Re: Funding Global Domination Mk II The Console
(My apologies if this is a duplicate, I used a different sender address and it seems to have been greylisted or blocked or something) Hey Stroller, Stroller wrote: On 10 Dec 2008, at 01:02, roguem...@roguewrt.org wrote: Stroller wrote: For me, personally, a fully open-source ADSL router would be more compelling. Whilst you can do just about anything you want with iptables, most of us need a separate ADSL box of some sort [1]. Given any arbitrary ADSL router I'm sure I could find something about it I don't quite like, for some certain obscure configuration. The Wanadoo Livebox has, for instance, a USB port, which would allow you to run a print server on it or BitTorrent to an external hard-drive (like the Asus WL-700gE). But you can't because it's bleedin' closed. Out of curiosity, what's the main benefit in having a hackable ADSL router? Outside of consolidating router and modem? Consolidating router modem is good enough for me. :) I don't want the extra box cluttering up my trendy designer apartment *cough*. ~1x4x2 is hardly taking up a lot of space. One unit, two units, the corner of my apartment wouldn't look discernably different either way. I've always bridged and considered an ADSL modem to be a transparent device whilst using OpenWRT on routers to perform all required networking and authentication. I've never done that - it'll be the approach I take when I go ADSL2 (hopefully soon), but wasn't the obvious way to do things when I got my last router (perhaps as much as 6 years ago, now). I have to say, I don't entirely trust a cheap ADSL modem used in this way. I kinda feel that it adds another level of potential confusion troubleshooting for me, as an administrator. There's a problem with incoming packets being dropped - is it in the modem or the router? And the ADSL router must, as things stand, be closed source. I certainly see this as flawed compared to having the one device doing the whole job. And from a hardware point of view you're doubling everything in having separate ethernet router ADSL modem - I put the last in quotes because all the external ethernet ADSL modems I've seen contain enough hardware to do routing, they just have a crippled firmware. I agree for the most part and I'd definitely be happy to see an ADSL modem that _is_ open. From experience, even the cheapest modems have performed almost flawlessy when bridged. What problems I've encountered have nearly always been telco related. I admit that access to the modem at a lower level may enable me to diagnose this properly or harvest more detailed statistics but as it stands, aliasing a static IP on the wan interface to allow me to ssh and map the web management interface port locally does all I need, including rebooting the modem and/or router. Another 'from experience', a lot of ADSL/wireless/router combo units have been prone to heat issues due to the number of heat generating components. Although strapping a fan to the top has fixed the problem, I've avoided them as much as possible since. This may not be as much of a concern now with current offerings. Now if Openmoko were to create an OpenWRT compatible router with stupid amounts of storage space, awesome wireless range, a screaming CPU ... I'm not an expert on home ethernet routers - from my naive point of view there's little very new about that. OK, well ... from the home router consumer perspective, there'd be little benefit. But when you're knocking up wirless hotspots and multi-site VPNs, obtaining a consistent unit from a supplier can be a pain. Currently units vary greatly betwen models and even minor revisions. It's not uncommon to have to break warranty on day one by flashing the firmware or replacing the wireless module with something more linux appropriate. Without building your own, this is unavoidable. ... currently consumer routers (I use the Asus WL-500GP and WL-500W) are less than optimal, but do the job. Out of curiosity, could you give me a quick run-down of their failings? Warranty for intended use is the main one. Storage space would be second, with CPU speed coming third. Ideally, hardware that is based more around supported linux drivers would be good. Storage space quickly runs low when the maximum out there tends to be 32MB. I have a habit of using things that require quite a few libraries. tcpdump, nmap, openvpn and various other facilities. If you expand on that with asterix, transparent proxying, qos, smb redirection, blah blah ... then an external drives becomes mandatory. With all that processing (specifically asterix), a faster CPU would be useful, the WRTs tend to handle 4 simultaneous calls OK. Currently I tend to stick with ASUS, the wl-500w with three antenna seems to deliver at this point. I still have to switch out the broadcom module for an athereos one however (2.6 kernel related more so), if I want to be able to do site
openmoko as a ipv6 router - was Funding Global Domination Mk II The Console
