Re: Switch from GTK to QT (was: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions)
Subject: Re: Switch from GTK to QT (was: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions) Date: mer 21 mag 08 09:22:38 -0400 Quoting Nkoli ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 1:32 PM, Carlo E. Prelz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My complaint is that it would be difficult for me to put my hands into the default apps. They are C++, QT, and expectedly using enough of those creepy C++-isms (possibly, even those yecchy templates or whereabouts). I would be comfortable with tinkering with CGTK main apps. On the other hand, I would find C++QT main apps closed boxes (I perfectly know that I could very well write C/Ruby new code on the OM). From this statement, one would think that you don't use _any_ applications written in C++ or Qt for the simple reason that you can't tinker with the code. I am sure this is not the case. You use the applications written in C++/Qt and play with those written in the languages you're comfortable with or you write your own from scratch. I do not use any Qt app (Qt not installed on any of my PC's). My XFCE setup is satisfactory as it is. I do use C++-written apps (starting with dear old Groff). No need to modify them, though. But you do not see the point. The cutting point of OM is that I can (rather, could) finely adapt the core phone applications to my many quirks. If I cannot do this, well, no reason to substitute my old palm, which goes on giving me the phone/pim services I need (all this, with a QWERTY keyboard and long battery time). Refusing to get the phone because you dislike the languages the shipped apps are written in, not because it prevents anyone from coding in the languages they prefer or that any of the applications are proprietary is beyond ridiculous. You appear to have a very low ridiculousness threshold. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions
Subject: Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions Date: lun 19 mag 08 11:10:50 -0600 Quoting Travis Tabbal ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Carlo E. Prelz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Those apps are the heart of the phone, and I would not want to have C++/QT versions running on my phone. I really don't understand the sentiment there. If the app works well and gets the job done, why does it matter what language it's written in or what widget toolkit it uses? I could see not wanting a closed app on OM, but it sounds like there is source available. There are two levels here. One is the ethically-justified desire to run open software. The other one is the concrete possibility to dig into the code and actually adapt the operativity of the code to your specific needs. The first level is clearly satisfied. With regards to the second one, things differ from person to person. For most of its life, the openmoko project has been based on C and GTK, which I happen to be reasonably versed in. The switch to QT *requires* the abandoning of C in favour of C++, a language that I personally find unsuitable for use. Or, you could pick up the older GTK apps and finish them up. It sounds like the shipping apps are a placeholder to get a nice working phone for shipping Freerunner. It's an open platform, so switch them out if you want the other ones. Or improve the new ones. Or write new ones from scratch in Ruby. Whatever. :) This could come to be true, given enough free time. Nevertheless, there is a big difference between having the core applications of a phone maintained and updated by Openmoko and having to depend on my scarce free time or other voluntary work for the same core apps. Later on, if I read that the GTK apps are usable, I may eventually decide to buy the phone. I just wanted to let Openmoko know that it is because of this switch (which I only learned about yesterday) that I won't be an early adopter. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Switch from GTK to QT (was: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions)
Subject: Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions Date: mar 20 mag 08 08:21:06 -0600 Quoting Travis Tabbal ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 12:39 AM, Carlo E. Prelz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The switch to QT *requires* the abandoning of C in favour of C++, a language that I personally find unsuitable for use. QT is C++, but you can write your code in C and just use the various classes to get GUI widgets. Funny way to define the concept. I must disagree: if you use the various classes you write C++. I really don't see why someone that knows C would have a problem with C++. I find some aspects of C++ irritating compared to Java, C#, Python, etc.. But it's far from unsuitable for use. I can write both good and bad code in most any language. And there is nothing saying you have to write your apps in C++. Subjectively (for me), it is unsuitable for use. I write code as a job (have been doing that for longer than I wish to remember). C and Ruby are my current tools. I know from multiple personal attempts that C++ goes severely against my mental engrams. My ability to pay my bills depends on how smoothly and effectively these engrams operate. I cannot allow them to get disrupted. My complaint is that it would be difficult for me to put my hands into the default apps. They are C++, QT, and expectedly using enough of those creepy C++-isms (possibly, even those yecchy templates or whereabouts). I would be comfortable with tinkering with CGTK main apps. On the other hand, I would find C++QT main apps closed boxes (I perfectly know that I could very well write C/Ruby new code on the OM). I just find it an odd thing to be so irritated about. I do not know how you received the idea that I was irritated. I am only a bit disappointed (after waiting for this project to produce its fruit for all these years), and I wanted to let Openmoko know that they have lost at least one (early-adopting) client by operating the switch to QT. Later, if I find that the original OM core code works to satisfaction, I may decide to buy the phone just the same. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions
