Re: Mail Wrapping
Summary answer... Am 15.08.2010 um 00:58 schrieb steve: Hi Steve, Hi Niklaus (not in Zürich toniht?) What important event is (was) there tonight? Anyway, may studies have shown that the reader begins to be less concentrated when lines exceed 80 caracters, that's *my* main point. I completely agree with that. Newspapers come in columns. Since they were invented 200 years ago. For good reasons. But I did not expect that any mail reader could have such a problem formatting long lines to read in small columns. IMHO any modern mail viewer should be able to do that. Bad MUA, change MUA (mutt maybe?) I have checked what mutt is and I am impressed what can be done with the VT100 methaphor. But it looks as recommending to replace a Porsche by a refurbished truck because it is more flexible... One thing made me wonder. Did you correctly use all mutt settings? I have e.g. found: 3.238. smart_wrap Type: boolean Default: yes Controls the display of lines longer than the screen width in the internal pager. If set, long lines are wrapped at a word boundary. If unset, lines are simply wrapped at the screen edge. Also see the $markers variable. If I understand that correctly (I have never used or configured mutt), it is just a matter of correct settings on the receiver's side and the 'reader' component. But let's stop this discussion which is quite philosophical/fundamental (in several aspects) since we have found a simple solution after knowing the problem. BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mail Wrapping
El día Monday, August 16, 2010 a las 09:58:50AM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller escribió: One thing made me wonder. Did you correctly use all mutt settings? I have e.g. found: 3.238. smart_wrap Type: boolean Default: yes Controls the display of lines longer than the screen width in the internal pager. If set, long lines are wrapped at a word boundary. If unset, lines are simply wrapped at the screen edge. Also see the $markers variable. If I understand that correctly (I have never used or configured mutt), it is just a matter of correct settings on the receiver's side and the 'reader' component. Of course, the pager (reader) of Mutt wrapes your very long lines correctly (i.e. at word boundary) to the line length of the used terminal, xterm. But, look how ugly your read lock. I have placed a screen shoot of your mail here: http://www.unixarea.de/uglyLines.jpg That's why the RFC of the Netiquette recommends line wrap around column 65 and this is a correct recommendation even today and not just a matter of taste. matthias -- Matthias Apitz t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e g...@unixarea.de - w http://www.unixarea.de/ Solidarity with the zionistic pirates of Israel? Not in my name! ¿Solidaridad con los piratas sionistas de Israel? ¡No en mi nombre! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mail Wrapping
On 14/08/10 18:42, Gennady Kupava wrote: Hi, Nikolaus, First, thanks for your work on next generation of free hardware, I hope to use it one day. Didn't came to conclusion how my next device should look like exactly, and i'm ok with fr so far. But about line wrapping - i am using web interface to read community-ml, so no way to control my 'client' parameters. To get idea how your mail look like in web interface, try this link: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2010-July/062609.html I think many people may find your letters this way, and it's really not easy to read sometimes. Just a note, all this wrapping topic is not really serious problem. Gennady. Can i recommend gmane as a better interface to read mailing lists http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.openmoko.community/57269 sam ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mail Wrapping
Am 13.08.2010 um 22:35 schrieb steve: Le 13-08-2010, à 19:45:51 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller (h...@computer.org) a écrit : such a thing is quite unlikely to expect from any large phone manufacturer. Even if they open up an existing design. They ususally squeeze every bit out of the design to reduce manufacturing cost and may have very special test procedures. And they may change internals every now and then to improve their production process. I.e. you may get version B4 this week and someone else version C7 in two weeks with differences in the not-documented area. Nikolaus, couldn't you wrap your lines to something more standard (72 or so ?) Thanks, I like reading your prose, but those long lines are really irritating. Hi Steve, there are different opinions if the 80 char line wrapping of mail is standard or some old-fashioned relict from the 80ies. I have tried to find out what it is but it appears to be a problem with some MUAs not correctly handling RFC 2646. Here is also some discussion about mailman being responsible or not: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-us...@python.org/msg49755.html which says: The problem is that prior to Mailman 2.1.10, the format=flowed and delsp=yes parameters were not preserved in the outgoing message. I think the OM list uses version 2.1.9 so it could be a bug. I don't know if my mail client uses these paramters - but it does not have an option to do line wrapping when sending. So, wouldn't it be simpler if you reduce the width of your display window? Your client should then wrap long lines. BR, Nikolaus PS: I have tried to format this mail manually, but it is quite a pain... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mail Wrapping