It is possible to create your own router with a routerboard ... Now if Openmoko were to create an OpenWRT compatible router with stupid amounts of storage space, awesome wireless range, a screaming CPU Out of curiosity, what's the main benefit in having a hackable ADSL router? Outside of consolidating router and modem? hello openmoko peoples i like the idea and i am inclined to think that it must be possible with all the mobile ipv6 implementaions around. http://member.wide.ad.jp/tr/wide-tr-nautilus6-mobility-demo-thai-ipv6-summit-00.pdf http://www.mobileip.jp/ http://www.mobile-ipv6.org/ http://software.nautilus6.org/ Second question I would like to know if there is a DNS server implementation or something like bonjour / avahi available for openmoko ? thanks http://let.de -- IPv6 in Real World, the last step,Renumbering still needs work http://tinyurl.com/5njjsp IPv6-to-IPv6 Network Address Translation (NAT66) now somewhat out-of-date http://tinyurl.com/5suj7u UPTODATE- IETF 73 behave WG Presentation on NAT66 http://tinyurl.com/6g9ujn -- Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise). Please note that according to the German law on data retention, information on every electronic information exchange with me is retained for a period of six months. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: openmoko as a ipv6 router - was Funding Global Domination Mk II The Console
Marc Manthey wrote: Am 10.12.2008 um 13:15 schrieb Andreas Fischer: Marc Manthey wrote: Second question I would like to know if there is a DNS server implementation or something like bonjour / avahi available for openmoko ? [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# opkg list_installed | grep avahi libavahi-client3 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-common3 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-core5 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-glib1 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# This is on testing, but I remember seeing these packages on 2008.9, too. thanks Andreas can you try this , and tell me the result ? # dns-sd -B _ftp._tcp dns-sd.org Sure, if you tell me which of the following packages I should install to get the dns-sd command: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# opkg list | cut -d -f1 | grep avahi avahi avahi-autoipd avahi-daemon avahi-dbg avahi-dev avahi-discover avahi-discover-standalone avahi-dnsconfd avahi-doc avahi-locale-de avahi-utils libavahi-client3 libavahi-common3 libavahi-core5 libavahi-glib1 libavahi-gobject0 libavahi-ui pulseaudio-lib-avahi-wrap [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# Regards, Andreas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: openmoko as a ipv6 router - was Funding Global Domination Mk II The Console
I'm not sure how standalone avahi-discover-standalone is: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# opkg install avahi-discover-standalone Installing avahi-discover-standalone (0.6.22-r8.01) to root... Downloading http://downloads.openmoko.org/repository/testing/armv4t/avahi-discover-standalone_0.6.22-r8.01_armv4t.opk Configuring avahi-discover-standalone [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# a addgroup adduseralsamixer apmd ar assassin atinterface addressbookalsactlapmapp-restarter ash atdawk I'd really like to get some more out of it. I'll have to re-read the testing instructions and the part where you're told to remove avahi to improve boot speed. Joseph 2008/12/10 Marc Manthey [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Am 10.12.2008 um 13:59 schrieb Andreas Fischer: Marc Manthey wrote: Am 10.12.2008 um 13:15 schrieb Andreas Fischer: Marc Manthey wrote: Second question I would like to know if there is a DNS server implementation or something like bonjour / avahi available for openmoko ? [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# opkg list_installed | grep avahi libavahi-client3 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-common3 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-core5 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-glib1 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# This is on testing, but I remember seeing these packages on 2008.9, too. thanks Andreas can you try this , and tell me the result ? # dns-sd -B _ftp._tcp dns-sd.org Sure, if you tell me which of the following packages I should install to get the dns-sd command: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# opkg list | cut -d -f1 | grep avahi avahi avahi-autoipd avahi-daemon avahi-dbg avahi-dev avahi-discover avahi-discover-standalone avahi-dnsconfd avahi-doc avahi-locale-de avahi-utils libavahi-client3 libavahi-common3 libavahi-core5 libavahi-glib1 libavahi-gobject0 libavahi-ui pulseaudio-lib-avahi-wrap [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# wow , this is kind of rediculous for such a fuctionalliry isn´t it ? Are there any read me files where i can look for infos what the library does ? http://src.gnu-darwin.org/DarwinSourceArchive/expanded/mDNSResponder/mDNSResponder-87/mDNSShared/dnssd_clientshim.c Guess avahi-discover-standalone might be enough for browsing IMHO ? thanks marc -- Les Enfants Terribles - WWW.LET.DE Marc Manthey 50672 Köln - Germany Hildeboldplatz 1a Tel.:0049-221-3558032 Mobil:0049-1577-3329231 mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP/GnuPG: 0x1ac02f3296b12b4d jabber :[EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: #opencu freenode.net twitter: http://twitter.com/macbroadcast web: http://www.let.de Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise). Please note that according to the German law on data retention, information on every electronic information exchange with me is retained for a period of six months. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: openmoko as a ipv6 router - was Funding Global Domination Mk II The Console