Subject: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions Date: Mon 19 May 08 10:27:25AM -0400 Quoting Ian Darwin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): ... and the main applications from the GTK-based apps (developed by OpenMoko and OpenedHand) to QTopia (but using X11, of course). Thanks for letting us know. This makes the phone much less hackable for me (c++-based) and thus, if this decision is not reverted, I will most probably not buy the phone, at least for now. I would like to know if the original GTK-based libraries and apps have been left in a decent (useable) state, and if it will be possible to switch to them in a direct and clean way. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions
Subject: Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions Date: Mon 19 May 08 12:16:30PM -0400 Quoting Ian Darwin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): I would like to know if the original GTK-based libraries and apps have been left in a decent (useable) state, and if it will be possible to switch to them in a direct and clean way. OF COURSE THEY ARE :-) Carsten has made it very clear on this same list within the last few days that all the major libraries - GTK+2, QT, efl, - are and will be available. He wrote about libraries, not about the phone/pim apps. Have the apps been orphaned? Those apps are the heart of the phone, and I would not want to have C++/QT versions running on my phone. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: photographs of box and POSSIBLE contents of Neo Freerunner
Subject: Re: photographs of box and POSSIBLE contents of Neo Freerunner Date: lun 21 apr 08 01:28:18 -0700 Quoting Michael Shiloh ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Anyone wishing to send me a better camera is welcome to do so :-) In exchange for the neo? 8-) Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework - reply
Subject: Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework - reply Date: dom 20 apr 08 05:15:29 +0800 Quoting Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu) ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): This confusion comes from time latency of series of events, but no matter A5 or A6 should all apply the LED transistor change. THANKS! Very refreshing reading. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Unofficial poll: Do you want 3G in the proposed successor, GTA03?
Subject: Re: Unofficial poll: Do you want 3G in the proposed successor, GTA03? Date: ven 18 apr 08 08:25:57 +0200 Quoting Flemming Richter Mikkelsen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Two things: 1) It is not just to print the circuit board even if you had the shematics. When you have transmission lines, you also need to tweak by moving the components, measure, move some more, measure again...and there are many other things too. 2) Nobody wants to reroute just to add a keypad. You can just connect it on usb or some other available bus. I believe what I am asking may be within the plans I had read about from FIC (producing a range of different products centered on the same technological core). Doing the rerouting and the tweaking is not elementary, I agree, but FIC is in a position to produce a keyboard-equipped (*NOT* numeric keypad!) GTA02.2 in a MUCH shorter time and with a MUCH smaller effort than anybody else, due to both the accessibility of the circuit files, and the large experience they are putting together in these months (years?). While I am on the subject, I would suggest: GTA02.2: Nokia E91i form-factor GTA02.3: Nokia Communicator form-factor (double screen, double keyboard, clam-shell with a much more useable QWERTY keyboard). GTA02.999 (pure fantasy-land): Asus EEE form-factor. An ultra-portable laptop with a GSM modem included and a small, extractable headset that can be easily hand-picked when having to make a call. I am thinking of a solid cradle for a bluetooth earphone, that is automatically charged while on-hook. You have your EEE-sized gizmo in your duffel bag, or you are typing on it, and the phone rings (loudspeaker). You pick up the earphone and answer the call. You can close the call by re-hooking the earphone (or maybe by clicking on a screen icon). Or you keep the earphone on your ear and you hear the ringing sound. You can thus even keep the EEE in your rucksack. (if FIC is listening: you may want to call your colleagues at ASUS: by joining forces you could now bring to market GTA02.999 in no time!) Software-wise: once the Openmoko interface is solid enough, so that you can offer a workable interface to phone, sms and PIM-related functions (contacts, agenda, to do), it is just a question to merge the Openmoko layer into, for example, the Xandros distribution that Asus uses for the EEE. The new EEE 900 has a 20Gb (!) solid-state memory device. There is space for all you need on your transportable PC plus phone. Slowly descending back to earth... Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Unofficial poll: Do you want 3G in the proposed successor, GTA03?
