 29, 2013, Dana Pearson wrote: Josh, I work exclusively with XSLT but specialize in metadata only no need for content display choices maybe a candidate for library programming language...XSLT 2.0 has useful analyze-string element to cover Roy's point by the way, Josh, live just down the road in Leeton regards, dana On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Roy Tennant roytenn...@gmail.comjavascript:; wrote: On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Peter Schlumpf pschlu...@earthlink.netjavascript:; wrote: Imagine if the library community had its own programming/scripting language, at least one that is domain relevant. What would it look like? Whatever else it had, it would have to have a sophisticated way to inspect text for patterns -- that is, regular expressions. Roy -- Dana Pearson dbpearsonmlis.com
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you. And props for RubyMARC! I have heard lots of good things. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022 -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Ross Singer Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 2:55 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby I can only answer for the Ruby support, I can't compare Ruby libs to Python libs on these, but: MARC: there's Ruby-MARC. I helped write it, so I'm biased. XML tools: depends on what you need. In general, Ruby doesn't have great support for sophisticated XML problems. Nokogiri has a great API for DOM parsing. Code4libbers have reported plenty of frustrations with bugs, though. SAX support exists, but is wanting. See also, xslt. You can use the fairly close to the metal libxml ruby bindings, as well, but the API is very non-Ruby. SPARQL tools: rdf.rb provides some fantastic libraries. There's a SPARQL gem, although it doesn't provide SPARQL update or property paths ( https://github.com/ruby-rdf/sparql). That only matters to you, if, you know, it matters to you. Solr: There's rsolr and sunspot. If you ever decide you'd like to try ElasticSearch, there's Tire, which is great (I use it all the time). MySQL/PostgreSQL: there are lots of ORMs, if that's what you're looking for. ActiveRecord is the most common, although DataMapper has a better API (IMO). I use Sequel a lot for performance or for PostgreSQL-specific functionality (array/hstore fields, etc.) Screen scraping tools: these exist, but I'm not all the familiar with them. I mostly just use HTTParty and Nokogiri. SOAP: Again, YMMV with this. I think Savon has a fantastic API, but I have no idea how well it deals with the vagaries of different SOAP server responses. REST: There's the aforementioned HTTParty, although rest-client is probably the most commonly used. I think it's probably unrealistic to expect one language to handle all of these well (well, there's Java, but then you've got other factors to weigh). I've found Ruby to be a pretty good all-purpose language. Most of my maintenance tools are written in Ruby as rake tasks (despite the fact that the primary project I work on is written in PHP). It helps that Ruby's performance is beginning to catch up to Python's (although Python is still faster for most things, I think). -Ross. On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 3:19 PM, Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edu wrote: Thanks, this is more along the lines I was looking for. I started using Python because PHP (my usual web language of choice) has quite poor libraries for SOAP requests, and Python was easy to use as a glue script to fill the SOAP holes in my program. One of the things I wanted to ask that went largely unanswered is what kinds of typical library coding activities are not very well supported in either language? For instance: -MARC i/o (both have this covered, I know, but it is a prime example) -XML tools -SPARQL tools -Working with Solr -MySQL/Postgres tools -Screen scraping tools -SOAP/REST tools ...etc. And I am limiting my inquiry to Python and Ruby because I am looking for quick glue script languages and not something to write a whole web app. For instance, something I can schedule as a cron task to get some remote data and index it locally. I would use PHP or Java for a full-blown application. I guess I should include Perl in the discussion, too, but Perl's syntax is a little heady for me. I am not trying to be incendiary here, so I hope you all do not respond to me as such. I think these are pretty reasonable and concrete questions. It's not like I'm asking What's the best language? in a general and open-ended way. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022 -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott Turnbull Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 12:17 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby I think it mostly comes down to what you're looking for out of the language choice. Both are great language. I love the explicitness and community around Python, the meta-programming features of Ruby are a lot of fun as well. Both have great communities that support a lot of diversity. I feel python comes out a bit better on this but only just a bit. Some great fits for Python in libraries. - Syntax is easy to learn so if you have to get a team working on the same skillset this is a big advantage. - If you need to work with scholars who need to learn programming, the easy of learning python is a big advantage here. - If you work in natural language processing or with geo-spacial data then python is particularly