Marc Manthey wrote: Guess avahi-discover-standalone might be enough for browsing IMHO ? I suppose the dns-sd command you gave me should return info on all FTP services within the dns-sd.org domain. I dabbled with avahi some time ago and if I remember correctly the command you are searching for is avahi-browse (which is included in the avahi-utils package). You'll easily find a manpage for it on the net. avahi-discover does the same thing, but with a GUI. I'm not sure about the functionality of the libraries, but I suppose you could also use either them or the avahi DBUS interface to achieve whatever you want (probably more efficient than doing everything on the commandline). Regards, Andreas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: openmoko as a ipv6 router - was Funding Global Domination Mk II The Console
Am 10.12.2008 um 14:38 schrieb Joseph Reeves: Configuring avahi-discover-standalone [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# a addgroup adduseralsamixer apmd ar assassin atinterface addressbookalsactlapmapp-restarter ash atdawk looks like the addressbook should be shared on .local now ? you should test from other device ? Marc Joseph 2008/12/10 Marc Manthey [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Am 10.12.2008 um 13:59 schrieb Andreas Fischer: Marc Manthey wrote: Am 10.12.2008 um 13:15 schrieb Andreas Fischer: Marc Manthey wrote: Second question I would like to know if there is a DNS server implementation or something like bonjour / avahi available for openmoko ? [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# opkg list_installed | grep avahi libavahi-client3 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-common3 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-core5 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-glib1 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# This is on testing, but I remember seeing these packages on 2008.9, too. thanks Andreas can you try this , and tell me the result ? # dns-sd -B _ftp._tcp dns-sd.org Sure, if you tell me which of the following packages I should install to get the dns-sd command: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# opkg list | cut -d -f1 | grep avahi avahi avahi-autoipd avahi-daemon avahi-dbg avahi-dev avahi-discover avahi-discover-standalone avahi-dnsconfd avahi-doc avahi-locale-de avahi-utils libavahi-client3 libavahi-common3 libavahi-core5 libavahi-glib1 libavahi-gobject0 libavahi-ui pulseaudio-lib-avahi-wrap [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# wow , this is kind of rediculous for such a fuctionalliry isn´t it ? Are there any read me files where i can look for infos what the library does ? http://src.gnu-darwin.org/DarwinSourceArchive/expanded/mDNSResponder/mDNSResponder-87/mDNSShared/dnssd_clientshim.c Guess avahi-discover-standalone might be enough for browsing IMHO ? thanks marc -- Les Enfants Terribles - WWW.LET.DE Marc Manthey 50672 Köln - Germany Hildeboldplatz 1a Tel.:0049-221-3558032 Mobil:0049-1577-3329231 mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP/GnuPG: 0x1ac02f3296b12b4d jabber :[EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: #opencu freenode.net twitter: http://twitter.com/macbroadcast web: http://www.let.de Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise). Please note that according to the German law on data retention, information on every electronic information exchange with me is retained for a period of six months. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Les Enfants Terribles - WWW.LET.DE Marc Manthey 50672 Köln - Germany Hildeboldplatz 1a Tel.:0049-221-3558032 Mobil:0049-1577-3329231 mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP/GnuPG: 0x1ac02f3296b12b4d jabber :[EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: #opencu freenode.net twitter: http://twitter.com/macbroadcast web: http://www.let.de Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise). Please note that according to the German law on data retention, information on every electronic information exchange with me is retained for a period of six months. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: openmoko as a ipv6 router - was Funding Global Domination Mk II The Console