Subject: RE: Unofficial poll: Do you want 3G in the proposed successor, GTA03? Date: gio 17 apr 08 04:20:35 -0700 Quoting steve ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): I warmly suggest that FIC produce a GTA02.2 - same hardware, but with a QWERTY keyboard... Form-factor similar to nokia e61. This should not require such a long and difficult development process. Our CAD files are open. I thought you only opened the files for the case, not the ones for the PCBoard (electronic circuit). Are these last ones now also open? Anyone who wants to persue this as a business is welcome to. In order to adapt to another form factor, the circuit board would most certainly have to be resized and rerouted. (not that I am in that specific line of business) Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Buy the Neo fra Norway
Subject: Re: Buy the Neo fra Norway Date: Wed 16 Apr 08 04:21:40PM +0200 Quoting Edwin Lock ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Yes, people in Europa can buy from TRIsoft (maybe also 10-pack, it's best to mail TRIsoft about this). But there were voices that FIC was about to set up a european distribution center. They should be able to sell us a phone for the equivalent of US$399 plus any tax and shipping (hopefully, clearly itemized). Today, US$399 = 252.22€ (www.oanda.com) I vaguely remember reading that it was found out that setting up a EU hub was found to be not that practical (although I did not read details). If a EU hub does not exist by the time the phone is available for sale, I plan to buy directly from Taiwan. I hope I will be allowed to do that. They should charge my credit card at the day's rate, and I would then probably have to pay import duties and VAT. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Unofficial poll: Do you want 3G in the proposed successor, GTA 03?
Subject: Re: Unofficial poll: Do you want 3G in the proposed successor, GTA 03? Date: Tue 15 Apr 08 05:09:32PM +0200 Quoting Ortwin Regel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Well, it would mean that the casing changes significantly. That means lots of work and cost so it's not a trivial change. I don't think it's worth doing this (or even reasonably possible in time) before the next hardware revision. From what I understand, changing important elements of the hardware is what absorbs the largest amount of time and energy. I believe that adding 3G cannot take place without changing at least the cell radio, and possibly a lot more. Adapting to other cases is certainly not trivial, but the possibility to keep most of the electronic circuit equal would allow FIC to avoid redesign, much of testing, and most certification hassles. You feed the same circuit into the electronics CAD program, with a different shape for the PC board. As I am saying, not trivial, but I believe easier than changing an important element as the cell radio QWERTY keyboards and appropriate cases are, I believe, produced already, and can be subcontracted. There is no surprise in a QWERTY keyboard. There was also FIC's plan to produce *a number* of devices, based on the hardware that is currently being finalized. I hope that one of them will be a device with a real keyboard, and I think it appropriate for me to show that there is support for such a device. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: freerunnter - get it over trisoft
Subject: Re: freerunnter - get it over trisoft Date: ven 21 mar 08 05:04:55 + Quoting Stroller ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): But I do agree with you. VAT doesn't help me, either. I don't use any of those silly services (like hospitals and roads) that taxes go to support! I should be exempt from paying for them!! And as for recycling! Why should I care about electronics in landfills leaking lead mercury into the water supply? I won't be around next century to worry about it!! :-) I had previously stated as a dire need the fact of having an identical *PRE-TAX* price for the freerunner on the two shores of the big pond. A basic option (with just one year of warranty, e-mail or IRC-based support, just the standard package content that comes from FIC) should be available and clearly advertised. With a precisely itemized price, and no intermediaries if at all possible. Resellers should earn their market share by offering premium services. They should not be the only choice. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner published? Date: mer 19 mar 08 05:51:01 +0100 Quoting Sander van Grieken ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): If I recall correctly, the initial Freerunner pricing was $450 for the device and $600 for the devkit. What I really hope is that the price in US$ corresponds to the one in euros. At today's exchange rates, 450$ = 285.46 euros. I am writing this because the fact of using european distributors generally brings in big surcharges. Please do make sure that your european distributors sell at the right price. After all, equipment is produced in China, and imported both in the US and in EU. If at all possible, I suggest to ship part of the production directly to Europe, not via US. I believe the European Union is a large enough market... Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner published? Date: Wed 19 Mar 08 07:58:50PM +0100 Quoting Peter Trapp ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Well, I've paid 300€ (=300$) for Neo1973 even without any reseller and group purchasing with two other guys to save shipping costs (to Germany)!! So, where is the big problem? You can go to www.oanda.com/convert/classic to have currency conversions for any date. On the date of Sean's famous Get them while they're still hot! message, when ordering for Neo's was opened (9 July 07), 300$ equalled 220.216 euros. Today, the same 300$ equal 190.317 euros. This *should* be evident from the pricing. What we Europeans would need is a FIC subsidiary somewhere here, importing directly from China, with (pre-tax) prices that are equal, after currency conversion, to the prices established for the US market. Sorry for the resellers, but... Delivery of a container full of cellphones from China to either US or EU must cost comparably, and both US and EU must offer some sort of warranty. Resellers should get their profit from buying large quantities at a discounted price, I believe. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Further details of theprocess as we ramp up production of Freerunner
Subject: Further details of theprocess as we ramp up production of Freerunner Date: Wed 19 Mar 08 11:55:44AM -0700 Quoting Michael Shiloh ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): The PVT runs are staggered: for example, we may build 100 phones and test them, then make a minor change and build another 100, tweak again and then perhaps build 200. Repeat until we verify that the product is ready for true mass production. I am just curious: what do you do with these hundreds of phones that come out of test runs? After all due tests are performed on them, could they be offered as a sort of lottery draw to list contributors? (without any warranty, at a reduced price, you name it...) Or do they just throw them in the garbage bin?!? (just hoping 8-) Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: now Koolu makes a phone too ;-)
Subject: Re: now Koolu makes a phone too ;-) Date: gio 07 feb 08 11:30:53 -0800 Quoting Michael Shiloh ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Yes, Koolu is a distributor. mmm. They offer pre-order and quote a price of US$399. Available to developers this March. And the phone becomes a Works Everywhere (TM) Phone. No mention of Openmoko, FIC, Freerunner... Will you eventually favour distributors to direct sale (in terms of early production batches)? Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Nokia to acquire Trolltech to accelerate software strategy
Subject: Re: Nokia to acquire Trolltech to accelerate software strategy Date: lun 28 gen 08 12:59:50 -0600 Quoting Jeffrey Thomas ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): And yet OpenMoko is using GTK shudder Thanks goddess... Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: New to OpenMoko
Subject: Re[2]: New to OpenMoko Date: Thu 17 Jan 08 01:11:13PM +0100 Quoting Michael 'Mickey' Lauer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): No, openmoko uses GTK. Yes, the current incarnation. There are various interest groups working on different and higher level APIs. I'm very confident that we can distill the best framework out of all these initiatives. This is the open source way :) As long as you do not decide to precipitate from C to C++... ;-) Carlo PS any news of a model with a QWERTY keyboard, a-la Nokia E61i? This would be much welcome (at least from me) -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: community@lists.openmoko.org Date: mer 24 ott 07 03:48:18 -0600 Quoting Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): You need to keep in mind that: - It takes maybe a couple of minutes at most to fire off a one-paragraph email. and then it takes untold time and energy to extinguish the fire if the promises made in that two-minute, one-paragraph e-mail eventually prove to have been too optimist. here we are not talking about describing the past or present, but about foreseeing the future. If you are careful, and make appropriate use of past experience, there are good, solid possibilities that your forecast may prove true. Two minutes are way too short for this sort of exercises. - If somebody, anybody, had taken 30 seconds to post a message to the list we wouldn't be having this flood of posts on this topic right now. No. The flood is caused by lack of patience. An unripe message that were to make wild promises may only work as a painkiller. Painkillers remove the symptom, but they do not cure the problem. - Nobody is asking for an official, press-release-ready corporate announcement. All we're asking for is something like this: Sorry, folks, but due to circumstances beyond our control we are not going to be able to make the release at the previously announced time. We are working on the issues and hope to be ready for sale in December. During the life of this project I have seen several announcements of this kind. Coming at the right time. I prefer not to see messages and to know the energy of the team is focused towards having a working hardware as soon as possible, rather than to have my impatience quelled by official postponements that have no base in real events. I rest comforted by the facts that a) it is their jobs, not mine, that are in relation with a speedy delivery of both openmoko and the neo, and b) if, come the worst, no functional phone were to eventually surface from this project, well, my old treo still works OK... The best we can do to help is to provide support and encouragement to the hard-working team. And to exercise the subtle art of patience. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Qtopia coming for Neo1973
