Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Hi, To me: The clearly most useful part of the bq27000 is the current measurement. You get what seems to be a reasonably accurate measure of the current flow to/from the battery updated every 25 s or so. It's much more practical than an external ammeter: No need to open the case and fiddle with probes, you can measure battery current while in the train, at work or wherever. Having it built in makes accurate current measurement available to many more people in a lot more places. Here's a few examples where the current measurements have proven useful: 1) Tracking down that current leak from the serial ports into the Calypso. 2) Finding that 8 mA apmd current leak Debian used to have. 3) Confirming the X.org server screen blanker current leak of 38 mA. 4) Measuring the effectiveness of reducing CPU clock and core voltage. It's an good easy way proposed, it would be probably get the related current leak to spyware. But I just wondering that is there anyone who really did a whole current measurement about battery's consumption; not only indicators are partly in percentage. Any exact plot of current curve have illustrated by CC/CV mode [1]? then compared to battery's specification to check? I am searching that is there an existing linux software that it can remote DMM measure to do real current/voltage measure. Hope someone knows. Adam Hopefully it will also help to curb assorted forms of spyware because they will be easier to detect with the power consumption figures readily available. [1] http://focus.ti.com/lit/ml/sprp569/sprp569.pdf ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
The trivial #1024 GSM fix (Was: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready)
On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 11:17:48PM +0400, Paul Fertser wrote: arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de writes: the only time i ever heard of 140h suspend were the mail from daniel willmann after he applied a hw fix to #1024. Yes, exactly. But fixing is fairly trivial, the soldering part is in fact easier than the buzz fix. Yes, the soldering part. So you only have the remaining parts to do: 1) Find somewhere to buy a 10 uF SMD capacitor small enough. E.g. there's nowhere in Denmark I can get one. I'd need to go abroad (Malmö, Sweden)[1] for a shop that sells a 0805 16 V one to hobbyists or, as I'll do in this case, buy 20 0805 22 uF ones from Digikey, of which 18 will be used for the bass fix, one for #1024 and one for fun and games[2]. 2) Disassemble the Neo not doing any damage. 3) Take the can off in such a shape as to be able to put it on again. 5) Put the can back on in a reasonably good shape. 6) Assemble the Neo. And the thing is, if you don't already have a soldering iron and can't borrow one (including someone to operate it?) then part 4) isn't really all that trivial either. Unless someone sets up a #1024 fix programme, like there was the buzz fix programme, the #1024 fix will likely be out of reach to most of those affected. So the lady looked at the riot from the comfort of her castle. Why is the crowd so angry? she asked. They have no money to buy bread, mylady she was explained. Can't they just eat cookies? she asked. These days, you're less likely to be punished by hanging for such behaviour. But I think you should still not assume that every Neo owner has access to the #1024 GSM fix necessary for the 140 hour standby time. [1] http://www.electrokit.se/ [2] If I had an A5, I'd give it a shot to make it start without a battery. -- Rask Ingemann Lambertsen Danish law requires addresses in e-mail to be logged and stored for a year ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
On Mon, Aug 03, 2009 at 10:05:58AM +0200, Rafael Campos wrote: Nice discussion on the follow mails, but i've a doubt On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Paul Fertser fercer...@gmail.com wrote: Q: But why doesn't it ever stop charging on my device? A: The GSM modem is connected directly to the battery terminals so if it's active, charger will think it's still charging the battery and won't turn off unless GSM becomes inactive. The default threshold is about 16mA, the latest Qi increases the threshold to ~32mA. Is this true for gta02 deevices only or it's the same for gta01? The threshold on the gta01 can be 0.05, 0.10, 0.20 or 0.40 times Ifast, where Ifast is 111 mV / 0.22 Ohm = 504 mA. The gta01 uses a threhold of 0.2 * Ifast = 100 mA. Btw, on the gta02, there's a switch U1705 between the battery and the GSM modem. It's not like on the gta01 where the GSM modem can stay on while the gta01 is otherwise turned off. Q: Does it mean if i leave my phone plugged it will eventually fully discharge the battery? A: On gta02 the charger will restart the charge automatically once the battery voltage reaches ~4V which corresponds to ~76%. Not sure about gta01, requires more investigation. :-/ I looked at the PCF50606 manual. I can't see where it restarts charging automatically. -- Rask Ingemann Lambertsen Danish law requires addresses in e-mail to be logged and stored for a year ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 09:20:39PM +0200, Michal Brzozowski wrote: 2009/8/2 Paul Fertser fercer...@gmail.com With GSM on in suspend it should last for 140 hrs and with off it should be even more. Really? Isn't that with deep sleep on? Yes. With GSM off, approximately 8 mA is drawn and the battery should last for something like 150 hours from fully charged battery when new. Hm, so basically your point is that CC allows current measurement in suspend. Ok, but if there're convenient TPs you can use your DMM to do the same as well. Also you can do that by connecting the device via DMM to a lab PSU or a pack of AA batteries. Moreover, there's quite a limited number of usecases (wrt power-management) so those who has some EE skills can do the measurements once and then share the info for everybody. Paul, of all those acronyms I only understand AA batteries. I said I'm a normal user :-) CC = Coulumb counter. Measures the flow of charge to/from the battery. TP = test point. Makes a signal of interest on a PCB available to probes. DMM = digital multi meter. Measures voltage, current, resistance and such. PSU = power supply unit wrt = with regard to * EE = electrical engineering PCB = See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printed_circuit_board * Hey, you said you only understood AA batteries. ;-) -- Rask Ingemann Lambertsen Danish law requires addresses in e-mail to be logged and stored for a year ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
On Mon, Aug 03, 2009 at 01:46:26AM +0800, Wolfgang Spraul wrote: How are people really using the Coulomb counter in gta02? Theoretically I would think that it provides far superior power measurement options for actual software development, just as you write. For example when playing with power saving codes, whether in the kernel, middleware or applications, I would think over the course of several hours or days the Coulomb counter data is the primary means for efficient development. To me: The clearly most useful part of the bq27000 is the current measurement. You get what seems to be a reasonably accurate measure of the current flow to/from the battery updated every 25 s or so. It's much more practical than an external ammeter: No need to open the case and fiddle with probes, you can measure battery current while in the train, at work or wherever. Having it built in makes accurate current measurement available to many more people in a lot more places. Here's a few examples where the current measurements have proven useful: 1) Tracking down that current leak from the serial ports into the Calypso. 2) Finding that 8 mA apmd current leak Debian used to have. 3) Confirming the X.org server screen blanker current leak of 38 mA. 4) Measuring the effectiveness of reducing CPU clock and core voltage. Hopefully it will also help to curb assorted forms of spyware because they will be easier to detect with the power consumption figures readily available. I don't think it is worth it to spend a coulomb counter on each battery. The selling point would be to keep track of battery degradation, but I've already seen it change its mind from 1067 mAh to 1148 mAh - that's an error of two hours worth of idle time at 100 MHz. To get a charge level reading, add a voltmeter connected to the battery terminals. As long as the charge and discharge rates are moderate, it will be good enough. -- Rask Ingemann Lambertsen Danish law requires addresses in e-mail to be logged and stored for a year ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The trivial #1024 GSM fix (Was: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready)