Am 10.12.2008 um 13:59 schrieb Andreas Fischer: Marc Manthey wrote: Am 10.12.2008 um 13:15 schrieb Andreas Fischer: Marc Manthey wrote: Second question I would like to know if there is a DNS server implementation or something like bonjour / avahi available for openmoko ? [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# opkg list_installed | grep avahi libavahi-client3 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-common3 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-core5 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-glib1 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# This is on testing, but I remember seeing these packages on 2008.9, too. thanks Andreas can you try this , and tell me the result ? # dns-sd -B _ftp._tcp dns-sd.org Sure, if you tell me which of the following packages I should install to get the dns-sd command: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# opkg list | cut -d -f1 | grep avahi avahi avahi-autoipd avahi-daemon avahi-dbg avahi-dev avahi-discover avahi-discover-standalone avahi-dnsconfd avahi-doc avahi-locale-de avahi-utils libavahi-client3 libavahi-common3 libavahi-core5 libavahi-glib1 libavahi-gobject0 libavahi-ui pulseaudio-lib-avahi-wrap [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# wow , this is kind of rediculous for such a fuctionalliry isn´t it ? Are there any read me files where i can look for infos what the library does ? http://src.gnu-darwin.org/DarwinSourceArchive/expanded/mDNSResponder/mDNSResponder-87/mDNSShared/dnssd_clientshim.c Guess avahi-discover-standalone might be enough for browsing IMHO ? thanks marc -- Les Enfants Terribles - WWW.LET.DE Marc Manthey 50672 Köln - Germany Hildeboldplatz 1a Tel.:0049-221-3558032 Mobil:0049-1577-3329231 mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP/GnuPG: 0x1ac02f3296b12b4d jabber :[EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: #opencu freenode.net twitter: http://twitter.com/macbroadcast web: http://www.let.de Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise). Please note that according to the German law on data retention, information on every electronic information exchange with me is retained for a period of six months. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: openmoko as a ipv6 router - was Funding Global Domination Mk II The Console
Marc Manthey wrote: Second question I would like to know if there is a DNS server implementation or something like bonjour / avahi available for openmoko ? [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# opkg list_installed | grep avahi libavahi-client3 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-common3 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-core5 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-glib1 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# This is on testing, but I remember seeing these packages on 2008.9, too. Regards, Andreas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: openmoko as a ipv6 router - was Funding Global Domination Mk II The Console
Am 10.12.2008 um 13:15 schrieb Andreas Fischer: Marc Manthey wrote: Second question I would like to know if there is a DNS server implementation or something like bonjour / avahi available for openmoko ? [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# opkg list_installed | grep avahi libavahi-client3 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-common3 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-core5 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-glib1 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# This is on testing, but I remember seeing these packages on 2008.9, too. thanks Andreas can you try this , and tell me the result ? # dns-sd -B _ftp._tcp dns-sd.org thanks Marc -- Les Enfants Terribles - WWW.LET.DE Marc Manthey 50672 Köln - Germany Hildeboldplatz 1a Tel.:0049-221-3558032 Mobil:0049-1577-3329231 mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP/GnuPG: 0x1ac02f3296b12b4d jabber :[EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: #opencu freenode.net twitter: http://twitter.com/macbroadcast web: http://www.let.de Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise). Please note that according to the German law on data retention, information on every electronic information exchange with me is retained for a period of six months. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: openmoko as a ipv6 router - was Funding Global Domination Mk II The Console
From another FreeRunner running 2008.9: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# a addgroup adduseralsamixer apmd ar assassin atinterfaceavahi-daemon addressbookalsactlapmapp-restarter ash atdavahi-autoipd awk [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# 2008/12/10 Marc Manthey [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Am 10.12.2008 um 14:38 schrieb Joseph Reeves: Configuring avahi-discover-standalone [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# a addgroup adduseralsamixer apmd ar assassin atinterface addressbookalsactlapmapp-restarter ash atdawk looks like the addressbook should be shared on .local now ? you should test from other device ? Marc Joseph 2008/12/10 Marc Manthey [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Am 10.12.2008 um 13:59 schrieb Andreas Fischer: Marc Manthey wrote: Am 10.12.2008 um 13:15 schrieb Andreas Fischer: Marc Manthey wrote: Second question