Subject: Re: Qtopia coming for Neo1973 Date: mar 25 set 07 08:18:31 +0200 Quoting Dani Anon ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): - But QT is not free (as in beer) for commercial usage This is not the only reason why Qtopia is sub-optimal. QT is bound to C++. With GTK you can choose to program in C, or, if you really want to, in C++. With QT there is no way you can write your code in C. Also, Qtopia, by having no X server running in the background, makes it much more difficult for the average developer to bring his/her own window to the screen of the phone. With X, there are dozens of ways to paste an interactive window to the screen. They may be esthetically discordant with the main theme of the phone, but your code can communicate to the phone user and the phone hardware. I do not know how easy it is for one's application to talk to the windowing system underlying qtopia, but I have reasons to believe that a) I should have to learn to code in a totally different environment, and b) that environment would require coding in C++. Both things are not desirable for me. I see OpenMoko as a developer-oriented phone/system. Even if current performance may be not that awe-generating, processor speeds are going to increase, and optimizations will certainly be made. What I see as the most important thing in this project is that I would have a telephone that is equivalent, under as many points of view as possible, to my main computer and laptop. For this, X is indispensable, and the fact that the telephone and PIM applications are coded in the same language of the underlying operating system is an added value to the level of hackability of the OM platform. (I also do like much more the graphical look of the OM proposed interface, but this is purely a matter of tastes) Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Qtopia coming for Neo1973
Subject: Re: Qtopia coming for Neo1973 Date: mar 25 set 07 01:23:37 -0700 Quoting Ted Lemon ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): This is an utterly pathetic excuse not to try something. It would have been, had I never attempted to get familiar with that language. But I have, a handful of times. And I concluded, many years ago, that it is not a language for me. I rest my case: if you want you can use c++ with GTK. But you cannot use c with QT. As far as I can perceive, making a c wrapper of a c++ library (and I do not mean c-looking code that compiles under c++ - I mean a library that makes heavy use of those ungodly quirks that c++ is burdened with) is a task that no sane individual might desire to embark into... But if/when such a wrapper becomes available, I will make sure to carve out half a day to gain some experience with it. So it's kind of mind-boggling that you were able to come up with so much prose to document your complete lack of knowledge on the topic. You are welcome to maintain your boggliness if it pleases you. I have not stated an absolute judgment of value from the programmer's point of view, of which I am not capable, since I have never programmed in QT (and I have never programmed in QT because it requires c++ - otherwise I would have given it a try by now, free or not free). I still prefer the look of Gnome to that of KDE, but this is purely an aesthetical judgment. I expect that with some effort I would be able to use Gnome themes on KDE. Also, Qtopia, by having no X server running in the background, makes it much more difficult for the average developer to bring his/her own window to the screen of the phone. Case in point. This simply isn't true. You're saying things that you don't know to be true. Why would you do that? Hrmpf. How many X applications can you find in sourceforge? This translates to how many programmers who already can make use of one of the many tools that are available to generate an X-compatible executable? And on the other hand, how many people are there who can easily translate their ideas into a user interface that runs under Qtopia's windowing system? I do mean this when I say that X is easier than Qtopia. I have never programmed in Qtopia's environment, so I cannot state how easy or complex it may be. I see OpenMoko as a developer-oriented phone/system. I haven't even been able to get a build working. It only builds on one platform - the build is so brittle that if you don't have that platform, you can't get it to go. It's early days, so I don't count that against the development team, but this is another stunningly ignorant statement. Have you actually tried to develop an app for Openmoko yet? No, since I do not have an openmoko. I might have bought one had they not canceled the plan for a rebate for the second model. But I have had a look at the code. And I understand that the X running on OM will be basically the same X that currently runs on this laptop of mine from which I am writing this message (minus opengl, possibly. It will in any way be sensibly faster than the first X I worked with, back in '93, on that old Tseng Labs video card...). Once I correctly set up the cross-compiling chain of tools, I do believe that the very well-known window manager that is used by OM will not refuse to manage the windows of my humble executables, too. Carlo PS In your mail, you wrote 1) that I use pathetic excuses, 2) that I have complete lack of knowledge on topics that I write my prose about, 3) that I say things that I don't know to be true, 4) that I make multiple stunningly ignorant statements. Can you please keep these personal observations out of the conversation? Just for the sake of peace and harmony... -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: At the risk of being flamed : State of software
