Re: proprietary firmware
On Feb 9, 2008 4:11 PM, Jeremiah Flerchinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On another note, access to low level GPS functions could be fairly > interesting. Imagine gathering data from a local weather station and > using it to better calculate atmospheric effects and improve accuracy. I used to hack gps receivers for a company that worked on ionospheric/atmospheric modeling. You can usually get the raw data you want (e.g. ephemeris frames) through a published binary protocol. I'd look it up right now, but the manufacturer's website only has it in windows help file format. Ew. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: solar power
Am So 10. Februar 2008 schrieb Wolfgang Spraul: > Andy (or anyone else), > if the whole back of the Neo would be a solar panel, and you would put > it back side up into direct sunlight, say for 5 hours, how much could > that charge the battery? > Could you operate the phone without a battery (and without USB) power > if you were standing in sunlight? > Just curious, thanks for any answers, > Wolfgang arbitrary chosen polycrystal solar cell 100mm x 100mm: 0.47V, max current (short circuit) 2,6A (www.conrad.de, #112135-99) This is < 1W / 10*10cm, probably << for efficiency (you won't get 2,6A at 0,5V) matches the supposed 1000W/squaremeter of ingress solar power which is a rule of thumb of meteorologists. Another module: 70 x 30mm, 3.6V, 27mA nominal current (conrad.de, 110330-99) cheers j ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: when we can buy GTA02 developer kit?
On 9 Feb 2008, at 22:36, Leo wrote: ... I understand that openmoko is developing GTA02 stage of hardware. just wondering when developer kit will be available again for us. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_When_can_I_buy_a_Neo_FreeRunner.3F Stroller. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: solar power addition(Did not answer the questions)
A 0.8x1.6" cell delivers 0.3 amps @0.55 VDC if you do the math, ~10 would be needed for the right voltage. Obviously some control is needed. IF this was made the remaining voltage could be used to power the device while not consuming much power from the battery. This could add a significant amount of life to the battery, IF this was manufactured I would buy one. It could be user installable by shimming the battery(SpeedEvil's idea) * Efficient, 0.8x1.6" (2.4cm) cell * Delivers about 0.3-amps at 0.55VDC in full sunlight >>> Wolfgang Spraul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 02/09/08 10:01 PM >>> Andy (or anyone else), if the whole back of the Neo would be a solar panel, and you would put it back side up into direct sunlight, say for 5 hours, how much could that charge the battery? Could you operate the phone without a battery (and without USB) power if you were standing in sunlight? Just curious, thanks for any answers, Wolfgang ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: solar power
On Feb 9, 2008 7:01 PM, Wolfgang Spraul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Andy (or anyone else), > if the whole back of the Neo would be a solar panel, and you would put > it back side up into direct sunlight, say for 5 hours, how much could > that charge the battery? > Could you operate the phone without a battery (and without USB) power > if you were standing in sunlight? > Just curious, thanks for any answers, > Wolfgang > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > Howdy, While I think it would be awesome - I don't think there are any solar panels efficient enough to charge near USB specs, that are that small. If you take a look at: http://yosemiteoutside.com/m/Blogs/02EA4A6B-8893-4F3E-87A8-C1E4B24C3AAB.html, he uses something called "PowerFilm" ( http://store.sundancesolar.com/po6v10flsopa.html ) for an iPod charger. Regardless of that, the solar panel is 6v @ 100mAh (which could be "adjusted" to meet get similar to USB specs). The problem is that the film is 4.5" X 5.9" for that "little" power. I really don't think the back of the Neo is enough room for a useful sized solar panel. Of course, that being said - a small solar panel could be used to trickle charge the battery. It won't give you 100% charge in the 5 hours you want - but at least it'll keep you running a little longer. -Jon PS. I'm no expert on solar panels, there may be better/more efficient panels to use. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: odd UI for 12/01 snapshot
On Sun, 2008-02-10 at 02:34 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Just installed 20071201 snapshot and the nice black UI seems to have turned > to > odd window-like environment. Is this an option I should set ? Hi Wim, I have seen this in the past too and 'I think' it's an Angstrom default windowing environment and the black UI in the themed OM environment. Correct me if I'm wrong. -Tim > > W > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: solar power
Solar panels are a great idea, but you must have room for a power flow control chip, dont want to explode the battery, Removing the battery is not a viable option, Changing the battery with a capacitor *might* work, but i would not rely on it, Im down for a solar panel covered back. Im not too conceder about power consumption right now as I cant actually use my Neo at home. >>> Wolfgang Spraul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 02/09/08 10:01 PM >>> Andy (or anyone else), if the whole back of the Neo would be a solar panel, and you would put it back side up into direct sunlight, say for 5 hours, how much could that charge the battery? Could you operate the phone without a battery (and without USB) power if you were standing in sunlight? Just curious, thanks for any answers, Wolfgang ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
solar power
Andy (or anyone else), if the whole back of the Neo would be a solar panel, and you would put it back side up into direct sunlight, say for 5 hours, how much could that charge the battery? Could you operate the phone without a battery (and without USB) power if you were standing in sunlight? Just curious, thanks for any answers, Wolfgang ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
odd UI for 12/01 snapshot
Just installed 20071201 snapshot and the nice black UI seems to have turned to odd window-like environment. Is this an option I should set ? W ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
when we can buy GTA02 developer kit?