1) Find somewhere to buy a 10 uF SMD capacitor small enough. E.g. there's nowhere in Denmark I can get one. I'd need to go abroad (Malmö, Sweden)[1] i assume, you are located at sjælland, then? any chance you'd be willing to apply that fix to othere people's frerunner? i'd gladly consider a trip to copenhagen or roskilde ... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Rask, I guess it comes down to price. Most normal end users won't need the current measurement as they don't do development, so adding an extra chip to do the measurement either in the device or in every battery might not be worth it. Maybe in the device just run a wire to the 3rd battery pin, then sell it with a non-Coulomb counter battery normally, and offer the Coulomb-counting battery as an add-on for developers? Thanks a lot for your excellent feedback, we need to study this more... Wolfgang On Sun, Aug 09, 2009 at 01:37:00PM +0200, Rask Ingemann Lambertsen wrote: On Mon, Aug 03, 2009 at 01:46:26AM +0800, Wolfgang Spraul wrote: How are people really using the Coulomb counter in gta02? Theoretically I would think that it provides far superior power measurement options for actual software development, just as you write. For example when playing with power saving codes, whether in the kernel, middleware or applications, I would think over the course of several hours or days the Coulomb counter data is the primary means for efficient development. To me: The clearly most useful part of the bq27000 is the current measurement. You get what seems to be a reasonably accurate measure of the current flow to/from the battery updated every 25 s or so. It's much more practical than an external ammeter: No need to open the case and fiddle with probes, you can measure battery current while in the train, at work or wherever. Having it built in makes accurate current measurement available to many more people in a lot more places. Here's a few examples where the current measurements have proven useful: 1) Tracking down that current leak from the serial ports into the Calypso. 2) Finding that 8 mA apmd current leak Debian used to have. 3) Confirming the X.org server screen blanker current leak of 38 mA. 4) Measuring the effectiveness of reducing CPU clock and core voltage. Hopefully it will also help to curb assorted forms of spyware because they will be easier to detect with the power consumption figures readily available. I don't think it is worth it to spend a coulomb counter on each battery. The selling point would be to keep track of battery degradation, but I've already seen it change its mind from 1067 mAh to 1148 mAh - that's an error of two hours worth of idle time at 100 MHz. To get a charge level reading, add a voltmeter connected to the battery terminals. As long as the charge and discharge rates are moderate, it will be good enough. -- Rask Ingemann Lambertsen Danish law requires addresses in e-mail to be logged and stored for a year ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
On 8/10/09, Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@qi-hardware.com wrote: Rask, I guess it comes down to price. Most normal end users won't need the current measurement as they don't do development, so adding an extra chip to do the measurement either in the device or in every battery might not be worth it. Maybe in the device just run a wire to the 3rd battery pin, then sell it with a non-Coulomb counter battery normally, and offer the Coulomb-counting battery as an add-on for developers? Thanks a lot for your excellent feedback, we need to study this more... Wolfgang On Sun, Aug 09, 2009 at 01:37:00PM +0200, Rask Ingemann Lambertsen wrote: On Mon, Aug 03, 2009 at 01:46:26AM +0800, Wolfgang Spraul wrote: How are people really using the Coulomb counter in gta02? Theoretically I would think that it provides far superior power measurement options for actual software development, just as you write. For example when playing with power saving codes, whether in the kernel, middleware or applications, I would think over the course of several hours or days the Coulomb counter data is the primary means for efficient development. To me: The clearly most useful part of the bq27000 is the current measurement. You get what seems to be a reasonably accurate measure of the current flow to/from the battery updated every 25 s or so. It's much more practical than an external ammeter: No need to open the case and fiddle with probes, you can measure battery current while in the train, at work or wherever. Having it built in makes accurate current measurement available to many more people in a lot more places. Here's a few examples where the current measurements have proven useful: 1) Tracking down that current leak from the serial ports into the Calypso. 2) Finding that 8 mA apmd current leak Debian used to have. 3) Confirming the X.org server screen blanker current leak of 38 mA. 4) Measuring the effectiveness of reducing CPU clock and core voltage. Hopefully it will also help to curb assorted forms of spyware because they will be easier to detect with the power consumption figures readily available. I don't think it is worth it to spend a coulomb counter on each battery. The selling point would be to keep track of battery degradation, but I've already seen it change its mind from 1067 mAh to 1148 mAh - that's an error of two hours worth of idle time at 100 MHz. To get a charge level reading, add a voltmeter connected to the battery terminals. As long as the charge and discharge rates are moderate, it will be good enough. Well, for me user experience when using CC battery is much better when using dumb battery. I just tested dumb battery on my gta02 yesterday, and it works fine... but seeing percentage growing up without any charger connected isn't thing which normal user wants to see ;) -- Sebastian Krzyszkowiak dos ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Rafael Campos meth...@gmail.com writes: Q: But why doesn't it ever stop charging on my device? A: The GSM modem is connected directly to the battery terminals so if it's active, charger will think it's still charging the battery and won't turn off unless GSM becomes inactive. The default threshold is about 16mA, the latest Qi increases the threshold to ~32mA. Is this true for gta02 deevices only or it's the same for gta01? I need to look it up in the datasheet and u-boot for gta01 sources to say for sure. It should be roughly the same for gta01, if it's not, it's a bug and should be fixed. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Al Johnson openm...@mazikeen.demon.co.uk writes: Where exactly is this figure from? Are you looking at the battery monitor sysfs entry, or something that gets the incorrect figure from hal? current_now file from sysfs. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Sebastian Krzyszkowiak seba.d...@gmail.com writes: I think he's talking about E battery metter, which proves that he's wrong ;) Sorry for the late reply, but no, I don't run any E stuff :-) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