I would like to know if there is a DNS server implementation or something like bonjour / avahi available for openmoko ? [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# opkg list_installed | grep avahi libavahi-client3 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-common3 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-core5 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - libavahi-glib1 - 0.6.22-r8.01 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# This is on testing, but I remember seeing these packages on 2008.9, too. thanks Andreas can you try this , and tell me the result ? # dns-sd -B _ftp._tcp dns-sd.org Sure, if you tell me which of the following packages I should install to get the dns-sd command: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# opkg list | cut -d -f1 | grep avahi avahi avahi-autoipd avahi-daemon avahi-dbg avahi-dev avahi-discover avahi-discover-standalone avahi-dnsconfd avahi-doc avahi-locale-de avahi-utils libavahi-client3 libavahi-common3 libavahi-core5 libavahi-glib1 libavahi-gobject0 libavahi-ui pulseaudio-lib-avahi-wrap [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# wow , this is kind of rediculous for such a fuctionalliry isn´t it ? Are there any read me files where i can look for infos what the library does ? http://src.gnu-darwin.org/DarwinSourceArchive/expanded/mDNSResponder/mDNSResponder-87/mDNSShared/dnssd_clientshim.c Guess avahi-discover-standalone might be enough for browsing IMHO ? thanks marc -- Les Enfants Terribles - WWW.LET.DE Marc Manthey 50672 Köln - Germany Hildeboldplatz 1a Tel.:0049-221-3558032 Mobil:0049-1577-3329231 mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP/GnuPG: 0x1ac02f3296b12b4d jabber :[EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: #opencu freenode.net twitter: http://twitter.com/macbroadcast web: http://www.let.de Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise). Please note that according to the German law on data retention, information on every electronic information exchange with me is retained for a period of six months. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Les Enfants Terribles - WWW.LET.DE Marc Manthey 50672 Köln - Germany Hildeboldplatz 1a Tel.:0049-221-3558032 Mobil:0049-1577-3329231 mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP/GnuPG: 0x1ac02f3296b12b4d jabber :[EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: #opencu freenode.net twitter: http://twitter.com/macbroadcast web: http://www.let.de Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise). Please note that according to the German law on data retention, information on every electronic information exchange with me is retained for a period of six months. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Funding Global Domination Mk II The Console
On 10 Dec 2008, at 01:02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stroller wrote: For me, personally, a fully open-source ADSL router would be more compelling. Whilst you can do just about anything you want with iptables, most of us need a separate ADSL box of some sort [1]. Given any arbitrary ADSL router I'm sure I could find something about it I don't quite like, for some certain obscure configuration. The Wanadoo Livebox has, for instance, a USB port, which would allow you to run a print server on it or BitTorrent to an external hard-drive (like the Asus WL-700gE). But you can't because it's bleedin' closed. Out of curiosity, what's the main benefit in having a hackable ADSL router? Outside of consolidating router and modem? Consolidating router modem is good enough for me. :) I don't want the extra box cluttering up my trendy designer apartment *cough*. I've always bridged and considered an ADSL modem to be a transparent device whilst using OpenWRT on routers to perform all required networking and authentication. I've never done that - it'll be the approach I take when I go ADSL2 (hopefully soon), but wasn't the obvious way to do things when I got my last router (perhaps as much as 6 years ago, now). I have to say, I don't entirely trust a cheap ADSL modem used in this way. I kinda feel that it adds another level of potential confusion troubleshooting for me, as an administrator. There's a problem with incoming packets being dropped - is it in the modem or the router? And the ADSL router must, as things stand, be closed source. I certainly see this as flawed compared to having the one device doing the whole job. And from a hardware point of view you're doubling everything in having separate ethernet router ADSL modem - I put the last in quotes because all the external ethernet ADSL modems I've seen contain enough hardware to do routing, they just have a crippled firmware. Now if Openmoko were to create an OpenWRT compatible router with stupid amounts of storage space, awesome wireless range, a screaming CPU ... I'm not an expert on home ethernet routers - from my naive point of view there's little very new about that. ... currently consumer routers (I use the Asus WL-500GP and WL-500W) are less than optimal, but do the job. Out of curiosity, could you give me a quick run-down of their failings? TIA, Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Funding Global Domination Mk II The Console