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
Personally, I prefer Python. If you are wanting to do more information science-y things, Ruby doesn't have equivalent libraries for things like the Natural Language Toolkithttp://nltk.org/ or SciPyhttp://www.scipy.org/. In Ruby's defense, Python doesn't have Blacklighthttp://projectblacklight.org/, and the Python packaging system is terrible. For XML, nothing beats Java. If you want to use XSLT 2.0 in software then the JVM is your only option. The JVM is undergoing a kind of renaissance with all the cool languages that can run on it now: Clojure, jRuby, Jython, Scala. With these languages you can enjoy the scriptyness, while also being able to bring in the heavy-duty Java XML libraries if they are needed. James Little Digital Programmer Otto G. Richter Library | University of Miami On Jul 29, 2013, at 3:51 PM, Wilhelmina Randtke rand...@gmail.commailto:rand...@gmail.com wrote: Library community programming is heavy on the string processing, right? So, just use a language that's good for that. Anyway, once you learn one, it's faster to learn another. -Wilhelmina Randtke On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Peter Schlumpf pschlu...@earthlink.netmailto:pschlu...@earthlink.netwrote: Python and Ruby (and any other programming languages) are just tools. Some do some things better than others. Imagine if the library community had its own programming/scripting language, at least one that is domain relevant. What would it look like? Peter Schlumpf -Original Message- From: Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edumailto:wel...@ucmo.edu Sent: Jul 29, 2013 10:43 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDUmailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby Not intending to start a language flame war/holy war here, but in the library coding community, is there a particular reason to use Ruby over Python or vice-versa? I am personally comfortable with Python, but I have noticed that there is a big Ruby following in Code4Lib and similar communities. Am I going to be able to contribute and work better with the community if I use Ruby rather than Python? I am 100% aware that there is no objective way to answer which of the two languages is the best. I am interested in the much more narrow question of which will work better for library-related scripting projects in terms of the following factors: -existing modules that I can re-use that are related to libraries (MARC tools, XML/RDF tools, modules released by major vendors, etc) -availability of help from others in the community -interest/ability of others to re-use my code Thanks. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
I know they are very similar and that I could learn both, and ideally I would. It's not so much that I am intimidated by learning another language as it is that I don't want to start a project in Python and then realize 75% through the project that Module X doesn't work with Filetype Y and that the community no longer exists and that I have to rewrite the whole thing in Ruby. (This is exactly what happened when I tried to build a SUSHI client in PHP and realized PHP's SOAP libraries were not compatible with the style of SOAP responses specified in the SUSHI standard, and it was a big headache I'd like to avoid in the future.) Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022 -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Jon P. Stroop Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 3:04 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby s/ruby/any_language/ Why not learn both? As with spoken languages, knowing more than one makes it easier for you to think at a higher level of abstraction and therefore a better developer, and, as others have alluded to, will allow you to choose the 'right tool [framework, library, etc] for the right job'. Plus, as Giarlo said, they're not really that different. From: Code for Libraries [CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] on behalf of Chris Fitzpatrick [chrisfitz...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 1:39 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby One thing to factor in is that if you learn ruby you run the risk of becoming one of those people who constantly talks,tweets,blogs, posts to this mailing list about how great ruby is. This can have a very negative impact on your work productivity. On Monday, July 29, 2013, Dana Pearson wrote: Josh, I work exclusively with XSLT but specialize in metadata only no need for content display choices maybe a candidate for library programming language...XSLT 2.0 has useful analyze-string element to cover Roy's point by the way, Josh, live just down the road in Leeton regards, dana On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Roy Tennant roytenn...@gmail.comjavascript:; wrote: On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Peter Schlumpf pschlu...@earthlink.netjavascript:; wrote: Imagine if the library community had its own programming/scripting language, at least one that is domain relevant. What would it look like? Whatever else it had, it would have to have a sophisticated way to inspect text for patterns -- that is, regular expressions. Roy -- Dana Pearson dbpearsonmlis.com
