Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
Al Johnson wrote: > On Saturday 06 June 2009, Harald Welte wrote: > >> On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 12:26:42PM -0700, Steve Mosher wrote: >> >>> I am somewhat constrained in what I am able to say. On one view there is >>> the position, held by some, that any hardware that is merely CAPABLE of >>> mp3 decode is required to apply for a license. >>> >> I think that position cannot hold strong in any court of law. You cannot >> charge a MP3 license for each and every general purpose computing device. >> This would mean that e.g. every PC mainboard would have to pay the MP3 >> royalties, and I can assure you, they dont ;) >> >> So even while sisvel or others might claim such a position, it is >> pointless. >> > > That depends on what the point is. It's no good being right if you can't > afford to prove it. Many will pay for a license they don't need because it's > cheaper than litigation. It's a legal form of extortion. > +1. > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
David Reyes Samblas Martinez wrote: > 2009/6/5 Tim Schmidt : > >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Steve Mosher wrote: >> >>> I am somewhat constrained in what I am able to say. On one view there is >>> the position, >>> held by some, that any hardware that is merely CAPABLE of mp3 decode is >>> required >>> to apply for a license. >>> >> So these dolts want a license fee for every turing complete computer >> above a few mips? >> > in short yes, in Spain is even more blooding, because apart of format > war licences in customs, there is local agency called SGAE that > succeeds in make pay a fee for any device not only able to play mp3 > but any kind of music, and that's not all, not only to play but to > keep any kind of multimedia format (this include CD/DVD-R, HD, > SDCards) > Is no matter of common sense or logic, now a days with law at hand, > they can do it and they do. Then is your work to demonstrate in court > you are right but meanwhile you are totally fuc$%ed. Scaring ,isn't > it? > Steve the problem is that "some" holding the position, are the ones > that have enough money/power/time/knowledge to sue you, because even > If they know they can loose in the court, in a way or another you will > pay because you just can afford and stand in the whole long proccess, > is their daily routine. > Yes, I know this is the problem. Perhaps I wasnt clear enough in my cryptic note. The issue isnt whether or not this position is valid or will "win" in court. The issue is this. can you afford to defend yourself? At one company I worked at the rule was pretty simple. Try to settle anything that was less than a certain dollar amount, say XYZ dollars, because the cost to even get in front of a judge was XYZ dollars. I cant count the number of times I was told " they have no case, but the cost to prove it is $$$, go work out a deal" >> --tim >> >> ___ >> Openmoko community mailing list >> community@lists.openmoko.org >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> >> > > > > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
On Saturday 06 June 2009, Harald Welte wrote: > On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 12:26:42PM -0700, Steve Mosher wrote: > > I am somewhat constrained in what I am able to say. On one view there is > > the position, held by some, that any hardware that is merely CAPABLE of > > mp3 decode is required to apply for a license. > > I think that position cannot hold strong in any court of law. You cannot > charge a MP3 license for each and every general purpose computing device. > This would mean that e.g. every PC mainboard would have to pay the MP3 > royalties, and I can assure you, they dont ;) > > So even while sisvel or others might claim such a position, it is > pointless. That depends on what the point is. It's no good being right if you can't afford to prove it. Many will pay for a license they don't need because it's cheaper than litigation. It's a legal form of extortion. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
On Saturday 06 June 2009 09:27:06 Harald Welte wrote: > This would > mean that e.g. every PC mainboard would have to pay the MP3 royalties, They would have to pay for every single audio codec but also for videos, file systems, network protocol… -- Vincent MEURISSE ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 12:26:42PM -0700, Steve Mosher wrote: > I am somewhat constrained in what I am able to say. On one view there is > the position, held by some, that any hardware that is merely CAPABLE of mp3 > decode is required to apply for a license. I think that position cannot hold strong in any court of law. You cannot charge a MP3 license for each and every general purpose computing device. This would mean that e.g. every PC mainboard would have to pay the MP3 royalties, and I can assure you, they dont ;) So even while sisvel or others might claim such a position, it is pointless. -- - Harald Weltehttp://laforge.gnumonks.org/ "Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option." (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