On 8/4/09, Al Johnson openm...@mazikeen.demon.co.uk wrote: On Monday 03 August 2009, Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote: Timo Juhani Lindfors timo.lindf...@iki.fi writes: Could the capacity measurement get confused during long storage? Answering to myself here: When I charged the battery capacity increased steadily but when it reached 67% it suddenly jumped to 100% in one minute. I think this concludes that the capacity reported by Linux is not always correct. Where exactly is this figure from? Are you looking at the battery monitor sysfs entry, or something that gets the incorrect figure from hal? I think he's talking about E battery metter, which proves that he's wrong ;) -- Sebastian Krzyszkowiak dos ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Timo Juhani Lindfors timo.lindf...@iki.fi writes: Could the capacity measurement get confused during long storage? Answering to myself here: When I charged the battery capacity increased steadily but when it reached 67% it suddenly jumped to 100% in one minute. I think this concludes that the capacity reported by Linux is not always correct. Yes, that's the info from bq27000 that you see. I'll soon expose the flag that tells if bq27000 is certain in its values or not. So yes, i recommend to charge the battery before storage a bit (~50% is ok), and to be sure of capacity to do a calibration cycle (which i'll describe later). -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Nice discussion on the follow mails, but i've a doubt On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Paul Fertser fercer...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, This is a text version of the wikipage [1], feel free to ask new questions there on the talk page. Discussion on this ML is also appreciated (and in fact i'm more comfortable with ML than the wiki). Openmoko devices Battery questions and answers NB: Some of the described behaviour depends on the kernel, the relevant code was pushed on 02 Aug to andy-tracking Hardware capabilities Q: What batteries can be used with gta01 and gta02? A: Original OM gta01, gta02, Nokia BL-5C, BL-6C and compatibles. Q: Do other BL-5/6C compatible batteries fit? A: If the battery is thicker than BL-6C, you won't be able to close the back cover. Q: What is the difference between all those types? A: Capacity: gta01, gta02- 1200 mAh BL-5C old (newer/new) - 850 (970/1050) mAh BL-6C - 1150 mAh Temperature control: gta01, BL-5C, BL-6C - thermistor gta02 - bq27000 Special features: gta02 - accurate and sophisticated reporting of capacity, time_to_full, time_to_empty, temperature and battery current during both charge and discharge thanks to bq27000 (aka Coloumb Counter) Q: What are hardware capabilities of gta01 and gta02 with regard to battery management? A: gta01: charging all battery types, measuring temperature with battery-integrated thermistor (currently charging and measuring temperature for non-gta01 batteries doesn't work due to the kernel driver issues but it's software limitation), measuring battery output voltage, very inaccurate and noisy measuring of battery current gta02: charging all battery types, measuring battery output voltage, communicating with bq27000 Q: Can nokia phones use/charge gta01/gta02 batteries? A: gta01 and gta02 batteries will fit wherever BL-6C fits but they can't be charged in nokia phones unless you isolate the middle pin from the battery and connect a resistor of ~50k (actual measured value on a cold (25C) battery is 75k, on a slightly warm battery - 82k) from it to the ground (to fake a thermistor presence). Q: Can third-party chargers charge gta01/gta02 batteries? A: The good ones will most probably require the same trick needed for nokia phones. More cheaper ones are more likely to ignore thermistor absence. Q: I have several compatible batteries. What are the storage requirements for them? A: Keep in a dry cool place charged to no more than 75%. Safety issues Q: Do OM devices control temperature to stop charging if the battery gets too hot? A: No (probably gta01 does, need to check). Q: Isn't it dangerous? A: No, since all batteries (not raw cells!) have an integrated protection circuits. Q: Can i use that fancy 2800 mAh BL-5C-compatible battery i saw on ebay? A: Unless you want an explosion in your pocket i wouldn't recommend using any battery that is not produced by a reputable vendor and widely tested. And even reputable vendors make mistakes, nokia once had to recall 46 million batteries manufactured by Matsushita ( http://batteryreplacement.nokia.com/batteryreplacement/en/advisory-2007.html ). Q: You say that BL-5C is compatible with my gta02. Does that mean i can use that BL-5C-compatible bat i bought for a buck from a bum? A: You bet, go ahead. Charging Q: My battery charges to 100% but then charging stops and the battery keeps discharging, wtf? A: LiIon batteries don't like to be kept fully charged, so the charger stops as soon as charging current becomes less than threshold. If you have GSM on it will discharge the battery. Q: But why doesn't it ever stop charging on my device? A: The GSM modem is connected directly to the battery terminals so if it's active, charger will think it's still charging the battery and won't turn off unless GSM becomes inactive. The default threshold is about 16mA, the latest Qi increases the threshold to ~32mA. Is this true for gta02 deevices only or it's the same for gta01? Q: Does it mean if i leave my phone plugged it will eventually fully discharge the battery? A: On gta02 the charger will restart the charge automatically once the battery voltage reaches ~4V which corresponds to ~76%. Not sure about gta01, requires more investigation. :-/ Q: Ok, how to make sure my battery is fully charged before a long trip? A: Replug the charger, it will trigger charging no matter what the current capacity is. Q: My power/aux LED indicates charging/discharging/whatever, what does that mean (aka why it's still blue even after i unplugged the charger)? A: Ask FSO guys about it, some of them think that the user shouldn't really know what's happening and therefore they do some special mangling of status sysfs node before presenting it to the user. If you want to make a decent bugreport please add clear steps to reproduce and
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Paul Fertser fercer...@gmail.com writes: Q: I have several compatible batteries. What are the storage requirements for them? A: Keep in a dry cool place charged to no more than 75%. My new gta02 battery shows capacity of 0% when I plug it in and starts to slowly charge. Is it better to charge it to ~40% than to keep it at 0%? Could the capacity measurement get confused during long storage? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Timo Juhani Lindfors timo.lindf...@iki.fi writes: Could the capacity measurement get confused during long storage? Answering to myself here: When I charged the battery capacity increased steadily but when it reached 67% it suddenly jumped to 100% in one minute. I think this concludes that the capacity reported by Linux is not always correct. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