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
Hi, My first email was an attempt at humour. Sorry, I didn't mean to jack your thread. Ruby is my language of choice, but I have done some work in Python. For all the things you listed, there are libraries in both languages that are probably as good as each other. Python has lxml, which is as good as Ruby's Nokogiri for XML stuff. Python has Sunburnt for Solr stuff, although I do really like Sunspot (and Tire for ElasticSearch is even better). Both Python and Ruby have mechanize for screen scraping, which was actually based off a Perl's WWW::Mechanize library... I will say that while Ruby has more web application building tools, I think Python is still more popular with science-y type people. Python seems to be what all Programming 101 for Non-CS Students classes use now, so I think Python has more data processing/science libraries, especially for things like Natural Language Processing and statistics. I went to a Semantic Web workshop and everyone was using Python or Java, although there are some Ruby libraries out there... That said, JRuby has really come a long way in the past year, so now it's easier to use the bad-ass Java libraries ( like Marc4j, CoreNLP, and Java's XML libraries) without actually having to put up with all the crap Java makes you submit to. In terms of speed/performance both Ruby and Python are equally terrible. I guess I'd just recommend instead of learning both languages, I would push myself to learn one really really well. That was something I learned the hard way when I was younger...always learning a language just well enough to get comfortable then getting bored and trying something else. good luck! On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:03 PM, Jon P. Stroop jstr...@princeton.eduwrote: s/ruby/any_language/ Why not learn both? As with spoken languages, knowing more than one makes it easier for you to think at a higher level of abstraction and therefore a better developer, and, as others have alluded to, will allow you to choose the 'right tool [framework, library, etc] for the right job'. Plus, as Giarlo said, they're not really that different. From: Code for Libraries [CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] on behalf of Chris Fitzpatrick [chrisfitz...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 1:39 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby One thing to factor in is that if you learn ruby you run the risk of becoming one of those people who constantly talks,tweets,blogs, posts to this mailing list about how great ruby is. This can have a very negative impact on your work productivity. On Monday, July 29, 2013, Dana Pearson wrote: Josh, I work exclusively with XSLT but specialize in metadata only no need for content display choices maybe a candidate for library programming language...XSLT 2.0 has useful analyze-string element to cover Roy's point by the way, Josh, live just down the road in Leeton regards, dana On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Roy Tennant roytenn...@gmail.com javascript:; wrote: On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Peter Schlumpf pschlu...@earthlink.netjavascript:; wrote: Imagine if the library community had its own programming/scripting language, at least one that is domain relevant. What would it look like? Whatever else it had, it would have to have a sophisticated way to inspect text for patterns -- that is, regular expressions. Roy -- Dana Pearson dbpearsonmlis.com
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
I don't want to start a project in [Language_A] and then realize 75% through the project that Module X doesn't work with Filetype Y and that the community no longer exists and that I have to rewrite the whole thing in [Language_B]. I would just get used to that. On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 4:31 PM, Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edu wrote: I know they are very similar and that I could learn both, and ideally I would. It's not so much that I am intimidated by learning another language as it is that I don't want to start a project in Python and then realize 75% through the project that Module X doesn't work with Filetype Y and that the community no longer exists and that I have to rewrite the whole thing in Ruby. (This is exactly what happened when I tried to build a SUSHI client in PHP and realized PHP's SOAP libraries were not compatible with the style of SOAP responses specified in the SUSHI standard, and it was a big headache I'd like to avoid in the future.) Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022 -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Jon P. Stroop Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 3:04 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby s/ruby/any_language/ Why not learn both? As with spoken languages, knowing more than one makes it easier for you to think at a higher level of abstraction and therefore a better developer, and, as others have alluded to, will allow you to choose the 'right tool [framework, library, etc] for the right job'. Plus, as Giarlo said, they're not really that different. From: Code for Libraries [CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] on behalf of Chris Fitzpatrick [chrisfitz...