Re: How to bring forward the community?
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 23:43, Michael T. Dean mtd...@thirdcontact.com wrote: On 02/29/2012 05:35 AM, Nikita V. Youshchenko wrote: Then, we have to define a keyboard layout. QWERTY or ABCDEF. Add numeric keys or make them Num+QWERTY to save one row of keys. And to unsimplify, we need a US, a UK, a German, a French, an Italian layout and maybe Chinese, Japanese etc. This is doable by exchanging keycaps or keymats - but we have to stock and provide several different ones. Layout could be changed via software. What is actually printed on keys, does not matter much, it is changable on user side. Or just don't print it, a la http://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-ultimate/ . :) For me, it's the tactile feedback of a hardware keyboard I like--and I don't mean making the phone vibrate or the whole screen's clicking down or the phone's making a click sound when I hit a key, but being able to clearly /feel/ the edges of the keys so I know what key I'm hitting before I hit it and even when my finger is covering the keys. No idea if you could simulate it well enough with something like Senseg's (electro-static) haptics technology ( http://senseg.com/ + http://senseg.com/technology/senseg-technology ), but I have my doubts, and I'm sure patents and licensing costs make that a no-go, anyway. One idea to get the feeling of buttons is to use a protective film with some cuts or similar that you can feel, over the area where the virtual keyboard may appear. Mike ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
On 02/29/2012 05:35 AM, Nikita V. Youshchenko wrote: Then, we have to define a keyboard layout. QWERTY or ABCDEF. Add numeric keys or make them Num+QWERTY to save one row of keys. And to unsimplify, we need a US, a UK, a German, a French, an Italian layout and maybe Chinese, Japanese etc. This is doable by exchanging keycaps or keymats - but we have to stock and provide several different ones. Layout could be changed via software. What is actually printed on keys, does not matter much, it is changable on user side. Or just don't print it, a la http://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-ultimate/ . :) For me, it's the tactile feedback of a hardware keyboard I like--and I don't mean making the phone vibrate or the whole screen's clicking down or the phone's making a click sound when I hit a key, but being able to clearly /feel/ the edges of the keys so I know what key I'm hitting before I hit it and even when my finger is covering the keys. No idea if you could simulate it well enough with something like Senseg's (electro-static) haptics technology ( http://senseg.com/ + http://senseg.com/technology/senseg-technology ), but I have my doubts, and I'm sure patents and licensing costs make that a no-go, anyway. Mike ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community? Group Tour Donations Hub
Am 06.03.2012 um 07:58 schrieb Christ van Willegen: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 23:02, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: I have prepared a Wiki page: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA04_Group_Tour_Donations_Hub That's an excellent idea! I hope it gets used a lot! Me too. Christ van Willegen But it looks as if nobody is interested so far in getting a cheaper GTA04. Who proves me wrong? Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community? Group Tour Donations Hub
On Thu, 8 Mar 2012, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 06.03.2012 um 07:58 schrieb Christ van Willegen: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 23:02, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: I have prepared a Wiki page: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA04_Group_Tour_Donations_Hub That's an excellent idea! I hope it gets used a lot! Me too. Christ van Willegen But it looks as if nobody is interested so far in getting a cheaper GTA04. Who proves me wrong? Nikolaus I'd like to - but how? I've already preordered one GTA04 and would be willing to donate a second one. How to proceed? Order in Nikolaus' shop and write my name into the Wiki? I would offer 500 EUR, leaving the phone to someone who can do kernel/API development and only would have to pay the remaining 166 EUR or whatever. But also I'm not clear about the situation: are there still PCB's in stock to sell, do we all have to wait till end of March or April, which both are mentioned on the website? How many people do actually have already a GTA04 and are developing on it? A bit puzzled - Alex. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] How to bring forward the community? Group Tour Donations Hub
Hi Alex, Am 08.03.2012 um 17:34 schrieb Alexander Lehner: On Thu, 8 Mar 2012, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 06.03.2012 um 07:58 schrieb Christ van Willegen: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 23:02, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: I have prepared a Wiki page: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA04_Group_Tour_Donations_Hub That's an excellent idea! I hope it gets used a lot! Me too. Christ van Willegen But it looks as if nobody is interested so far in getting a cheaper GTA04. Who proves me wrong? Nikolaus I'd like to - but how? I've already preordered one GTA04 and would be willing to donate a second one. How to proceed? Order in Nikolaus' shop and write my name into the Wiki? It looks as if we are in the strange situation that there are more donations than persons who want to have one... Even if subsidized. As a donator, just wait that people who want to have a donation, show up on the wiki page. Then, look through project proposals and contact those who did make a proposal. And if you agree, I would suggest that he/she places an order in the shop and you make some agreement about the payment (we can also combine two payments into a single one). I would offer 500 EUR, leaving the phone to someone who can do kernel/API development and only would have to pay the remaining 166 EUR or whatever. But we could also add the reversed direction of getting into contact: if you want to donate, add your contact data and the conditions (e.g. kernel/API development searched) But also I'm not clear about the situation: are there still PCB's in stock to sell, do we all have to wait till end of March or April, which both are mentioned on the website? Both. Well, we are currently out of stock because new boards come in so slowly, but I hope we have new boards next week. So it is more or less a matter of urgency to take one from stock vs. group tour. How many people do actually have already a GTA04 and are developing on it? We have so far shipped more than 50 GTA04 units in total, but I see only a handful doing (or reporting) substantial development. A bit puzzled - I hope I could clarify some aspects. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] How to bring forward the community? Group Tour Donations Hub
On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 10:24 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: But we could also add the reversed direction of getting into contact: if you want to donate, add your contact data and the conditions (e.g. kernel/API development searched) I had used cofundus to good effect to get some applications written for the Freerunner. I am not sure if the site is still up. Rakshat ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] How to bring forward the community? Group Tour Donations Hub
On Thu, 8 Mar 2012, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: It looks as if we are in the strange situation that there are more donations than persons who want to have one... Even if subsidized. [...] I hope I could clarify some aspects. Great, thanks. I put myself on the wiki. Thinking about this strange situation - what kind of support would you need? I'm actually a professional Linux software developer but mainly on a userlevel stage, so no or minimal experience with kernel and driver. Thus, I wanted to wait (as many others, I guess) for the basics to be ready and then do application development or porting. Needless to say that I also lack of spare time. But if there's something I could do, I'd think about getting one of those pieces for myself and try to hack on it. A. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
On Sunday 04 March 2012 12:51:08 arne anka wrote: (but i would be willing to donate/add a couple of euros if it will help someone to buy a GTA04 who can't afford the full or even the rebated price) myself and others in this list have made the same offer... that's very good to know. i didn't follow the development of sales too close (though close enough to finally convince me, i may want a GTA04, too ;-) - how many are there an how much additional GTA04 could we buy/fund in adavnce between us (if nobody takes up the offer)? - how well known is that to prospective buyers of limited funds? such an offer, however generous it may be, is of little use if potential users are not aware of it - i for one did not know about it, except the remark about 5% rebates still being available since several early subscribers did not claim it. There are a few places you can 'order' a donation, but I don't know how well known they are. http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04referer=GTA04-Early-Adopter http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%3ACommunity ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
On 03/05/2012 10:36 AM, Al Johnson wrote: There are a few places you can 'order' a donation, but I don't know how well known they are. http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04referer=GTA04-Early-Adopter http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%3ACommunity The problem is that such a blind donations link is to vague and non-transparent. It's not an exciting rallying point for a community. Nikolaus, would there be a way to define a more concrete donation goal, eg., buying a specific batch of parts, that would help goldelico achieve the group order? Fernando ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
Hi Fernando, Am 05.03.2012 um 11:01 schrieb Fernando Martins: On 03/05/2012 10:36 AM, Al Johnson wrote: There are a few places you can 'order' a donation, but I don't know how well known they are. http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04referer=GTA04-Early-Adopter http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%3ACommunity The problem is that such a blind donations link is to vague and non-transparent. It's not an exciting rallying point for a community. Yes this is a problem. These donations help to cover general cost e.g. of running servers, development and have been used to reduce the price a little. But future donations should not change the price of the group tour. But as far as I see the intention is that there are some community members who want to specifically donate. We already have some orders where someone did do a full reservation with open shipment address and there was some private mail discussions of providing more kernel developers with a device. So please specify here what you would do in return, if you would receive such a free unit. Then, the donators (who are following this list) can contact you directly. Nikolaus, would there be a way to define a more concrete donation goal, eg., buying a specific batch of parts, that would help goldelico achieve the group order? Yes, that is a good idea and can be technically done. The problem is that it is difficult to exactly track this. Let's assume someone donates 200 EUR, this would mean that we can reduce the group tour price by 200/350 EUR, i.e. 57 ct. This is quite difficult to calculate and translate into a real refund to everyone. And I think reducing the price for new incoming orders (each donation reduces the 499 EUR by some cents) only would't be fair to those who already have ordered. Although it would be the easiest to implement scheme. Or we buy a handful UMTS modules from the 200 EUR. But who gets those boards? We could also think about reducing by each donation the number of units we need. This would only benefit the distributors and others since get a compensation for lower quantities. Or should we do it that way, that every donated 25 EUR automatically converts a 499 EUR group tour seat into a 474 EUR one, and each 50 EUR donation changes a 499 EUR to a 449 EUR seat? This makes it a lottery if someone is fast enough to get such a new 449 seat. Basically it needs some funds where you (donators) can put in money and you (others) can take it to get a GTA04 effectively at a reduced price. And perhaps a trustee to manage the funds. IMHO the key aspect of a solution is: how do we find a fair scheme that price reductions by donations reach those who really need them (and not some free-riders)? Nikolaus PS: maybe another aspect should also be pointed out: we have a volume rebate in our calculation. I.e. if someone finds 4 others and orders 5 units in combination, there is 5% rebate and for 10 units it is 10% rebate. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
On Mar 5, 2012 10:33 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Hi Fernando, Am 05.03.2012 um 11:01 schrieb Fernando Martins: On 03/05/2012 10:36 AM, Al Johnson wrote: There are a few places you can 'order' a donation, but I don't know how well known they are. http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04referer=GTA04-E arly-Adopter http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%3ACommunity The problem is that such a blind donations link is to vague and non-transparent. It's not an exciting rallying point for a community. Yes this is a problem. These donations help to cover general cost e.g. of running servers, development and have been used to reduce the price a little. But future donations should not change the price of the group tour. But as far as I see the intention is that there are some community members who want to specifically donate. We already have some orders where someone did do a full reservation with open shipment address and there was some private mail discussions of providing more kernel developers with a device. So please specify here what you would do in return, if you would receive such a free unit. Then, the donators (who are following this list) can contact you directly. Nikolaus, would there be a way to define a more concrete donation goal, eg., buying a specific batch of parts, that would help goldelico achieve the group order? Yes, that is a good idea and can be technically done. The problem is that it is difficult to exactly track this. Let's assume someone donates 200 EUR, this would mean that we can reduce the group tour price by 200/350 EUR, i.e. 57 ct. This is quite difficult to calculate and translate into a real refund to everyone. And I think reducing the price for new incoming orders (each donation reduces the 499 EUR by some cents) only would't be fair to those who already have ordered. Although it would be the easiest to implement scheme. I agree that reduction in prices is not the most interesting way to go. Donating mobiles to developers in exchange for specific software improvement looks like a good idea. The suggestion of targeting a specific batch of parts was not meant as a translation into price reductions. The current orders would also contribute their share to the batch. The suggestion was merely done in case there are components that must be ordered in a batch now to achieve important price reductions and other parts that could be bought on a as-needed basis. Fernando ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
