Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
Steve wrote: Ian Stirling wrote: I would like to see a bare GTA01 board being available - even after GTA02 becomes available. snip Looking at the Photos of the current version, the processor appears to be BGA. That'll make some things a bit hard. It'd be really nice if FIC routed any unused pins out from under the chip for us, *if* they have the board real estate for it. That'd be GTA01v5 or something. If they are making an actual new PCB, there are many interesting options. Personally, I'd like the ports that will be used for the wifi card in GTA02 brought out to a header to which a full-sized SD card can be connected. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
Harald Welte wrote: On Sun, Jul 29, 2007 at 03:07:44PM -0400, Kyle Bassett wrote: Harald, I am curious, what do you estimate the cost (as a percentage or dollar amount) that the GTA02 board kit would run compared to the expected $450 base price? I do prefer your idea about selling the GTA01Bv4 instead of upgrading...some people would just rather do it themselves...bragging rights? ;) I'd expect that upgrade kit would have to be at least 350USD. So as long as you can sell the GTA01 for more than 100USD, it should be better to do so. Also, given the low quantities we run at this time, it would really hurt us to see that many GTA01 going to the junkyard. If the old ones get sold, we increase the population of Neo's. If we take them apart and re-use, we don't get more devices deployed.. On a related topic. I would like to see a bare GTA01 board being available - even after GTA02 becomes available. Low-power, small board with GSM, USB, and even a parallel LCD connector that may be suitable to some other displays. I haven't seen anything at a similar price-point - say $200? This would be a bare board in a cardboard box, in an anti-static bag. Absolutely nothing else. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
Ian Stirling wrote: I would like to see a bare GTA01 board being available - even after GTA02 becomes available. There was some previous mention of available parts. I'd like to be able to buy the plastic case. That way I would have the option of possibly doing a little hardware hacking along with case modding, but still have the option to go back to the stock case. Looking at the Photos of the current version, the processor appears to be BGA. That'll make some things a bit hard. It'd be really nice if FIC routed any unused pins out from under the chip for us, *if* they have the board real estate for it. There's still a lot of interesting things that could be done with the existing available interfaces. Anybody have any clue how many layers the PCB is? (just curious) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 10:12:47AM +0100, Cass, John P wrote: I have a question before I go ahead and order my Neo - there was an earlier discussion about the possibility of getting a GTA02 board in October so we can upgrade our Neos to 02 without having to buy a whole new phone (call it the Philosopher's Neo). The issue is a bit more difficult. As of now, the 'board kit' would have to be: 1) the mainboard, including the stacked wifi PCB and the bluetooth FPC 2) the translucent buttons (otherwise you won't see the new much- requested LED's) 3) adhesive rubber between LCM and PCB 4) new plastic inset (speaker assembly) 5) adhesive shielding tape for LCM-PCB cable Even then, the assembly steps are not exactly trivial, since you * need to remove the LCM from the PCB. This is glued, and it is quite hard to remove without damaging the LCM, especially the very fragile FPC cable between LCM and PCB * need to remove the current white plastic stereo speaker compartment and replace it with the new mono speaker compartment (we had to find space for the wifi somewhere...) Yes, you could keep the GPS antenna, the plastic case and the LCM. But seriously, if you consider the amount of effort that we have to spend on creating a detailed step-by-step guide with photographs on the assembly process, plus the inevitable amount of customer support with people who think they'd get it done but now can't manage (or actually broke one or both of the devices now), I'm not really sure if it makes all that much sense. In the end, all you keep is the LCM. Yes, it is an expensive LCM. But in the overall picture, that 'mainboard kit' would only be insignificantly cheaper than the full GTA02 device. Oh yes, the case. Which costs close to nothing, and your old case might already have some scratches at GTA02 release time ;) So you probably wouldn't save more than USD 50 (maximum) that way. And for that, you have all the risk of some assembly problem? Thus, my personal conclusion: Isn't it much better to keep the old GTA01 and sell it to somebody who can't afford a GTA02? So I don't think we'll have an official upgrade kit. We will start selling spare parts at some point, though. The schedule is still somewhat unclear. Maybe there is a chance you can combine your kit out of spare parts. But still, I don't think it makes much sense. Sorry, -- - Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://openmoko.org/ Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So you probably wouldn't save more than USD 50 (maximum) that way. And for that, you have all the risk of some assembly problem? Not that I think it is a good expenditure of FIC's limited employee's time at this point, but one thing to think about for the long run is fostering a feeling of openness in all respects. Even thought it makes little sense for someone to upgrade individual parts for their phone, the mere fact that such an upgrade *exists* will create a different feeling in peoples minds. It is just another way for FIC to convince folks that they are the good guys and Apple/Nokia/Motorola/etc are all closed systems in every respect. -wolfgang -- Wolfgang S. Rupprechthttp://www.wsrcc.com/wolfgang/ IPv6 on Fedora 7 http://www.wsrcc.com/wolfgang/fedora/ipv6-tunnel.html ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