Hello all, I am new to openmoko and I am trying to buy some developer kits form openmoko website: https://direct.openmoko.com/ but it seems that currently no products are available. I understand that openmoko is developing GTA02 stage of hardware. just wondering when developer kit will be available again for us. Many thanks Y.W ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: proprietary firmware
I see the concern of using up all the CPU time and wasting power. It would be great if we could have binary patches as downloads with software & an architecture that could update all the firmware. It would be even better if we had enough information about the chips in concern that we could upload our own software into the flash memory or RAM of different chips to run our own firmware. Software drivers on the main processor could be used in either case to test & apply temporary patches or provide specialty extensions. More information about hardware & an API to access the hardware would be needed either way. My opinion is a (binary/encrypted) software mechanism should be provided to update firmware with binary/encrypted data from the vendor, but try to get APIs with the firmware to get access to lower level functionality and provide the option of doing as much or as little on chip as desired. Individuals could flesh out modules in software & they could eventually create fully open & functional drivers & firmware. Users could be given a default configuration and allowed to choose an alternate configuration or additional software modules/patches. Maybe, in the future, hardware manufacturers would agree to set aside or disclose some address locations/registers on the hardware that point to certain functions & allow values to be written there that point to custom routines. Maybe they could even allocate some address space in the hardware for custom routines to be loaded in addition to a method of interacting with the CPU & main memory (possibly with these chips executing code on main RAM as instructed by CPU). On another note, access to low level GPS functions could be fairly interesting. Imagine gathering data from a local weather station and using it to better calculate atmospheric effects and improve accuracy. 'a little cpu-speed' is an assumption. The more the more software's running on the CPU, the more CPU speed they'll take. 400MHz is really, *really* easy to use up. Considering how much stuff the other ICs do by themselves, we can heavily load the CPU pretty easily. Also, we can lose phone reliability, as the scheduling of periodic tasks could be delayed by other things (do we even have a hard real-time scheduler here?). IMHO it's a giant waste of CPU & battery power -- the other chips will still be running, but now we're using the CPU more. For what? I don't think the GSM chip does anything terribly interesting. Wifi's not much better, and the GPS is probably the simplest. I'm sure others want to find that out themselves through their own hacking. But I don't want to fill up my CPU with garbage the other dedicated chips should be doing. If openmoko decides to go through with this firmware opening, please give us a way to use the regular firmware, too. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 65, Issue 28
HI! Ab Mitternacht ist der Bericht freigeschalten. MfG Martin On Feb 9, 2008 12:00 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Send community mailing list submissions to > community@lists.openmoko.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of community digest..." > > Today's Topics: > >1. Re: Mono audio output on GTA02? (joerg) >2. Re: Mono audio output on GTA02? (Ben Burdette) >3. Re: proprietary firmware (joerg) >4. Re: Patents and OpenMoko (Sean Moss-Pultz) >5. Kill The Clock (Christopher Earl) >6. Re: Input Method Development (dda) > > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: joerg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: List for OpenMoko community discussion > Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 01:33:18 +0100 > Subject: Re: Mono audio output on GTA02? > Am Sa 9. Februar 2008 schrieb Clarke Wixon: > > joerg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > > The amp is for the speaker(s) only, and GTA02 has only one of > > > them (mono). That's fine, for one good speaker will yield a better sound > than > > > 2 small ones. > > > > Unfortunately, I don't think we're getting "one good speaker" in the > bargain. > > The second speaker was removed to make room for WiFi, so the remaining > speaker > > is likely to be of comparable (identical?) quality to half of the original > pair. > > :-( Anyway, 2 speakers don't make a stereo output yet, when built in such a > small case. So it's not so bad to lose one of them. > > > > > But you're right, the headphones should still be fine. > > However