Re: [openBmap] GSM/GPS logger 0.4.0 is out! (Legal status)
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:28 PM, Onen onen...@free.fr wrote: Alex (Maxious) Sadleir wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 7:01 AM, Onenonen...@free.fr wrote: Alex, could you be more specific, I am not sure to understand what you have in mind? Are you wondering if we could log cells from other operators with only one phone? Exactly. I don't know alot about GSM. On one hand, you can see the other networks. On the other, there's a registration process to connect to those networks so even if it were possible to build a device to collect data unauthenticaed, the Calypso probably doesn't have that functionality. We have tried this with FR and firmware moko11 with Joerg Reisenweber: no SIM card, and try to see neighbour cells. We tried to see if FSO was able to give some output through monitoring interface. But it did not work. yeah I tried with a SIM that was expired (1year inactivity on a pre-paid SIM -- SIM gets deactivated) it said SOS only but openBmap could see anything didn't try AT commands... y ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openBmap] GSM/GPS logger 0.4.0 is out! (Legal status)
Alex (Maxious) Sadleir wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 7:01 AM, Onenonen...@free.fr wrote: Alex, could you be more specific, I am not sure to understand what you have in mind? Are you wondering if we could log cells from other operators with only one phone? Exactly. I don't know alot about GSM. On one hand, you can see the other networks. On the other, there's a registration process to connect to those networks so even if it were possible to build a device to collect data unauthenticaed, the Calypso probably doesn't have that functionality. We have tried this with FR and firmware moko11 with Joerg Reisenweber: no SIM card, and try to see neighbour cells. We tried to see if FSO was able to give some output through monitoring interface. But it did not work. I have to retry by sending direct AT command though, to be sure if this works or not. Onen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openBmap] GSM/GPS logger 0.4.0 is out! (Legal status)
On 28 Jul 2009, at 11:35, Patryk Benderz wrote: ... Hi, did you considered legal side of this work? I mean, do GSM operators in all countries allow us to collect these data? The data is publicly observable, so I don't see how they can claim any copyright upon it. If you're drawing a map you mark a hill upon it, the farmer who owns the hill surely cannot take action against you. (Assume you do not set foot upon the property, but estimate location height of the peak by observation triangulation from other nearby points of known height public accessibility). I don't see that it could be covered by a user agreement, because cell towers advertise their presence to users of other networks. What legal issues do YOU foresee, in which jurisdictions? Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openBmap] GSM/GPS logger 0.4.0 is out! (Legal status)
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 7:15 PM, Strollerstrol...@stellar.eclipse.co.uk wrote: On 28 Jul 2009, at 11:35, Patryk Benderz wrote: ... Hi, did you considered legal side of this work? I mean, do GSM operators in all countries allow us to collect these data? The data is publicly observable, so I don't see how they can claim any copyright upon it. The legality of cellid collecting projects has been discussed before here (and probably also in other communities) Harald Welte mentioned the potential for legal issues in austria: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:39:31 +0200 Subject: Re: locating via GSM, revisited (legal sidenote) Just as a general note added to the discussion: As far as I remember, there has been a highest federal court ruling in Austria some time ago, stating that the location information though present for anyone to read in the intrinsics of the GSM signal, cannot be used without explicit permission by the network operator. The point they made was that the subscription contract between the operator and the customer covers things like voice calls, data calls, GPRS data, etc - but it does not permit the use of GSM signals for locating the handset on the customer side. I don't say I like this, and I also don't say OM should not investigate thsi further. I'm just stating that there are legal issues and somebody inside FIC legal should probably do an extensive survey of the legal situation all over the target market to make sure OM doesn't get into trouble here. (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-April/002507.html) But the technology has moved on since april last year and possibly even google is collecting and submitting back more GSM + GPS data in this way through it's java google maps clients. I don't see that it could be covered by a user agreement, because cell towers advertise their presence to users of other networks. This interests me more! Can we do this with the Calypso GSM module? I only have sim cards for valid for registration on 1 network but there are 3 networks available. I'm happy to not be registered to any network/not have functioning GSM while collecting data about cellids. Is it already showing up the reports you get in the FSO interface? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openBmap] GSM/GPS logger 0.4.0 is out! (Legal status)