On 8 Dec 2008, at 12:23, Arigead wrote: ... So you'd have a PC Motherboard, TV out don't know what standard. Do all modern TV's take the same digital connection all over the world? Then you'll have a TV in signal for recording TV. Again I've no idea if that would mean different hardware all over the world. Ethernet, USB, Remote control. Nice plastics. A few companies have toyed with the idea of producing Open Console but to my knowledge nobody has ever really done it well ... Hi there, I, too, have thought about what open hardware I'd like to see on the market. Regarding video players, I think a terrabyte of storage - or any hard- drive - is excessive for a front-end box, and what I'd really like to see is a small-front end unit which streams data from the hard-drives on a back-end server or NAS. I also think that - if you want just basically a PC with a disk-drive - one could probably just buy one from the host of all the options already out there (Apple MacMini / iTV, Asus Eee Box, various Mini-ITX form-factor machines). I also fear there's little unique selling point to OpenMoko getting involved with something that's just basically a PC - what's to stop people from using the same software on a repurposed PC? What's compelling about buying the hardware? I have, however, been using MediaTomb a little recently, which is software for the backend server to stream your music videos to a set- top device. Many player devices are supported, but mostly these are all completely closed, hardware boxes one buys off the shelf at PC World or BestBuy. I use the PS3 in my livingroom to playback from a directory of videos on the MediaTomb server, but the PS3 isn't a terribly good player, as its very fussy about codecs. Like so many other devices its playback software is closed source. The problem with silent video front ends is power vs noise. And the best front ends for MediaTomb have hardware decoding on board. But they're closed source: http://www.popcornhour.com/onlinestore/ So what I think would be idea would be for OpenMoko - or someone like them - to produce a low-power media box with hardware decoding, and open-source drivers for the video-accelerator chip. The Popcorn devices have such an accelerator, but did I mention they're closed- source? (VIA used to do CPUs c 1ghz with extra MPEG decoders, but they have been very late to the game with their open-source chrome drivers). I should add that complaints about the Popcorn are that its interface is slow clumsy - this is easily the sort of thing that users can fix if they have access to the sources, whilst someone-like-Openmoko can stay concentrated on low-level drivers - Openmoko's core competency - for the video hardware. I should add that a built-in TV tuner is undesirable - should it be for cable, satellite or terrestrial digital TV - but USB ports would allow the user to tuners as they wish. There are open-source drivers already available for a number of devices, so there's no need to waste resources on that. I have a Linux-based device here which also suffers from slowness general quirkiness. It is an IP-KVM for remote access. Mine is branded Addison-Hughes, but Peppercorn many other manufacturers sold very similar devices apparently based on the same software stack - the web- based GUI is very distinctive. I think the OEM of that was Taiwanese, but good luck getting any information about it, as they clearly only sold to people buying their video-capturing chipsets. My IP-KVM is a godsend, allowing me to work on multiple computers - reinstalling Windows for customers, for example - without needing a monitor for each one (and the space that would consume) and to do so without leaving the comfort of the chair at my main workstation. But it is, as I said, slow quirky: there is SO much that the open-source community could do to improve this device, but I don't even bother asking for sources because bitter experience has shown that most mainstream suppliers - basically anyone using Linux in their embedded devices unless they go out of their way to make it a marketing focus - will only provide the minimum sources they're legally required to. EDIT: I was about to add that there used to be an open-source project that had started working on this then died; I was sure that was the scenario 6 months ago, but I now find them successful! Well done! I shall be reading more after I hit send. http://okvm.sourceforge.net/kvmoverip.html http://www.opengear.com/ This bitter experience stemmed from trying to unlock the Wanadoo Livebox ADSL router to use it with another ISP. I managed to find a firmware file, run `strings` on it and discovered it uses Linux, but it transpired that the closed source `adsld` will reject any PPPoA logon entered in the GUI if it doesn't end in @wanadoo.com. This has been hacked, but freedom has been
Re: Funding Global Domination Mk II The Console