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org writes: Am 13.08.2010 um 22:35 schrieb steve: Nikolaus, couldn't you wrap your lines to something more standard (72 or so ?) Thanks, I like reading your prose, but those long lines are really irritating. there are different opinions if the 80 char line wrapping of mail is standard or some old-fashioned relict from the 80ies. I have tried to find out what it is but it appears to be a problem with some MUAs not correctly handling RFC 2646. Well, i can't really see how format=flowed can make any sense, even nowadays. I think all sane MUAs go without it by default, and for a reason: it messes with formatting which is important when you're sending snippets of code, patches, logs etc. Probably it's the right time for you to stop following the rules set by Apple and to start using a better MUA? ;) So, wouldn't it be simpler if you reduce the width of your display window? Your client should then wrap long lines. That's not exactly a good option for those of us using tiling window managers, sorry. Good luck and happy hacking :) -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mail Wrapping
El día Saturday, August 14, 2010 a las 08:34:51AM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller escribió: Nikolaus, couldn't you wrap your lines to something more standard (72 or so ?) Thanks, I like reading your prose, but those long lines are really irritating. Hi Steve, there are different opinions if the 80 char line wrapping of mail is standard or some old-fashioned relict from the 80ies. I have tried to find out what it is but it appears to be a problem with some MUAs not correctly handling RFC 2646. Here is also some discussion about mailman being responsible or not: Hi Nikolaus, It is the responsibility of your MailUserAgent to wrap lines correctly around column 72. You are using Apple Mail (2.1081). If this can not do this, just use another MUA or another system providing correct software. I'm using Mutt as MUA which in turn can use any editor when writing the body of the mail. I've set the editor to vim with some magic flags: set editor=vim \'+set textwidth=72\' \'+syntax match WarningMsg /\\%70v.*/\' -i NONE this puts any char from position 70 in red color and wraps the line if my typing hits positin 72, but breaks it at the last blank before, i.e. does not break a word into two pieces. Just as a hint matthias -- Matthias Apitz t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e g...@unixarea.de - w http://www.unixarea.de/ Solidarity with the zionistic pirates of Israel? Not in my name! ¿Solidaridad con los piratas sionistas de Israel? ¡No en mi nombre! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mail Wrapping
Please people stop spamming about line length. If you MUA is so good then ask it to automatically split long lines :-p ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mail Wrapping
I don't know if my mail client uses these paramters - but it does not have an option to do line wrapping when sending. Indeed. That's the one thing I really hate when using Mail.app. Cheers, -- :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mail Wrapping
Am 14.08.2010 um 10:14 schrieb ri...@happyleptic.org: Please people stop spamming about line length. If you MUA is so good then ask it to automatically split long lines :-p I agree that we should not spam - but IMHO this was raised as a serious problem. I could live with the idea that everyone uses a MUA that can wrap lines when reading and displaying long lines. But it appears there are systems out there that can't (which I did not yet know). And I am asked to solve their display problem on the senders side (although I have much better things to do)... Am 14.08.2010 um 09:28 schrieb Matthias Apitz: El día Saturday, August 14, 2010 a las 08:34:51AM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller escribió: Nikolaus, couldn't you wrap your lines to something more standard (72 or so ?) Thanks, I like reading your prose, but those long lines are really irritating. Hi Steve, there are different opinions if the 80 char line wrapping of mail is standard or some old-fashioned relict from the 80ies. I have tried to find out what it is but it appears to be a problem with some MUAs not correctly handling RFC 2646. Here is also some discussion about mailman being responsible or not: Hi Nikolaus, It is the responsibility of your MailUserAgent to wrap lines correctly around column 72. You are using Apple Mail (2.1081). If this can not do this, just use another MUA or