Hi, thanks for pointing this email from Harald Welte. We have not looked much at the legal side. Because we found a lot of public work (research, etc.) about locating your phone thanks to GSM signals. We also found different projects which uses the GSM data, and log it. And as the data is freely available, we considered it good enough to be used. (not to mention that Google has logged it, and uses it through its Web service). Alex, could you be more specific, I am not sure to understand what you have in mind? Are you wondering if we could log cells from other operators with only one phone? Onen Alex (Maxious) Sadleir wrote: (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-April/002507.html) I don't see that it could be covered by a user agreement, because cell towers advertise their presence to users of other networks. This interests me more! Can we do this with the Calypso GSM module? I only have sim cards for valid for registration on 1 network but there are 3 networks available. I'm happy to not be registered to any network/not have functioning GSM while collecting data about cellids. Is it already showing up the reports you get in the FSO interface? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openBmap] GSM/GPS logger 0.4.0 is out! (Legal status)
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 7:01 AM, Onenonen...@free.fr wrote: Alex, could you be more specific, I am not sure to understand what you have in mind? Are you wondering if we could log cells from other operators with only one phone? Exactly. I don't know alot about GSM. On one hand, you can see the other networks. On the other, there's a registration process to connect to those networks so even if it were possible to build a device to collect data unauthenticaed, the Calypso probably doesn't have that functionality. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openBmap] GSM/GPS logger 0.4.0 is out!
[cut] Hi, did you considered legal side of this work? I mean, do GSM operators in all countries allow us to collect these data? -- Kind Regards Patryk Benderz IT Specialist Linux Registered User #377521 +48 22 538 6292 ERSTE Securities Polska S.A. ul. Królewska 16 Warszawa 00-103 KRS 065121 NIP 526-10-27-638 REGON 011136053 Kapitał akcyjny: 15.500.000 złotych (w pełni opłacony) This message and any attached files are confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s). Any publication, transmission or other use of the information by a person or entity other than the intended addressee is prohibited. If you receive this in error please contact the sender and delete the material. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions as a result of the transmission. Email secured by Check Point ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openBmap] GSM/GPS logger 0.4.0 is out!
Am Dienstag, 28. Juli 2009 12:35:47 schrieb Patryk Benderz: [cut] Hi, did you considered legal side of this work? I mean, do GSM operators in all countries allow us to collect these data? This data is kinda obvious, one could also walk around and look for GSM anntennas... How would they forbid collecting that data? Everything can be abused for terrorist acts, even your local street lamps if they are turned off suddenly and cars crash then... :/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openBmap] GSM/GPS logger 0.4.0 is out!
Thanks Onen. You are right but I would like to have a 'clear statement' about the cell logging process. If I use one of those 2 applications and submitt my data, do I contribute to the community? That's my goal as a 'regular and dummy user'! I am willing to help but what's the best way to achieve the most? Thanks Tony On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Onen onen...@free.fr wrote: Hi, this has been discussed a couple of times on this mailing list already. You will find the details in the archive here [1]. But to sum it up: We are focusing on quality of data, and not only quantity, because we believe otherwise we will have a big database of useless data. We are interested in logging other things too, such as Wi-Fi. We are working on a location service (we are talking with people from FSO), in order to get your location from the data. We are also ready to log extra info people think might be useful, even if we don't use it for now. Thus the database might be used to try location algorithms, security, etc. We are releasing improvements on a regular basis. And all help is of course welcome!!! Feel free if you have more questions, Onen [1] http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-June/049013.html Tony Berth wrote: Hi, what's the difference to 'cellhunter'? Thanks Tony ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openBmap] GSM/GPS logger 0.4.0 is out!
Hi Tony, Tony Berth wrote: Thanks Onen. You are right but I would like to have a 'clear statement' about the cell logging process. If I use one of those 2 applications and submitt my data, do I contribute to the community? That's my goal as a 'regular and dummy user'! If you use any of the two projects, you contribute to the community, because the data is available from both projects. But I (of course ;-) ) thinks it is better to use openBmap. I am willing to help but what's the best way to achieve the most? I am not sure this should be my role. I mean, I can give you my arguments, but it is your choice to make. But if you want a clear statement from me: use openBmap! If I would not believe at the most in openBmap, I would not spend my time on it. So if you ask me, I will of course tell you to use our project. I don't think it helps you a lot though, I might be biased ;-) What else would you expect from me? We tend to log more, we focus on logging high quality data, you can find your data in our tools a couple of hours after uploading it (maps, etc., look at it, to see if you like it). These are some of my arguments as stated in my first answer. If you want more details feel free to ask. But, in the end, you should make *your* choice :-) I hope it is somehow what you were expecting. If not please be more specific. Onen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openBmap] GSM/GPS logger 0.4.0 is out!