On Tuesday 09 December 2008, Stroller wrote: On 8 Dec 2008, at 12:23, Arigead wrote: ... So you'd have a PC Motherboard, TV out don't know what standard. Do all modern TV's take the same digital connection all over the world? Then you'll have a TV in signal for recording TV. Again I've no idea if that would mean different hardware all over the world. Ethernet, USB, Remote control. Nice plastics. A few companies have toyed with the idea of producing Open Console but to my knowledge nobody has ever really done it well ... Hi there, I, too, have thought about what open hardware I'd like to see on the market. [snip] The problem with silent video front ends is power vs noise. And the best front ends for MediaTomb have hardware decoding on board. But they're closed source: http://www.popcornhour.com/onlinestore/ So what I think would be idea would be for OpenMoko - or someone like them - to produce a low-power media box with hardware decoding, and open-source drivers for the video-accelerator chip. The Popcorn devices have such an accelerator, but did I mention they're closed- source? (VIA used to do CPUs c 1ghz with extra MPEG decoders, but they have been very late to the game with their open-source chrome drivers). The Neuros OSD2 is more or less what you're describing. It uses the Ti DaVinci which is closely related to the OMAP on the beagleboard. Development is in the open using OE, and the codecs can use the onboard DSP. The problem with it from my point of view is that it's not powerful enough to output 1080p. http://wiki.neurostechnology.com/index.php/OSD2.0_Development ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Funding Global Domination Mk II The Console
I was thinking that one possible area where an open platform is needed is The Console. For a open gaming platform you might want to look at http://openpandora.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Funding Global Domination Mk II The Console
On 9 Dec 2008, at 16:12, Al Johnson wrote: ... So what I think would be idea would be for OpenMoko - or someone like them - to produce a low-power media box with hardware decoding, and open-source drivers for the video-accelerator chip. The Popcorn devices have such an accelerator, but did I mention they're closed- source? (VIA used to do CPUs c 1ghz with extra MPEG decoders, but they have been very late to the game with their open-source chrome drivers). The Neuros OSD2 is more or less what you're describing. It uses the Ti DaVinci which is closely related to the OMAP on the beagleboard. Development is in the open using OE, and the codecs can use the onboard DSP. The problem with it from my point of view is that it's not powerful enough to output 1080p. http://wiki.neurostechnology.com/index.php/OSD2.0_Development Is it released yet? I seem to remember the original Neuros (??) looked really inviting until I realised it offered only composite output. Apparently CPU of the Popcorn Hour is only 290mhz (MIPS) but it uses the Sigma Designs SMP8635 chipset for graphics acceleration, as does the DuneHD player. As you'll have guessed from the name of the latter they both do HD - 1080p. Apparently the same accelerator is used in some Blu-Ray players. If the Neuros OSD2 doesn't do HD then there's clearly room for competition - to be better than it. But it may not, of course, be possible to get the Sigma Designs chips - or any other suitable ones - without NDA. For me, personally, a fully open-source ADSL router would be more compelling. Whilst you can do just about anything you want with iptables, most of us need a separate ADSL box of some sort [1]. Given any arbitrary ADSL router I'm sure I could find something about it I don't quite like, for some certain obscure configuration. The Wanadoo Livebox has, for instance, a USB port, which would allow you to run a print server on it or BitTorrent to an external hard-drive (like the Asus WL-700gE). But you can't because it's bleedin' closed. Stroller. [1] ADSL2 being unsupported by Sangoma's 518, and it makes for kinda a large, power-hungry box if you need a PCI slot in it anyway. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Funding Global Domination Mk II The Console
Stroller wrote: For me, personally, a fully open-source ADSL router would be more compelling. Whilst you can do just about anything you want with iptables, most of us need a separate ADSL box of some sort [1]. Given any arbitrary ADSL router I'm sure I could find something about it I don't quite like, for some certain obscure configuration. The Wanadoo Livebox has, for instance, a USB port, which would allow you to run a print server on it or BitTorrent to an external hard-drive (like the Asus WL-700gE). But you can't because it's bleedin' closed. Out of curiosity, what's the main benefit in having a hackable ADSL router? Outside of consolidating router and modem? I've always bridged and considered an ADSL modem to be a transparent device whilst using OpenWRT on routers to perform all required networking and authentication. OpenWRT supports a lot of hardware, with quite a few sporting USB. Webcams, printservers, fileservers (nfs or external hdd) and a lot more is possible. There's even people using usb modems controlled by the router (possibly 3G wirless or like but I didn't read