Christoph, Openmoko phones are MP3-free and thus do not infringe on any MP3 intellectual property. Wolfgang Christoph Pulster wrote: >> It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in >> support of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with >> support in areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal >> side (trademarks). >> > > Please remember the patent infridgements concerning MP3 (www.sisvel.it). > Openmoko Inc. did not solve this issue until today. > As a result, all sales inside EU are patent infridgments, all reseller > inside EU community have to live with the fact, that local customs seize > their Freerunner order anytime. > > Christoph > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
David, > Once was said OM was in sue trying to resolve this but I have no more > info on that for a long time. You have a good memory! :-) Yes, we were working with the Software Freedom Law Center in New York on our patent strategy. There was a decision of the US Supreme Court that undid some of the ongoing work. Don't expect anything to come out fast, but it's still moving. Wolfgang David Reyes Samblas Martinez wrote: > pattens as are now a days is a real PITA, no matter if you don't have > the libraries installed in the device,if you are cached by those > pirate... sorry pattens agencies in customs they just have to say to > the court the device is suitable to play mp3 and you don't have > license, and your parcel will be retained for months/years, no matter > the court final decision, you as reseller are fucked because you have > payed for a material you cannot touch. So orl you arrive an agreement > with the agency (+money,-less time) or wait for the lottery of the > court and cross your fingers to have a judge a little bit more techy > than the average, because if not, your parcel will be returned by > default, and if the judge has a bad day you surely will pay a penalty. > > Once was said OM was in sue trying to resolve this but I have no more > info on that for a long time. > > 2009/6/5 Al Johnson : > >> On Friday 05 June 2009, Christoph Pulster wrote: >> It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in support of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with support in areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal side (trademarks). >>> Please remember the patent infridgements concerning MP3 (www.sisvel.it). >>> Openmoko Inc. did not solve this issue until today. >>> As a result, all sales inside EU are patent infridgments, all reseller >>> inside EU community have to live with the fact, that local customs seize >>> their Freerunner order anytime. >>> >> Openmoko removed the mp3 codecs from the images they supply, and from their >> repositories, causing frustration for many. I don't know what image they now >> ship with, but would be surprised if they haven't removed the mp3 codecs from >> that too. If it doesn't contain the codec it can't infringe the patent. What >> more do you expect them to do? >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> Openmoko community mailing list >> community@lists.openmoko.org >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> >> > > > > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
2009/6/5 Tim Schmidt : > On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Steve Mosher wrote: >> I am somewhat constrained in what I am able to say. On one view there is >> the position, >> held by some, that any hardware that is merely CAPABLE of mp3 decode is >> required >> to apply for a license. > > So these dolts want a license fee for every turing complete computer > above a few mips? in short yes, in Spain is even more blooding, because apart of format war licences in customs, there is local agency called SGAE that succeeds in make pay a fee for any device not only able to play mp3 but any kind of music, and that's not all, not only to play but to keep any kind of multimedia format (this include CD/DVD-R, HD, SDCards) Is no matter of common sense or logic, now a days with law at hand, they can do it and they do. Then is your work to demonstrate in court you are right but meanwhile you are totally fuc$%ed. Scaring ,isn't it? Steve the problem is that "some" holding the position, are the ones that have enough money/power/time/knowledge to sue you, because even If they know they can loose in the court, in a way or another you will pay because you just can afford and stand in the whole long proccess, is their daily routine. > > --tim > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- David Reyes Samblas Martinez http://www.tuxbrain.com Open ultraportable & embedded solutions Openmoko, Openpandora, Arduino Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Steve Mosher wrote: > I am somewhat constrained in what I am able to say. On one view there is > the position, > held by some, that any hardware that is merely CAPABLE of mp3 decode is > required > to apply for a license. So these dolts want a license fee for every turing complete computer above a few mips? --tim ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
