Re: Further details of theprocess as we ramp up production of Freerunner

[David "Lefty" Schlesinger]

Carlo E. Prelz wrote:


I am just curious: what do you do with these hundreds of phones that
come out of test runs? After all due tests are performed on them,
could they be offered as a sort of lottery draw to list contributors? 
(without any warranty, at a reduced price, you name it...) Or do they

just throw them in the garbage bin?!?


For what it's worth, it used to be--this is back in the 90s--that when 
Apple produced prototypes, EVT units, PVT units, etc., Apple was able to 
take the cost of making them (and a prototype could cost upwards of 
$50,000) as a Federal tax deduction as long as the units were destroyed. 
That's changed now, but there may be other similar issues in other 
geographies.





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Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status

[David "Lefty" Schlesinger]

Matt Manjos wrote:

I'm not too current on electronics manufacturing, but am I correct in
assuming this PVT is more of a ramping-up, factory thing? Or is it
more of an electronics sourcing/tooling sort of thing?
PVT is typically the final test build before actual hardware production 
starts. It's done on the real factory line, and the devices produced are 
(in theory) identical to the ultimate product. If they go to an A6, I'd 
expect another PVT run to prove things out with that before they start 
making the devices in earnest.






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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

[David "Lefty" Schlesinger]

Lally Singh wrote:


Oh sheesh.  Why are you trying so hard to poison this project?
  
Oh, please. If you want to entertain me with rhetoric, put more effort 
into it.


I'm not "poisoning this project", I'm simply adding a note of actual 
reality here. If anything might have that effect, I'd imagine it'd be 
the persistent and unrealistic complaints about a project which has been 
more open and transparent than any hardware project I've ever seen. And, 
having worked at both Apple and Palm for a number of years, and having 
spent the past seven years in the cell phone industry, I've seen plenty 
of 'em.


The fact is that the sort of response with which you're so unhappy is 
not unusual in open source projects at all. You're doing a lot of 
opining about "what open source projects do" without a lot of 
substantiation to back it up. All of this is not much different than the 
demands, many months ago, about "Why can't you _just add WiFi_?" to the 
GTA01, equally misinformed, equally unhelpful.


Here's an idea: you want a wish list, and feel there's a pressing need 
for one, why don't you create it? It's, after all, the "open source" 
thing to do, right?



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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

[David "Lefty" Schlesinger]

Lally Singh wrote:


When someone says "this should get fixed" the *last* response to give
is "fix it yourself."


Clearly the words of someone who's never attempted to complain about the 
lack of a driver for their special hardware on the Linux kernel mailing 
list. "Fix it yourself" is actually a pretty common response in open 
source projects when the "fix" that's being demanded is a relatively low 
priority in the grand scheme of things.


Fact is, there's never a shortage of things needing to be done, and the 
folks who are being paid to work on OpenMoko no doubt have a long, long 
list of things that they need to fix already. So your options amount to 
"fix it yourself", "do without" or "wait". That's the reality of open 
source projects, particularly those at an early stage, as OpenMoko is: 
if you're convinced that what you need is a high priority, then the 
expectation is that you'll "put your money where your mouth is" and 
start contributing.


(Of course, if you'd prefer, you could go to a platform like the iPhone, 
so when you demand that you need to have, say, cut and paste 
capabilities, the response will effectively be, "Tough" or "No, you don't.")


I'd be interested in hearing about the open source projects you're 
familiar with, particularly those where the response is "How high?" when 
the demand is "Jump!"




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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

[David "Lefty" Schlesinger]

Mark Haury wrote:

Matt Manjos matt at manjos.com wrote on Sun Mar 16 16:23:09 CET 2008:


I think the main concern with FIC at the moment is that if they
release the Freerunner developer-only hardware now, produced in 10x
the quantity of the 1973 (what was hinted to earlier), and some major
hardware problem was found, it could destroy the credibility and the
resources of the project. I hate waiting like this, and I was hoping
to get the Freerunner developer model for my birthday in a few weeks,
but I'd much rather wait and have the guarantee that I won't be SOL if
there is a problem with the function or the longevity of the device.


Which is worse: the fear of possible failure, or certain failure?
Clearly the words of someone who's never, ever, worked on a complex 
hardware project. No, "just ship it" is not good advice.