On Monday 03 August 2009, Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote: Timo Juhani Lindfors timo.lindf...@iki.fi writes: Could the capacity measurement get confused during long storage? Answering to myself here: When I charged the battery capacity increased steadily but when it reached 67% it suddenly jumped to 100% in one minute. I think this concludes that the capacity reported by Linux is not always correct. Where exactly is this figure from? Are you looking at the battery monitor sysfs entry, or something that gets the incorrect figure from hal? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Hi, This is a text version of the wikipage [1], feel free to ask new questions there on the talk page. Discussion on this ML is also appreciated (and in fact i'm more comfortable with ML than the wiki). Openmoko devices Battery questions and answers NB: Some of the described behaviour depends on the kernel, the relevant code was pushed on 02 Aug to andy-tracking Hardware capabilities Q: What batteries can be used with gta01 and gta02? A: Original OM gta01, gta02, Nokia BL-5C, BL-6C and compatibles. Q: Do other BL-5/6C compatible batteries fit? A: If the battery is thicker than BL-6C, you won't be able to close the back cover. Q: What is the difference between all those types? A: Capacity: gta01, gta02- 1200 mAh BL-5C old (newer/new) - 850 (970/1050) mAh BL-6C - 1150 mAh Temperature control: gta01, BL-5C, BL-6C - thermistor gta02 - bq27000 Special features: gta02 - accurate and sophisticated reporting of capacity, time_to_full, time_to_empty, temperature and battery current during both charge and discharge thanks to bq27000 (aka Coloumb Counter) Q: What are hardware capabilities of gta01 and gta02 with regard to battery management? A: gta01: charging all battery types, measuring temperature with battery-integrated thermistor (currently charging and measuring temperature for non-gta01 batteries doesn't work due to the kernel driver issues but it's software limitation), measuring battery output voltage, very inaccurate and noisy measuring of battery current gta02: charging all battery types, measuring battery output voltage, communicating with bq27000 Q: Can nokia phones use/charge gta01/gta02 batteries? A: gta01 and gta02 batteries will fit wherever BL-6C fits but they can't be charged in nokia phones unless you isolate the middle pin from the battery and connect a resistor of ~50k (actual measured value on a cold (25C) battery is 75k, on a slightly warm battery - 82k) from it to the ground (to fake a thermistor presence). Q: Can third-party chargers charge gta01/gta02 batteries? A: The good ones will most probably require the same trick needed for nokia phones. More cheaper ones are more likely to ignore thermistor absence. Q: I have several compatible batteries. What are the storage requirements for them? A: Keep in a dry cool place charged to no more than 75%. Safety issues Q: Do OM devices control temperature to stop charging if the battery gets too hot? A: No (probably gta01 does, need to check). Q: Isn't it dangerous? A: No, since all batteries (not raw cells!) have an integrated protection circuits. Q: Can i use that fancy 2800 mAh BL-5C-compatible battery i saw on ebay? A: Unless you want an explosion in your pocket i wouldn't recommend using any battery that is not produced by a reputable vendor and widely tested. And even reputable vendors make mistakes, nokia once had to recall 46 million batteries manufactured by Matsushita ( http://batteryreplacement.nokia.com/batteryreplacement/en/advisory-2007.html ). Q: You say that BL-5C is compatible with my gta02. Does that mean i can use that BL-5C-compatible bat i bought for a buck from a bum? A: You bet, go ahead. Charging Q: My battery charges to 100% but then charging stops and the battery keeps discharging, wtf? A: LiIon batteries don't like to be kept fully charged, so the charger stops as soon as charging current becomes less than threshold. If you have GSM on it will discharge the battery. Q: But why doesn't it ever stop charging on my device? A: The GSM modem is connected directly to the battery terminals so if it's active, charger will think it's still charging the battery and won't turn off unless GSM becomes inactive. The default threshold is about 16mA, the latest Qi increases the threshold to ~32mA. Q: Does it mean if i leave my phone plugged it will eventually fully discharge the battery? A: On gta02 the charger will restart the charge automatically once the battery voltage reaches ~4V which corresponds to ~76%. Not sure about gta01, requires more investigation. :-/ Q: Ok, how to make sure my battery is fully charged before a long trip? A: Replug the charger, it will trigger charging no matter what the current capacity is. Q: My power/aux LED indicates charging/discharging/whatever, what does that mean (aka why it's still blue even after i unplugged the charger)? A: Ask FSO guys about it, some of them think that the user shouldn't really know what's happening and therefore they do some special mangling of status sysfs node before presenting it to the user. If you want to make a decent bugreport please add clear steps to reproduce and /sys/class/power_supply/battery/uevent contents for all relevant states. Using compatible batteries with gta02 Q: So, how do i use dumb batteries with my freerunner? A: First you need to unbind bq27000 driver: echo bq27000-battery.0 /sys/bus/platform/drivers/bq27000-battery/unbind Then you load the dumb battery driver:
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Paul Joerg, this is an excellent document, obviously I cannot spot anything wrong! I didn't know that some external chargers would not charge gta01 or gta02 batteries because of the thermistor check you are writing about. All the cheap external chargers we bought in Taiwan or China for testing can charge both gta01 or gta02 batteries without a problem. I have a question for all: We will ship our first NanoNote with a BL-4C compatible battery, without Coulomb counter (middle pin unused) [1]. How are people really using the Coulomb counter in gta02? Theoretically I would think that it provides far superior power measurement options for actual software development, just as you write. For example when playing with power saving codes, whether in the kernel, middleware or applications, I would think over the course of several hours or days the Coulomb counter data is the primary means for efficient development. So we are considering shipping the next version of the NanoNote with Coulomb counter batteries same as the Neo FreeRunner. But if nobody is actually using the data from the Coulomb counter, then it's a wasted effort. What do you think? Was the addition of the Coulomb counter in gta02 really a useful thing? Did FSO developers or kernel developers use the data for power optimizations? Thanks, Wolfgang [1] http://www.qi-hardware.com/products/ben-nanonote On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 09:07:39PM +0400, Paul Fertser wrote: Hi, This is a text version of the wikipage [1], feel free to ask new questions there on the talk page. Discussion on this ML is also appreciated (and in fact i'm more comfortable with ML than the wiki). Openmoko devices Battery questions and answers NB: Some of the described behaviour depends on the kernel, the relevant code was pushed on 02 Aug to andy-tracking Hardware capabilities Q: What batteries can be used with gta01 and gta02? A: Original OM gta01, gta02, Nokia BL-5C, BL-6C and compatibles. Q: Do other BL-5/6C compatible batteries fit? A: If the battery is thicker than BL-6C, you won't be able to close the back cover. Q: What is the difference between all those types? A: Capacity: gta01, gta02 - 1200 mAh BL-5C old (newer/new) - 850 (970/1050) mAh BL-6C - 1150 mAh Temperature control: gta01, BL-5C, BL-6C - thermistor gta02 - bq27000 Special features: gta02 - accurate and sophisticated reporting of capacity, time_to_full, time_to_empty, temperature and battery current during both charge and discharge thanks to bq27000 (aka Coloumb Counter) Q: What are hardware capabilities of gta01 and gta02 with regard to battery management? A: gta01: charging all battery types, measuring temperature with battery-integrated thermistor (currently charging and measuring temperature for non-gta01 batteries doesn't work due to the kernel driver issues but it's software limitation), measuring battery output voltage, very inaccurate and noisy measuring of battery current gta02: charging all battery types, measuring battery output voltage, communicating with bq27000 Q: Can nokia phones use/charge gta01/gta02 batteries? A: gta01 and gta02 batteries will fit wherever BL-6C fits but they can't be charged in nokia phones unless you isolate the middle pin from the battery and connect a resistor of ~50k (actual measured value on a cold (25C) battery is 75k, on a slightly warm battery - 82k) from it to the ground (to fake a thermistor