another system providing correct software. Before we start fingerpointing on any client we are using, let's do a little more research. http://mailformat.dan.info/body/linelength.html quotes RFC 2822 (the successor to RFC 822): There are two limits that this standard places on the number of characters in a line. Each line of characters MUST be no more than 998 characters, and SHOULD be no more than 78 characters, excluding the CRLF. I.e. lines more than 78 characters are *not* forbidden. From this I conclude that a mail recipient must cope with that. If not, the client is broken. And, I conclude that it is not a rule for writing or displaying mails - just for transferring them over SMTP without making buffer overflows. Now let's look into the plain code my MUA is sending. Here is an example: Hi Steve, there are different opinions if the 80 char line wrapping of mail is standa= rd or some old-fashioned relict from the 80ies. I have tried to find out what it is bu= t it appears to be a problem with some MUAs not correctly handling RFC 2646. Here is also some discussion about mailman being responsible or not: So Apple Mail *is* correclty sending wrapped lines according to RFC. I do not excactly know what the rules are to interpret the = signs at the end of the line. I guess it has to do with Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A little more search shows this comes from RFC 2045 (MIME) on page 19 (Soft Line Breaks). From this I conclude that the mails my client sends are correct (according to the standard). So it appears to me that we are trying to treat a corectly implemented feature as a bug because there is some habit of expecting that lines are always *displayed* with wrapping (even if they are sent as non-wrapped lines using MIME quoted-printable). But I may be missing something. If somebody can point me to the RFC that *requires* that lines must be *visibly* wrapped by the sender so that no client ever shows long lines, I am happy to file a bug report for Apple Mail (wouldn't be the first one :). If there is no such RFC, please report bugs for your clients that don't wrap long (MIME encoded) lines they receive to the width of the display window. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mail Wrapping
El día Saturday, August 14, 2010 a las 03:41:06PM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller escribió: So Apple Mail *is* correclty sending wrapped lines according to RFC. I do not excactly know what the rules are to interpret the = signs at the end of the line. I guess it has to do with Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A little more search shows this comes from RFC 2045 (MIME) on page 19 (Soft Line Breaks). From this I conclude that the mails my client sends are correct (according to the standard). So it appears to me that we are trying to treat a corectly implemented feature as a bug because there is some habit of expecting that lines are always *displayed* with wrapping (even if they are sent as non-wrapped lines using MIME quoted-printable). But I may be missing something. If somebody can point me to the RFC that *requires* that lines must be *visibly* wrapped by the sender so that no client ever shows long lines, I am happy to file a bug report for Apple Mail (wouldn't be the first one :). If there is no such RFC, please report bugs for your clients that don't wrap long (MIME encoded) lines they receive to the width of the display window. http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html 2.1 User Guidelines 2.1.1 For mail: ... - Limit line length to fewer than 65 characters and end a line with a carriage return. ... matthias -- Matthias Apitz t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e g...@unixarea.de - w http://www.unixarea.de/ Solidarity with the zionistic pirates of Israel? Not in my name! ¿Solidaridad con los piratas sionistas de Israel? ¡No en mi nombre! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mail Wrapping
Hi, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com writes: If there is no such RFC, please report bugs for your clients that don't wrap long (MIME encoded) lines they receive to the width of the display window. Nikolaus, thanks for the serious attitude wrt this issue. My client does wrap long lines to the width of the display window, but as i'm using a tiling window manager, my client is almost always fullscreen (and sometimes i split my screen horizontally, with MUA's width obviously not affected). I can agree that using f=f is legal but nevertheless i can see no reason why insist on using it given it seems to have no benefits but quite some drawbacks and hence it's customary to avoid it (e.g. most mails at LKML are wrapped). -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mail Wrapping