The fear of failure is usually self-fulfilling prophecy.
Lack of proper planning and oversight, not to mention due diligence, 
pretty much always is.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Do you have any notion of what it costs to produce multiple thousands of 
smartphones, just in monetary terms? That's a lot to "venture".
If they're constantly going to give in to the fear of failure, then 
that is certainly what's going

to happen.
Like I say, I don't get the impression that you've got the experience to 
have an informed opinion on this, in all honesty.




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Re: LiMo article in Washington Post (or "Another Rant From Lefty")

[David "Lefty" Schlesinger]

Steven ** wrote:
> The article says "Anyone hoping to create new applications for
> competing proprietary programs from Microsoft Corp., Palm Inc.,
> Research in Motion Ltd. or Nokia Corp.'s Symbian must pay licensing
> fees."
>   
First off, this aspect of the story isn't even accurate. I'm not aware
that third-party application developers need to pay anybody anything to
write such applications for Windows Mobile- or for Symbian-based systems
(whether the Series 60 ones from Nokia or the UIQ ones from
Sony-Ericsson). They most certainly don't pay licensing fees to write
applications for Garnet OS, which powers Palm devices (and which is a
product of ACCESS), and they never have. I don't know about RIM devices.

This writer is confused between, on the one hand, commercial license
fees for applications developers, and, on the other, the license fees
which device manufacturers (such as Palm, Nokia, HTC, etc.) pay to
operating system vendors (like ACCESS, Symbian, and Microsoft,
respectively) to make the units they sell which use those operating
systems. (Palm actually bought a perpetual license to Garnet from us a
while back, so they don't have to pay us licensing fees any more, as it
happens.)

This is substantially different than, for example, the situation with Qt
and Trolltech, where application developers /do /have to get a
commercial license (for about US$2,000) from Trolltech if they want to
make applications which they will sell rather than give away (which they
can do under GPL 3 terms at this point). This is possible because, while
Qt is indeed open source, Trolltech holds the copyright and can dictate
commercial terms regardless of its status as "free" (as in speech, not
as in beer) software.
> So, I'd say it doesn't relate to OpenMoko.  OpenMoko is truly an open
> platform that you can develop for without restrictions and without
> paying anything.  "LiMo" seems to me to be some big companies grabbing
> on to what they believe to be this great new buzz-word:  Linux.
I'd say it /should /relate to OpenMoko. LiMo is about middleware, things
like messaging frameworks, telephony frameworks, etc., which is an
overlap area with OpenMoko, true. On the other hand, LiMo devices will
evidently be using not only the Linux kernel, but also things like GTK
and the like, components which OpenMoko uses as well. If the companies
in LiMo make improvements to GTK, would you recommend that OpenMoko
refuse to look at them on the basis that they came from "some big
companies grabbing on to what they believe to be this great new
buzz-word: Linux"...?

Seems unreasonable (and unwise) to me. People keep wishing that they
could run the OpenMoko stack (for whatever degree of "runnable") on
devices other than the Neo; they complain about how the carriers "don't
get it" (without necessarily understanding the nature of the global
wireless telecommunications business to any particular degree); the
companies in LiMo represent some of the largest carriers and
manufacturers of cell phones in the world

I'd say ignoring them, rather than working to positively engage with
them, will ensure that OpenMoko is relegated to a small number of
hard-to-get devices for "hobbyists", and that the capabilities of phones
coming out of the "big companies" in LiMo will quickly surpass them;
these folks make phones for a living, not for fun. Be as suspicious as
you like, but I'd suggest that's unproductive; LiMo's published APIs for
you to look at, and they seem to be putting out a lot more information
(including some podcasts explaining their view of what they're doing and
the market as they see it), so if you want to critique 'em, at least you
can do it on an informed basis.

As Harlan Ellison observed, "Everyone's entitled to an /educated /opinion."

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Re: Access Linux Platform SDK released

[David "Lefty" Schlesinger]

Sébastien Lorquet wrote:
> This one is based on GTK
>
> http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9619/access-linux-platform-sdk-released/
>
> What do you think of this?
Personally, I'm very pleased.
> I'm worried about interoperability. There are a number of different
> Linux platforms now, but nothing guarantees applications will be
> easily portable across them. So I feel everyone is reinventing the
> wheel for every application! Is this really the case?
Actually, if you like, plain old vanilla GTK applications will run just
fine on ALP devices, modulo screen size versus form layout. We've been
extremely careful to only invent wheels where there didn't happen to be
any, and we've released some of those as open source over at
www.hikerproject.org. We've got improved widgets and such to work better
where screen real estate is limited, but it's all pretty standard "GNOME
technologies" stuff.