It may not be that complicated, but it is morally wrong. It is morally wrong to help or support someone who is guilty of hoarding the good code and denying it to the public. so proprietary software(calypso source code is not free software) is morally good and free software(osmocombb and nuttx/nuttx-bb is free software) is morally wrong? And note that even if they had part of the source, and that's not enough. you want full source code and usually companies modifying the firmware basebands like openmoko don't have access to that. but osmocom-bb is maybe inefficent righ now(I'm working on fixing that ) but at least you have full source code of layer 1, layer 2, layer 3 you can do calls, sms etc...with it. you have even forks to detect if there are spying equipement connected to the network etc... you can get a real estimation of the RSSI and findout if the levels are too low and calling is dangerous... if you don't like contributing to osmocom-bb maybe you could contribute to fso and make it use osmocom-bb telnet interface for layer23? And about Harald Welte, you forget that he spent a lot of time studying GSM protocols, standards, writing the osmocom-bb code and he released that under a free software license with full source code, isn't that great? but you seem to prefer proprietary source code. Also, note that the non-free source code may be big, who would review it for backdoors? how would you compile it without non-free software? nobody would contribute to it etc... The only usefullness of proprietary source code is as a documentation to produce free source code. Denis. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
I think there are several options. If you keep the display, you have a nice GUI device for experimentation with WLAN, Bluetooth, USB. And, the SPI/I2C interfaces are accessible on test points near the debug connector. well, i am no hardware guy, but just a humble application programmer. So a dismantled GTA02 is still a nice SoC-Evaluation kit. Could be donated to educational institutions, used in home control, make some funny digital photo frame, make it a wireless NAS server (well, a disk drive on USB1.0 is a little slow). Or you keep the GTA02 as it is and wait until we have the CaseKit finished (which is not very far away). how much would that be? i imagine, CaseKit + display + GTA04 board adds up to about the 750 € for a complete GTA04, wouldn't it? and anyway, i don't think, i would have much use for the GTA02, board or complete, once i got an GTA04. if nobody turns up with a good idea why s/he would need the board -- is it an option for you, Nikolaus, to keep the board once i send in the GTA02 to be made into a GTA04? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
my idea of a donation was in the first place to get us nearer, my god to thee .. ehm .. nearer the 350 units required. ie in the first place to help people who can't afford the full price, since it would mean the most value for every euro donated. if that proves not feasible, the second best solution would to pay for units not (yet) sold -- and maybe give those away to developers. reducing the group tour price is not an option for me -- and certainly not without all 350 units being sold. and even then i'd donate to fund project infrastructure as proposed, the least effort would be applications for such donations would be brought forth on these lists -- then we could decide, who recieves a donation and how to proceed to make sure, it really is used to order a GTA04. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
I'm not even going to bother with the good netiquette of not top-posting on this one so sorry if that offends you all. Michael, ... i don't think it makes much sense to dicuss his ... funny ideas further. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community? Group Tour Donations Hub
Am 05.03.2012 um 22:06 schrieb arne anka: my idea of a donation was in the first place to get us nearer, my god to thee .. ehm .. nearer the 350 units required. ie in the first place to help people who can't afford the full price, since it would mean the most value for every euro donated. if that proves not feasible, the second best solution would to pay for units not (yet) sold -- and maybe give those away to developers. reducing the group tour price is not an option for me -- and certainly not without all 350 units being sold. and even then i'd donate to fund project infrastructure as proposed, the least effort would be applications for such donations would be brought forth on these lists -- then we could decide, who recieves a donation and how to proceed to make sure, it really is used to order a GTA04. Essentially this calls for a page/list where people seeking a GTA04 but who can't afford it themselves write down their project ideas and those who want to donate can contact them. If they agree they can subscribe for a unit. I have prepared a Wiki page: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA04_Group_Tour_Donations_Hub So please start to fill it in and use it. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
Am 05.03.2012 um 21:59 schrieb arne anka: I think there are several options. If you keep the display, you have a nice GUI device for experimentation with WLAN, Bluetooth, USB. And, the SPI/I2C interfaces are accessible on test points near the debug connector. well, i am no hardware guy, but just a humble application programmer. So a dismantled GTA02 is still a nice SoC-Evaluation kit. Could be donated to educational institutions, used in home control, make some funny digital photo frame, make it a wireless NAS server (well, a disk drive on USB1.0 is a little slow). Or you keep the GTA02 as it is and wait until we have the CaseKit finished (which is not very far away). how much would that be? i imagine, CaseKit + display + GTA04 board adds up to about the 750 € for a complete GTA04, wouldn't it? We don't know the exact prices yet. and anyway, i don't think, i would have much use for the GTA02, board or complete, once i got an GTA04. if nobody turns up with a good idea why s/he would need the board -- is it an option for you, Nikolaus, to keep the board once i send in the GTA02 to be made into a GTA04? Yes, we already have a bunch of them (I hesitate to make a photo since this looks a little sad). Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community? Group Tour Donations Hub
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 23:02, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: I have prepared a Wiki page: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA04_Group_Tour_Donations_Hub That's an excellent idea! I hope it gets used a lot! Christ van Willegen -- 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
On 03/03/2012 10:44 PM, arne anka wrote: (but i would be willing to donate/add a couple of euros if it will help someone to buy a GTA04 who can't afford the full or even the rebated price) myself and others in this list have made the same offer... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
msoko...@ivan.harhan.org (Michael Sokolov) writes: close in terms of hackability. Unfortunately the greedy bastards are refusing to share, hence extracting the ware from them requires the use of a soldering iron, inserted rectally. If anyone is willing to I'm sorry, but that is an intolerable thing to write. I hope you will take it back and apologise for it. Neil ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
(but i would be willing to donate/add a couple of euros if it will help someone to buy a GTA04 who can't afford the full or even the rebated price) myself and others in this list have made the same offer... that's very good to know. i didn't follow the development of sales too close (though close enough to finally convince me, i may want a GTA04, too ;-) - how many are there an how much additional GTA04 could we buy/fund in adavnce between us (if nobody takes up the offer)? - how well known is that to prospective buyers of limited funds? such an offer, however generous it may be, is of little use if potential users are not aware of it - i for one did not know about it, except the remark about 5% rebates still being available since several early subscribers did not claim it. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
vibration is a pretty good idea though, have you tried it arne? On 3 March 2012 21:20, arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de wrote: sounds is a no-go. the only sound i tolerate is the one coming out of the earpiece/headset when making/recieving a call or listening to music. --- On Sat, 3/3/12, Lionel Broche lionel.bro...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe using an audible 'clic' would be an alternative for touch screen keypads? or using an electric discharge to trigger the user's nerves :) (though this may lower the battery life...) Ah so you never tried fatfingershell :) Rafa PS. BTW, it uses four different sounds, so every key sounds different than its neighbors. And you have (if you want) a smooth vibration feedback as well. __**_ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/**mailman/listinfo/communityhttp://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- -- __**_ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/**mailman/listinfo/communityhttp://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Dr Lionel Broche Aberdeen Biomedical Imaging Centre University of Aberdeen tel : +44 1224 553 206 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
Hi Arne, Am 03.03.2012 um 22:44 schrieb arne anka: what's stopping me from subscribing for the GTA04 is simply the question, what to do with the innards of my disembowled GTA02. although the GTA02 as well as a new GTA04 would be litle more than a toy anyway, i shrink back from the idea to produce electronic waste just for fun. money isn't really an issue here, but i don't want to spend 750 euros for a complete new GTA04 i don't really have a practical use for. (but i would be willing to donate/add a couple of euros if it will help someone to buy a GTA04 who can't afford the full or even the rebated price) so, what do you group tour subscribers plan to do with the replaced parts? just sink them in the waste basket? hang on the wall? or do you have a meaningful solution? I think there are several options. If you keep the display, you have a nice GUI device for experimentation with WLAN, Bluetooth, USB. And, the SPI/I2C interfaces are accessible on test points near the debug connector. So a dismantled GTA02 is still a nice SoC-Evaluation kit. Could be donated to educational institutions, used in home control, make some funny digital photo frame, make it a wireless NAS server (well, a disk drive on USB1.0 is a little slow). Or you keep the GTA02 as it is and wait until we have the CaseKit finished (which is not very far away). Therefore it is important to spread of the platform. Having 1 month left over for subscribing to the (extended) group tour is a good point to draw an intermediate view. This morning we now have 34% which is one third of the required number of units (for the given price). This is a good increment from the 23% or so we did have right before FOSDEM when we decided to extend the subscription time frame. So the next goal is to crack the 40%! One more thing: some 5% rebate seats are still available since some generous subscribers did choose no early bird rebate. BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- -- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
Am 03.03.2012 um 14:07 schrieb Gerald A: On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Am 01.03.2012 um 13:28 schrieb Wolfgang Spraul: So what to use? Nothing to use... We should look for what comes after phones and tablets. What's next? Next generation phones and tablets :) As a consumer, it's a bit hard to distinguish between one generation and the next, though. In the past, it was easier -- upgrades from LCD to mono screens, from mono screens to color, from telephone keypads to qwerty. It's harder lately to distinguish, at a quick glance, a retina display from a regular one. It is difficult to develop something totally new. (My standard methapher: each revolution looks like evolution if you have a sufficiently distant point of view). I agree to a certain degree -- from a hardware point of view, at least. But it's pretty clear that the iPhone and iPad were dramatic shifts for smartphones and tablets. The iPhone brought new energy and enthusiasm to the smartphone market. There were a few big players already in this market, but Apple managed to change the direction of the market. I think they mainly could because they were neither a network operator nor a classical phone manufacturer. So they could decide to make standard Web browsing (instead of MMS services) the default. The iPad brought tablets, which had languished for years, from being ignored to something that many people knew something about. And, they have very valuable content to distribute. That makes IMHO the main difference. Before, a smartphone was a device to communicate and have some preinstalled games plus PIM applications to sync with your desktop. Now it became the access device to a plethora of well organized content. And the Apps ecosystem is nothing else than a publisher business model (incl. selection and quality control). This was IMHO the most dramatic change. Now, the hardware they used wasn't the greatest in each case -- it had and has lots of limits. But they had amazing software, and a vision for the customer of their device. They didn't end up inventing a new device, per se, but they did end up re-inventing it. To consumers, they are new devices, because they never saw the clunky windows tablets or older smartphones. Consumers mostly see the content (that is always well packed by Apple/Disney), not the device. For phones and tablets it means they will increase in screen resolution, increase in processing power and networking speed, increase in battery life, increase how easily they can be used. The last one is the most interesting since it includes both hardware and software. One thing is clear: Until a device is commercially successful, it has no chance to survive in the arms race that is commercial phone development. Things change too fast and cost too much to bring out a new rev every X months. Every hardware piece is a compromise, and I've been a close watcher on the sidelines when FIC/OM launched their phones. It's harder with a phone, because since almost everyone has one, everyone will have an idea about one. So, where does that leave us? I think it's simple -- we have to compete, at first, mostly in software. I held out lots of hope for this with the Neo and the Freerunner, but they had basic issues that made them a bit difficult to deal with. I think QtMoko and now SHR are on a good path. The OPAM3 used in the GTA04 is a much better supported platform to concentrate GUI development on the useability aspects. I do think there are markets that are out there that are unserved and underserved, where something with good software could flourish. I'm still not convinced your business model is the best approach. While it involves the least risk for all concerned, it feels to me like it's not working well. I gave you some thoughts earlier, and you had good points why your point of view was better. But, your current rallying point is to get to 40% of your goal, and that means that 60% remains. Don't get me wrong, I do hope your device gets built, and I intend to order when budget allows me ... but without some major donation, I'm not sure your timeline is feasible. I think it is still feasible. The only thing we must improve is the positive feedback look. The more GTA04 (from stock) devices are out there and the more users of the GTA04 are happy (and report that), the more the undecided ones can decide. Several factors are not yet positive enough, but we are working on it: * production yield for the from stock devices is being increased * we are working on a case kit so that a 3D printed case from Shapeways becomes a 100% replacement to disassemble a GTA01/02 * we work to preinstall QtMoko in NAND flash so that the first power-on gives a better impression and has less problems formatting the SD card correctly