Am 14.08.2010 um 15:55 schrieb Matthias Apitz: El día Saturday, August 14, 2010 a las 03:41:06PM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller escribió: If somebody can point me to the RFC that *requires* that lines must be *visibly* wrapped by the sender so that no client ever shows long lines, I am happy to file a bug report for Apple Mail (wouldn't be the first one :). If there is no such RFC, please report bugs for your clients that don't wrap long (MIME encoded) lines they receive to the width of the display window. http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html 2.1 User Guidelines 2.1.1 For mail: ... - Limit line length to fewer than 65 characters and end a line with a carriage return. ... Ok. But: October 1995 Status of This Memo This memo provides information for the Internet community. This memo does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. Abstract This document provides a minimum set of guidelines for Network Etiquette (Netiquette) which organizations may take and adapt for their own use. I.e. I would not take it as a *requirement* and it is also quite old to stick to it. It appears to be stimulated by times where 50% of the Internet users did use a VGA screen and 95% dial-up modems. People did not have many WYSIWYG systems as mail clients. Most mail clients were VT100 compatible. So I fear I can't convince Apple with this (it does not even convince me...). The only solution is, that I promise to try to press the return key every now and then (unless I forget)... BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mail Wrapping
sorry, but i completely fail to understand the issue. every mail client worth using should be able to wrap lines even for received mails when displaying. instead of forcing their idea of (maybe even outdated) conventions on other people, those having issues with lines being too long, simply should check their mail clients configuration and get over with it. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Mail Wrapping
Hi, Nikolaus, First, thanks for your work on next generation of free hardware, I hope to use it one day. Didn't came to conclusion how my next device should look like exactly, and i'm ok with fr so far. But about line wrapping - i am using web interface to read community-ml, so no way to control my 'client' parameters. To get idea how your mail look like in web interface, try this link: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2010-July/062609.html I think many people may find your letters this way, and it's really not easy to read sometimes. Just a note, all this wrapping topic is not really serious problem. Gennady. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mail Wrapping
Le 14-08-2010, à 08:34:51 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller (h...@computer.org) a
écrit :
Am 13.08.2010 um 22:35 schrieb steve:
Le 13-08-2010, à 19:45:51 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
(h...@computer.org) a écrit :
such a thing is quite unlikely to expect from any large phone
manufacturer. Even if they open up an existing design. They
ususally squeeze every bit out of the design to reduce
manufacturing cost and may have very special test procedures. And
they may change internals every now and then to improve their
production process. I.e. you may get version B4 this week and
someone else version C7 in two weeks with differences in the
not-documented area.
Nikolaus, couldn't you wrap your lines to something more standard
(72 or so ?) Thanks, I like reading your prose, but those long lines
are really irritating.
Hi Steve,
Hi Niklaus (not in Zürich toniht?)
there are different opinions if the 80 char line wrapping of mail is standard
or some
old-fashioned relict from the 80ies. I have tried to find out what it is but
it appears
to be a problem with some MUAs not correctly handling RFC 2646.
I just read (in diagonal) through rfc 2646. It seems that it clearly
says to stick to lines not longer that 80 caracters.
Anyway, may studies have shown that the reader begins to be less
concentrated when lines exceed 80 caracters, that's *my* main point.
Here is also some discussion about mailman being responsible or not:
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-us...@python.org/msg49755.html
which says:
The problem is that prior to Mailman 2.1.10, the format=flowed and
delsp=yes parameters were not preserved in the outgoing message.
I think the OM list uses version 2.1.9 so it could be a bug.
Maybe, but a lot of posters here don't have any problems with 72-80
caracters. I don't see where mailman comes in the game.
I don't know if my mail client uses these paramters - but it does not have
an option to do line wrapping when sending.
Bad MUA, change MUA (mutt maybe?)
So, wouldn't it be simpler if you reduce the width of your display window?
Your client should then wrap long lines.
No it's not simpler, imagine that many people wrap at diffenrent
numbers, what should I do? Reduce *my* display every time a mail is
excedding 72-80 caracters? I'd become crazy.
BR,
Nikolaus
PS: I have tried to format this mail manually, but it is quite a pain...
I understand that. But bottom line, you're using a mua that sucks, if it
doesn't give you the possibility to wrap lines at the lenght *you*
choose. Have a try at mutt [1], you'll be happy.