Subject: Re: At the risk of being flamed : State of software Date: ven 24 ago 07 06:43:22 +0200 Quoting wim delvaux ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): have you ever tried using WxWidgets or Qt ? WxWidgets never crossed my path. Qt is out of the question since I don't do C++. I tried a handful of times to get familiar with it, and was fiercely rejected every time. But this all is quite personal stuff, that is probably of limited interest to list readers... Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: At the risk of being flamed : State of software
Subject: Re: At the risk of being flamed : State of software Date: ven 24 ago 07 05:53:43 +0200 Quoting wim delvaux ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): GTK ? GTK is a graphics library on top of which you desperately need a higher level of abstraction (e.g. WxWidgets). I used GTK, either directly from C or from its Ruby interface, so many times now, without feeling any specific need for a further level of abstraction. The Ruby interface defines objects for the various GTK classes, but then it has almost a 1-to-1 correspondence between function calls and methods. Flexibility is not negative: it offers more opportunities. Comparing with QTopia, if you look at all what has been acchieved with KDE : K3B, Amarok etc etc all great apps using a 'non free' but freely available high quality library... I believe you are welcome, even encouraged, to do your own port of Qtopia for the OpenMoko phone, and distribute it. If you do it, and you do a good job, many people who buy their phone could follow appropriate instructions and be able to enjoy a Qtopia interface from day one. Maybe someone might even provide the phones with Qtopia pre-installed (I do not know about licensing though). But OpenMoko developers should have the right to choose the development tools they prefer. It is they who have a lot at stake in this project. The worse that can happen to you or me is that we won't be able to play with a new gizmo. Sean, Mickey, and the rest of the paid OpenMoko team are defining their future, while they put ideas to test. Let them work the way they prefer. Carlo PS I see that the Greenphone is on sale at $695. Any direct experience? Is it possible to have OpenMoko running on the Greenphone? -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Open Hardware
Subject: Re: Open Hardware Date: gio 16 ago 07 08:45:37 +1200 Quoting Robin Paulson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): i don't have one myself, but the system76 range are designed from the ground up to be open, and are supplied with ubuntu installed. they have all sorts of options, and the laptops start at $1000 i have heard plenty of people speak highly of them I had a look. Their top product - Serval Performance - is a Compal HEL80. Compal produces barebone laptops, and buying barebone laptops is apparently the only legal way to obtain an OS-free laptop here in the Netherlands. I had bought such a laptop at a small integrator here. Very nice screen, but the PC was structurally fragile. Thanks to some coffee being involuntarily spilled into it, the Compal hit an untimely death. Actually, it may have been repaired, but I decided to find the way to remove the keyboard myself (there was a sneaky trick I had not learned) and in the process I literally destroyed the machine. Since it had been bought a little earlier than a month before, the same integrator offered, for a little fee, a smaller machine. I could use the same processor (core duo, T7200), same memory (2GIG), same disk, same DVD unit, same WiFi card. All these pieces are more or less standard nowadays. The machine came from a different taiwanese producer. It is a Uniwill X20II. If I had chosen it first, I could have saved a lot of money, but that's no reason for despair... ;-) Clearly the machine is totally different. It has a 12 screen, and it is thus MUCH smaller. It occupies almost half of the desk space. Fitting 1280x800 on 12 results in a crisp screen. I would never buy a 15 screen with the same resolution. With this processor and memory, the smaller battery lasts a little over two hours. But where I need to use the laptop I mostly have access to AC sockets. The machine is VERY portable. I can witness about its solidity: I have just returned from a 2-month motorbike/tent tour around Europe, including a 3-week work period in a Croatian island. This laptop has been working perfectly (I had to unclog the CPU fan a couple of times...) This mail is written on it. (Warning: it may well be that the next barebone from Compal is a jewel and the next one from Uniwill is a lemon. This is a question of personal luck, I believe). Practically everything here is supported in Linux. From the last kernel version I compiled (2.6.23rc2) both disk and memory suspend do work, at last! The graphic is Intel. Most probably not the fastest for gaming, but I get bored with games. The OpenGL stuff I write for work works sufficiently well for testing. And the XWindow driver is open (with Nvidia and ATI you have