Hi, this has been discussed a couple of times on this mailing list already. You will find the details in the archive here [1]. But to sum it up: We are focusing on quality of data, and not only quantity, because we believe otherwise we will have a big database of useless data. We are interested in logging other things too, such as Wi-Fi. We are working on a location service (we are talking with people from FSO), in order to get your location from the data. We are also ready to log extra info people think might be useful, even if we don't use it for now. Thus the database might be used to try location algorithms, security, etc. We are releasing improvements on a regular basis. And all help is of course welcome!!! Feel free if you have more questions, Onen [1] http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-June/049013.html Tony Berth wrote: Hi, what's the difference to 'cellhunter'? Thanks Tony ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openBmap] GSM/GPS logger 0.4.0 is out!
On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Onen onen...@free.fr wrote: Hi everyone, comments from people have been used to build a new graphical interface! I hope you will like it! The list of changes can be found below... Thanks to mrmoku, Stefan Schmidt, and Sebastian Reichel, the packages are available in SHR, FSO, Debian, etc feeds. opkg|apt-get install openbmap-logger ! SUMMARY: The purpose of this software is to log GSM data, together with GPS coordinate. This data are sent to the website (www.openbmap.org), in order to build a free database. Possible uses of this database: * get your location based on the current GSM cell you are connected to. (GPS needs extra power to function, GSM is always on. Less precise than GPS, but enough for a lot of usages. Instant location, GPS needs time to get a fix.) * speed up GPS first time to fix by providing the location based on GSM data * etc. WHAT'S NEW SINCE 0.3.3? === * New graphical interface! * Glade file path not hardcoded anymore. * Application logging level now in config file. * Added cells seen statistics. * Details in CHANGELOG. WHAT'S NEW SINCE 0.3.2? === The version number 0.3.3 has been used in logs uploaded to the server. It was meant as a testing number for version 0.4.0 only. WARNING: * Please note that if you have your .openBmap folder located on your uSD card, setting the application logging output level to debug seems to make the logger take too much time for looping, thus rejecting the logs. By default, the level is set to info, and works well. * Note that the application refused to launch after an upgrade of SHR. This was because the GSM resource was not enabled. That means I had no working GSM anyway. Try rebooting ;-) Onen Hi, what's the difference to 'cellhunter'? Thanks Tony ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
[openBmap] GSM/GPS logger 0.4.0 is out!
Hi everyone, comments from people have been used to build a new graphical interface! I hope you will like it! The list of changes can be found below... Thanks to mrmoku, Stefan Schmidt, and Sebastian Reichel, the packages are available in SHR, FSO, Debian, etc feeds. opkg|apt-get install openbmap-logger ! SUMMARY: The purpose of this software is to log GSM data, together with GPS coordinate. This data are sent to the website (www.openbmap.org), in order to build a free database. Possible uses of this database: * get your location based on the current GSM cell you are connected to. (GPS needs extra power to function, GSM is always on. Less precise than GPS, but enough for a lot of usages. Instant location, GPS needs time to get a fix.) * speed up GPS first time to fix by providing the location based on GSM data * etc. WHAT'S NEW SINCE 0.3.3? === * New graphical interface! * Glade file path not hardcoded anymore. * Application logging level now in config file. * Added cells seen statistics. * Details in CHANGELOG. WHAT'S NEW SINCE 0.3.2? === The version number 0.3.3 has been used in logs uploaded to the server. It was meant as a testing number for version 0.4.0 only. WARNING: * Please note that if you have your .openBmap folder located on your uSD card, setting the application logging output level to debug seems to make the logger take too much time for looping, thus rejecting the logs. By default, the level is set to info, and works well. * Note that the application refused to launch after an upgrade of SHR. This was because the GSM resource was not enabled. That means I had no working GSM anyway. Try rebooting ;-) Onen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