So, if it /is /the case, it's not particularly on account of us.

David "Lefty" Schlesinger
Director, Open Source Technologies
ACCESS Co., Ltd.

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Re: Possible to add "OpenMoko" to the email title

[David "Lefty" Schlesinger]

David Shanks wrote:
>
> I suppose this is directed to the list moderators/admins.
> I was wondering if there is a way to have "openmoko" or some list
> descriptor like "community" added in front of the subject of the
> emails sent out by the list.
> It would make sorting my emails much simpler, as right now i'm forced
> to sort my mailbox by hand daily. 
Why don't you use Thunderbird, and simply set up a message filter on the
"To:" address?

Manual sorting is for people who don't have computers.




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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[David \"Lefty\" Schlesinger]

> Anyone saw new Apple announcement? Now iPhone is priced at $399..

...an act which has certainly pissed off all the folks who got suckered
into standing in lines for days and paying through the nose to be the
first kid on the block with one. This will not incent future potential
buyers to get, for example, an "iPod Touch" right away, as opposed to
waiting a few months to see what the price drop will be. Not a good
strategic move.

Beyond that, a price drop of 33% on a product scarcely two months old
strongly suggests that iPhones are not exactly flying off the shelves
now that the initial reaction has died down...


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Re: Convince me NOT to cancel my order.

[David \"Lefty\" Schlesinger]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> IMHO, Your response here to Joe was uncalled for and frankly, rude.
>   
I said much the same to this person, off-list, and got an equally
churlish response. I see a spam filter coming with his email address on
it...



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Re: Finger Graffiti

[David \"Lefty\" Schlesinger]

Giles Jones wrote:
> Except that OpenMoko is a completely made up phrase which has no other
> use in the English language.
That's completely irrelevant, I'm afraid. (By the way, there was a "Cafe
Moko" right around the corner from my hotel in London; I've got a
picture of the sign someplace...)
>
> Graffiti is a dictionary word. Trademarks against dictionary words are
> stupid. Microsoft should never have been able to trademark Windows
> either.
Trademarks exist in specific contexts for particular usages, they're not
a global thing. I'm obligated to deal with trademark law as I find it;
if you wish it were something different, you'll need to write your
Congressional representative...



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Re: Finger Graffiti

[David \"Lefty\" Schlesinger]

Jay Vaughan wrote:
> it just happens that Graffiti is what people know "finger painting on
> your PDA" to be .. its common enough to warrant usage as a word
> referring to the activity of finger-painting symbols for recognition
> on a devices surface.
No, sorry, this is incorrect, and precisely _why_ I have to point out
that Graffiti is a registered trademark: it is _not_ a generic term for
"finger painting on your PDA", "Graffiti" refers to a specific writing
system and implementation of that system, and no other.

The reason for mentioning trademark status is specifically to keep it
from _becoming_ a generic term (like "zipper", "kleenex" and, to an
extent, "xerox", have become generic terms), and is something which, as
I've said, holding a trademark obligates the owner to do. Sean and team
will be obliged to do precisely the same sort of thing if they become
aware of someone (mis)using the "OpenMoko" trademark in some way that
they didn't intend.

This is basic trademark law, I'm afraid.



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Re: Finger Graffiti

[David \"Lefty\" Schlesinger]

Graffiti (as it pertains to handwriting systems) is a registered
trademark of ACCESS Systems Americas, not a generic term; you want to
find some alternate terminology.

Sorry, gotta point it out, it's part of my job...