presence). Q: Can third-party chargers charge gta01/gta02 batteries? A: The good ones will most probably require the same trick needed for nokia phones. More cheaper ones are more likely to ignore thermistor absence. Q: I have several compatible batteries. What are the storage requirements for them? A: Keep in a dry cool place charged to no more than 75%. Safety issues Q: Do OM devices control temperature to stop charging if the battery gets too hot? A: No (probably gta01 does, need to check). Q: Isn't it dangerous? A: No, since all batteries (not raw cells!) have an integrated protection circuits. Q: Can i use that fancy 2800 mAh BL-5C-compatible battery i saw on ebay? A: Unless you want an explosion in your pocket i wouldn't recommend using any battery that is not produced by a reputable vendor and widely tested. And even reputable vendors make mistakes, nokia once had to recall 46 million batteries manufactured by Matsushita ( http://batteryreplacement.nokia.com/batteryreplacement/en/advisory-2007.html ). Q: You say that BL-5C is compatible with my gta02. Does that mean i can use that BL-5C-compatible bat i bought for a buck from a bum? A: You bet, go ahead. Charging Q: My battery charges to 100% but then charging stops and the battery keeps discharging, wtf? A: LiIon batteries don't like to be kept fully charged, so the charger stops as soon as charging current becomes less than threshold. If you have GSM on
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@qi-hardware.com writes: this is an excellent document, obviously I cannot spot anything wrong! Thanks for you kind words. :) I didn't know that some external chargers would not charge gta01 or gta02 batteries because of the thermistor check you are writing about. I'm not sure i saw any charger like that myself or seen reports (except on our wiki). But i suspect the probability of that for nokia brand charges is quite high. All the cheap external chargers we bought in Taiwan or China for testing can charge both gta01 or gta02 batteries without a problem. Proves my point :D I have a question for all: We will ship our first NanoNote with a BL-4C compatible battery, without Coulomb counter (middle pin unused) [1]. Hm, can BL-5C fit there? Because it'd be much nicer as modern 5Cs have quite some capacity. How are people really using the Coulomb counter in gta02? Theoretically I would think that it provides far superior power measurement options for actual software development, just as you write. For example when playing with power saving codes, whether in the kernel, middleware or applications, I would think over the course of several hours or days the Coulomb counter data is the primary means for efficient development. To me it seems that CC readings are almost unused except for presenting the user with a bit more accurate capacity data. And when someone is developing something lowlevel he could as well connect and external ampmeter, much more reliable and flexible approach. So we are considering shipping the next version of the NanoNote with Coulomb counter batteries same as the Neo FreeRunner. But if nobody is actually using the data from the Coulomb counter, then it's a wasted effort. I'm not sure you'll get much for using CC. The only problem so far with using a dumb battery on FR is that there's no way to know the current from inside the device. On gta01 there's a resistor shunt supposed to be used to measure the current but readings are too noisy to be useable. So if you have a good way to measure current already i'd not go for CC. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Paul, We will ship our first NanoNote with a BL-4C compatible battery, without Coulomb counter (middle pin unused) [1]. Hm, can BL-5C fit there? Because it'd be much nicer as modern 5Cs have quite some capacity. It fits, but it's a bit too thick so it's hard to close the battery cover with a BL-5C (or gta02 battery) inside. Not recommended. The only problem so far with using a dumb battery on FR is that there's no way to know the current from inside the device. On gta01 there's a resistor shunt supposed to be used to measure the current but readings are too noisy to be useable. So if you have a good way to measure current already i'd not go for CC. Hmm, that's a pretty strong statement. At Openmoko we spent _a lot_ of money combined to get this CC thing to work. The theory was that you have it in most notebook batteries so it's 'a good thing to have'. But if it's not actually used, then it would be one of those many things we did that should have been better thought through. I will check with Adam about precise current measurements for the NanoNote, and still I would appreciate any feedback from other people who are using the CC data for something other than proving that we have it :-) Any Coulomb fans out there? Wolfgang On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 10:02:42PM +0400, Paul Fertser wrote: Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@qi-hardware.com writes: this is an excellent document, obviously I cannot spot anything wrong! Thanks for you kind words. :) I didn't know that some external chargers would not charge gta01 or gta02 batteries because of the thermistor check you are writing about. I'm not sure i saw any charger like that myself or seen reports (except on our wiki). But i suspect the probability of that for nokia brand charges is quite high. All the cheap external chargers we bought in Taiwan or China for testing can charge both gta01 or gta02 batteries without a problem. Proves my point :D I have a question for all: We will ship our first NanoNote with a BL-4C compatible battery, without Coulomb counter (middle pin unused) [1]. Hm, can BL-5C fit there? Because it'd be much nicer as modern 5Cs have quite some capacity. How are people really using the Coulomb counter in gta02? Theoretically I would think that it provides far superior power measurement options for actual software development, just as you write. For example when playing with power saving codes, whether in the kernel, middleware or applications, I would think over the course of several hours or days the Coulomb counter data is the primary means for efficient development. To me it seems that CC readings are almost unused except for presenting the user with a bit more accurate capacity data. And when someone is developing something lowlevel he could as well connect and external ampmeter, much more reliable and flexible approach. So we are considering shipping the next version of the NanoNote with Coulomb counter batteries same as the Neo FreeRunner. But if nobody is actually using the data from the Coulomb counter, then it's a wasted effort. I'm not sure you'll get much for using CC. The only problem so far with using a dumb battery on FR is that there's no way to know the current from inside the device. On gta01 there's a resistor shunt supposed to be used to measure the current but readings are too noisy to be useable. So if you have a good way to measure current already i'd not go for CC. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@qi-hardware.com writes: We will ship our first NanoNote with a BL-4C compatible battery, without Coulomb counter (middle pin unused) [1]. Hm, can BL-5C fit there? Because it'd be much nicer as modern 5Cs have quite some capacity. It fits, but it's a bit too thick so it's hard to close the battery cover with a BL-5C (or gta02 battery) inside. Not recommended. gta02 battery is really thicker (~1mm) than BL-5C. It's BL-6C that is the same thickness as gta02 battery. The only problem so far with using a dumb battery on FR is that there's no way to know the current from inside the device. On gta01 there's a resistor shunt supposed to be used to measure the current but readings are too noisy to be useable. So if you have a good way to measure current already i'd not go for CC. Hmm, that's a pretty strong statement. At Openmoko we spent _a lot_ of money combined to get this CC thing to work. The theory was that you have it in most notebook batteries so it's 'a good thing to have'. You know, my notebook (Acer travelmate) has those advanced battery readings. But it didn't help it to not fuck up my battery completely while i constantly kept it connected to AC. The charging is not kernel controlled (probably there're some ACPI functions for that but who knows that shit...). So for me what matters is not advanced metering, for me it's proper battery charging management, i want my battery to last long. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