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
Am 04.03.2012 um 00:59 schrieb Michael Sokolov: arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de wrote: but if nikolaus is ok with that (re-stocking the used GTA02 boards, that is :-), that's certainly solution. As I understand it, he already does that. Yes, we have some GTA02 boards w/o display... - what's so hackable about the calypso fw? as far as i recall, it was a major afford to get an updated fw and make it flashable. Certain individuals in the Om community are holding personal copies of that firmware in semi-source form, or more precisely, in the form of object modules with full symbolic information (names of functions, global variables, etc) - not quite the same as full source, but pretty close in terms of hackability. Unfortunately the greedy bastards are refusing to share, hence extracting the ware from them requires the use of a soldering iron, inserted rectally. If anyone is willing to Could it be possible that those greedy bastards don't even exist except in your wishful thinking? perform such an operation for the benefit of the community, I can supply the names of the suspects and my best available information as to their physical whereabouts. Alternatively, there exists the TSM30 firmware source: it's a different Calypso phone, and that code is full source and readily available from Cryptome.org and other sites. Unfortunately the TSM30 hardware has been very heavily modified from the Leonardo* baseline (whereas the GSM part of GTA02 is almost identical with Leonardo), hence backporting the TSM30 source to run on a Leonardo-style Calypso subsystem like GTA02 would take a lot more work than what we could do if we had the real GTA02 version of the semi-source. But the backport of the TSM30 to Leonardo/GTA02 does not seem impossible, just really difficult, and I am hoping to find the time some day to tackle that project - in my view, it is an ethically superior approach than OsmocomBB. [*] Leonardo is TI's reference design for the Calypso/Iota/Rita chipset; liberated Leonardo board schematics and chip docs for all components are on my public FTP site. There is also a possibility that someone in the People's Republic of China may have a copy of the same semi-source deliverable which FIC got from TI (that exact same deliverable or a very very similar one must have been given to *all* makers of Calypso-based feature phones), but who would be more open to sharing than the Om bastards. Any comrades in the PRC reading this, you know whom to email. and how much less hackable is the new gsm chip's fw? We shall only know if Nikolaus were to grow the b*lls to burn or shred his German passport, apply for citizenship in the Principality of Sealand, the Republic of New Poseidia or some other (micro)nation in which NDAs have no legal validity and in which all intellectual creations of every kind are automatically and unconditionally in the public domain, and publicly share all materials which he has received from the maker of whatever GSM/UMTS module he has used in the GTA04. If and when Nikolaus does the above, I shall gladly and immediately buy a GTA04 - but not till then. This sounds like shooting yourself in the foot. As soon as I would do that, I can't sell you a GT04 any more because I don't receive any more of these modules. So it is not a realistic option. And you would be astonished how tiny information we really have. Almost everything we know has been transcribed into valuable information and is included in the user's manual. This are AT commands and the pin layout. By going to the official product page you can also find out that there is a QC MDM6600 inside (same as iPhone 4). But that does not mean that we have received any information about that chip or its firmware... We are at least on the output of the third level information filter from QC to us. It is in this respect like buying a UMTS-USB stick in a blister pack where you don't get a service manual included. Finally you will find by research that there are some projects to write alternate firmware for MDM6600 devices. But that is all, that I know that those projects exist (I think one was mentioned recently on the GTA04 list [1]). Nikolaus [1]: http://lists.goldelico.com/pipermail/gta04-owner/2011-December/001071.html ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
Am 04.03.2012 um 14:55 schrieb Benjamin Deering: My gta02 innards will probably be reassigned to monitoring my kegerator. Since it has i2c and wifi, I should be able to connect load sensors, a thermometer, and a sensor to know when the compressor is running. It could then send the information over wifi to www.jeepingben.net so I can monitor energy efficiency, beer levels, and beer temperature from anywhere. ++ :) On 03/04/2012 07:59 AM, Bob Ham wrote: On Sat, 2012-03-03 at 22:44 +0100, arne anka wrote: so, what do you group tour subscribers plan to do with the replaced parts? just sink them in the waste basket? hang on the wall? or do you have a meaningful solution? My intention is to use the remaining phone innards to experiment with and help develop, a 3D printable case. ___ Gta04-owner mailing list gta04-ow...@goldelico.com http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo/gta04-owner ___ Gta04-owner mailing list gta04-ow...@goldelico.com http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo/gta04-owner Nikolaus (PS: forwarded to the OM community discussion list because of potentially broader interest)___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Could it be possible that those greedy bastards don't even exist except in your wishful thinking? I don't buy that - I don't buy the fairy-tale that each and every former employee of Om-Inc who had NDA'd access to The Treasure has refrained from sneaking a personal copy home with him. That is a preposterous claim. There most certainly do exist former Om-Inc employees who are sitting on personal copies of the deliverable which that company had received from TI. I know of at least two former Om-Inc employees who have demonstrated detailed knowledge of what that deliverable contained - I take that as evidence that they are the ones most likely to be holding on to personal copies. Not 100% proof, but enough evidence to hire some professionals to do a kidnapping operation as soon as I can gather up the funds to do that. And if the people whom I suspect to be holding personal copies of the TI-Om deliverables have deleted those personal copies, well, too bad for them, as the hot soldering iron won't get taken out of their rectums until a copy of the ware is in my hands. So, to those reading this who are holding those personal copies: just upload a copy anonymously to some warez site, announce it on this list using an untraceable anonymous email account, and then you will no longer need to worry about getting kidnapped and receiving thermorectal treatment. This sounds like shooting yourself in the foot. As soon as I would do that, I can't sell you a GT04 any more because I don't receive any more of these modules. So it is not a realistic option. The obvious solution is to use two separate unconnected identities for the NDA-signing and NDA-breaking activities. MS ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
Am 04.03.2012 um 21:14 schrieb Michael Sokolov: Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Could it be possible that those greedy bastards don't even exist except in your wishful thinking? I don't buy that - I don't buy the fairy-tale that each and every former employee of Om-Inc who had NDA'd access to The Treasure has refrained from sneaking a personal copy home with him. That is a preposterous claim. There most certainly do exist former Om-Inc employees who are sitting on personal copies of the deliverable which that company had received from TI. I know of at least two former Om-Inc employees who have demonstrated detailed knowledge of what that deliverable contained - I take that as evidence that they are the ones most likely to be holding on to personal copies. Not 100% proof, but enough evidence to hire some professionals to do a kidnapping operation as soon as I can gather up the funds to do that. And if the people whom I suspect to be holding personal copies of the TI-Om deliverables have deleted those personal copies, well, too bad for them, as the hot soldering iron won't get taken out of their rectums until a copy of the ware is in my hands. So, to those reading this who are holding those personal copies: just upload a copy anonymously to some warez site, announce it on this list using an untraceable anonymous email account, and then you will no longer need to worry about getting kidnapped and receiving thermorectal treatment. Hm. In our legislation this is considered a crime Erpressung (extortion). And for good reasons. This sounds like shooting yourself in the foot. As soon as I would do that, I can't sell you a GT04 any more because I don't receive any more of these modules. So it is not a realistic option. The obvious solution is to use two separate unconnected identities for the NDA-signing and NDA-breaking activities. No, that is not a solution. That is also a crime Betrug (fraud)... And you honestly ask to commit crimes in the name of Free and Open Source? IMHO that has nothing to do with freedom at all. Just personal enrichment. And does *not* bring forward the community. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: IMHO that has nothing to do with freedom at all. Just personal enrichment. Objection: it is *NOT* personal enrichment if I share. If I were to ever get a hold of the ware that I am after, I would NOT greedily hoard it for myself like its current holders are doing, I would make it available to everyone who wants it. And does *not* bring forward the community. Depends on which community you are talking about. If *your* community has chosen to cripple itself by limiting to just those means which don't offend the repressive legislative regimes, then indeed your community won't benefit from IFS (Illegal Free Software) work. However, my work on building a Totally Illegal Phone (whether I do it by kidnapping an ex-Om-Inc employee and beating the TI deliverable out of him, by taking the publicly leaked TSM30 source and modifying it in a copyright-disregarding manner to backport it to Leonardo/GTA02, or by taking OsmocomBB and adding illegal enhancements to it) will most certainly benefit a DIFFERENT community: a community of brave and determined revolutionaries who are officially At War with all law-making regimes and who would like to use the enemy's Public Land Mobile Networks infrastructure in our asymmetric warfare against them. MS ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
- what's so hackable about the calypso fw? as far as i recall, it was a major afford to get an updated fw and make it flashable. and how much less hackable is the new gsm chip's fw? Well, you can run osmocom-bb or nuttx on it. for instance with nuttx: root@om-gta02:~# /etc/init.d/dbus-1 stop Stopping system message bus: dbus. root@om-gta02:~# /etc/init.d/xserver-nodm stop Stopping XServer root@om-gta02:~# osmocon -i 13 -m romload -p /dev/ttySAC0 nuttx.bin [...] open a new shell and type: echo 0 /sys/bus/platform/devices/gta02-pm-gsm.0/power_on echo 1 /sys/bus/platform/devices/gta02-pm-gsm.0/power_on Then on the first shell you see: Preparing block 63, block checksum is 0xec handle_write_block(): 1024 bytes (1024/1024) handle_write_block(): Block 63 finished Received block ack from phone Preparing the last block, filling 616 bytes, block checksum is 0x75 handle_write_block(): 1024 bytes (1024/1024) handle_write_block(): Block 64 finished Finished, sent 64 blocks in total Received block ack from phone Sending checksum: 0x42 Checksum on phone side matches, let's branch to your code Branching to 0x0082 Received branch ack, your code is running now! NuttShell (NSH) then with a python script you can interact with the shell: root@om-gta02:~# ./loadwriter.py help which produces: nsh help NSH command forms: [nice [-d niceness]] cmd [ file| file] [] OR if cmd then [sequence of cmd] else [sequence of cmd] fi Where cmd is one of: [ expression ] ? cat path [path [path ...]] cp source-path dest-path dd if=infile of=outfile [bs=sectsize] [count=sectors] [skip=sectors] echo [string [string...]] exec hex-address exit free help kill -signal pid losetup [-d dev-path] | [[-o offset] [-r] dev-path file-path] ls [-lRs] dir-path mb hex-address[=hex-value][ hex-byte-count] mkfifo path mh hex-address[=hex-value][ hex-byte-count] mw hex-address[=hex-value][ hex-byte-count] ps sh script-path sleep sec test expression usleep usec xd hex-address byte-count Builtin Apps: Alternatively you can run a loader, a hello world, a rss firmware, a layer1(with layer23 running on the samsung SOC) firmware etc Denis. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