Nkoli wrote:
> So, there I was pretending my phone has a touchscreen while I wait for
> GTA02 when this idea popped into my head for a keyboard alternative. I
> would very much like to hear thoughts. The design would remove the
> onscreen keyboard completely and replace it with a Graffiti-like
> interface that can recognize something as wide as a finger or as tiny
> as a stylus. A couple of icons for a symbols list and other essentials
> that the user may not want to write out (ex www., .com or greek
> letters) will be all that's left of the keyboard. For the sake of
> minimalism, the entire screen, excluding the very top or bottom where
> the icons are, will be used as the input area. The app should be
> activated or deactivated with one touch just like the current
> keyboard. It would have to have some excellent text recognition as
> well as a built in dictionary to suggest words, which should make up
> for any holes in the text recognition. Also, a find as you write
> feature will be handy for finding folders in the main menu, names in
> the contact list or numbers in the logs, basically reducing scrolling
> through areas that aren't primarily text based. The benefits of this
> finger graffiti are that it has a learning curve of zero, eliminates
> hunting and pecking so anyone can write quickly without needing to get
> used to the onscreen keyboard. Oh yeah, it's as fast as you can move
> your fingers and it can easily be done one handed. I have little
> experience with programming and I hardly do more than write little
> time saving scripts nowadays, so I honestly have no concept of what
> such an app would take. What d'you guys think?
> 
>
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Re: Camera on GTA02

[David "Lefty" Schlesinger]

coomac wrote:
> On 7/23/07, *Giles Jones* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > wrote:
>
>
> As mention previously, anything which requires the modification of
> the casing will be very expensive and so it's not planned.
>
> I'm sure however that people will have a go at hacking the unit
> and addition a module in somehow.
>
> Personally it's not a feature I care for, what with owning an SLR.
>
> I'm hoping to port some photo management software, maybe use ufRaw
> or similar. So you'd be able to hook up your SLR or compact. But
> obviously memory is tight on the device.
>
> ---
> G O Jones
>
>
> Thanks for clearing that up. I had been waiting for an announcement of
> the camera resolution like a kid on christmas eve. Was really hoping
> for a 3 MP to replace my current phone or at least a 2 MP with video
> to better trounce the iPhone. I still have high hopes for the phone,
> though I can't help wondering how much the lack of a basic camera will
> affect mass adoption.
>
> Possibly very ignorant on my part, but I was under the assumption
> modifying the case to add a camera hole would be a very minor change
> (read inexpensive). Ie drilling (cutting out?) a hole and covering it
> with some transparent material like glass or plastic. I know zilch
> about how this works on a large scale, so it is entirely possible I'm
> wrong here.
Sigh. I'm having flashbacks to the "can't you just add some WiFi?"
discussions of the GTA-01 unit.

Okay, since I seem to frequently function as the injector of some
reality into these discussions (aka "wet blanket"), yes, drilling a hole
in the case is straightforward. Now, how do you propose to actually wire
the camera module into the rest of the system, dare I ask...?




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Re: freetheiphone.org

[David "Lefty" Schlesinger]

Operator phone requirements are huge and ornate, and, essentially,
conformance testing is done "by invitation only", only for phones that
the operator is planning on selling directly. The requirements for one
major European carrier are about 1200 pages in length... The
requirements are only available under an NDA.

vivek khurana wrote:
> On 7/20/07, Shakthi Kannan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> > Adam Krikstone wrote:
>> > There's
>> > nothing stopping a GSM provider from blocking all unbranded IMEI's,
>> > including your neo.
>>
>> Different operators have different implementation of the GSM standard,
>> which they call it their "IP-crap-R".
>>
>> Now, if we want Operator Acceptance Testing with Neo, we have to sign
>> NDA, SLA with the operators?
>>
>> In which case, we cannot implement the same on the Neo as the source
>> code is open, and operators will not like that?
>>
>> Please correct me if I am wrong.
>
> I think acceptance test is required when a phone is locked with a
> plan. In situations where you can use unlocked phones without
> requiring permissions from GSM operators, no such test should be
> required.
> Probably, acceptance test is applicable to GSM chipset and not the
> phone as such.
> Btw any documents/pointers on so called operator acceptance test ?
>
> regards
> VK
>
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Re: Access relationships

[David \"Lefty\" Schlesinger]

Phil Schaffner wrote:
> So, Lefty;
>
> What can you share about Access and ALP and the relationship to OpenMoko 
> and/or other open source efforts (realizing that you probably can't spill all 
> the beans :-)?  Given your comments about former employer Apple, and activity 
> on this list, seems open source software must be important to you personally.
>   
OpenMoko and the ACCESS Linux Platform are essentially independent
efforts, although we have a lot of code--mostly GNOME-related stuff--in
common. This gives us a lot of common interests, and representatives
from both projects are involved, for instance, in the GNOME Mobile
Initiative. One of the reasons for the differences in approach is that
FIC sells hardware (and uses software to make those sales); ACCESS sells
software to companies that _make_ hardware. Very different business models.