2009/8/2 Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@qi-hardware.com Hmm, that's a pretty strong statement. At Openmoko we spent _a lot_ of money combined to get this CC thing to work. The theory was that you have it in most notebook batteries so it's 'a good thing to have'. But if it's not actually used, then it would be one of those many things we did that should have been better thought through. No, I think it was a very good decision. Not only low-level programmers need it, but also normal* users who want to know how long the battery lasts with certain configurations. I know for example that with gsm on it lasts about 50h in suspend, with gsm off about 100h, and with gps on about 8h without suspend, etc. And I could estimate this accurately overnight, and not by waiting 4 days. On the other hand, I have absolutely no idea how long my motorola battery lasts. It usually shows full for a few days and then drops really quickly. *if you can call FR users normal users ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Michal Brzozowski ruso...@poczta.fm writes: 2009/8/2 Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@qi-hardware.com Hmm, that's a pretty strong statement. At Openmoko we spent _a lot_ of money combined to get this CC thing to work. The theory was that you have it in most notebook batteries so it's 'a good thing to have'. But if it's not actually used, then it would be one of those many things we did that should have been better thought through. No, I think it was a very good decision. Not only low-level programmers need it, but also normal* users who want to know how long the battery lasts with certain configurations. I know for example that with gsm on it lasts about 50h in suspend, with gsm off about 100h Hm, there's probably something very wrong with your config, no? With GSM on in suspend it should last for 140 hrs and with off it should be even more. Hm, so basically your point is that CC allows current measurement in suspend. Ok, but if there're convenient TPs you can use your DMM to do the same as well. Also you can do that by connecting the device via DMM to a lab PSU or a pack of AA batteries. Moreover, there's quite a limited number of usecases (wrt power-management) so those who has some EE skills can do the measurements once and then share the info for everybody. Wolfgang, please consider making current measurement in suspend easy. :) -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Hm, there's probably something very wrong with your config, no? what config? With GSM on in suspend it should last for 140 hrs only when deep sleep is usable. the only time i ever heard of 140h suspend were the mail from daniel willmann after he applied a hw fix to #1024. my fr suffers from #1024 and thus has to be set deep sleep never -- which means about 50hrs in suspend. with deep sleep adaptive it works up all the time, which means a suspend time far less. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Paul, one more thing... To me it seems that CC readings are almost unused except for presenting the user with a bit more accurate capacity data. And when someone is developing something lowlevel he could as well connect and external ampmeter, much more reliable and flexible approach. This is where I'm not so sure. Also see Michal Brzozowki's mail. I think real power consumption improvements in software can only be made if it's throughout the whole stack, from kernel to middleware to apps. I don't think you can optimize real system power consumption in the kernel alone, where the kernel knows or correctly predicts all sorts of middleware or app behavior. So of course you first want the kernel situation, and charging, to be robust and cover all cases. But then it should go on. And I don't think we should assume every software developer has an ampmeter. There are lots of application developers that could do valuable work if they would get speedy and accurate readings on how much energy was consumed in the last 5 minutes, 20 minutes, 2 hours, etc. Now, if an accurate way to measure the current in the device solves 80% of that as well, then the (big) extra cost of supporting CC batteries is not worth it. So for me it all comes down to precision. Is it possible to build a cheap and accurate way to measure current in the device? For the NanoNotes, I will look into this first. If it's possible, this may be all it needs to support application developers doing power consumption work. If it's not possible, I think CC is good - I don't want to make the assumption that you have to have an ampmeter to be able to do power consumption work. Feedback very appreciated. Wolfgang On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 10:02:42PM +0400, Paul Fertser wrote: Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@qi-hardware.com writes: this is an excellent document, obviously I cannot spot anything wrong! Thanks for you kind words. :) I didn't know that some external chargers would not charge gta01 or gta02 batteries because of the thermistor check you are writing about. I'm not sure i saw any charger like that myself or seen reports (except on our wiki). But i suspect the probability of that for nokia brand charges is quite high. All the cheap external chargers we bought in Taiwan or China for testing can charge both gta01 or gta02 batteries without a problem. Proves my point :D I have a question for all: We will ship our first NanoNote with a BL-4C compatible battery, without Coulomb counter (middle pin unused) [1]. Hm, can BL-5C fit there? Because it'd be much nicer as modern 5Cs have quite some capacity. How are people really using the Coulomb counter in gta02? Theoretically I would think that it provides far superior power measurement options for actual software development, just as you write. For example when playing with power saving codes, whether in the kernel, middleware or applications, I would think over the course of several hours or days the Coulomb counter data is the primary means for efficient development. To me it seems that CC readings are almost unused except for presenting the user with a bit more accurate capacity data. And when someone is developing something lowlevel he could as well connect and external ampmeter, much more reliable and flexible approach. So we are considering shipping the next version of the NanoNote with Coulomb counter batteries same as the Neo FreeRunner. But if nobody is actually using the data from the Coulomb counter, then it's a wasted effort. I'm not sure you'll get much for using CC. The only problem so far with using a dumb battery on FR is that there's no way to know the current from inside the device. On gta01 there's a resistor shunt supposed to be used to measure the current but readings are too noisy to be useable. So if you have a good way to measure current already i'd not go for CC. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de writes: Hm, there's probably something very wrong with your config, no? what config? Probably deep sleep disabled :) With GSM on in suspend it should last for 140 hrs only when deep sleep is usable. Sure. And with deep sleep disabled it should still be ~70hrs, there're some logs from Mickey proving that. the only time i ever heard of 140h suspend were the mail from daniel willmann after he applied a hw fix to #1024. Yes, exactly. But fixing is fairly trivial, the soldering part is in fact easier than the buzz fix. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Paul, Wolfgang, please consider making current measurement in suspend easy. :) Yeah - I thought that's what we were talking about :-) I'm not sure about your TP/DMM/EE advice. Isn't the Coulomb counter the perfect way to make precise data available to everybody? That was the point I was trying to get to. If not CC, what are the alternatives? Test points don't sound right to me. Precise current measurements maybe, but only if they are precise enough and can really serve the same purpose as the CC. Wolfgang On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 11:05:18PM +0400, Paul Fertser wrote: Michal Brzozowski ruso...@poczta.fm writes: 2009/8/2 Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@qi-hardware.com Hmm, that's a pretty strong statement. At Openmoko we spent _a lot_ of money combined to get this CC thing to work. The theory was that you have it in most notebook batteries so it's 'a good thing to have'. But if it's not actually used, then it would be one of those many things we did that should have been better thought through. No, I think it was a very good decision. Not only low-level programmers need it, but also normal* users who want to know how long the battery lasts with certain configurations. I know for example that with gsm on it lasts about 50h in suspend, with gsm off about 100h Hm, there's probably something very wrong with your config, no? With GSM on in suspend it should last for 140 hrs and with off it should be even more. Hm, so basically your point is that CC allows current measurement in suspend. Ok, but if there're convenient TPs you can use your DMM to do the same as well. Also you can do that by connecting the device via DMM to a lab PSU or a pack of AA batteries. Moreover, there's quite a limited number of usecases (wrt power-management) so those who has some EE skills can do the measurements once and then share the info for everybody. Wolfgang, please consider making current measurement in suspend easy. :) -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
2009/8/2 Paul Fertser fercer...@gmail.com Michal Brzozowski ruso...@poczta.fm writes: 2009/8/2 Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@qi-hardware.com Hmm, that's a pretty strong statement. At Openmoko we spent _a lot_ of money combined to get this CC thing to work. The theory was that you have it in most notebook batteries so it's 'a good thing to have'. But if it's not actually used, then it would be one of those many things we did that should have been better thought through. No, I think it was a very good decision. Not only low-level programmers need it, but also normal* users who want to know how long the battery lasts with certain configurations. I know for example that with gsm on it lasts about 50h in suspend, with gsm off about 100h Hm, there's probably something very wrong with your config, no? With GSM on in suspend it should last for 140 hrs and with off it should be even more. Really? Isn't that with deep sleep on? Hm, so basically your point is that CC allows current measurement in suspend. Ok, but if there're convenient TPs you can use your DMM to do the same as well. Also you can do that by connecting the device via DMM to a lab PSU or a pack of AA batteries. Moreover, there's quite a limited number of usecases (wrt power-management) so those who has some EE skills can do the measurements once and then share the info for everybody. Paul, of all those acronyms I only understand AA batteries. I said I'm a normal user :-) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Yes, exactly. But fixing is fairly trivial, the soldering part is in fact easier than the buzz fix. well, i sincerely hop, someone steps up and offers that kind of fix. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@qi-hardware.com writes: To me it seems that CC readings are almost unused except for presenting the user with a bit more accurate capacity data. And when someone is developing something lowlevel he could as well connect and external ampmeter, much more reliable and flexible approach. Now, if an accurate way to measure the current in the device solves 80% of that as well, then the (big) extra cost of supporting CC batteries is not worth it. Yes, i think that's the case. The only state where integrated power measurement readings are unavailable is suspend and that's quite low level already. So for me it all comes down to precision. Is it possible to build a cheap and accurate way to measure current in the device? bq27000 measures current accurately so it should be possible. I'm sure there's some decent IC suitable for your task. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Michal Brzozowski ruso...@poczta.fm writes: With GSM on in suspend it should last for 140 hrs and with off it should be even more. Really? Isn't that with deep sleep on? Sure. Paul, of all those acronyms I only understand AA batteries. I said I'm a normal user :-) ROTFL -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@qi-hardware.com writes: Wolfgang, please consider making current measurement in suspend easy. :) Yeah - I thought that's what we were talking about :-) I'm not sure about your TP/DMM/EE advice. Hm, if the TPs are easily reachable i'd say that measuring voltage over them is fairly easy. I don't think the guys working on suspend consumption issues would need more. Also the kind of battery receptable for BL-5C is very convenient to hook up an external PSU to (even without soldering) so that's not really a problem as well. Isn't the Coulomb counter the perfect way to make precise data available to everybody? That was the point I was trying to get to. The question is if in fact everybody needs precise data. Gta02 shows that's not the case, at least that's how i see it. Both for end-users and for app developer. And for me personally battery accessibility (i can go to the nearest shop and buy a BL-6C in no time and for a fairly low price) is far more important than accurate readings. So let's wait and see what other folks say. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Paul, Yes, i think that's the case. The only state where integrated power measurement readings are unavailable is suspend and that's quite low level already. You could measure the current when you wake up, couldn't you? bq27000 measures current accurately so it should be possible. I'm sure there's some decent IC suitable for your task. bq27000 is a chip, right? You mean we should have that chip inside the device, instead of having it in every battery? That would make the batteries cheaper as well, I believe the CC batteries cost 2 USD or so more than without CC :-( Wolfgang On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 11:22:40PM +0400, Paul Fertser wrote: Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@qi-hardware.com writes: To me it seems that CC readings are almost unused except for presenting the user with a bit more accurate capacity data. And when someone is developing something lowlevel he could as well connect and external ampmeter, much more reliable and flexible approach. Now, if an accurate way to measure the current in the device solves 80% of that as well, then the (big) extra cost of supporting CC batteries is not worth it. Yes, i think that's the case. The only state where integrated power measurement readings are unavailable is suspend and that's quite low level already. So for me it all comes down to precision. Is it possible to build a cheap and accurate way to measure current in the device? bq27000 measures current accurately so it should be possible. I'm sure there's some decent IC suitable for your task. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