However, my work on building a Totally Illegal Phone That points nowhere. I think you should instead try to go the legal way, so you can't be attacked in court, because it's way too easy to attack you if you do something illegal. Theses companies have a lot of lawyers and spend a lot on it. The way to go is to improve nuttx port on calypso phones. it's not that complicated. Now it runs on the calypso of the freerunner(and on other phones too). so please instead of attacking the openmoko people which points nowhere( they won't give you the source, they could have given it to you already if they wished but they didn't. so I guess they don't want to and will never give you theses sources), do something productive and join us in making osmocom-bb usable(by improving the nuttx port on calypso and then porting osmocom-bb on top of it). so instead of waisting time on useless things, please join us. Denis. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli gnu...@no-log.org wrote: That points nowhere. For you maybe, but not for me. I think you should instead try to go the legal way, I disagree. Man-made law of every kind is my arch-enemy, and the purpose of my life is to break those laws. Without law-breaking life becomes devoid of meaning. so you can't be attacked in court, That is irrelevant to me: I can never be attacked in court because I WILL NEVER SHOW UP TO COURT. because it's way too easy to attack you if you do something illegal. No, it isn't easy. Theses companies have a lot of lawyers and spend a lot on it. So what are they going to do? Send me threats? How? By email? I'll laugh at them, then hit delete. By postal mail to my PO box? There's a paper recycle bin conveniently located right next to it. Look up one of the addresses I've used for receiving shipments, addresses that look like real physical ones? Well, they only *look* like real physical addresses - in reality they are mailbox services. So GOOD LUCK on trying to force me to show up in court... The way to go is to improve nuttx port on calypso phones. it's not that complicated. It may not be that complicated, but it is morally wrong. It is morally wrong to help or support someone who is guilty of hoarding the good code and denying it to the public. Harald Welte is the leader of the entire Osmocom family of projects. He is a former employee of Om-Inc and I have every reason to suspect that he is hoarding a personal copy of the good code, although he'll obviously never admit to it. That makes Osmocom morally tainted, i.e., it is morally wrong to contribute in any way to any of the projects under that umbrella, particularly OsmocomBB. Just to be clear, there is nothing wrong with merely *using* what those projects have already produced: Leninist philosophy states that any and all means are acceptable, so we can use whatever tool or resource does the job. But it *is* wrong to help them with contributions. Therefore, if I ever feel like making enhancements to the OsmocomBB code base, I'll be sure to make them non-GPL-compatible so that my work benefits only the illegal community and not the legal one. so please instead of attacking the openmoko people which points nowhere( they won't give you the source, they could have given it to you already if they wished but they didn't. so I guess they don't want to and will never give you theses sources), I can still kidnap one of them and do the thermorectal procedure. And the prospect of going to prison for kidnapping/assault/battery/ whatever they call it doesn't scare me one bit - I am very confident of my ability to upload the seized code to some warez site *before* the cops arrive and get me. Then I could spend the rest of my life in prison or perhaps die in a gunfire exchange with the police while resisting arrest, but the deed will be done: the code will be FREE - once it hits a public warez site, it'll get copied by all the other warez sites and the copyright/NDA police will never be able to take all of those copies down. do something productive and join us in making osmocom-bb usable(by improving the nuttx port on calypso and then porting osmocom-bb on top of it). so instead of waisting time on useless things, please join us. NO, NEVER. If I have NO other option, I would rather take a gun, shoot one of those bastards who are denying me the good code, then shoot myself before the cops arrive. I will be dead, but my tormentor will be dead too, so that makes it a fair exchange, a life for a life. MS ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
I'm not even going to bother with the good netiquette of not top-posting on this one so sorry if that offends you all. Michael, Whether you realize it or not you're giving open culture and this community specifically a 'black eye' by posting such inflammatory rhetoric. I, and probably most others on the list appreciate the hard work that went into the Neo 1973, Neo FreeRunner, and the latest iteration from Golden Delicious, the GTA04. I think you do as well, but you have a funny way of showing it. In a perfect world we would already have open standards that would allow for the devices we envision. We don't live in a perfect world. There are rules that need to be followed if we hope to change the devices we're growing ever more accustomed to, and you're not helping the process. In point of fact public posts like yours will be used as ammunition against what most of us on the list are working towards. I share your sense of frustration in regards to hardware specs not being more open but I won't resort to threats like you do. Instead I'll keep trying to educate people about the dangers involved in walled gardens and closed systems. At least that's a positive endeavour to engage in and it's likely to eventually take hold once we have saner patent laws. I think it's shameful for the open culture community on the whole to have it's reputation sullied by your threatening comments. I can't tell if you're a troll, an agent provocateur, or just a misguided soul who really does mean what he says. In any case welcome to my 'plonk' file pal as this will be the only response you'll ever get from me. Hal On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 23:07:32 GMT msoko...@ivan.harhan.org (Michael Sokolov) wrote: Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli gnu...@no-log.org wrote: That points nowhere. For you maybe, but not for me. I think you should instead try to go the legal way, I disagree. Man-made law of every kind is my arch-enemy, and the purpose of my life is to break those laws. Without law-breaking life becomes devoid of meaning. so you can't be attacked in court, That is irrelevant to me: I can never be attacked in court because I WILL NEVER SHOW UP TO COURT. because it's way too easy to attack you if you do something illegal. No, it isn't easy. Theses companies have a lot of lawyers and spend a lot on it. So what are they going to do? Send me threats? How? By email? I'll laugh at them, then hit delete. By postal mail to my PO box? There's a paper recycle bin conveniently located right next to it. Look up one of the addresses I've used for receiving shipments, addresses that look like real physical ones? Well, they only *look* like real physical addresses - in reality they are mailbox services. So GOOD LUCK on trying to force me to show up in court... The way to go is to improve nuttx port on calypso phones. it's not that complicated. It may not be that complicated, but it is morally wrong. It is morally wrong to help or support someone who is guilty of hoarding the good code and denying it to the public. Harald Welte is the leader of the entire Osmocom family of projects. He is a former employee of Om-Inc and I have every reason to suspect that he is hoarding a personal copy of the good code, although he'll obviously never admit to it. That makes Osmocom morally tainted, i.e., it is morally wrong to contribute in any way to any of the projects under that umbrella, particularly OsmocomBB. Just to be clear, there is nothing wrong with merely *using* what those projects have already produced: Leninist philosophy states that any and all means are acceptable, so we can use whatever tool or resource does the job. But it *is* wrong to help them with contributions. Therefore, if I ever feel like making enhancements to the OsmocomBB code base, I'll be sure to make them non-GPL-compatible so that my work benefits only the illegal community and not the legal one. so please instead of attacking the openmoko people which points nowhere( they won't give you the source, they could have given it to you already if they wished but they didn't. so I guess they don't want to and will never give you theses sources), I can still kidnap one of them and do the thermorectal procedure. And the prospect of going to prison for kidnapping/assault/battery/ whatever they call it doesn't scare me one bit - I am very confident of my ability to upload the seized code to some warez site *before* the cops arrive and get me. Then I could spend the rest of my life in prison or perhaps die in a gunfire exchange with the police while resisting arrest, but the deed will be done: the code will be FREE - once it hits a public warez site, it'll get copied by all the other warez sites and the copyright/NDA police will never be able to take all of those copies down. do something productive and join us in making osmocom-bb usable(by
Re: How to bring forward the community?
well, I think you just have to look at the capabilities of IMAP5 to see that the next generations of phone/tablet will have 3D support, both for display and webcam (I think IMAP5 supports 2 webcam ports). So IMHO the big manufacturers are now focusing on including 3D instead of designing new concepts. About the choice of keyboard, from what I read on this thread I think that one of the main issue is the feedback. Touch keyboard give you a feedback via the feeling of the fingertips, so you don't need to focus your attention to it. Maybe using an audible 'clic' would be an alternative for touch screen keypads? or using an electric discharge to trigger the user's nerves :) (though this may lower the battery life...) Lionel On 1 March 2012 12:28, Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@sharism.cc wrote: So what to use? Nothing to use... We should look for what comes after phones and tablets. What's next? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Dr Lionel Broche Aberdeen Biomedical Imaging Centre University of Aberdeen tel : +44 1224 553 206 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
On 03/03/2012 11:09 AM, Lionel Broche wrote: well, I think you just have to look at the capabilities of IMAP5 to see that the next generations of phone/tablet will have 3D support, both for display and webcam (I think IMAP5 supports 2 webcam ports). So IMHO the big manufacturers are now focusing on including 3D instead of designing new concepts. About the choice of keyboard, from what I read on this thread I think that one of the main issue is the feedback. Touch keyboard give you a feedback via the feeling of the fingertips, so you don't need to focus your attention to it. Maybe using an audible 'clic' would be an alternative for touch screen keypads? or using an electric discharge to trigger the user's nerves :) (though this may lower the battery life...) I guess all improvements on the soft keyboard are nice but keeping the screen free with a solidly attached keyboard like the N900 is incomparably much better. Put yourself in a queue for 3 hours while using email and browser under stress. Would the GTA04 fit in the case of a N900 and would it be unrealistic to buy the case from Nokia? Anyway, although the keyboard is an interesting discussion, I still think the main hurdle to increase de community and its involvement is the current price and the lack of a complete phone solution. Also, as pointed out by others, missing an SMS, as it happened to me with qtmoko (3.4?) is a major show-stopper. I think the current approach of marketing the hardware flexibility is a good one, albeit with a smalle market. I guess it could actually be more useful for industry than individuals, but the concept of designing a mobile to fit the specific needs of a company might be too unheard off, needing a bigger/smarter marketing effort. Fernando ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.comwrote: Am 01.03.2012 um 13:28 schrieb Wolfgang Spraul: So what to use? Nothing to use... We should look for what comes after phones and tablets. What's next? Next generation phones and tablets :) As a consumer, it's a bit hard to distinguish between one generation and the next, though. In the past, it was easier -- upgrades from LCD to mono screens, from mono screens to color, from telephone keypads to qwerty. It's harder lately to distinguish, at a quick glance, a retina display from a regular one. It is difficult to develop something totally new. (My standard methapher: each revolution looks like evolution if you have a sufficiently distant point of view). I agree to a certain degree -- from a hardware point of view, at least. But it's pretty clear that the iPhone and iPad were dramatic shifts for smartphones and tablets. The iPhone brought new energy and enthusiasm to the smartphone market. There were a few big players already in this market, but Apple managed to change the direction of the market. The iPad brought tablets, which had languished for years, from being ignored to something that many people knew something about. Now, the hardware they used wasn't the greatest in each case -- it had and has lots of limits. But they had amazing software, and a vision for the customer of their device. They didn't end up inventing a new device, per se, but they did end up re-inventing it. To consumers, they are new devices, because they never saw the clunky windows tablets or older smartphones. For phones and tablets it means they will increase in screen resolution, increase in processing power and networking speed, increase in battery life, increase how easily they can be used. The last one is the most interesting since it includes both hardware and software. One thing is clear: Until a device is commercially successful, it has no chance to survive in the arms race that is commercial phone development. Things change too fast and cost too much to bring out a new rev every X months. Every hardware piece is a compromise, and I've been a close watcher on the sidelines when FIC/OM launched their phones. It's harder with a phone, because since almost everyone has one, everyone will have an idea about one. So, where does that leave us? I think it's simple -- we have to compete, at first, mostly in software. I held out lots of hope for this with the Neo and the Freerunner, but they had basic issues that made them a bit difficult to deal with. I do think there are markets that are out there that are unserved and underserved, where something with good software could flourish. I'm still not convinced your business model is the best approach. While it involves the least risk for all concerned, it feels to me like it's not working well. I gave you some thoughts earlier, and you had good points why your point of view was better. But, your current rallying point is to get to 40% of your goal, and that means that 60% remains. Don't get me wrong, I do hope your device gets built, and I intend to order when budget allows me ... but without some major donation, I'm not sure your timeline is feasible. Thanks, Gerald ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
--- On Sat, 3/3/12, Lionel Broche lionel.bro...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe using an audible 'clic' would be an alternative for touch screen keypads? or using an electric discharge to trigger the user's nerves :) (though this may lower the battery life...) Ah so you never tried fatfingershell :) Rafa PS. BTW, it uses four different sounds, so every key sounds different than its neighbors. And you have (if you want) a smooth vibration feedback as well. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
sounds is a no-go. the only sound i tolerate is the one coming out of the earpiece/headset when making/recieving a call or listening to music. --- On Sat, 3/3/12, Lionel Broche lionel.bro...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe using an audible 'clic' would be an alternative for touch screen keypads? or using an electric discharge to trigger the user's nerves :) (though this may lower the battery life...) Ah so you never tried fatfingershell :) Rafa PS. BTW, it uses four different sounds, so every key sounds different than its neighbors. And you have (if you want) a smooth vibration feedback as well. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- -- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
what's stopping me from subscribing for the GTA04 is simply the question, what to do with the innards of my disembowled GTA02. although the GTA02 as well as a new GTA04 would be litle more than a toy anyway, i shrink back from the idea to produce electronic waste just for fun. money isn't really an issue here, but i don't want to spend 750 euros for a complete new GTA04 i don't really have a practical use for. (but i would be willing to donate/add a couple of euros if it will help someone to buy a GTA04 who can't afford the full or even the rebated price) so, what do you group tour subscribers plan to do with the replaced parts? just sink them in the waste basket? hang on the wall? or do you have a meaningful solution? Therefore it is important to spread of the platform. Having 1 month left over for subscribing to the (extended) group tour is a good point to draw an intermediate view. This morning we now have 34% which is one third of the required number of units (for the given price). This is a good increment from the 23% or so we did have right before FOSDEM when we decided to extend the subscription time frame. So the next goal is to crack the 40%! One more thing: some 5% rebate seats are still available since some generous subscribers did choose no early bird rebate. BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- -- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de wrote: so, what do you group tour subscribers plan to do with the replaced parts? just sink them in the waste basket? hang on the wall? or do you have a meaningful solution? Please please please don't waste them, please make them available to people like me who like GTA02 BETTER than GTA04 (for Calypso GSM firmware hacking reasons). One way to do that would be to ship the GTA02 PCBA back to Goldelico who will then save these parts for resale to the interested people. MS ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