In his presentation here at GUADEC today, Mickey Lauer expressed
interest in getting components from the Hiker Project
(www.hikerproject.org) into OpenMoko, something I'd certainly think
worthwhile for all of us, and which I'm encouraging.
> Will the Garnet/PalmOS emulator be likely to be available on OpenMoko?
>   
Nope. The Garnet ROM is proprietary to ACCESS. I suppose if FIC/OpenMoko
wanted to come to some sort of business arrangement with us to make it
available, that's something we'd certainly be willing to discuss, but
Garnet VM is something we sell...
> The license certainly seems limiting:
>   
Yup. A funny thing happened to me last Friday: I got paid.
> Access has lots of words about open source (e.g.
> http://www.access-company.com/about/opensource/index.html).  Can we
> expect to see real cooperation?  How open will Garnet OS be compared to
> OpenMoko?
>   
Define "real cooperation". You seem to be operating off of some sort of
unspoken assumptions, and I'd be interested in hearing what they are;
I'm thinking they're well off the mark.

Garnet, a proprietary legacy OS, isn't comparable to OpenMoko. The
ACCESS Linux Platform is a mix of open source and proprietary
components. We currently _are_ really cooperating, in GNOME Mobile, for
starts. I've been strongly encouraging Sean to get OpenMoko involved in
other relevant groups, such as the Linux Phone Standards Forum
(www.lipsforum.org), and the Linux Foundation, but that, sadly, hasn't
happened so far.

ACCESS is extremely active in industry and community initiatives in
order to ensure that mobile Linux platforms don't get fragmented. I'm
the chair of the Linux Foundation's Mobile Working Group, and vice-chair
of the LiPS Architectural Working Group.
> Don't see any "community" around Access of the vitality of OpenMoko.
>   
Hm. I don't know what you consider to be "vitality". Crafting marketing
messages for a phone that won't be ready to be sold to anyone but
hackers--a point Mickey made quite clearly this morning--for six months
to a year...? I'm not sure, myself.
> The Access forums seem rather limited.  Some real two-way-street
> cooperation would seemingly be mutually beneficial to the two efforts,
> as well as to embedded/phone FOSS more generally.
>   
ACCESS has an active developer program which anyone is welcome to join
and participate in. Our own main efforts, right now, are involved in
working with various hardware manufacturers (and no, I can't name them:
our customers don't like it much when I pre-announce their product plans
for them). Our main community activity right at the moment is the Hiker
Project (I'm presenting on this at GUADEC today, and I presented on it
at Ottawa Linux Symposium late last month). Feel free to join in there
if you like.

For more information on the ACCESS Developers' Network, see
www.*access*-company.com/*developer*s/

As I mentioned above, ACCESS is very much involved in community efforts
on a number of levels: beyond our involvement in groups like GMAE, LiPS
and the Linux Foundation, we're sponsors of this year's GUADEC, and we
sponsored FOSTEL. There are lots of ways that companies can contribute
to the open source community. We're doing our share, I'd say.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I feel as though I detect a tone in your
message here suggesting that you'd like to somehow pit ACCESS' efforts
against OpenMoko's. That surely doesn't seem like a way to encourage
"real cooperation", does it...?


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Re: Fwd: Not "the free phone"

[David \"Lefty\" Schlesinger]

Sven wrote:
> I'd call it the tuxphone.
>   
Why?

Do you need to be wearing a tuxedo to use it...?

(Yes, _I_ know, and _you_ know, but trust me, Sean will be spending the
next year answering exactly that sort of question.)




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Re: Not "the free phone"

[David \"Lefty\" Schlesinger]

Giles Jones wrote:
> Maybe, but then I think all the marketing is academic without the
> software being there and working.
Oh, finally. Thanks, Giles. I'd have to say that "academic" is an
understatement: if you actually sold one to someone who wasn't capable
of building and installing a Linux system on the device, and wasn't
aware that the software was incomplete and unstable, you'd be doing them
a serious disservice if you created the impression that this was a phone
on which they'd be able to rely on a day-to-day basis.