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 1:39 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby One thing to factor in is that if you learn ruby you run the risk of becoming one of those people who constantly talks,tweets,blogs, posts to this mailing list about how great ruby is. This can have a very negative impact on your work productivity. On Monday, July 29, 2013, Dana Pearson wrote: Josh, I work exclusively with XSLT but specialize in metadata only no need for content display choices maybe a candidate for library programming language...XSLT 2.0 has useful analyze-string element to cover Roy's point by the way, Josh, live just down the road in Leeton regards, dana On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Roy Tennant roytenn...@gmail.comjavascript:; wrote: On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Peter Schlumpf pschlu...@earthlink.netjavascript:; wrote: Imagine if the library community had its own programming/scripting language, at least one that is domain relevant. What would it look like? Whatever else it had, it would have to have a sophisticated way to inspect text for patterns -- that is, regular expressions. Roy -- Dana Pearson dbpearsonmlis.com -- Sent from my GMail account.
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
Thanks for the insight. If I wanted to do a full scale semantic web application (nightmare scenario), I'd go Java anyway, not Python. I'm feeling more inclined to focus on Ruby rather than Python the more I read here. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022 -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Chris Fitzpatrick Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 3:34 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby Hi, My first email was an attempt at humour. Sorry, I didn't mean to jack your thread. Ruby is my language of choice, but I have done some work in Python. For all the things you listed, there are libraries in both languages that are probably as good as each other. Python has lxml, which is as good as Ruby's Nokogiri for XML stuff. Python has Sunburnt for Solr stuff, although I do really like Sunspot (and Tire for ElasticSearch is even better). Both Python and Ruby have mechanize for screen scraping, which was actually based off a Perl's WWW::Mechanize library... I will say that while Ruby has more web application building tools, I think Python is still more popular with science-y type people. Python seems to be what all Programming 101 for Non-CS Students classes use now, so I think Python has more data processing/science libraries, especially for things like Natural Language Processing and statistics. I went to a Semantic Web workshop and everyone was using Python or Java, although there are some Ruby libraries out there... That said, JRuby has really come a long way in the past year, so now it's easier to use the bad-ass Java libraries ( like Marc4j, CoreNLP, and Java's XML libraries) without actually having to put up with all the crap Java makes you submit to. In terms of speed/performance both Ruby and Python are equally terrible. I guess I'd just recommend instead of learning both languages, I would push myself to learn one really really well. That was something I learned the hard way when I was younger...always learning a language just well enough to get comfortable then getting bored and trying something else. good luck! On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:03 PM, Jon P. Stroop jstr...@princeton.eduwrote: s/ruby/any_language/ Why not learn both? As with spoken languages, knowing more than one makes it easier for you to think at a higher level of abstraction and therefore a better developer, and, as others have alluded to, will allow you to choose the 'right tool [framework, library, etc] for the right job'. Plus, as Giarlo said, they're not really that different. From: Code for Libraries [CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] on behalf of Chris Fitzpatrick [chrisfitz...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 1:39 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby One thing to factor in is that if you learn ruby you run the risk of becoming one of those people who constantly talks,tweets,blogs, posts to this mailing list about how great ruby is. This can have a very negative impact on your work productivity. On Monday, July 29, 2013, Dana Pearson wrote: Josh, I work exclusively with XSLT but specialize in metadata only no need for content display choices maybe a candidate for library programming language...XSLT 2.0 has useful analyze-string element to cover Roy's point by the way, Josh, live just down the road in Leeton regards, dana On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Roy Tennant roytenn...@gmail.com javascript:; wrote: On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Peter Schlumpf pschlu...@earthlink.netjavascript:; wrote: Imagine if the library community had its own programming/scripting language, at least one that is domain relevant. What would it look like? Whatever else it had, it would have to have a sophisticated way to inspect text for patterns -- that is, regular expressions. Roy -- Dana Pearson dbpearsonmlis.com