well, that's certainly an idea that didn'zt occur to me. but wouldn't support those reactionaries somehow defy the purpose of the GTA04 movement? ;-) otoh, if there's sufficient demand it could offer another source of funding. but if nikolaus is ok with that (re-stocking the used GTA02 boards, that is :-), that's certainly solution. two questions though: - what's so hackable about the calypso fw? as far as i recall, it was a major afford to get an updated fw and make it flashable. and how much less hackable is the new gsm chip's fw? - nikolaus: what about future fw updates for those closed parts like the gsm chip? not just new features but simple bug fixes? arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de wrote: so, what do you group tour subscribers plan to do with the replaced parts? just sink them in the waste basket? hang on the wall? or do you have a meaningful solution? Please please please don't waste them, please make them available to people like me who like GTA02 BETTER than GTA04 (for Calypso GSM firmware hacking reasons). One way to do that would be to ship the GTA02 PCBA back to Goldelico who will then save these parts for resale to the interested people. MS ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- -- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de wrote: but if nikolaus is ok with that (re-stocking the used GTA02 boards, that is :-), that's certainly solution. As I understand it, he already does that. - what's so hackable about the calypso fw? as far as i recall, it was a major afford to get an updated fw and make it flashable. Certain individuals in the Om community are holding personal copies of that firmware in semi-source form, or more precisely, in the form of object modules with full symbolic information (names of functions, global variables, etc) - not quite the same as full source, but pretty close in terms of hackability. Unfortunately the greedy bastards are refusing to share, hence extracting the ware from them requires the use of a soldering iron, inserted rectally. If anyone is willing to perform such an operation for the benefit of the community, I can supply the names of the suspects and my best available information as to their physical whereabouts. Alternatively, there exists the TSM30 firmware source: it's a different Calypso phone, and that code is full source and readily available from Cryptome.org and other sites. Unfortunately the TSM30 hardware has been very heavily modified from the Leonardo* baseline (whereas the GSM part of GTA02 is almost identical with Leonardo), hence backporting the TSM30 source to run on a Leonardo-style Calypso subsystem like GTA02 would take a lot more work than what we could do if we had the real GTA02 version of the semi-source. But the backport of the TSM30 to Leonardo/GTA02 does not seem impossible, just really difficult, and I am hoping to find the time some day to tackle that project - in my view, it is an ethically superior approach than OsmocomBB. [*] Leonardo is TI's reference design for the Calypso/Iota/Rita chipset; liberated Leonardo board schematics and chip docs for all components are on my public FTP site. There is also a possibility that someone in the People's Republic of China may have a copy of the same semi-source deliverable which FIC got from TI (that exact same deliverable or a very very similar one must have been given to *all* makers of Calypso-based feature phones), but who would be more open to sharing than the Om bastards. Any comrades in the PRC reading this, you know whom to email. and how much less hackable is the new gsm chip's fw? We shall only know if Nikolaus were to grow the b*lls to burn or shred his German passport, apply for citizenship in the Principality of Sealand, the Republic of New Poseidia or some other (micro)nation in which NDAs have no legal validity and in which all intellectual creations of every kind are automatically and unconditionally in the public domain, and publicly share all materials which he has received from the maker of whatever GSM/UMTS module he has used in the GTA04. If and when Nikolaus does the above, I shall gladly and immediately buy a GTA04 - but not till then. MS ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
On Thursday 01 March 2012 13:35:34 Gerald A wrote: Hi, On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 5:45 AM, Al Johnson openm...@mazikeen.demon.co.ukwrote: On Wednesday 29 February 2012 11:55:46 Gerald A wrote: I've had a few bluetooth keyboards and a bluetooth mouse paired and function with my Neo. I can't remember what software rev it was, but if it works in the cranky old stuff I was using, I'm sure it should work in a later version. That's not a safe assumption. I know SHR used to work with my Stowaway keyboard, but I also remember updates that broke it. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it worked in some particular (later) version. The OP seemed to be wondering if it had worked at all, and indeed it did. Did the updates break it and it never got fixed? I don't remember, and I've not tested it in a recent image. At the time it wasn't something that was tested before release, and there were only a couple of us that spotted it. When it worked it worked well though, so it may be fine. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
what you think would bring forward the Openmoko community Hardware: One-man-show Nikolaus Software: One-man-show Radek I am praying each night, that both of you fasten your seatbelt daily. Instead a participating community we converted to simple consumers waiting for news and order buttons. We dont need new features, but a new spirit first hand. Poor pre-order numbers of GTA04 proove this. Openmoko was a combination of several things: - Open hardware. - A phone running Free Software. - A phone running standard GNU/Linux software (e.g. X-Windows). IIUC there are many more people interested in the second than in the first. Stefan PS: There's a general expectation that open hardware will run Free software, but w.r.t open hardware's GPU that doesn't seem to be very often the case. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
On Wednesday 29 February 2012 11:55:46 Gerald A wrote: Hi, On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 5:45 AM, Giacomo 'giotti' Mariani giacomomari...@yahoo.it wrote: I own a similar one ( http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-Pocket-Bluetooth-Keyboard-PC-PDA-Phone-/2 60694344470 ) but I've never been able to use it on my freerunner. I get it paired (and some traffic is visible hcidump on SHR) but it never worked as input device. Did you have any (successful) experience? I've had a few bluetooth keyboards and a bluetooth mouse paired and function with my Neo. I can't remember what software rev it was, but if it works in the cranky old stuff I was using, I'm sure it should work in a later version. That's not a safe assumption. I know SHR used to work with my Stowaway keyboard, but I also remember updates that broke it. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
we get sportive spirit by competition. So the question is, with whom we (this community) are competing? Maybe better to ask, who is the intended user of free phone? Below I'm speaking for myself (sorry for that), but I think that my situation is not that uncommon. I'm in free software for about 15 years. Long ago, there was many free time and enthusiasm to move things forward. Over years, priority is shifting elsewhere - job, family, kids, you-know-all-that. So contribution lowers to near-zero level :(. I still use free software (Debian) on all my computers, because - (1) it works perfectly for daily needs, it is comfortable to work with it after many-years experience, and - (2) if/when it becomes possible, I can occasionally hack on it, tune it, and do fancy things. With phone, I'm actually looking for the same. When openmoko was announced, I was very excited. But one of my colegues looked and said, Calm down. It won't fit real life. To be useful, mobile phone must be reliable. You won't be happy with missed calls from your boss while your phone is dist-upgrading. I still ordered Freerunner, however I was unable to use it - for very this reason. So to be useful for me, free phone must - (1) have _absolutely_ _reliable_ basic phone functionality: no excuse for lost call/SMS or poor sound quality - (2) don't require hacking to get things that one expects from today's smartphone, this includes browsing web, looking for places nearby, map navigation, music playback, take a photo, calendar/reminders/alarms and similar things - (3) have more or less standard linux environment that I'm familiar with and can occasionally hack on ... and yes (0) have hardware keyboard ... N900/maemo was very close... but it is dead now, and it has enough bugs in core functionality provided by closed components to force me away after 1.5 years. Android could look close, but it annoys me every day with tons of silly things, most important one is it's broken multitasking (that depends on checkpointing current state that is so difficult to implement that even core applications have it incomplete - even not talking about what is written by joe developer) So what to use? Nothing to use... Btw, I once blogged abot this at http://yoush.homelinux.org:8079/tech/life-after-n900 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
So what to use? Nothing to use... We should look for what comes after phones and tablets. What's next? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
Am 01.03.2012 um 13:28 schrieb Wolfgang Spraul: So what to use? Nothing to use... We should look for what comes after phones and tablets. What's next? Next generation phones and tablets :) It is difficult to develop something totally new. (My standard methapher: each revolution looks like evolution if you have a sufficiently distant point of view). Like cars. Every year there are many new ones. But each time, they have more power, more reliability, more safety, more automatisation. Or they just look differently. For phones and tablets it means they will increase in screen resolution, increase in processing power and networking speed, increase in battery life, increase how easily they can be used. The last one is the most interesting since it includes both hardware and software. Breaking down this evolution path into small revolutions for the Openmoko project means that there will come a OMAP4/5/6. There will be LTE. There will be Glonass/Galileo. There will be new case designs. Maybe one with keyboard. On the software side: QtMoko will become even better than it already is. SHR will become even better than it already is. But we have to work heavily against entropy. And work one step after the other... And help those who are already on this path (e.g Radek, Lukas, Neil, and numerous others) to go forward. Make big leaps... Unfortunately some of these steps cost a lot of real money. This needs the project to be economically viable. Therefore it is important to spread of the platform. Having 1 month left over for subscribing to the (extended) group tour is a good point to draw an intermediate view. This morning we now have 34% which is one third of the required number of units (for the given price). This is a good increment from the 23% or so we did have right before FOSDEM when we decided to extend the subscription time frame. So the next goal is to crack the 40%! One more thing: some 5% rebate seats are still available since some generous subscribers did choose no early bird rebate. BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
In my opinion there are two underestimated issues: - community organization - software developement Community organization Look at us, we are a higly fragmented community. There are various small teams working, most of the time, on different projects. As we know this is a side effect of working in the FLOSS area, but notice the size of what we are talking about: a unique hardware supported by a (relatively) small community without the partnership of any kind of... big sponsor. Do we want to bring forward the community? Well with these numbers the fragmentation among the community is the most counterproductive thing at all. The community must be solid and compact, everyone in here should give his contribution to a common project. With this wide diversity it is difficult to see the route, to understand what is the target, what is the big plan. It is sure a positive thing to have so many ideas and projects, but is it really useful to have them so sparse and fragmented? They should instead be part of a big project. Thinking at it, the fragmentation and the lack of clear ideas and targets IMHO are what do not bring in new users and developers. Which leads to the second issue... Software Developement We do not have a compact group of developers. Too many different projects and not focused on the real issues of our little hardware. Do we want to compete with Android and iOS? Ok well, but to do so we must choose a unique platform to develop, a unique community driven distribution to put on the GTAxx and it must become reliable. I think it is essential because our community is small, and because it is probably the key to acquire new users and new developers. To date, take a new user, a possible new developer, who takes a look in the wiki. It is a mess! Wich distro to use? Where can he give a hand? Which bugs need a fix? Who knows! It seems there is no order. There is the hardware, the GTAxxs, but the software is in a fog. So concentrate on a distro and develop it. But it is not enough. To make simple the newcomers' life the software should be reliable and well known. Wich distro do you think a new user will prefer to use on the GTAxx? The one with Debian inside (oh Debian, he uses it on his pc!) or the unknown one? But also the distro must have reliable basic functions for the daily use: no calls no party! To conclude, I think it could be really more efficient to have a community focused on one single project, solving every bugs and bringing in new features. To try to compete with the great mobile names out there I think we should choose a unique platform for the GTA04, and if it is well known chances are that there will be more users and developers. Our community must be reorganized, compacted. We need one big project and a clear target. Regards Joif ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