I have no idea who folks are hoping to market this phone to in this
fashion. If you're going after "the open source community", you can
count on selling dozens; maybe even scores. But there's no way that this
device can be marketed to _real_ end-users until the software is in a
substantially more solid state.

On average, folks who buy cell phones are not likely to buy one based on
the notion that one provides more "liberty"--they'll have no idea what
you're talking about, and if you attempt to explain it, they'll _still_
have no idea what you're talking about. In fact, you're going to have to
work harder to sell an unlocked phone to folks (at least in the States,
where such things are pretty rare) at all--it's actually _less_
convenient for them, in that they're going to have to go through a
run-around with some carrier or other to get service.

Even the "Your phone, your way" message is quite misleading. I haven't
attempted to get a naked SIM card from, say, AT&T, but I bet they're not
especially well set-up to handle requests like that. It's even possible
that they might refuse to do it at all: carriers have requirements for
the devices which use their networks, and they might well insist that
you obtain _some_ phone from them to surround your SIM card with.

_Now_ your big marketing challenge becomes explaining to my grandma why
she needs to get a _different_ phone in order to use _this_ phone. All
of this "freedom" talk is both off the mark, as well as beside the
point, in my opinion.

The best thing people can do to make this all a reality is to help out
with the software development, if they're able to.


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Re: Reason for openmoko - bugsafe?

[David \"Lefty\" Schlesinger]

Lars Hallberg wrote:
> I think the issue is if the phone can bug *any* conversation You have
> when the phone is around, not only phone conversations. That is a
> valid concern. And I believe Neo can be safe if we make sure to use
> the mixer to turn of the mic/speaker connection to the gsm chip while
> there is no active phonecall... That is... unless ti have a mic on the
> gsm chip :-)
I'm personally quite confident that if some government or other decides
that they need to listen in on my conversations, my having a cellphone
which won't cooperate with them isn't going to slow them down
particularly. I'm also quite confident that I'm not interesting enough
to any government for them to go to the trouble.

On my list of "things to worry about", this possibility ranks a good bit
below things like "being struck by lightning" and "being eaten by a
Great White Shark".



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Re: Reason for openmoko - bugsafe?

[David \"Lefty\" Schlesinger]

Okay, not to put too fine a point on it, but this is possibly the
silliest reason ever for choosing one phone over another. Cell phone
communications are transmitted via radio, and are trivial to eavesdrop
on with the right equipment. If you're actually worried about this
possibility (and I can't really imagine why anyone would be), then you
need not to use cell phones. In fact, you probably need to use nothing
but randomly-selected _pay_ phones.

(And you're using _gmail_? Wow.)

Edwin Lock wrote:
> http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/92713
>
> Hello Openmokoers!
> This is actually the reason that I got to read about the openmoko, I
> read an article about mobile phones being bug-able some time ago and
> googled for an open linux phone. And I found the openmoko ;)
> Just a quick question, what the police are doing, described in the
> article, is this only software or can that be done with only the gsm
> chip or so? My question is actually: Is the neo protected against this
> kind of bugging or not? It's not that I'm a terrorist or so but I just
> don't feel very safe otherwise ;)
> Greetings,
> Edwin Lock
>
> PS: Sorry, the article is in german..
>
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Re: Fake Steve Rags on OpenMoko!

[David \"Lefty\" Schlesinger]

Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:
> >If you were writing a tongue-in-cheek piece what pithy term would you
> >use for open-source folks?
>   
"Communists"...?
> >It is all good clean fun. Don't take it too seriously.
>   
I used to _work_ for Apple, and I know "Real Steve"... Believe me, I'm
the _last_ person who'd "take it too seriously"...




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Fake Steve Rags on OpenMoko!

[David \"Lefty\" Schlesinger]

I don't recall having seen a mention of this on the list previously, but
"Fake Steve Jobs" has taken notice of the FIC1973...

http://fakesteve.blogspot.com/2007/06/freetards-are-trying-to-make-iphone.html

"Freetards", hm?


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Re: Lightweight 'navigational' app? (Was Re: Real Neo1973 photo / Neo delayed...!?)

[David \"Lefty\" Schlesinger]

On Fri, 2007-01-12 at 02:50 +0100, Attila Csipa wrote:

> The one little problem with that:


I was gonna say...


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