without circuit diagrams, we can't say for sure what they 've done and > why. Seems i was wrong with direct connection of HPh to codec chip. > > see spec of wolfson mixer codec chip: > On-chip Headphone Driver with cap-less output option > - 40mW output power on 16Ω / 3.3V > - with 16Ω load: SNR 90dB, THD –75dB > - with 10kΩ load: SNR 94dB, THD –90dB > On-chip speaker driver with 0.5W into 8R > > I don't know why they use a dedicated amp LM4853, which is good for nothing it > seems: > near same power, mono *OR* stereo output, no capacitor-free bridge out for > stereo. Additional parts needed for headphone detection to system. > > Sigh... > j > > > > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: Ben Burdette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: List for OpenMoko community discussion > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 18:57:37 -0700 > Subject: Re: Mono audio output on GTA02? > > > Look again at the LM4853 specs and you'll see that it takes stereo in and > > drives stereo headphone out or mono speaker out. > > > > http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM4853.html > > > > > Ah, I should have followed the link. I kind of stopped reading where it > said "Mono Amplifier" in the wiki. > > http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware#Mono_Amplifier > > So its a 'high power' mono amp and low power stereo amp. That makes > sense, I feel better now. > > Ben > > > > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: joerg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: List for OpenMoko community discussion > Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 03:12:11 +0100 > Subject: Re: proprietary firmware > Am Sa 9. Februar 2008 schrieb Steven Kurylo: > > > I don't > > > want to know how 802.11b protocol is handled in the wlan-chip. I want to > > > have a powerfull bugfree API for the subsystem. > > > > In a Free software world, we do want to know. > Ok, agreed. But where ends SW and starts HW. Dedicated custom processor; > bootload-firmware; flashrom-fw; OTP-rom fw; mask programmed rom fw; FPGA; > even hardwired comparators and adders? The src is worth nothing for an alien > cpu command set, the whole fw src is nothing without register documentation. > Where to stop? FW of the DVD-writer with burn-receipes, of the HD with the > algos of the head-amp-DSP therein? This is valuable IP of the > DVD/HD-Manufacturer, they won't disclose. Power management of WiFI exactly > the same. > > > For various reasons, > > one of which is because there is no "powerful bugfree API". > True. For every level API. No matter if that's driver API (to the "firmware") > or HW-API (description of registers and chip functions). > > > They'll > > be bugs and we (as in the Free software community) can fix them; I > > don't want to be at the mercy of some random company. > You *always* are, one way or the other. If the description of a register (e.g > timing) is faulty, you won't fix anything, neither the driver nor the chip > itself, unless you have the chip design data (masks etc). See actual > processor bug, would you like to have microcode documentation, so you can > decide whether or not, and how you may fix it with a microcode patch? You > have to learn how the CPU works
Re: proprietary firmware/Rant
la, 2008-02-09 kello 11:42 -0500, Christopher Earl kirjoitti: > I am concerned with the GTA02, as of right now the wifi Firmware does > not support monitor > mode( http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.openmoko.kernel/865 ). > I am a Security tester and I *Must* have this function. I can see how that would be a bummer in your case. Hope Atheros will get around to it, that part being in the proprietary portion :I Personally I miss AP mode more for sharing Neo's GPRS connection (or even a host computer's connection via USB) to wlan clients. But at least this can probably be worked around with adhoc mode, if a bit less conveniently. -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.iki.fi/mjr/> Transhumanist - WTA member - http://www.transhumanism.org/> Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - http://www.singinst.org/> ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A bit of fun - freerunner and the wisdom of crowds
Tim Kersten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > As there doesn't seem to be any takers, I'll offer to give it a shot.--tim nice one tim! JW ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: proprietary firmware/Rant