Hi, On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 5:45 AM, Al Johnson openm...@mazikeen.demon.co.ukwrote: On Wednesday 29 February 2012 11:55:46 Gerald A wrote: I've had a few bluetooth keyboards and a bluetooth mouse paired and function with my Neo. I can't remember what software rev it was, but if it works in the cranky old stuff I was using, I'm sure it should work in a later version. That's not a safe assumption. I know SHR used to work with my Stowaway keyboard, but I also remember updates that broke it. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it worked in some particular (later) version. The OP seemed to be wondering if it had worked at all, and indeed it did. Did the updates break it and it never got fixed? I actually think that the Neo image has been left to wither, so I'm not sure I could even help if that is the case -- I don't currently have a FreeRunner. Thanks, Gerald ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
Hi, Am 27. Februar 2012 11:51 schrieb Nikita V. Youshchenko yo...@debian.org: So I would like to encourage to share what you are working on (kernel? driver? user space?) and what you think would bring forward the Openmoko community a small or big step.. Any idea is welcome (even if you think we already know about it). If anything is welcome then... I've left OpenMoko commutiny long ago, but I'm really disapponted by today's devices and I want to return. Unfortunately N900 changed my mind and now I consider hardware qwerty keyboard not an option but a must. I will immediately order any GTA04 successor that will have qwerty keyboard. I was about to write the same thing. I own a HP Pre3 with a keyboard, and I dont want to miss one on my next phone. But today, the phone droped on the floor from a height of one meter. The front glass broke.. That reminded me of my GTA02. I could give the phone to my kids, and nothing broke. So finally, a tough case and a keyboad :). Since I'll send the pre3 for repair, I will reactivate the GTA02 again. regards Andreas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
El día Wednesday, February 29, 2012 a las 09:05:11AM +0100, Andreas Pokorny escribió: If anything is welcome then... I've left OpenMoko commutiny long ago, but I'm really disapponted by today's devices and I want to return. Unfortunately N900 changed my mind and now I consider hardware qwerty keyboard not an option but a must. I will immediately order any GTA04 successor that will have qwerty keyboard. a hardware qwerty keyboard consumes a lot of space in the surface of the device; better would be a fingerfriendly touch screen qwerty or an USB keyboard which attaches good and stable to the device somehow on the right side of the FR; just my 2 pesos cubanos matthias -- Matthias Apitz e g...@unixarea.de - w http://www.unixarea.de/ UNIX since V7 on PDP-11, UNIX on mainframe since ESER 1055 (IBM /370) UNIX on x86 since SVR4.2 UnixWare 2.1.2, FreeBSD since 2.2.5 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
Am 29.02.2012 um 09:05 schrieb Andreas Pokorny: Hi, Am 27. Februar 2012 11:51 schrieb Nikita V. Youshchenko yo...@debian.org: So I would like to encourage to share what you are working on (kernel? driver? user space?) and what you think would bring forward the Openmoko community a small or big step.. Any idea is welcome (even if you think we already know about it). If anything is welcome then... I've left OpenMoko commutiny long ago, but I'm really disapponted by today's devices and I want to return. Unfortunately N900 changed my mind and now I consider hardware qwerty keyboard not an option but a must. I will immediately order any GTA04 successor that will have qwerty keyboard. I was about to write the same thing. I own a HP Pre3 with a keyboard, and I dont want to miss one on my next phone. But today, the phone droped on May I ask why you need a (mechanical) keyboard? The reason why we don't cry hurray, we add one in the next release is that it is *very* complicated to get one that works well (you most likely don't want a bad one just to have it). The first aspect is mechanics. A keyboard should be sliding in and out or otherwise the device becomes much bigger than dictated by the display (which should also become bigger). Next thing is: what is a really good keyboard? How much pressure, which button size, etc. Then, we have to define a keyboard layout. QWERTY or ABCDEF. Add numeric keys or make them Num+QWERTY to save one row of keys. And to unsimplify, we need a US, a UK, a German, a French, an Italian layout and maybe Chinese, Japanese etc. This is doable by exchanging keycaps or keymats - but we have to stock and provide several different ones. Finally, designing a really good and working keyboard is almost as expensive as designing a new injection mould... Compare this with readily available small bluetooth keyboards in the 25-50 EUR range... So we simply recommend to purchase such a thing because we never can get one such cheap. All this could be so simple if we have a software keyboard on the LCD :) Just choose what you want by software. Choose between different input methods. No hardware changes needed. Robust against water, and keycap wear off. This is why we try to avoid making any keyboard. So let us understand what the issues are with a onscreen keyboard and try to improve that. Let's join forces of this community and develop the best and really useable on-screen keyboard in the world! Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
hey E.g. * QtMoko SHR vs. Android iOS Win Mobile etc.! * GTA04's flexibility and hw-modifiability vs. any commercial device! * the art of self modifiable 3D-printed case vs. take what you get! I think you would need to fine tune that example. There is at least one android version that work rather nicely on the freerunner, not good battery life being the one draw back. I don't think you should be making an enemy of android. -- David Matthews m...@dmatthews.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
Am 29.02.2012 um 10:20 schrieb dmatthews.org: hey E.g. * QtMoko SHR vs. Android iOS Win Mobile etc.! * GTA04's flexibility and hw-modifiability vs. any commercial device! * the art of self modifiable 3D-printed case vs. take what you get! I think you would need to fine tune that example. There is at least one android version that work rather nicely on the freerunner, not good battery life being the one draw back. I don't think you should be making an enemy of android. Yes, you are right. And maybe it is the main problem of our community... Android is not a real enemy, but #1. So whom to compete with? And why? What I therefore think we should support is: http://fsfe.org/campaigns/android/android.en.html BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
On Feb 27, Nikita V. Youshchenko wrote: today's devices and I want to return. Unfortunately N900 changed my mind and now I consider hardware qwerty keyboard not an option but a must. I will immediately order any GTA04 successor that will have qwerty keyboard. using a bluetooth keyboard might be an option (which is what I'm considering) like these, unfortuneately they are QWERTZ and not QWERTY, but that's only labeling... http://www.pearl.de/a-PX2563-1002.shtml?query=bluetooth+keyboard does anyone know similar keyboards with real QWERTY layout ? Harald -- I hope to die ___ _ before I *have* to use Microsoft Word., 0--,|/OOO\ Donald E. Knuth, 02-Oct-2001 in Tuebingen._/ / /OOO\ \ \/OOO\ \ O|// \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Harald Koenig // / \\ \ koe...@tat.physik.uni-tuebingen.de ^ ^ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
[cut] does anyone know similar keyboards with real QWERTY layout ? This one on picture seems to be QWERTY [1], however the description says it is QWERTZ. You need to ask them... [1] http://www.pearl.de/a-PX4806-1002.shtml -- Patryk LeadMan Benderz Linux Registered User #377521 () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
[cut] does anyone know similar keyboards with real QWERTY layout ? ...or this one [1]. Generally google returns a lot of information on this topic. [1] http://www.uberreview.com/2010/05/tiny-bluetooth-qwerty-keyboard-for-smartphones.htm -- Patryk LeadMan Benderz Linux Registered User #377521 () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
May I ask why you need a (mechanical) keyboard? Because typing text on hardware keyboard (at least, one on N900 or on SonyEricsson sk18i that I'm using currently) is 10 times faster than doing so on any onscreen keyboard I've seen. Having keyboard actually turns a phone (i.e. device to do calls, plus occasional short message or short web search query) into mobile computer that can be used for convenient chatting, writing large e-mails and even documents, work in unix shell, programming, etc. The difference is dramatic. The first aspect is mechanics. A keyboard should be sliding in and out or otherwise the device becomes much bigger than dictated by the display (which should also become bigger). Next thing is: what is a really good keyboard? How much pressure, which button size, etc. n900 had all that good. Then, we have to define a keyboard layout. QWERTY or ABCDEF. Add numeric keys or make them Num+QWERTY to save one row of keys. And to unsimplify, we need a US, a UK, a German, a French, an Italian layout and maybe Chinese, Japanese etc. This is doable by exchanging keycaps or keymats - but we have to stock and provide several different ones. Layout could be changed via software. What is actually printed on keys, does not matter much, it is changable on user side. Finally, designing a really good and working keyboard is almost as expensive as designing a new injection mould... Isn't it possible, under some conditions, to reuse parts from phones already on market? Compare this with readily available small bluetooth keyboards in the 25-50 EUR range... So we simply recommend to purchase such a thing because we never can get one such cheap. Two devices is not the same as single device. We are talking about a phone = device that user takes with him almost everywhere. It is also possible to use a netbook. But it is not the same as using a phone. Bluetooth keyboard can become an option only if coupled with a case that binds phone and keyboard together, and still fits into pocket. So it is still usable e.g. when standing in crowded transport. All this could be so simple if we have a software keyboard on the LCD :) Just choose what you want by software. Choose between different input methods. No hardware changes needed. Robust against water, and keycap wear off. ... and inability to use it for anything larger than yes-no-style answers. This is why we try to avoid making any keyboard. That's sad. It means no devices for me from your camp ... :( So let us understand what the issues are with a onscreen keyboard and try to improve that Conflicts for space on tiny (touch)screen with everything else. Does not feel 3d, thus too easy to touch neighbour key. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
[cut] does anyone know similar keyboards with real QWERTY layout ? ...or this one [1]. Generally google returns a lot of information on this topic. [1] http://www.uberreview.com/2010/05/tiny-bluetooth-qwerty-keyboard-for-smartphones.htm I own a similar one (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-Pocket-Bluetooth-Keyboard-PC-PDA-Phone-/260694344470) but I've never been able to use it on my freerunner. I get it paired (and some traffic is visible hcidump on SHR) but it never worked as input device. Did you have any (successful) experience? Regards, Giacomo -- ## giacomo 'giotti' mariani gpg --keyserver pool.sks-keyservers.net --recv-key 0x99bfa859 O ASCII ribbon campaign: stop HTML mail www.asciiribbon.org ## ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
Same here. No success with http://www.dealextreme.com/p/bluetooth-v2-0-wireless-keyboard-with-protective-case-for-apple-ipad-black-55976 on qtmoko. Debian not tested yet.. Giacomo 'giotti' Mariani писал 29.02.2012 14:45: [cut] does anyone know similar keyboards with real QWERTY layout ? ...or this one [1]. Generally google returns a lot of information on this topic. [1] http://www.uberreview.com/2010/05/tiny-bluetooth-qwerty-keyboard-for-smartphones.htm I own a similar one (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-Pocket-Bluetooth-Keyboard-PC-PDA-Phone-/260694344470) but I've never been able to use it on my freerunner. I get it paired (and some traffic is visible hcidump on SHR) but it never worked as input device. Did you have any (successful) experience? Regards, Giacomo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
Android is not a real enemy, but #1. So whom to compete with? And why? What I therefore think we should support is: http://fsfe.org/campaigns/android/android.en.html Yes that makes more sense; while I'm at it my 2 cents regarding more general problems.I know this has been discussed already and I understand the financial angle, but the freerunner screen compared to the latest and greatest No matter how much better you are making the rest of the hardware, with the freerunner screen you have a device that is not anywhere near top league. -- David Matthews m...@dmatthews.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
On 28.02.2012 21:22, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Does anyone know how many units have been subscribed in total? And when it is planned to become available? Nikolaus Hi, yes. I saw one of those at FOSDEM. They didn't produce any tablet, but used the chinese Zenithink C71 [0] tablet, which is available for about 80€. Though, they managed to get a FOSS kernel running on it. Lukas signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
On Tuesday 28 February 2012 21:22:40 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 28.02.2012 um 09:47 schrieb Davide Scaini: I think that the success of spark [1] explains the failure of GTA04. My 2 cents d [1] http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2012/02/spark-pre-orders-closed.html May be, but I am not sure. A 7 inch tablet (and much worse pixel per inch) without UMTS and no GPS and other gimmicks is not really a smartphone platform like the GTA04... The price of 200 EUR/USD is indeed good and I still wonder how they can make it such cheap. Except if they produce thousands of units. It's no secret the same hardware is widely sold as an android device for ~half that. From http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2012/02/spark-answers.html Q: Is the Spark based on the Zenithink C71? A: Yes. The Internet is a clever bunch indeed. Took people all of about 5 minutes to figure that one out. :) Q: Does that mean I will be able to install Plasma Active on a C71 device I purchased elsewhere? A: Yes, that's all in the spirit of openness. However, if you break it, you get to keep both pieces. :) Keep in mind that by purchasing a Spark you will help drive development of Plasma Active, Mer and the push towards an open ARM ecosystem. Q: There are no GPL compliant sources for the C71, right? A: We are aware of this, and we've been working on it. It's been one of the hardest things to accomplish in the entire project. Does anyone know how many units have been subscribed in total? There's no exact figure given, but the link in the grandparent suggests thousands. And when it is planned to become available? Q: When will Spark start shipping? A: We expect to start shipping Sparks to you starting in May 2012. We have a lot of pieces to coordinate, and not just technical issues like the OS image and the content add-on store, but things like packaging design, manufacturing, shipping, import, retail channel coordination. So far we're on track, but I don't want to offer a more precise date than May until we pull the trigger on production. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