Harald, I am curious, what do you estimate the cost (as a percentage or dollar amount) that the GTA02 board kit would run compared to the expected $450 base price? I do prefer your idea about selling the GTA01Bv4 instead of upgrading...some people would just rather do it themselves...bragging rights? ;) Thanks Kyle On 7/29/07, Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 10:12:47AM +0100, Cass, John P wrote: I have a question before I go ahead and order my Neo - there was an earlier discussion about the possibility of getting a GTA02 board in October so we can upgrade our Neos to 02 without having to buy a whole new phone (call it the Philosopher's Neo). The issue is a bit more difficult. As of now, the 'board kit' would have to be: 1) the mainboard, including the stacked wifi PCB and the bluetooth FPC 2) the translucent buttons (otherwise you won't see the new much- requested LED's) 3) adhesive rubber between LCM and PCB 4) new plastic inset (speaker assembly) 5) adhesive shielding tape for LCM-PCB cable Even then, the assembly steps are not exactly trivial, since you * need to remove the LCM from the PCB. This is glued, and it is quite hard to remove without damaging the LCM, especially the very fragile FPC cable between LCM and PCB * need to remove the current white plastic stereo speaker compartment and replace it with the new mono speaker compartment (we had to find space for the wifi somewhere...) Yes, you could keep the GPS antenna, the plastic case and the LCM. But seriously, if you consider the amount of effort that we have to spend on creating a detailed step-by-step guide with photographs on the assembly process, plus the inevitable amount of customer support with people who think they'd get it done but now can't manage (or actually broke one or both of the devices now), I'm not really sure if it makes all that much sense. In the end, all you keep is the LCM. Yes, it is an expensive LCM. But in the overall picture, that 'mainboard kit' would only be insignificantly cheaper than the full GTA02 device. Oh yes, the case. Which costs close to nothing, and your old case might already have some scratches at GTA02 release time ;) So you probably wouldn't save more than USD 50 (maximum) that way. And for that, you have all the risk of some assembly problem? Thus, my personal conclusion: Isn't it much better to keep the old GTA01 and sell it to somebody who can't afford a GTA02? So I don't think we'll have an official upgrade kit. We will start selling spare parts at some point, though. The schedule is still somewhat unclear. Maybe there is a chance you can combine your kit out of spare parts. But still, I don't think it makes much sense. Sorry, -- - Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://openmoko.org/ Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
Harald wrote: So you probably wouldn't save more than USD 50 (maximum) that way. And for that, you have all the risk of some assembly problem? So, 450 - 50 USD = 400 USD for a kit... Am 29.07.2007 um 21:07 schrieb Kyle Bassett: I am curious, what do you estimate the cost (as a percentage or dollar amount) that the GTA02 board kit would run compared to the expected $450 base price? I do prefer your idea about selling the GTA01Bv4 instead of upgrading...some people would just rather do it themselves...bragging rights? ;) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
I read what Harald wrote, I wanted to know a few more details than just the base price minus the cost of the screen... thanks On 7/29/07, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Harald wrote: So you probably wouldn't save more than USD 50 (maximum) that way. And for that, you have all the risk of some assembly problem? So, 450 - 50 USD = 400 USD for a kit... Am 29.07.2007 um 21:07 schrieb Kyle Bassett: I am curious, what do you estimate the cost (as a percentage or dollar amount) that the GTA02 board kit would run compared to the expected $450 base price? I do prefer your idea about selling the GTA01Bv4 instead of upgrading...some people would just rather do it themselves...bragging rights? ;) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
