start writing applications - how?
On the list I see next to no mails about people writing applications for moko. What would be the best way to start doing that? I'd prefer some script language over C or C++ by far. Has any script language been integrated into the openmoko default image these days, or would I need to install some ipkg files? Or even recompile to build my own package (something most people won't like, takes far too much time, cpu and disk space)? Are there any examples written in some script language that features beyond hello world, such as being optimized for the neo screen size and to be used with fingers, or even gestures, or are optimized to use the least amount of battery / cpu / memory? are optimized to be used / unused (e.g. is it preferable to save state and quit and be re-started or should the application rather sleep and not use the cpu unless it is selected by the user)? or any example app using data shared with other applications such as the address book etc? or some application with example code for syncing data with a pc/desktop application? sure, I understand openmoko is new and has a long way to go, and I'm very happy about everyone contributing. but I'm somehow worried that I see no discussion about these issues, or only I want type of discussions, but not how can I? or what is done / what can I do? even if none of these features I mentioned are available so far, that would be fine for me, at least I would know where we are so far and what I can already do and what I can't. having more information what the current status is would be great. but maybe it is me spending too little time ont he mailing list and wiki, and I need to read up? in that case I'm sorry for waisting your time and will do so (still a few links would be quite welcome). Thanks for your help! Regards, Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: start writing applications - how?
There are python packages available on both the repository and in the compilation output directory, you can install them with ipkg. Practically you don't need any moko specific example or documentation (except gsm/gps related issues, in which case you need to look at the code and interact with those services through dbus). Just consult the python/gtk examples and your code will run on any platform including moko. You don't need to do anything for the screen size, gtk is handling them very good. You may, however, want to optimize your design for a 480x640 display, which is done in application specific way (i.e., placing buttons in an optimized way.) So, there is nothing stopping you ;) Scripting is easy, however support for developing C/C++ applications is a disaster. You have to have the ability to touch your left ear with your right hand's thumb, while standing up-down on the other arm and break the 100m Olympic record on running (or better have a seat at FIC) to be able to write those applications. About the development platform, no central documentation (even no documentation at all), no community support so far. There was an announcement on the list about a development framework as far as I remember, but I heard nothing about it again. Emre Turkay On Nov 12, 2007 11:34 AM, Andreas Jellinghaus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On the list I see next to no mails about people writing applications for moko. What would be the best way to start doing that? I'd prefer some script language over C or C++ by far. Has any script language been integrated into the openmoko default image these days, or would I need to install some ipkg files? Or even recompile to build my own package (something most people won't like, takes far too much time, cpu and disk space)? Are there any examples written in some script language that featuresimplys beyond hello world, such as being optimized for the neo screen size and to be used with fingers, or even gestures, or are optimized to use the least amount of battery / cpu / memory? are optimized to be used / unused (e.g. is it preferable to save state and quit and be re-started or should the application rather sleep and not use the cpu unless it is selected by the user)? or any example app using data shared with other applications such as the address book etc? or some application with example code for syncing data with a pc/desktop application? sure, I understand openmoko is new and has a long way to go, and I'm very happy about everyone contributing. but I'm somehow worried that I see no discussion about these issues, or only I want type of discussions, but not how can I? or what is done / what can I do? even if none of these features I mentioned are available so far, that would be fine for me, at least I would know where we are so far and what I can already do and what I can't. having more information what the current status is would be great. but maybe it is me spending too little time ont he mailing list and wiki, and I need to read up? in that case I'm sorry for waisting your time and will do so (still a few links would be quite welcome). Thanks for your help! Regards, Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
developing C/C++ applications for OpenMoko -- where do we stand?