Hi, On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 5:45 AM, Giacomo 'giotti' Mariani giacomomari...@yahoo.it wrote: I own a similar one ( http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-Pocket-Bluetooth-Keyboard-PC-PDA-Phone-/260694344470 ) but I've never been able to use it on my freerunner. I get it paired (and some traffic is visible hcidump on SHR) but it never worked as input device. Did you have any (successful) experience? I've had a few bluetooth keyboards and a bluetooth mouse paired and function with my Neo. I can't remember what software rev it was, but if it works in the cranky old stuff I was using, I'm sure it should work in a later version. The instructions, IIRC, were a bit cryptic to get it going, but it works great. The only complaint I had at the time was that the onscreen keyboard would sometimes insist on hanging around, and that was eating up way too much screen real estate. So, there have been some successes. I might dig my device out of hibernation and try to give it a bit of love -- if I do, be assured I'll look at the BT stuff. Thanks, Gerald ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
Hello, On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 3:27 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: [Leadup discussion pruned] May I ask why you need a (mechanical) keyboard? Some people like it. While I do like a mechanical keyboard, I find the ones in most mobile devices too small. I can touch type, so now I have to relearn all over to thumb type, which I don't like so much. And, onscreen keyboards suck. :S They are fine for typing a few words, but not e-mails or conversations. One thing that is important in a mobile device is tradeoffs. The big plus of such a device is that it can fit in your pocket. I haven't yet seen a decent keyboard that is foldable (but lots of crap ones). So, in my opinion, the question shouldn't be do you want/need a mechanical keyboard, but rather would adding this bring the subscription rate over 100%? If it would, even if it adds to the cost, it's something to consider. If it's only going to be a feature that will bring subscriptions along 10%, then it should be something considered for a future model. Thanks, Gerald ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
Am 29.02.2012 um 18:05 schrieb Gerald A: Hello, On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 3:27 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: [Leadup discussion pruned] May I ask why you need a (mechanical) keyboard? Some people like it. Yes, I know and want to better understand why. It looks as if they like them because they feel better than on-screen keyboards. While I do like a mechanical keyboard, I find the ones in most mobile devices too small. I can touch type, so now I have to relearn all over to thumb type, which I don't like so much. And, onscreen keyboards suck. :S They are fine for typing a few words, but not e-mails or conversations. One thing that is important in a mobile device is tradeoffs. The big plus of such a device is that it can fit in your pocket. I haven't yet seen a decent keyboard that is foldable (but lots of crap ones). So, in my opinion, the question shouldn't be do you want/need a mechanical keyboard, but rather would adding this bring the subscription rate over 100%? If it would, even if it adds to the cost, it's something to consider. If it's only going to be a feature that will bring subscriptions along 10%, then it should be something considered for a future model. Well, I would not put too much focus on the group tour subscriptions only. For the group tour there is neither enough time to develop a mechanical keyboard nor add it to the device. So even if it would increase subscription by 1000%, it is not possible without delaying the project by 1-2 years. And, I expect that the cost is simply beyond imagination... The reason is that we can't go to some catalog distributor like DigiKey or Mouser and buy a keyboard module at 5 EUR. It has to be designed and tested. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
So the question is, with whom we (this community) are competing? E.g. * QtMoko SHR vs. Android iOS Win Mobile etc.! * GTA04's flexibility and hw-modifiability vs. any commercial device! * the art of self modifiable 3D-printed case vs. take what you get! imo, android _is_ the main opponent. let's face it, openmoko has left its mark in the archives and everything in it's wake will inevitably evoke those reminiscences, thus linking any further effort to the geek phone (and as we all know, it's not entirely unjustified). i am convinced that people readile buying symbian, baida or windows phones do not even remotely consider purchasing a GTAxx -- the user base GTAxx are targeting to a large extend intersects with those buying an android phone intending to jailbreak it (or whatever the right term may be, i am not familiar with the scene's vernacular ;-) those are people somewhat prepared to take a risk with their phone and to invest time to make it fit their demands. taking myself as an example, i currently own an n900 and without any intention of replacing it in a near future, look around for devices qualifying -- and any possible device runs android, just because it is closest to being open. i am not that much satisfied with maemo's openess, but it's still better than anything i've seem from android so far, and android's openess is much better tahn anything else on today's amrtphone market. despite supporting the open hardware idea and cherishing its ideals, i don't think the vast majority of potential GTAxx customers value it so high as to let it tip the scales in favour of GTAxx -- so for anyone not just looking for a truly open device, GTAxx can't really compete with today's middle class devices (apple, samsung), or rather, GTAxx shouldn't be pitched against those devices, but rather see itslef as a class of its own. so, to conclude and repeat, software-wise android is the main opponent -- hardware-wise it's better to see GTAxx as class of it's own w/o real competitor. if GTAxx runs android, it will be just another android smartphone, albeit with the advantage of faster updates and longer support, since you're not forced to wait for the vendor to release newer firmware or even to decide, if that device should recieve updates at all anymore. supporting fsfe's replicant os initiative might be interesting, but besides other questions, i fear it will peter out soon without noticeable effect ... cheers ps: maybe my english is too limited, but self modifiable 3D-printed case sounds like it would modify itself, morphing into ... odd shapes ;-) -- Schon vor dem Come-Back von Modern Talking wusste ich: Dieter Bohlen ist der Preis der Freiheit. Heinz Rudolf Kunze ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
HW keyboard was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
i too own a n900 and i too are looking for devices with a hwardware keyboard included. i used to be a big fan of graffiti (v1), but after using the n900 with its keyboard for two years now i have to say, it's no match. writing is much faster, using a shell for complex tasks was not really an option with an onscreen keyboard and best of all, it does not use up precious screen space. a bt keyboard is not really an option: - it's just another piece of stuff you have to carry and remember - using bt needs power (i know, the builtin hw keyboard does too, but as much?) - keyboard needs power - it's not necessarily reliable (there's a recent report of failure and i remember others) - how do you hold both phone and keyboard in, say, a bus or the train? with the builtin keyboard it's just one piece and holding and typing is one. while i understand your points, it doesn't really address the request but just stresses GTA04's limitations ;-) cheers Hi, Am 27. Februar 2012 11:51 schrieb Nikita V. Youshchenko yo...@debian.org: So I would like to encourage to share what you are working on (kernel? driver? user space?) and what you think would bring forward the Openmoko community a small or big step.. Any idea is welcome (even if you think we already know about it). If anything is welcome then... I've left OpenMoko commutiny long ago, but I'm really disapponted by today's devices and I want to return. Unfortunately N900 changed my mind and now I consider hardware qwerty keyboard not an option but a must. I will immediately order any GTA04 successor that will have qwerty keyboard. I was about to write the same thing. I own a HP Pre3 with a keyboard, and I dont want to miss one on my next phone. But today, the phone droped on May I ask why you need a (mechanical) keyboard? The reason why we don't cry hurray, we add one in the next release is that it is *very* complicated to get one that works well (you most likely don't want a bad one just to have it). The first aspect is mechanics. A keyboard should be sliding in and out or otherwise the device becomes much bigger than dictated by the display (which should also become bigger). Next thing is: what is a really good keyboard? How much pressure, which button size, etc. Then, we have to define a keyboard layout. QWERTY or ABCDEF. Add numeric keys or make them Num+QWERTY to save one row of keys. And to unsimplify, we need a US, a UK, a German, a French, an Italian layout and maybe Chinese, Japanese etc. This is doable by exchanging keycaps or keymats - but we have to stock and provide several different ones. Finally, designing a really good and working keyboard is almost as expensive as designing a new injection mould... Compare this with readily available small bluetooth keyboards in the 25-50 EUR range... So we simply recommend to purchase such a thing because we never can get one such cheap. All this could be so simple if we have a software keyboard on the LCD :) Just choose what you want by software. Choose between different input methods. No hardware changes needed. Robust against water, and keycap wear off. This is why we try to avoid making any keyboard. So let us understand what the issues are with a onscreen keyboard and try to improve that. Let's join forces of this community and develop the best and really useable on-screen keyboard in the world! Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Schon vor dem Come-Back von Modern Talking wusste ich: Dieter Bohlen ist der Preis der Freiheit. Heinz Rudolf Kunze ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: HW keyboard was: Re: How to bring forward the community?
The biggest benefit of a hardware keyboard is that you don't need to type as accurate, touching other keys while pressing one does not affect that much. (If it does you can feel it.) To hit a key on a touchscreen keyboard needs the center of the finger to be inside the buttons region, on a hardware keyboard it's the highest pressure which defines the key to be pressed. On small hardware keyboard it's possible to write different letters without really lifting the thumb form it (it's also possible without moving, by rolling the thumb sidewards). People simply prefer hardware keyboard because they like to do less mistypings and see the complete screen. Does the touchscreen provide pressure data? Using pressure data could possibly make at least aiming the keys similar like on hardware keyboards, maybe I could type more accurate this way. So let us understand what the issues are with a onscreen keyboard and try to improve that. Let's join forces of this community and develop the best and really useable on-screen keyboard in the world! Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
On 02/29/2012 06:50 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 29.02.2012 um 18:05 schrieb Gerald A: Some people like it. Yes, I know and want to better understand why. It looks as if they like them because they feel better than on-screen keyboards. I think this is precisely it, actually. Maybe you just haven't realized how important feel actually is for this kind of thing, at least for some people. When I type, either on a (closer-to-)full-size keyboard like on my netbook, or on a smaller mobile keyboard like on my NanoNote or E51, I do it mostly by feel - I slide my fingers across the keyboard, feeling each key as I pass it (or maybe more accurately, the edges between them), and then stop at the right key and apply more pressure, until I feel it has been clicked (there's usually a threshold). All of that is done in my fingers, by touch/feel, which means they can fairly easily learn how to do it more or less by themselves - leaving my mind free for the task at hand (maybe except for the rarely used keys that my fingers haven't learned yet). Contrast with an on-screen keyboard, where I have to hover my fingers above the screen instead of sliding across, and touch the screen to click a key - which provides no tactile feedback for which key I'm currently above, and no threshold that tells me when the key is clicked. That forces me to look at the keyboard instead of at what I'm doing with it, and spend some concentration on the typing itself - and doesn't allow my fingers to rest on the keyboard. On-screen keyboards also tend to be even smaller than physical ones, even if only because you have to also see what you're actually working on. Another thing is that on small keyboards like my NN, I don't always need to move my fingers to hit two separate keys - since my thumbs are larger than the keys, I can stop my thumb near an edge, press on one key, then just tilt the finger a bit and press the other. Since I can feel both the edge and which key was pressed, that works fairly well, with little thought. Now, the NN's keyboard is hardly the best ever - but it still works better for me than on-screen keyboards, where I usually have to resort to a stylus to have much chance of getting things done with any speed. -- Regards, Frode P.S. I'm actually buying a GTA04 anyway - I'm already in the Group Tour - as the keyboard isn't *that* important to me personally, as long as I don't need to do too much typing on the device itself. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 23:09:28 +0100 EdorFaus edorf...@xepher.net wrote: On 02/29/2012 06:50 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 29.02.2012 um 18:05 schrieb Gerald A: Some people like it. Yes, I know and want to better understand why. It looks as if they like them because they feel better than on-screen keyboards. I think this is precisely it, actually. Maybe you just haven't realized how important feel actually is for this kind of thing, at least for some people. When I type, either on a (closer-to-)full-size keyboard like on my netbook, or on a smaller mobile keyboard like on my NanoNote or E51, I do it mostly by feel - I slide my fingers across the keyboard, feeling each key as I pass it (or maybe more accurately, the edges between them), and then stop at the right key and apply more pressure, until I feel it has been clicked (there's usually a threshold). All of that is done in my fingers, by touch/feel, which means they can fairly easily learn how to do it more or less by themselves - leaving my mind free for the task at hand (maybe except for the rarely used keys that my fingers haven't learned yet). I wonder how much of this could be added to an on-screen keyboard. Certainly it would never be as good as physical keyboard could be, however... The touchscreen can measure pressure, so we could tell the difference between finger presence and finger activation (strong pressure). As you slide your thumbs we could make a short vibration was you pass the center of each key with a slightly longer vibration for the J and F keys. When you press, a short double-vibration maybe. As the touchscreen can only detect one finger you couldn't have both thumbs down at the same time, which is a definite negative - however we could probably do better than the current crop of soft-keyboards. NeilBrown signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] How to bring forward the community?