On 7/14/07, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rod Whitby writes: Is there anyone who is involved in hardware development and seriously believes that the cost of an upgrade board (which necessarily will have all the stuff like the LCD attached to it, cause they are not end-user replaceable parts) will be any cheaper than the cost of a whole phone? Why won't the LCD be a user-replaceble part? It certainly was in my old Palm III; the screens I've encountered in the past have connected to their devices with a, well, connector! I think one can even see the connector on the mainboards photo... The stuff that is not replaced is just some bits of plastic ... Also, of course, there won't be a need for a new microSD nor batteries... And the debug board, the antenna. Seriously, it does make a difference. Moreover, if some new boards had to be sent to the beta testers in a given country, that could all be sent at once and then dispatched by a local OpenMoko group. freight cost would also be a lot less. I do myself wonder if it is possible. I am tempted to buy my Neo now, but I'm not ready to pay a second phone in October to get the new functionalities. I'd rather wait... $450 is a lot of money, even though I can afford it. I'm sure the guys at OpenMoko are very busy right now shipping all the phones. I heard Sean mentioning that they were thinking about 'eventually' shipping spare parts separately. I sure we'll hear more about it later... __ Marc-Olivier Barre. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
Bryce Leo wrote: Now ian that's a sweet Idea but the only problem is finding a place to buy a psp display! For 289 I can get these http://teptronics.com/pl9phrb.html two things, just as trivially I have two 9in diagonal screens that I can use for just about anything! But yes, i very much see where you're going. Heck, it'd be a pretty cool thinclient setup to build into a lap-board or tray while you're eating. Have some news feeds or soemthing like that going through. The possibilities are endless! Ebay - cheap, possibly clone displays - sparkfun - more expensive. PSP are nice as they have a matching interface. Much other stuff has LVDS, which won't work. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
Is there anyone who is involved in hardware development and seriously believes that the cost of an upgrade board (which necessarily will have all the stuff like the LCD attached to it, cause they are not end-user replaceable parts) will be any cheaper than the cost of a whole phone? The stuff that is not replaced is just some bits of plastic ... Then you have to add in the additional overhead costs of handling a whole new item for sale, warranty and support issues, etc ... Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that this will happen, and if you base your buying decision on a hope that this will happen then you should be probably be prepared to be disappointed ... (All my opinion only) -- Rod ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
Rod Whitby writes: Is there anyone who is involved in hardware development and seriously believes that the cost of an upgrade board (which necessarily will have all the stuff like the LCD attached to it, cause they are not end-user replaceable parts) will be any cheaper than the cost of a whole phone? Why won't the LCD be a user-replaceble part? It certainly was in my old Palm III; the screens I've encountered in the past have connected to their devices with a, well, connector! The stuff that is not replaced is just some bits of plastic ... Also, of course, there won't be a need for a new microSD nor batteries... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
The potential for this option is what made me order one now instead of October. I really hope Sean decides this would be a good idea. -Eric ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
On Thursday 12 July 2007 15:26, Eric Heinemann wrote: The potential for this option is what made me order one now instead of October. I really hope Sean decides this would be a good idea. -Eric I understood from his post that a discount on a complete unit for buyers of the dev phones is also an option. Somewhere I read that it is still unclear whether a direct transplant of motherboard is possible. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
A discounted upgrade pack would be even better. It could be less of a discount and still have a smaller overall price. Thats good for everyone On 7/12/07, Frans Grotepass [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 12 July 2007 15:26, Eric Heinemann wrote: The potential for this option is what made me order one now instead of October. I really hope Sean decides this would be a good idea. -Eric I understood from his post that a discount on a complete unit for buyers of the dev phones is also an option. Somewhere I read that it is still unclear whether a direct transplant of motherboard is possible. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
I'll add an obligatory me too as well. Usually it wouldn't matter but money has been tight with all the recent vet. bills i've had to pay. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
But what are you guys planning on doing with the old board at that point? Throw it away? I would suggest keeping the old phone intact and just selling it when you get the new phone. You should get a pretty good discount that way. And that way there are more neos out there circulating and that's better for everyone. -Brad ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