I am somewhat constrained in what I am able to say. On one view there is the position, held by some, that any hardware that is merely CAPABLE of mp3 decode is required to apply for a license. MP3 was removed from our images long ago and from the repositories. The requirements of the license agreement, without going into details, were beyond our financial means. Al Johnson wrote: > On Friday 05 June 2009, Christoph Pulster wrote: > >>> It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in >>> support of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with >>> support in areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal >>> side (trademarks). >>> >> Please remember the patent infridgements concerning MP3 (www.sisvel.it). >> Openmoko Inc. did not solve this issue until today. >> As a result, all sales inside EU are patent infridgments, all reseller >> inside EU community have to live with the fact, that local customs seize >> their Freerunner order anytime. >> > > Openmoko removed the mp3 codecs from the images they supply, and from their > repositories, causing frustration for many. I don't know what image they now > ship with, but would be surprised if they haven't removed the mp3 codecs from > that too. If it doesn't contain the codec it can't infringe the patent. What > more do you expect them to do? > > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
true, But although I didn't do any actual testing myself, I read that conversion mp3-->ogg sometimes doesn't sound good y On 6/5/09, Pieter Colpaert wrote: > I think it's a bad idea in general to discuss the topic. MP3's are non > free and should not be used by any openmoko-user. As myself I don't got > any mp3 on my computer, I only use ogg. The only disadvantage of ogg is: > you won't be able to share it with lots of friends, due they probably > use mp3. But as a matter of fact, sharing mp3's with friends is not > concidered very legal. So... There is no problem not using any mp3's on > the openmoko. The solution for people wanting to use openmoko as there > music device: > > let's create a "music uploader" for OM2009 & SHR (on your pc: so should > have a version for linux as well as for mac and wyndaws): > The main screen should give us a selector list of all songs on your pc, > no matter if they're mp3/ogg/wav/etc when uploaded (through scp, that's > easy I guess) they get automatically converted to ogg, which is a quite > good standard to use on the openmoko. So no problems selling openmoko > anymore huh? > > Pieter > > On Fri, 2009-06-05 at 15:16 +0200, David Reyes Samblas Martinez wrote: >> pattens as are now a days is a real PITA, no matter if you don't have >> the libraries installed in the device,if you are cached by those >> pirate... sorry pattens agencies in customs they just have to say to >> the court the device is suitable to play mp3 and you don't have >> license, and your parcel will be retained for months/years, no matter >> the court final decision, you as reseller are fucked because you have >> payed for a material you cannot touch. So orl you arrive an agreement >> with the agency (+money,-less time) or wait for the lottery of the >> court and cross your fingers to have a judge a little bit more techy >> than the average, because if not, your parcel will be returned by >> default, and if the judge has a bad day you surely will pay a penalty. >> >> Once was said OM was in sue trying to resolve this but I have no more >> info on that for a long time. >> >> 2009/6/5 Al Johnson : >> > On Friday 05 June 2009, Christoph Pulster wrote: >> >> > It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in >> >> > support of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with >> >> > support in areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal >> >> > side (trademarks). >> >> >> >> Please remember the patent infridgements concerning MP3 >> >> (www.sisvel.it). >> >> Openmoko Inc. did not solve this issue until today. >> >> As a result, all sales inside EU are patent infridgments, all reseller >> >> inside EU community have to live with the fact, that local customs >> >> seize >> >> their Freerunner order anytime. >> > >> > Openmoko removed the mp3 codecs from the images they supply, and from >> > their >> > repositories, causing frustration for many. I don't know what image they >> > now >> > ship with, but would be surprised if they haven't removed the mp3 codecs >> > from >> > that too. If it doesn't contain the codec it can't infringe the patent. >> > What >> > more do you expect them to do? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ___ >> > Openmoko community mailing list >> > community@lists.openmoko.org >> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> > >> >> >> > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
I think it's a bad idea in general to discuss the topic. MP3's are non free and should not be used by any openmoko-user. As myself I don't got any mp3 on my computer, I only use ogg. The only disadvantage of ogg is: you won't be able to share it with lots of friends, due they probably use mp3. But as a matter of fact, sharing mp3's with friends is not concidered very legal. So... There is no problem not using any mp3's on the openmoko. The solution for people wanting to use openmoko as there music device: let's create a "music uploader" for OM2009 & SHR (on your pc: so should have a version for linux as well as for mac and wyndaws): The main screen should give us a selector list of all songs on your pc, no matter if they're mp3/ogg/wav/etc when uploaded (through scp, that's easy I guess) they