On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:38:23 + Neil Jerram n...@ossau.homelinux.net wrote: For me, the fun is in trying to put bits of software together to make a useful and interesting phone/gadget, and in understanding (up to a point) how it all works. Me too. It isn't about being better than Android, or free from being spied on or free to choose, though all of that is valuable. It is about having a toy to play with and to learn from - one that I can actually use as well so there are concrete outcomes from my efforts. That last bit is important. I cannot imagine myself buying a nano-note or a Spark because I cannot imagine what I would ever really use them. Without 3G the mobility is almost irrelevant to me, so the small size becomes just an inconvenience. NeilBrown signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
Am 28.02.2012 um 09:07 schrieb openm...@pulster.de (Christoph Pulster): what you think would bring forward the Openmoko community Hardware: One-man-show Nikolaus Software: One-man-show Radek Well, there are more People behind (e.g. Neil, Lukas, Christoph, Rene, ...), but... I am praying each night, that both of you fasten your seatbelt daily. Instead a participating community we converted to simple consumers waiting for news and order buttons. We dont need new features, but a new spirit first hand. Poor pre-order numbers of GTA04 proove this. ... Yes, I think your observation is right. But where has the general Spirit gone? Is this indicating that partially Open source has won? Or cheap devices built in China are the most important? Or is it lack of spare time? Or are we just watching how iAndroid is dominating the world? What would we need to get New Spirit into our Community? Nikolaus Christoph ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
I think that the success of spark [1] explains the failure of GTA04. My 2 cents d [1] http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2012/02/spark-pre-orders-closed.html On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 9:42 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Am 28.02.2012 um 09:07 schrieb openm...@pulster.de (Christoph Pulster): what you think would bring forward the Openmoko community Hardware: One-man-show Nikolaus Software: One-man-show Radek Well, there are more People behind (e.g. Neil, Lukas, Christoph, Rene, ...), but... I am praying each night, that both of you fasten your seatbelt daily. Instead a participating community we converted to simple consumers waiting for news and order buttons. We dont need new features, but a new spirit first hand. Poor pre-order numbers of GTA04 proove this. ... Yes, I think your observation is right. But where has the general Spirit gone? Is this indicating that partially Open source has won? Or cheap devices built in China are the most important? Or is it lack of spare time? Or are we just watching how iAndroid is dominating the world? What would we need to get New Spirit into our Community? Nikolaus Christoph ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 12:12, Christoph Pulster openm...@pulster.de wrote: What would we need to get New Spirit into our Community? We need courage bashing Apple and Android as the evil, sucking our datas and brains. Giving as the feeling of heros, only left free human beings, victors of Goliaths. A new platine is not enough, even with zillions of features included. We need a story together with it. We need a myth. Perhaps we could start a new myth! The OLPC hardware has the possibility to make a mesh network. Can we do the same? Can we build a mobile Internet, perhaps using store and forward? Since the Internet is being broken down, we need a new one. Once upon a time, there were BBS-es that created networks using store-and-forward (anyone recall the name?). Also, 27Mc networks were built using the same techniques. We should do the same using BT and WiFi! F*ck the Mafiaa! Christ van Willegen -- 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
Am 28.02.2012 um 09:47 schrieb Davide Scaini: I think that the success of spark [1] explains the failure of GTA04. My 2 cents d [1] http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2012/02/spark-pre-orders-closed.html May be, but I am not sure. A 7 inch tablet (and much worse pixel per inch) without UMTS and no GPS and other gimmicks is not really a smartphone platform like the GTA04... The price of 200 EUR/USD is indeed good and I still wonder how they can make it such cheap. Except if they produce thousands of units. Does anyone know how many units have been subscribed in total? And when it is planned to become available? Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
Christ van Willegen cvwille...@gmail.com писал(а) в своём письме Tue, 28 Feb 2012 13:35:50 +0100: The OLPC hardware has the possibility to make a mesh network. Can we do the same? Yes, we can. Everybody can. IIRC they use 802.11s which is in linux kernel. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
Am 28.02.2012 um 12:12 schrieb Christoph Pulster: What would we need to get New Spirit into our Community? We need courage bashing Apple and Android as the evil, sucking our datas and brains. Giving as the feeling of heros, only left free human beings, victors of Goliaths. The aestethics of home-brewn projects is disattracting even geeks nowadays. Openmoko Inc. did quite a good job here, hiding all the tech stuff in beta-status under a stylish mobile idea, calling it a mixture of revolution and art. A new platine is not enough, even with zillions of features included. We need a story together with it. We need a myth. Hi Christoph, after sleeping a night (and fastening my seat belts as every morning), I think you have hit the key point: we get sportive spirit by competition. So the question is, with whom we (this community) are competing? E.g. * QtMoko SHR vs. Android iOS Win Mobile etc.! * GTA04's flexibility and hw-modifiability vs. any commercial device! * the art of self modifiable 3D-printed case vs. take what you get! etc. So let's start/continue/speed up competing against the rest of the world :) Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
How to bring forward the community?
Hi all, while I am still fiddling with GTA04 production yield issues, I think it is important to reason about the big view. So I would like to encourage to share what you are working on (kernel? driver? user space?) and what you think would bring forward the Openmoko community a small or big step.. Any idea is welcome (even if you think we already know about it). Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
Hi all, while I am still fiddling with GTA04 production yield issues, I think it is important to reason about the big view. So I would like to encourage to share what you are working on (kernel? driver? user space?) and what you think would bring forward the Openmoko community a small or big step.. Any idea is welcome (even if you think we already know about it). If anything is welcome then... I've left OpenMoko commutiny long ago, but I'm really disapponted by today's devices and I want to return. Unfortunately N900 changed my mind and now I consider hardware qwerty keyboard not an option but a must. I will immediately order any GTA04 successor that will have qwerty keyboard. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
On Monday 27 February 2012 11:35:38 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: So I would like to encourage to share what you are working on (kernel? driver? user space?) and what you think would bring forward the Openmoko community a small or big step.. Any idea is welcome (even if you think we already know about it). I have been now 5 days away from home and had gta04 with me. It was quite interesting now to switch roles from developer to regular user. I had many outgoing calls. It was mostly ok - once my wife complained that she can hear herself. I hope i can fix this in the voice routing program or with PCM profile AT commands... There was some mess when i called to work, they declined the call and called me back. Something must have messed up and i couldnt hear anything. I have no idea what it was... I could write SMS, but the response came one day later after reboot - so there must be something bugged there... I had to charge battery once a day. The QtMoko's keyboards are all crap. I had no internet - for me the wifi sensitivity is bad and i have not yet implemented umts in qtmoko. On the bright side - i have a lot of videos and mp3's on the phone and they play really nice. I had offline maps - this is also really nice - other phones are not that good in this. So generally - the phone is now quite usable, but with some annoyances. And you have to take care about the phone. It would be nice to just use it. Now i am thinking about most easy way how to get there. From the kernel side i think we still need better suspend, but generally the kernel is working nice. Userspace needs better audio routing - louder playback and better echo cancellation and rock solid modem support. SMS+calls should work on 100%. I think i will now add support for oFono to QtMoko. QtMoko's modem support is not bad - but oFono looks solid and actively developed so i really want to give it try. Regards Radek ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] How to bring forward the community?
Hi. On 27.02.2012 11:35, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: So I would like to encourage to share what you are working on (kernel? driver? user space?) and what you think would bring forward the Openmoko community a small or big step.. Any idea is welcome (even if you think we already know about it). I've been working on the 3D printable case [0] for the GTA04 (and GTA01 + GTA02) in the last weeks/months. I'm almost done with the first full and usable version. It was pressented at the FOSDEM as well and a lot of people liked it. I've also fixed a bug in Iliwi (SHR's WiFi application), which prevented it from connecting to WPA2 networks. Now you can easily connect your GTA04 to your network through a GUI and use Firefox or Eve (both in SHR's feeds) to browse the web – this is already working quite well (except the power usage of the WiFi chip). I've also written an easy step-by-step tutorial for installing and setting up SHR on your GTA04 [1]. Now, that I'll have some more time soon, I'll start working on SHR/FSO again, where I'll help with integrating some of the workarrounds for the GTA04 modem into FSO with the aim of using my GTA04 with SHR/FSO as a daily phone. A lot of work is already done there. It can send and receive calls and SMS, has a working (not perfect) audio routing etc. but there is some testing and bug fixing needed. Furthermore, I'll keep the SHR kernel [2] synchronized with Neil's 3.2-gta04 branch, which is working pretty nice already, as Radek stated. Cheers, Lukas [0] http://blog.slyon.de/3d-printed-gta04-case [1] http://trac.shr-project.org/trac/wiki/Devices/GTA04/InstallGuide [2] http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=linux-2.6.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/3.2-gta04 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
Well, it becomes sort of a who-is-who and who-is-doing-what list :) Shouldn't we take this as a trigger point to revitalize the wiki.openmoko.org? I am sure a significant amount of subscribers of this list also have write access. The minimum would be a page GTA04 Projects (i.e .http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA04-Projects ). The reason why I propose to host that on wiki.openmoko.org (and not www.gta04.org) is that it should not be tied to the GTA04 hardware but also over (hardware-agnostic) software. Nikolaus Am 27.02.2012 um 18:33 schrieb Lukas Märdian: Hi. On 27.02.2012 11:35, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: So I would like to encourage to share what you are working on (kernel? driver? user space?) and what you think would bring forward the Openmoko community a small or big step.. Any idea is welcome (even if you think we already know about it). I've been working on the 3D printable case [0] for the GTA04 (and GTA01 + GTA02) in the last weeks/months. I'm almost done with the first full and usable version. It was pressented at the FOSDEM as well and a lot of people liked it. I've also fixed a bug in Iliwi (SHR's WiFi application), which prevented it from connecting to WPA2 networks. Now you can easily connect your GTA04 to your network through a GUI and use Firefox or Eve (both in SHR's feeds) to browse the web – this is already working quite well (except the power usage of the WiFi chip). I've also written an easy step-by-step tutorial for installing and setting up SHR on your GTA04 [1]. Now, that I'll have some more time soon, I'll start working on SHR/FSO again, where I'll help with integrating some of the workarrounds for the GTA04 modem into FSO with the aim of using my GTA04 with SHR/FSO as a daily phone. A lot of work is already done there. It can send and receive calls and SMS, has a working (not perfect) audio routing etc. but there is some testing and bug fixing needed. Furthermore, I'll keep the SHR kernel [2] synchronized with Neil's 3.2-gta04 branch, which is working pretty nice already, as Radek stated. Cheers, Lukas [0] http://blog.slyon.de/3d-printed-gta04-case [1] http://trac.shr-project.org/trac/wiki/Devices/GTA04/InstallGuide [2] http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=linux-2.6.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/3.2-gta04 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] How to bring forward the community?
Hi, for me the biggest problem in GTA02 is the sound quality in calls. And it seems to be, that there are problems with echo in GTA04, too. But GTA04 is OMAP3 based, and OMAP3 has a DSP on board. In the beagleboard, there was a SW-component called DSP-bridge, and when I recall correctly the DSP can be directly be fed with McBSP data. So if the McBSP routing to and from the DSP would be possible, the DSP could do the echo canceling and any possible sound shaping. So there are some questions: Is the DSP activated in the Kernel for GTA04? Is the routing of the McBSP-data to and from the DSP possible? I guess the main CPU could sleep during call, leaving the rest to the DSP. Would this idea be feasible? I would love to work on this, if I find the time (I have some experience with signal processing and programming DSPs, but no speech processing), but I doubt I could do it alone. I could do my tests on a beagleboard (with GTA04/Hybrid), which I already have. BR, Joerg On Mon, 2012-02-27 at 11:35 +0100, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Hi all, while I am still fiddling with GTA04 production yield issues, I think it is important to reason about the big view. So I would like to encourage to share what you are working on (kernel? driver? user space?) and what you think would bring forward the Openmoko community a small or big step.. Any idea is welcome (even if you think we already know about it). Nikolaus ___ Gta04-owner mailing list gta04-ow...@goldelico.com http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo/gta04-owner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
Hi all, while I am still fiddling with GTA04 production yield issues, I think it is important to reason about the big view. So I would like to encourage to share what you are working on (kernel? driver? user space?) and what you think would bring forward the Openmoko community a small or big step.. Any idea is welcome (even if you think we already know about it). If anything is welcome then... I've left OpenMoko commutiny long ago, but I'm really disapponted by today's devices and I want to return. Unfortunately N900 changed my mind and now I consider hardware qwerty keyboard not an option but a must. I will immediately order any GTA04 successor that will have qwerty keyboard. My personal view is largely the same, as is my story. A hardware keyboard is necessary for me, although I would be equally happy with qwerty or numbers only. What kept me contributing to Openmoko was mostly lack of motivation. When I wanted to contribute, there was a lot of trouble with the basic services - GPS, WiFi, telephony. Those elements of the stack have high entry levels for contribution, and at the same time they drain a lot of patience when they don't work. So instead of using my Freerunner for tasks like PIM, finding rough edges there and contributing back (or packaging programs that rely on base functionality), I was struggling with things like custom WiFi scripts and similar that are only of any use for me. I think that a necessary prerequisite for community growth is to have a rock-solid phone stack, but everyone already knows that :) Having an easy way to build and share programs (without the need of an entire distribution checkout like SHR needed if I remember right) would also help. Native compilation perhaps? Cheers, rhn ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How to bring forward the community?
rhn omcomali@porcupinefactory.org writes: Having an easy way to build and share programs (without the need of an entire distribution checkout like SHR needed if I remember right) would also help. Native compilation perhaps? FWIW, native compilation has always been possible on the GTA02, at least under Debian. Admittedly it was sometimes painfully slow - depending on what I was compiling - but nevertheless definitely possible. On the GTA04 it is quite straightforward and quick to compile things. I'm doing it all the time. Regards, Neil ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] How to bring forward the community?
On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 22:36:50 + Neil Jerram n...@ossau.homelinux.net wrote: rhn omcomali@porcupinefactory.org writes: Having an easy way to build and share programs (without the need of an entire distribution checkout like SHR needed if I remember right) would also help. Native compilation perhaps? FWIW, native compilation has always been possible on the GTA02, at least under Debian. Admittedly it was sometimes painfully slow - depending on what I was compiling - but nevertheless definitely possible. On the GTA04 it is quite straightforward and quick to compile things. I'm doing it all the time. While I agree with all the above, I would very much like to be able to compile GTA04 binaries on my x86_64 multi-core notebook. I can do it easily for the kernel, but that is made much easier by the lack of external dependencies - no libraries to link with. I tried once - having a Debian/arm distro in a directory somewhere and setting up all the various paths, but I couldn't make it work. Does anyone know how to do this? (most of my user-space code is python which doesn't need compiling, but a few bits are C and I would *really* like to be able to make install and it would build arm version and scp them over.) NeilBrown signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