I can see the TI being closed with the GSM firmware, because its illegal to release to the public, because people like me who would write a monitor driver for it, no that it would be terribly useful with Digital spread spectrum radio. The thing I am concerned with is when I bought my Neo no one know that the GSM 850 was busted and It looks like it will not be repaired. Also I am concerned with the GTA02, as of right now the wifi Firmware does not support monitor mode( http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.openmoko.kernel/865 ). I am a Security tester and I *Must* have this function. Im sure the demand will facilitate the implementation of this function, but it should have been known that selling 'Hackers' phones for 'Hackers' would have required this function. I dont want to focus on the negative aspects of the soft/firmware because OM has treated us all well with the open technology movement. I am defiantly going to be a customer/developer for life. >>> "Lally Singh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 02/09/08 11:23 AM >>> On Feb 8, 2008 3:51 PM, enaut <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Christopher Earl schrieb: > > I think he had the right intentions about this idea, however it would > require vast CPU resources or a coprocessor dedicated to firware/driver > layer managment. This is unlikley to happen, However trying to unlock the > virtual lips of companies would be a huge step forward. Not to play devils > advocate but if the firmware was loaded into RAM at boot a simple RAM dump > would allow reverse engineering of the data, and thus the device,So im OK > with that. > > > > > Andy Powell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 02/08/08 10:08 AM >>> > > On Friday 08 February 2008 08:46, Lally Singh wrote: > > > On Feb 7, 2008 8:32 PM, Wolfgang Spraul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > He suggested we treat any chipset with proprietary firmware as a black- > box, a circuit. He suggested we ignore the firmware inside. If the > firmware is buggy and the vendor needs the ability to update the > firmware, we instead ask the vendor to reduce the firmware to the bare > minimum, so that it can be very simple and bug free, and move the rest > of the logic into the GPL'ed driver running on the main CPU. This way > we completely avoid the issue of distributing proprietary firmware > updates and binary firmware updaters with restrictive licensing that > load only cryptographically signed firmware. > > While I see the benefits here, it seems that we're sacrificing CPU > time, power usage, and lowered utilization of other devices on the > phone to get over a license issue -- a technical resolution to a legal > problem. > > > I have to agree here. This is a low powered (CPU) device that contains > chips > designed to perform specific tasks. Why on earth would anyone think that > making the cpu handle those tasks be a good idea? > > Apple can manage to allow their users to update the baseband on the iPhone > so > why can't FIC on the neo? > > Seriously, I want a phone that works properly more than I want one that dies > during a call because the cpu is maxed out doing stuff that the chips in the > same device should be doing.. > > Rome wasn't built in a day and you're not going to change manufacturers > overnight either. In the meantime we have to be flexible. Mr Stallman > appears > to live in a land where every device has infinite resources - some would say > it's called 'LaLa' > > > Andy > > I like the idea of having total control over my electronic devices - > especially if they are able to collect everything about my life like a > mobile phone. Thats why I'm currently living without any mobil. > If I am able to look into what runs on my device, I can trust that stuff. > so I'm one of those guys saying doing everything open source is way better > than gaining a little cpu-speed. and by the way I don't think that the > cpu-speed is too limited on that device. usually cpus don't have to do > anything. and a driver doesnt need too much. This smal gap could be closed > esysly by optimizing things for the hardware. > > regards enaut 'a little cpu-speed' is an assumption. The more open these chips are, the more software's running on the CPU, the more CPU speed they'll take. 400MHz is really, *really* easy to use up. Considering how much stuff the other ICs do by themselves, we can heavily load the CPU pretty easily. Also, we can lose phone reliability, as the scheduling of periodic tasks could be delayed by other things (do we even have a hard real-time scheduler here?). IMHO it's a giant waste of CPU & battery power -- the other chips will still be running, but now we're using the CPU more. For what? I don't think the GSM chip does anything terribly interesting. Wifi's not much better, and the GPS is probably the simplest. I'm sure others want to find that out themselves through their own hacking. But I don't want to fill up my CPU with garbage the other dedicated chips should be doing. If openmoko decides to go t
Re: proprietary firmware