get automatically converted to ogg, which is a quite good standard to use on the openmoko. So no problems selling openmoko anymore huh? Pieter On Fri, 2009-06-05 at 15:16 +0200, David Reyes Samblas Martinez wrote: > pattens as are now a days is a real PITA, no matter if you don't have > the libraries installed in the device,if you are cached by those > pirate... sorry pattens agencies in customs they just have to say to > the court the device is suitable to play mp3 and you don't have > license, and your parcel will be retained for months/years, no matter > the court final decision, you as reseller are fucked because you have > payed for a material you cannot touch. So orl you arrive an agreement > with the agency (+money,-less time) or wait for the lottery of the > court and cross your fingers to have a judge a little bit more techy > than the average, because if not, your parcel will be returned by > default, and if the judge has a bad day you surely will pay a penalty. > > Once was said OM was in sue trying to resolve this but I have no more > info on that for a long time. > > 2009/6/5 Al Johnson : > > On Friday 05 June 2009, Christoph Pulster wrote: > >> > It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in > >> > support of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with > >> > support in areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal > >> > side (trademarks). > >> > >> Please remember the patent infridgements concerning MP3 (www.sisvel.it). > >> Openmoko Inc. did not solve this issue until today. > >> As a result, all sales inside EU are patent infridgments, all reseller > >> inside EU community have to live with the fact, that local customs seize > >> their Freerunner order anytime. > > > > Openmoko removed the mp3 codecs from the images they supply, and from their > > repositories, causing frustration for many. I don't know what image they now > > ship with, but would be surprised if they haven't removed the mp3 codecs > > from > > that too. If it doesn't contain the codec it can't infringe the patent. What > > more do you expect them to do? > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > Openmoko community mailing list > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
pattens as are now a days is a real PITA, no matter if you don't have the libraries installed in the device,if you are cached by those pirate... sorry pattens agencies in customs they just have to say to the court the device is suitable to play mp3 and you don't have license, and your parcel will be retained for months/years, no matter the court final decision, you as reseller are fucked because you have payed for a material you cannot touch. So orl you arrive an agreement with the agency (+money,-less time) or wait for the lottery of the court and cross your fingers to have a judge a little bit more techy than the average, because if not, your parcel will be returned by default, and if the judge has a bad day you surely will pay a penalty. Once was said OM was in sue trying to resolve this but I have no more info on that for a long time. 2009/6/5 Al Johnson : > On Friday 05 June 2009, Christoph Pulster wrote: >> > It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in >> > support of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with >> > support in areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal >> > side (trademarks). >> >> Please remember the patent infridgements concerning MP3 (www.sisvel.it). >> Openmoko Inc. did not solve this issue until today. >> As a result, all sales inside EU are patent infridgments, all reseller >> inside EU community have to live with the fact, that local customs seize >> their Freerunner order anytime. > > Openmoko removed the mp3 codecs from the images they supply, and from their > repositories, causing frustration for many. I don't know what image they now > ship with, but would be surprised if they haven't removed the mp3 codecs from > that too. If it doesn't contain the codec it can't infringe the patent. What > more do you expect them to do? > > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- David Reyes Samblas Martinez http://www.tuxbrain.com Open ultraportable & embedded solutions Openmoko, Openpandora, Arduino Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
On Friday 05 June 2009, Christoph Pulster wrote: > > It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in > > support of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with > > support in areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal > > side (trademarks). > > Please remember the patent infridgements concerning MP3 (www.sisvel.it). > Openmoko Inc. did not solve this issue until today. > As a result, all sales inside EU are patent infridgments, all reseller > inside EU community have to live with the fact, that local customs seize > their Freerunner order anytime. Openmoko removed the mp3 codecs from the images they supply, and from their repositories, causing frustration for many. I don't know what image they now ship with, but would be surprised if they haven't removed the mp3 codecs from that too. If it doesn't contain the codec it can't infringe the patent. What more do you expect them to do? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