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
I am thinking after this discussion to start using Ruby instead of Python. Blacklight looks extremely useful, and Hydra is something I am going to look more at. Plus, data structures in Python just seem drastically overcomplicated coming from a C-family background (lists vs tuples vs dicts, and don't even think about trying to sort a dict by key). And as you mentioned the process of installing modules is just awful. I have also run into quite a few frustrations with the big split between Python 2.x and 3.x where some modules that are critical to me (such as Suds, the SOAP module) are 2.x only. It looks like Ruby has all the bases covered for me needs in MARC, screen scraping, etc, and it seems to have more momentum as far as projects active in the library world. Plus, SASS/Compass is amazing. And I hate Python whitespace. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022 -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Little, James Clarence IV Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 3:30 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby Personally, I prefer Python. If you are wanting to do more information science-y things, Ruby doesn't have equivalent libraries for things like the Natural Language Toolkithttp://nltk.org/ or SciPyhttp://www.scipy.org/. In Ruby's defense, Python doesn't have Blacklighthttp://projectblacklight.org/, and the Python packaging system is terrible. For XML, nothing beats Java. If you want to use XSLT 2.0 in software then the JVM is your only option. The JVM is undergoing a kind of renaissance with all the cool languages that can run on it now: Clojure, jRuby, Jython, Scala. With these languages you can enjoy the scriptyness, while also being able to bring in the heavy-duty Java XML libraries if they are needed. James Little Digital Programmer Otto G. Richter Library | University of Miami On Jul 29, 2013, at 3:51 PM, Wilhelmina Randtke rand...@gmail.commailto:rand...@gmail.com wrote: Library community programming is heavy on the string processing, right? So, just use a language that's good for that. Anyway, once you learn one, it's faster to learn another. -Wilhelmina Randtke On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Peter Schlumpf pschlu...@earthlink.netmailto:pschlu...@earthlink.netwrote: Python and Ruby (and any other programming languages) are just tools. Some do some things better than others. Imagine if the library community had its own programming/scripting language, at least one that is domain relevant. What would it look like? Peter Schlumpf -Original Message- From: Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edumailto:wel...@ucmo.edu Sent: Jul 29, 2013 10:43 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDUmailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby Not intending to start a language flame war/holy war here, but in the library coding community, is there a particular reason to use Ruby over Python or vice-versa? I am personally comfortable with Python, but I have noticed that there is a big Ruby following in Code4Lib and similar communities. Am I going to be able to contribute and work better with the community if I use Ruby rather than Python? I am 100% aware that there is no objective way to answer which of the two languages is the best. I am interested in the much more narrow question of which will work better for library-related scripting projects in terms of the following factors: -existing modules that I can re-use that are related to libraries (MARC tools, XML/RDF tools, modules released by major vendors, etc) -availability of help from others in the community -interest/ability of others to re-use my code Thanks. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 1:11 PM, Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com wrote: Over the NISO standardization process required to form the exploratory committee. Thanks for answering the question better than I could have ever dreamed of answering it. //Ed
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 4:38 PM, Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edu wrote: And I hate Python whitespace. Ah-ha! A more paranoid pythonista than I might suspect this whole thread was simply an exercise in Ruby shilling. --jay
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
Somebody needs to invent one, throw it out there and see what happens. -Original Message- From: Ed Summers e...@pobox.com Sent: Jul 29, 2013 4:06 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 1:11 PM, Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com wrote: Over the NISO standardization process required to form the exploratory committee. Thanks for answering the question better than I could have ever dreamed of answering it. //Ed
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