*** I HOPE I AM W-R-O-N-G!!! *** But this issue needs some discussion. Emre Turkay says below, (in essence) --developing scripts for OpenMono is relatively easy GOOD! -- writing C/++ OpenMoko apps is very difficult to almost impossible. BIG PROBLEM... As an interested onlooker I want OpenMoko to not only survive but thrive, I am concerned that this project may not be able to reach critical mass. If what Turkay says about the OpenMoko development platform is approximately correct, this project may be doomed. How can we be this far down the road without enough documentation that a larger group of developers can successfully write C/C++ apps for OpenMoko? On the other hand, one might also say how can a mobile phone project be this far along yet have issues with fundamental requirements such as making and receiving calls? One possible conclusion: developing a full-featured open source mobile phone exceeds the scope of what a loosely organized open source community can accomplish. *** I HOPE I AM W-R-O-N-G!!! *** -ron k jeffries [this is an excerpt] -- Forwarded message -- From: Emre Turkay [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:08:04 +0200 Subject: Re: start writing applications - how? There are python packages available on both the repository and in the compilation output directory, you can install them with ipkg. Practically you don't need any moko specific example or documentation (except gsm/gps related issues, in which case you need to look at the code and interact with those services through dbus). Just consult the python/gtk examples and your code will run on any platform including moko. You don't need to do anything for the screen size, gtk is handling them very good. You may, however, want to optimize your design for a 480x640 display, which is done in application specific way ( i.e., placing buttons in an optimized way.) So, there is nothing stopping you ;) Scripting is easy, however support for developing C/C++ applications is a disaster. You have to have the ability to touch your left ear with your right hand's thumb, while standing up-down on the other arm and break the 100m Olympic record on running (or better have a seat at FIC) to be able to write those applications. About the development platform, no central documentation (even no documentation at all), no community support so far. There was an announcement on the list about a development framework as far as I remember, but I heard nothing about it again. -- Ron K. Jeffries ron_jeffries Skype 805-680-8086 Mobile http://blog.eronj.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Battery time
Yeah, PLEASE give us a terminal! I'm a complete noob at all things Linux but I already don't feel right if I don't have a terminal to mess with... Later when the Neo is a consumer ready device it might be a good idea to take the terminal out of the versions for the general public (or at least hide it well). At this point, though, everybody using the Neo with Qtopia should be interested in a terminal or at least not confused by it. ;) Ortwin On Nov 11, 2007 3:12 PM, Peter A Trotter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * No terminal. Ugh. Do you really need a terminal app on a phone? Most phones do not have a term on them. besides, it is opensource, so anyone could get one working. Any takers? I guess most/all here are geeks. I have to admit that the first thing I want to know before buying a new smart phone is can I use a terminal/ssh on it. pocket putty was a blessing. But I hope much better things will come from this project. Maybe I will try to carve out some time in December... I'm guessing anyone into Linux is going to want this though :) -Pete ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: developing C/C++ applications for OpenMoko -- where do we stand?
On Mon, 2007-11-12 at 09:59 -0800, Joshua Layne wrote: [...] If what Turkay says about the OpenMoko development platform is approximately correct, this project may be doomed. How can we be this far down the road without enough documentation that a larger group of developers can successfully write C/C++ apps for OpenMoko? I believe the core of this perceived issue is the cross-dev environment, as most developers are not developing on native armv5te platforms. There are libraries for the openmoko 'widgets' that have been produced (openedhand). Otherwise, I woul dimagine it is very similar to developing in any other gtk+ environment. Confirmed, and you don't even need to use the libmokoui widgets if you don't want to. There are lots of people already writing C/C++ applications for OpenMoko. Chances are, if you can write GUI applications for Linux, then you can easily write them for this phone as well. The only tricky bit is cross compiling. The rest should work exactly as if you were developing for your desktop. Regards, Thomas -- OpenedHand Ltd. Unit R Homesdale Business Center / 216-218 Homesdale Road / Bromley / BR1 2QZ / UK Tel: +44 (0)20 8819 6559 Expert Open Source For Consumer Devices - http://o-hand.com/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons
On Nov 11, 2007 6:33 PM, Peter Naulls [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have concerns about the screen size (even though it's 640x480, it's still tiny) The screen is small but usable. The biggest problem I see is text input but there are some interesting projects and ideas flying around to solve that. and the ruggedness of the device I can't say too much about that but it seems pretty solid to me. I read about other people's buttons breaking and that sounds like a realistic issue if you use them a lot. You should get some sort of protector foil for the screen as the danger of damaging it is always big, especially with touchscreens. My requirements are: 640x480 (for suitably transcoded movies), From my experience with devices, the GTA02 hardware should do that pretty easily. I have not idea how long it will take until the necessary software is written/ported, though. runs Linux It obviously does that. wireless access Do you mean WLAN? The GTA02 will have the hardware and probably the software after a short while. can make occasional phone calls. The GTA01 already makes phone calls. And a general note: Your tone is very agressive and demanding. This does nothing but annoy people. I'd recommend you try to be more friendly and tolerant of seemingly unnecessary comments and people will probably be more friendly to you. Ortwin ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons
careful mike, don't feed the trolls. http://peternaullsappreciationsociety.blogspot.com/ i hope we can all appreciate mr naulls and his brief foray down at the very level of the perceived trollish abuse he experience: inflicting it back on a respected and valued member of our community. hatred + hatred = ???. hopefully this equation doesn't go exponential! but after seeing the picture of his son, i hope he just had a bad day! ickle baby naulls! :D p.s., me, i like the june 12th blog post. sic: A respectful culture - We treat each other with respect xo j On Nov 12, 2007 12:39 AM, Peter Naulls [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike Hodson wrote: On Nov 11, 2007 6:55 PM, Peter Naulls [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And yet some people are dissatisfied with its specifications and are discussing other phones, so I can easily conclude that your (sic) a troll. Yet by your condescending attitude you appear to be more troll-like than him. Well deserved; I'm trying to have an intelligent conversation. Was there any value to your content-free posts? No. Then you'd also do well to say nothing instead of throwing around more accusations. I seem to have confused this list with one where open and intelligent discussion takes place regarding the merits or otherwise of OpenMoko and its hardware targets. Clearly you aren't interested in discussing those. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons
Ortwin Regel wrote: On Nov 11, 2007 6:33 PM, Peter Naulls [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have concerns about the screen size (even though it's 640x480, it's still tiny) The screen is small but usable. The biggest problem I see is text input but there are some interesting projects and ideas flying around to solve that. How about in terms of viewing movies or graphics - is that sensible; the pixels are surely minuscule? and the ruggedness of the device I can't say too much about that but it seems pretty solid to me. I read about other people's buttons breaking and that sounds like a realistic issue if you use them a lot. You should get some sort of protector foil for the screen as the danger of damaging it is always big, especially with touchscreens. My requirements are: 640x480 (for suitably transcoded movies), [snip broken up requirements] Yes, I'm quite aware that the GTA02 meets these requirements, as does the UTC universal. I wouldn't have posted here after all and named those two phones otherwise. The question is, do any _other_ phones also fall into this category? Of course, I do want to run OpenMoko, and will do the necessary work if really required to make it do so if it already runs linux. And a general note: Your tone is very agressive and demanding. This does nothing but annoy people. I'd recommend you try to be more friendly and tolerant of seemingly unnecessary comments and people will probably be more friendly to you. With respect, you seem to be a bit confused and your reasoning is backwards. The initial responses I got were clearly trolls (by definition _they_ unfriendly and annoying people). I made an effort to be clear about what I was asking and haven't demanded anything, and the first responders had made no effort to really read what I said. Save your criticism for them. Unfortunately, it just looks like to outsiders that people are getting overly defensive it if looks like I might be trying to criticize OpenMoko/Neo. Let's try and restrict our opinions to what I'm really asked. Thanks for your feedback. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons
On Nov 13, 2007 1:12 AM, Peter Naulls [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ortwin Regel wrote: On Nov 11, 2007 6:33 PM, Peter Naulls [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have concerns about the screen size (even though it's 640x480, it's still tiny) The screen is small but usable. The biggest problem I see is text input but there are some interesting projects and ideas flying around to solve that. How about in terms of viewing movies or graphics - is that sensible; the pixels are surely minuscule? It's quite hard to see the individual pixels but as far as I'm concerned this is a good thing. Things look very sharp. Of course, some pictures and videos might have to be scaled up to fit the screen. The Neo is not the best virtual picture frame or movie theatre but it should be great for viewing high res videos and photos (high res for a mobile device) on the go. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons
On 13/11/2007, Peter Naulls [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My requirements are: 640x480 (for suitably transcoded movies), [snip broken up requirements] Yes, I'm quite aware that the GTA02 meets these requirements, as does the UTC universal. The question is, do any _other_ phones also fall into this category? Of course, I do want to run OpenMoko, and will do the necessary work if really required to make it do so if it already runs linux. some of us have been talking off list about a module from Compulab that may be suitable. it is an ARM device, has a ready to go Angstrom linux image, 640 x 480 screen, gprs, wi-fi, bluetooth and gps. all it needs is a case. see: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Compulab_EM-X270 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons
Yes, I'm quite aware that the GTA02 meets these requirements, as does the UTC universal. I wouldn't have posted here after all and named those two phones otherwise. The question is, do any _other_ phones also fall into this category? Of course, I do want to run OpenMoko, and will do the necessary work if really required to make it do so if it already runs linux. And a general note: Your tone is very agressive and demanding. This does nothing but annoy people. I'd recommend you try to be more friendly and tolerant of seemingly unnecessary comments and people will probably be more friendly to you. With respect, you seem to be a bit confused and your reasoning is backwards. The initial responses I got were clearly trolls (by definition _they_ unfriendly and annoying people). I made an effort to be clear about what I was asking and haven't demanded anything, and the first responders had made no effort to really read what I said. Save your criticism for them. Unfortunately, it just looks like to outsiders that people are getting overly defensive it if looks like I might be trying to criticize OpenMoko/Neo. Let's try and restrict our opinions to what I'm really asked. No, Peter, honestly, you do sound really mean and super aggressive. I am trying to say this in a way that does not further incite your testosterone, but the fact that several people on this generally respectful list are saying the same thing (and this doesn't come up often) should be an indicator. I have no reason to say this other than that your tone is distinctly different from the rest of the list. And by the way I am plenty critical of openmoko re 850mhz. This has nothing to do with being defensive. I am just calling it like I see it. Regards Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Robin Paulson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 13/11/2007, Peter Naulls [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My requirements are: 640x480 (for suitably transcoded movies), some of us have been talking off list about a module from Compulab that may be suitable. it is an ARM device, has a ready to go Angstrom linux image, 640 x 480 screen, gprs, wi-fi, bluetooth and gps. all it needs is a case. see: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Compulab_EM-X270 Yeah, I've been following what's been mentioned about that. Pretty interesting, but pricey, even if a volume purchase can be worked out (~$750). Odd that it's only 11b. I could justify cobbling together a case of my own making, but I think the price of the device is simply too much to justify it. I don't know much about the availability of GPRS devices et al, but would it be possible to retrofit one to an existing device? Alternatively, CDMA modems are avilable in PCMCIA devices - how about a MiniPCI version on a device. This is all guess work. -- Peter Naulls - [EMAIL PROTECTED]| http://www.chocky.org/ Linux hints wiki - http://www.linuxhints.info/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
developing C/C++ applications for OpenMoko and Android
Also spracht Ted Lemon (Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:57:05 -0700): On Mon, 2007-11-12 at 14:39 -0600, William Voorhees wrote: I hope they do it soon, I just downloaded the Android (google) SDK, and I must say I'm rather impressed. The demos are great. But it looks like it's heavily java-focused, which is a bummer The really big problem I have with that is -- Google seems to have spent quite a bit of effort binding all the cool things like sqlite. How can they have still missed the point? By tying the whole thing to Java and closing native development, OHA are effectively shutting off all the body of existing C/C++ F/OS code out there. Can I use Telepathy? Well, if they have a Java implementation of D-Bus, then I can write my own implementation, it seems. Can I use my favourite scripting language? Only if there is a JVM-based implementation, it seems. Can I use VOS? Can I write a Crossfire client? Only if you rewrite it from scratch in Java... Sorry Google, that's not good enough. I'll stick to my Moko. Maybe I can even run it in one of the OHA handsets, who knows. Now, Android wins on ease of development. (And, in theory, deployment; which is kind of moot since there's nothing to deploy on, but in principle, it *would* be easy.) And I think I have the answer on my computer. I have the OpenMoko libs and daemons all compiled and installed; I can run my hello world with a relatively simple Makefile. (There's even PackageConfig files!) So what's keeping OM from just making source releases of all that stuff, so that we can package them for our fave distros and make OM development a breeze? best, Lalo Martins -- So many of our dreams at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we summon the will, they soon become inevitable. - http://lalomartins.info/ GNU: never give up freedom http://www.gnu.org/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