Brad Pitcher wrote: But what are you guys planning on doing with the old board at that point? Throw it away? I would suggest keeping the old phone intact and just selling it when you get the new phone. You should get a pretty good discount that way. And that way there are more neos out there circulating and that's better for everyone. At that time there will be absolutely no shortage - the current plan is for P1 to continue to be available right up to Oct, in as high a volume as is required. Even thousands/day. Personally. At that time, I'd reuse the Neo board into something. Add a USB NIC and a USB power supply, and it's an audio streaming box, for example. This is also for other reasons. Spares. If I screw my 01/02 by trying to solder it, I want to buy another PCB. If I break the USB jack off the board by misusing it, the same. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
I have to agree with Ian. I'd probably add usb wireless and just use it as a Myth remote. And if i can't find anything to do with it, i might just keep it around as a spare board in case i manage to break something or something like that. Maybe even board only upgrades for a while. I mean that lcd is very very good and i don't see a reason not to let people get the most out of it, and as the lcd is probably the most expensive part they could sell the board at a higher markup and get a larger profit, yet we'd still end up paying less. Now that sounds like decent economics. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
On 7/12/07, Bryce Leo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have to agree with Ian. I'd probably add usb wireless and just use it as a Myth remote. And if i can't find anything to do with it, i A remote is a good idea (maybe gta02 will get an IRDA emitter/detector). My idea for what to do with gta01 is to mount it in the wall as part of a home-automation system, or mount it in something that looks more like a picture frame and run a (tiny) slideshow on it. Don ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
Don Park wrote: On 7/12/07, Bryce Leo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have to agree with Ian. I'd probably add usb wireless and just use it as a Myth remote. And if i can't find anything to do with it, i A remote is a good idea (maybe gta02 will get an IRDA emitter/detector). My idea for what to do with gta01 is to mount it in the wall as part of a home-automation system, or mount it in something that looks more like a picture frame and run a (tiny) slideshow on it. As I understand it, a PSP display should more-or-less trivially attach to the LCD port. (with an appropriate flex-cable, and very minimal hardware) That for example would make it a nice car-computer display. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
Now ian that's a sweet Idea but the only problem is finding a place to buy a psp display! For 289 I can get these http://teptronics.com/pl9phrb.html two things, just as trivially I have two 9in diagonal screens that I can use for just about anything! But yes, i very much see where you're going. Heck, it'd be a pretty cool thinclient setup to build into a lap-board or tray while you're eating. Have some news feeds or soemthing like that going through. The possibilities are endless! ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board-only option in October?
Several people have asked whether they will be able to buy just the GTA02 motherboard as an upgrade. To save Sean answering this one, he's still looking into it, and they're *very* busy (exhausted) this week drinking from the firehose of having the store go online. The question I think is not so much whether they will sell the mobo separately as whether it will *work* as an upgrade from a unit that was factory-built as a GTA01. There will be an answer to this question, but I expect it will come in a week or so. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
Hello, I am also very interested in this potential option. __ Donnie Cass, John P wrote: Sean and team - congratulations on getting the site up. I have a question before I go ahead and order my Neo - there was an earlier discussion about the possibility of getting a GTA02 board in October so we can upgrade our Neos to 02 without having to buy a whole new phone (call it the Philosopher's Neo). Sean - have you had a chance to confirm that there will be a GTA02 board only option available in October? It would be great to be able to buy a Neo now and get started freeing phones with confidence that we can get hold of Wifi soon without having to buy a whole phone. It would be nice if the total cost came in around the price of a GTA02... ;-) http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/006108.html John ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
I'm very excited about the Neo1973 and OpenMoko, but I can't justify buying one now and a whole new one in October. I've decided to wait because the WiFi is important enough to me. However, if there will be a board-only option in October that would make a Phase I Neo + a Phase II board not *too* much more expensive than just a Phase II Neo, then I'd buy one right now! Any (semi-)official word on availability and pricing of a Phase II board-only option would be much appreciated. Thanks, Marco -- It is often forgotten that (dictionaries) are artificial repositories, put together well after the languages they define. The roots of language are irrational and of a magical nature. - Jorge Luis Borges, writer (1899-1986) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