On Feb 8, 2008 3:51 PM, enaut <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Christopher Earl schrieb: > > I think he had the right intentions about this idea, however it would > require vast CPU resources or a coprocessor dedicated to firware/driver > layer managment. This is unlikley to happen, However trying to unlock the > virtual lips of companies would be a huge step forward. Not to play devils > advocate but if the firmware was loaded into RAM at boot a simple RAM dump > would allow reverse engineering of the data, and thus the device,So im OK > with that. > > > > > Andy Powell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 02/08/08 10:08 AM >>> > > On Friday 08 February 2008 08:46, Lally Singh wrote: > > > On Feb 7, 2008 8:32 PM, Wolfgang Spraul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > He suggested we treat any chipset with proprietary firmware as a black- > box, a circuit. He suggested we ignore the firmware inside. If the > firmware is buggy and the vendor needs the ability to update the > firmware, we instead ask the vendor to reduce the firmware to the bare > minimum, so that it can be very simple and bug free, and move the rest > of the logic into the GPL'ed driver running on the main CPU. This way > we completely avoid the issue of distributing proprietary firmware > updates and binary firmware updaters with restrictive licensing that > load only cryptographically signed firmware. > > While I see the benefits here, it seems that we're sacrificing CPU > time, power usage, and lowered utilization of other devices on the > phone to get over a license issue -- a technical resolution to a legal > problem. > > > I have to agree here. This is a low powered (CPU) device that contains > chips > designed to perform specific tasks. Why on earth would anyone think that > making the cpu handle those tasks be a good idea? > > Apple can manage to allow their users to update the baseband on the iPhone > so > why can't FIC on the neo? > > Seriously, I want a phone that works properly more than I want one that dies > during a call because the cpu is maxed out doing stuff that the chips in the > same device should be doing.. > > Rome wasn't built in a day and you're not going to change manufacturers > overnight either. In the meantime we have to be flexible. Mr Stallman > appears > to live in a land where every device has infinite resources - some would say > it's called 'LaLa' > > > Andy > > I like the idea of having total control over my electronic devices - > especially if they are able to collect everything about my life like a > mobile phone. Thats why I'm currently living without any mobil. > If I am able to look into what runs on my device, I can trust that stuff. > so I'm one of those guys saying doing everything open source is way better > than gaining a little cpu-speed. and by the way I don't think that the > cpu-speed is too limited on that device. usually cpus don't have to do > anything. and a driver doesnt need too much. This smal gap could be closed > esysly by optimizing things for the hardware. > > regards enaut 'a little cpu-speed' is an assumption. The more open these chips are, the more software's running on the CPU, the more CPU speed they'll take. 400MHz is really, *really* easy to use up. Considering how much stuff the other ICs do by themselves, we can heavily load the CPU pretty easily. Also, we can lose phone reliability, as the scheduling of periodic tasks could be delayed by other things (do we even have a hard real-time scheduler here?). IMHO it's a giant waste of CPU & battery power -- the other chips will still be running, but now we're using the CPU more. For what? I don't think the GSM chip does anything terribly interesting. Wifi's not much better, and the GPS is probably the simplest. I'm sure others want to find that out themselves through their own hacking. But I don't want to fill up my CPU with garbage the other dedicated chips should be doing. If openmoko decides to go through with this firmware opening, please give us a way to use the regular firmware, too. I have plans for that CPU. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A bit of fun - freerunner and the wisdom of crowds
As there doesn't seem to be any takers, I'll offer to give it a shot. --tim On Fri, Feb 8, 2008 at 6:34 PM, JW <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Peter Trapp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > [snip] > > > > > Beside of some suggestions you made, a similar webpage already exist: > > > > http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Buying_Interest_List > > > > Have fun improving it :) > > > > cheers > > - homyx > > > > hi peter > yes i was already aware of this page - i am already in the list! > but hard to put a script in a wiki page? > beyond me anyway! > > anyone else offers to do this (see first post)? > > JW > > > > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