too deep). Unless there is something at the lower level that can be altered ... maybe to facilitate QOS and latency etc ... I can't see any benefit. Now if Openmoko were to create an OpenWRT compatible router with stupid amounts of storage space, awesome wireless range, a screaming CPU and the ability to have persistent system time across reboots (syncing to internal ntp for openvpn to even start is kinda annoying and external syncing is not 100%)... I'd buy that :) ... currently consumer routers (I use the Asus WL-500GP and WL-500W) are less than optimal, but do the job. Potentially there could be some affiliation as I don't believe there is any specific 'OpenWRT' router. Mm the OpenmokoWRT *drool* Sarton ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Funding Global Domination Mk II The Console
2008/12/10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Potentially there could be some affiliation as I don't believe there is any specific 'OpenWRT' router. Mm the OpenmokoWRT *drool* I may be veering OT here, but Buffalo sell/sold a router with DDWRT pre-loaded. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Funding Global Domination Mk II The Console
Sam Kuper wrote: 2008/12/10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Potentially there could be some affiliation as I don't believe there is any specific 'OpenWRT' router. Mm the OpenmokoWRT *drool* I may be veering OT here, but Buffalo sell/sold a router with DDWRT pre-loaded. There are a few 'preloaded' openwrt based routers and derivitives. There is no official router however and certainly none with persistent system time that I know of :) Also, I'd say that openwrt or ddwrt was chosen to aquire an existing user base and to keep costs low while releasing a product capable of being configured by the least technical of end consumers. I'd be more inclined to want something that I can customise and rebrand, rather than something already branded, or requiring me to rip out what is already in place for something else. I'd be willing to bet the specifications are similar to existing consumer routers that can already run openwrt aswell. It is possible to create your own router with a routerboard ... but that's the space I'm suggesting to occupy, forget the software functionality (something om is pretty good at :P ... sorry ... bit harsh). It's more or less about choosing the best parts and hardware layout and config than it is about preloading openwrt. Sound familiar? :) Sarton ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Funding Global Domination Mk II The Console
Sorry about this but I had another thought on this subject after the T-Shirt thread. This one might be a bit less easy ;-) Hats off to OM for producing Open Hardware for programmers to create their ideas on. It's has been a noble effort and I hope it continues. I was thinking that the choice of Open Platform (Mobile Phone) was perhaps one of the most difficult choices that they could have made as very little Open software existed out there when they started. There are a lot of imaginative people in the community and in the fullness of time this is going to be brilliant. I was thinking that one possible area where an open platform is needed is The Console. I've heard of a lot of people getting the original Microsoft xBox to hack it so that they can run unsigned code in the box. They then run XBMC in it. It seems such a shame that you have to buy a M$ games console to run an open source Media Centre. Along the same lines a few years ago I spent months trying get MythTV running in an old Desktop to enable me to record TV. What can I say I never quite made it. Now to my knowledge the original xBox was not too far removed from a regular PC in nice plastics. It had TV out instead of a regular monitor connection. That is perhaps an an area of difficulty as perhaps different countries run different TV protocols. Anyhow some day I'd like to put together some hardware that could run MythTV, XBMC maybe have a huge Terabyte of storage and act as a file server as well. Maybe it could run Linux games as well and various emulators. Yes what Linux games ;-) So you'd have a PC Motherboard, TV out don't know what standard. Do all modern TV's take the same digital connection all over the world? Then you'll have a TV in signal for recording TV. Again I've no idea if that would mean different hardware all over the world. Ethernet, USB, Remote control. Nice plastics. A few companies have toyed with the idea of producing Open Console but to my knowledge nobody has ever really done it well. Yes there are various communities out there and that if anything shows that there has always been this need. The last thing I'd want is for OM to dilute their effort on the FR but maybe someday they could become the name in OpenHardware. OpenMoko Purveyors of OpenHardware since the start of the new millennium ;-) Maybe I should join the Open Game Console Consortium and get some hardware specs and put my own console together that might take some time so if OM beat me to it I'll certainly buy their kit again. Later ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