2009/8/2 Paul Fertser fercer...@gmail.com Sure. And with deep sleep disabled it should still be ~70hrs, there're some logs from Mickey proving that. Oh, interesting. Maybe it was on a pure console image? I tested this some time ago and I think that running X + enlightenment used more power on suspend, although it doesn't make sense to me. Anyway, I'm quite sure that a fresh SHR install with gsm on won't go for more than 50h in suspend on my phone. the only time i ever heard of 140h suspend were the mail from daniel willmann after he applied a hw fix to #1024. Yes, exactly. But fixing is fairly trivial, the soldering part is in fact easier than the buzz fix. When will 'normal' users be able to send in their phones to get this done? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Paul, And for me personally battery accessibility (i can go to the nearest shop and buy a BL-6C in no time and for a fairly low price) is far more important than accurate readings. Oh sure, totally agree with you. The question for me is only whether the device should support the 3rd pin on the battery connector. One could imagine that the device normally ships with regular (non-CC) batteries, but a SW developer interested in power consumption could use a CC battery. Hey, for the NanoNotes we wouldn't even need to make special batteries because the gat02 batteries fit, at least for development purposes (the battery cover doesn't really fit anymore as I said). So we could ship the device with the 3rd pin wired up, but without a CC battery in the package. The CC battery would be the tool of choice for power consumption work. Like you said, let's see whether someone else speaks up... Thanks for all your feedback so far, Wolfgang On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 11:30:45PM +0400, Paul Fertser wrote: Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@qi-hardware.com writes: Wolfgang, please consider making current measurement in suspend easy. :) Yeah - I thought that's what we were talking about :-) I'm not sure about your TP/DMM/EE advice. Hm, if the TPs are easily reachable i'd say that measuring voltage over them is fairly easy. I don't think the guys working on suspend consumption issues would need more. Also the kind of battery receptable for BL-5C is very convenient to hook up an external PSU to (even without soldering) so that's not really a problem as well. Isn't the Coulomb counter the perfect way to make precise data available to everybody? That was the point I was trying to get to. The question is if in fact everybody needs precise data. Gta02 shows that's not the case, at least that's how i see it. Both for end-users and for app developer. And for me personally battery accessibility (i can go to the nearest shop and buy a BL-6C in no time and for a fairly low price) is far more important than accurate readings. So let's wait and see what other folks say. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@qi-hardware.com writes: Yes, i think that's the case. The only state where integrated power measurement readings are unavailable is suspend and that's quite low level already. You could measure the current when you wake up, couldn't you? It's possible with bq27k because it works autonomously. But if you do something similar to gta01 there's no way to measure current in suspend without an external equipment. bq27000 measures current accurately so it should be possible. I'm sure there's some decent IC suitable for your task. bq27000 is a chip, right? You mean we should have that chip inside the device, instead of having it in every battery? It would be a possible solution but it doesn't make much sense because bq27k assumes it's connected to the same battery all the time. I meant that since bq27k manages to measure the current accurately, there should exist some other more simple IC (properly shielded to be immune to noise) to measure the current inside a device. Also the charger IC must know the current too, it's just that PCF50633 doesn't allow to read it for some reason :( There's also a possibility to use some other CC on device side, take a look at http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/bq27510-g1.html ( $1.6 ) That would make the batteries cheaper as well, I believe the CC batteries cost 2 USD or so more than without CC :-( And also special batteries are always harder to source for end-users. Especially if they're not located in EU or the USA. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Michal Brzozowski ruso...@poczta.fm writes: 2009/8/2 Paul Fertser fercer...@gmail.com Sure. And with deep sleep disabled it should still be ~70hrs, there're some logs from Mickey proving that. Oh, interesting. Maybe it was on a pure console image? I tested this some time ago and I think that running X + enlightenment used more power on suspend, although it doesn't make sense to me. Anyway, I'm quite sure that a fresh SHR install with gsm on won't go for more than 50h in suspend on my phone. Strange, needs investigations... the only time i ever heard of 140h suspend were the mail from daniel willmann after he applied a hw fix to #1024. Yes, exactly. But fixing is fairly trivial, the soldering part is in fact easier than the buzz fix. When will 'normal' users be able to send in their phones to get this done? Is Poland _that_ different from Russia? Here we have plenty of places where you can repair electronic equipment. Those guys have no difficulties desoldering and soldering a huge ;) (0805) cap. And quite acceptable prices too. Man, they do BGA rework, one 0805 part can't be hard for them! -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Paul, It's possible with bq27k because it works autonomously. But if you do something similar to gta01 there's no way to measure current in suspend without an external equipment. Can't you measure current before and after suspend, and knowing how long you were in suspend calculate energy consumption during suspend? Wolfgang On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 11:46:06PM +0400, Paul Fertser wrote: Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@qi-hardware.com writes: Yes, i think that's the case. The only state where integrated power measurement readings are unavailable is suspend and that's quite low level already. You could measure the current when you wake up, couldn't you? It's possible with bq27k because it works autonomously. But if you do something similar to gta01 there's no way to measure current in suspend without an external equipment. bq27000 measures current accurately so it should be possible. I'm sure there's some decent IC suitable for your task. bq27000 is a chip, right? You mean we should have that chip inside the device, instead of having it in every battery? It would be a possible solution but it doesn't make much sense because bq27k assumes it's connected to the same battery all the time. I meant that since bq27k manages to measure the current accurately, there should exist some other more simple IC (properly shielded to be immune to noise) to measure the current inside a device. Also the charger IC must know the current too, it's just that PCF50633 doesn't allow to read it for some reason :( There's also a possibility to use some other CC on device side, take a look at http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/bq27510-g1.html ( $1.6 ) That would make the batteries cheaper as well, I believe the CC batteries cost 2 USD or so more than without CC :-( And also special batteries are always harder to source for end-users. Especially if they're not located in EU or the USA. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Document with answers to most popular battery-related questions is ready
Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@qi-hardware.com writes: It's possible with bq27k because it works autonomously. But if you do something similar to gta01 there's no way to measure current in suspend without an external equipment. Can't you measure current before and after suspend, and knowing how long you were in suspend calculate energy consumption during suspend? You should certainly ask Joerg for a precise and qualified answer. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