Ha. Actually I was hoping to feel good about just sticking with Python. But alas. Now I will get to find out all the annoying things about Ruby instead. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022 -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Jay Luker Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 4:11 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 4:38 PM, Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edu wrote: And I hate Python whitespace. Ah-ha! A more paranoid pythonista than I might suspect this whole thread was simply an exercise in Ruby shilling. --jay
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
Muahahahahahahaha! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA! And you walked right into it! You fools! -Ross. On Monday, July 29, 2013, Jay Luker wrote: On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 4:38 PM, Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edujavascript:; wrote: And I hate Python whitespace. Ah-ha! A more paranoid pythonista than I might suspect this whole thread was simply an exercise in Ruby shilling. --jay
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
Both Ruby and Python, have their strengths and weaknesses, and as others have mentioned, it will come down to need and existing projects you want to leverage. We use both Python and Ruby internally. Know your tools and their strengths and weaknesses. My personal interested is more and more revolved around natural language processing, and its potential in library based tools. Purging is quite strong in computational linguistics and has useful libraries for natural language processing. Andrew On 30/07/2013 1:43 AM, Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edu wrote: Not intending to start a language flame war/holy war here, but in the library coding community, is there a particular reason to use Ruby over Python or vice-versa? I am personally comfortable with Python, but I have noticed that there is a big Ruby following in Code4Lib and similar communities. Am I going to be able to contribute and work better with the community if I use Ruby rather than Python? I am 100% aware that there is no objective way to answer which of the two languages is the best. I am interested in the much more narrow question of which will work better for library-related scripting projects in terms of the following factors: -existing modules that I can re-use that are related to libraries (MARC tools, XML/RDF tools, modules released by major vendors, etc) -availability of help from others in the community -interest/ability of others to re-use my code Thanks. Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
And you would think Python developers would know how to... ( •_•) ( •_•)⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) read between the (whitespace) lines? YEAH On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com wrote: Muahahahahahahaha! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA! And you walked right into it! You fools! -Ross. On Monday, July 29, 2013, Jay Luker wrote: On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 4:38 PM, Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edu javascript:; wrote: And I hate Python whitespace. Ah-ha! A more paranoid pythonista than I might suspect this whole thread was simply an exercise in Ruby shilling. --jay
Re: [CODE4LIB] Python and Ruby
White space is potentially an illusion it isn't necessarilly there, esp when the whitespace is not a character ... ;) On 30/07/2013 8:02 AM, Michael J. Giarlo leftw...@alumni.rutgers.edu wrote: And you would think Python developers would know how to... ( •_•) ( •_•)⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) read between the (whitespace) lines? YEAH On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com wrote: Muahahahahahahaha! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA! And you walked right into it! You fools! -Ross. On Monday, July 29, 2013, Jay Luker wrote: On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 4:38 PM, Joshua Welker wel...@ucmo.edu javascript:; wrote: And I hate Python whitespace. Ah-ha! A more paranoid pythonista than I might suspect this whole thread was simply an exercise in Ruby shilling. --jay
Re: [CODE4LIB] Code4Lib Northwest
The c4l meetings in Portland all seemed to work pretty well. I'd be happy to help put another one together. kyle On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Tom Johnson johnson.tom+code4...@gmail.com wrote: There certainly is. We held a Code4Lib NW a few years ago in Portland. It was well attended. I think it would be great we could get better organized about an annual(?) event. I've also been batting around the idea of doing a regional LODLAM Summit event for the West/Northwest. I'm hoping to have that put together for early next year. - Tom On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Amy Vecchione amyvecchi...@boisestate.edu wrote: Hi! I was just looking at the Code4Libraries site for the regions and saw that the Northwest link went to an old google group: https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/pnwcode4lib Is there anyone active in coding for libraries in the Northwest in a new discussion group/conference/etc? Thanks in advance! Amy -- Amy Vecchione, Digital Access Librarian/Assistant Professor http://works.bepress.com/amy_vecchione/ Albertsons Library, Boise State University, L212 http://library.boisestate.edu (208) 426-1625