to dabble with proprietary drivers). Buying the machine from an integrator means that you get an empty hard disk. Which for me saved the nasty chore of emptying it (with the latest 'normal' laptop I bought, an ASUS, I had cleaned the disk from the Redmond virus while on the train back from the shop. I still have the DVD's here, sealed...) Compal and Uniwill are not that different from FIC, by the way. FIC also produces laptops. When my ASUS was stolen I tried to contact FIC, both in Europe and in Taiwan, to find out whether I could purchase one of their laptops. Sadly, I received no answer. All in all, I cannot see much the logic of buying a laptop with Ubuntu preinstalled. Just download a Ubuntu cd, put it into the cd unit of your barebone with an empty hard disk, and follow the instructions. I use Debian, but I understand that now installing Ubuntu is quite easy. Small integrators, like the one I found here in NL, exist all around. Search and you will find. A little bit off-topic, I know. But I hope I may be of help. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Ruby for OpenMoko - got it small
Subject: Ruby for OpenMoko - got it small Date: lun 28 mag 07 11:33:01 -0400 Quoting Varga-Háli Dániel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): So what do you think guys? Shall I keep going and trying to get it smaller and faster or shall I abandon this and spend my time on something more useful. I for one am very much interested and grateful for your efforts. Having used Ruby as my main programming language for all development work (thus, not only for scripting) for more than two years now, I consider the existence of a carefully optimized ruby engine for openmoko as a very important piece of the puzzle. If, thanks to your work, the ruby interpreter were to find a little corner in the default OM distribution, that would be a key selling point for me. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Maximum SDHC capacity supported?
Subject: Re: Maximum SDHC capacity supported? Date: Fri 11 May 07 01:10:50PM +0200 Quoting Stefan Schmidt ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Having them in the webshop and being able to deliver seems to be some different things for some shops. Yes... I looked at each shop. No-one has them in stock. One shop promises delivery in 4-6 workdays... Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Maximum SDHC capacity supported?
Subject: Re: Maximum SDHC capacity supported? Date: Fri 11 May 07 12:28:55PM +0200 Quoting Stefan Schmidt ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): MicroSD is up to 4GB right now. As SHDC starts from 4GB there should be no difference. The real problem is to buy such a card. Until now we were not able to find a source for them. A bug for testing is already open: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=93 If anybody knows a source for this cards let us know. We are eager to buy and test. :) A quick search on preisroboter.de with keywords 'microsd' and '4gb' returns a number of merchants in germany, ready to take your money for such a card, apparently. SanDisk is the producer, and the cheapest one is sold at 74.89 euros including adapter for plain SD format and USB reader. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Size and weight considerations for future Openmoko devices
Subject: Re: Size and weight considerations for future Openmoko devices Date: Wed 02 May 07 03:24:43PM +0200 Quoting Andreas Kostyrka ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Yes, it makes the text a tiny bit sharper, and if you bring it to 20cm from the eye, and have good eyes, you can read 80*25 text on it, but... If you could knock off 50g by going to 240*320, I suspect I would. Not really, 50g really are not relevant. I would like to state how little I appreciate this race towards reduced size and weight in telephones. For me, a telephone has to be felt, both in the hand and in the pocket. Too small a phone is unwieldy to use and way too easy to lose. More functions, yes. If the openmoko was two times its weight, but it sported a 20G hard disk, a qwerty keyboard, and very good audio quality via headphones, all this with 10 hours or more of audio playback battery time, it would be my ideal piece of equipment. At FIC they not have the budget of Apple, and they do not have the possibility to market a product at a loss, I presume. The sales point of the Openmoko phone is its extraordinary adaptability to the needs of resourceful people, not its size or weight. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Audio Jack 2.5 mm
Subject: Re: Audio Jack 2.5 mm Date: Tue 24 Apr 07 04:01:41PM +0200 Quoting Tim Niemeyer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): I don't mind about 3.5 or 2.5mm, but we could start a vote. ;-) Or a flame war 8-) Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FOSDEM OpenMoko talk now on video.google.com
Subject: Re: FOSDEM OpenMoko talk now on video.google.com Date: Tue 27 Feb 07 09:07:37AM +0100 Quoting denis ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Have you ever seen Nokia (or any other company) announcing the SAME device (just with 2-5 more features) in 6 months. I have never seen this. I think this pretty sums up the reason why we are more interested in Sean's effort than in Nokia's next release. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
AT commands document (Was: Fax modem? Fax software? Neo as T.38 gateway?)
Subject: Re: Fax modem? Fax software? Neo as T.38 gateway? Date: mar 30 gen 07 12:02:42 +0100 Quoting Andreas Kostyrka ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): My question is: would the GSM chip has a modem for data connections and also fax support? Good question. And if it is, is it a standard class 1 faxmodem like common with GSM mobiles nowaday? Related question: is it possible to have (a pointer to) the document with the AT commands that the closed telephone module responds to? Most probably, the description of the AT+FCLASS command should contain info about fax functionality. Maybe, a repository with datasheets (I think about interfacing the telephone module and the GPS subsystem, but there may be more) could be already made available. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: keyboard, please!
Subject: Re: keyboard, please! Date: Tue 23 Jan 07 11:14:30AM -0600 Quoting Wil Chung ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): I vote for touchscreen interfaces only, and feel that openmoko is going in the right direction w/ the current design. We keyboard fans have been told on this list that in Q3-Q4 there will be pleasant surprises for us... Would FIC wish to lose all karma points in one go? ;-) Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Wish for 2nd generation Neo: USB 2.0
Subject: Re: Wish for 2nd generation Neo: USB 2.0 Date: Thu 18 Jan 07 10:39:18AM +0100 Quoting kenneth marken ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): and make sure the port is a powered one this time round ;) Yes, and do not forget to include a heavy-duty carrying strap for the truck battery that we will have to carry around for all these wonders to work 8-) carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A FIC phone with a real keyboard - Was: OpenMoko ON the iPhone
Subject: Re: A FIC phone with a real keyboard - Was: OpenMoko ON the iPhone Date: sab 13 gen 07 07:40:39 + Quoting Sean Moss-Pultz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): On 1/12/07 3:23 AM, Carlo E. Prelz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My question is: are there plans for FIC to produce a QWERTY keyboard model with native openmoko? (Possibly with wifi in place of gps, and with real mini-sd instead of micro-sd - but these are my personal preferences) No matter if the phone comes to be somewhat larger! Yes but this kind of stuff is Q3 / Q4 for us. Very nice to know. We're focusing on the software issue first. This, IMO, is a far bigger problem. I know our first phone is not 3G, not WiFi, and doesn't have a QWERTY keypad. But please remember, this is unlocked and unsubsidized. Many components in this handset are currently being shipped in our other phones in high-volume in Asia. This is the _only_ way I could sell a device in the sub-$500 range. Which I think is super important for getting critical mass of an open phone. All this is perfectly understandable. I only wanted you (and FIC) to know that there is interest in a treo-like open phone. Many thanks for what you are doing! Carlo PS I have an unrelated question. I see that FIC produces laptops (the contact for clients here in the Netherlands is someone in the UK). I expect you are a user of these laptops. Do you have a good experience? I was very upset when, at the moment of buying my current laptop almost 2 years ago, I was forcefed a copy of XP. It is of little importance that it was away from my HD by the time I returned home by train from the shop. I had to pay, possibly for the first time since MS-DOS, a microsoft tax. Do you know if FIC is bound by the same idiot rules, or I can purchase a portable with a clean hard drive? I might be interested in a GR3 model. -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
A FIC phone with a real keyboard - Was: OpenMoko ON the iPhone
Subject: OpenMoko ON the iPhone Date: Fri 12 Jan 07 10:19:36AM + Quoting Kenshin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): If someone does indeed get Linux running on the iPhone, can we also expect to have the freedom to install anything we want, including OpenMoko? (it's FOSS right?) I have a related question. I am quite happy about the development that is bringing to the production of the neo1973, because I am eager to own a phone for which I can comfortably develop apps. Openmoko is going in the right direction, from my point of view. But I am used to have a phone with QWERTY keyboard together with a touchscreen (currently, a treo 650). There are lots of cute models around which sport a keyboard, from the Motorola Q, to the Nokia E61, to this new Samsung model (SCH-i760) which can be seen on a page on mobile-review.com whose URL was posted yesterday on this list. Or even the Sharp PV-200 (AKA T-Mobile Sidekick 3). I am used to write SMS messages with my thumbs while walking. I hated palm graffiti - way too many errors: writing was painfully slow. And if, as I expect, text input on the neo will be from a virtual keyboard on the touchscreen, with a stylus, walking and typing will simply not be possible. My question is: are there plans for FIC to produce a QWERTY keyboard model with native openmoko? (Possibly with wifi in place of gps, and with real mini-sd instead of micro-sd - but these are my personal preferences) No matter if the phone comes to be somewhat larger! Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