Personaly, I use mutt with vim as a text editor, and a simple {gq},
wraps the whole paragraph as I want, awsome :-)
[1] http://www.mutt.org/
Best regards,
--
steve
___
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Re: Mail Wrapping
Le 14-08-2010, à 11:09:58 +0400, Paul Fertser (fercer...@gmail.com) a écrit : Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org writes: Am 13.08.2010 um 22:35 schrieb steve: Nikolaus, couldn't you wrap your lines to something more standard (72 or so ?) Thanks, I like reading your prose, but those long lines are really irritating. there are different opinions if the 80 char line wrapping of mail is standard or some old-fashioned relict from the 80ies. I have tried to find out what it is but it appears to be a problem with some MUAs not correctly handling RFC 2646. Well, i can't really see how format=flowed can make any sense, even nowadays. I think all sane MUAs go without it by default, and for a reason: it messes with formatting which is important when you're sending snippets of code, patches, logs etc. Probably it's the right time for you to stop following the rules set by Apple and to start using a better MUA? ;) Absolutely! Mutt maybe? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mail Wrapping
Le 14-08-2010, à 09:28:43 +0200, Matthias Apitz (g...@unixarea.de) a écrit : It is the responsibility of your MailUserAgent to wrap lines correctly around column 72. You are using Apple Mail (2.1081). If this can not do this, just use another MUA or another system providing correct software. +1 I'm using Mutt as MUA which in turn can use any editor when writing the body of the mail. I've set the editor to vim with some magic flags: set editor=vim \'+set textwidth=72\' \'+syntax match WarningMsg /\\%70v.*/\' -i NONE My setting too. this puts any char from position 70 in red color and wraps the line if my typing hits positin 72, but breaks it at the last blank before, i.e. does not break a word into two pieces. Just as a hint A good one! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mail Wrapping
Le 14-08-2010, à 15:41:06 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller (h...@goldelico.com) a écrit : Please people stop spamming about line length. If you MUA is so good then ask it to automatically split long lines :-p I agree that we should not spam - but IMHO this was raised as a serious problem. Serious no, just courtesy. I could live with the idea that everyone uses a MUA that can wrap lines when reading and displaying long lines. But it appears there are systems out there that can't (which I did not yet know). How does *your* mua display your own long lines? Does it wrap the lines to a predefined length? Or do you see them as you type them? And I am asked to solve their display problem on the senders side I'm not obliging you at all, it was just a nice remark and I felt I could share it with you because through your prose I felt someone open to remarks. That's all. (although I have much better things to do)... I'm sure of that! (I don't write a lot here, but I read nearly everything). Am 14.08.2010 um 09:28 schrieb Matthias Apitz: El día Saturday, August 14, 2010 a las 08:34:51AM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller escribió: Nikolaus, couldn't you wrap your lines to something more standard (72 or so ?) Thanks, I like reading your prose, but those long lines are really irritating. Hi Steve, there are different opinions if the 80 char line wrapping of mail is standard or some old-fashioned relict from the 80ies. I have tried to find out what it is but it appears to be a problem with some MUAs not correctly handling RFC 2646. Here is also some discussion about mailman being responsible or not: Hi Nikolaus, It is the responsibility of your MailUserAgent to wrap lines correctly around column 72. You are using Apple Mail (2.1081). If this can not do this, just use another MUA or another system providing correct software. He said it (also) :-) Before we start fingerpointing on any client we are using, let's do a little more research. http://mailformat.dan.info/body/linelength.html quotes RFC 2822 (the successor to RFC 822): There are two limits that this standard places on the number of characters in a line. Each line of characters MUST be no more than 998 characters, and SHOULD be no more than 78 characters, excluding the CRLF. I.e. lines more than 78 characters are *not* forbidden. From this I conclude that a mail recipient must cope with that. If not, the client is broken. No. Mutt displays long line but that's not a reason for it to be broken. I repeat, it is easier for humains to read lines not excedding 80 caracters, after you get tired and your concentration decreases. So as the writer, your goal is to catch your readers attention and one way to do it, is to wrap lines to a descent lenght (between 72 and 80 caracters). And, I conclude that it is not a rule for writing or displaying mails - just for transferring them over SMTP without making buffer overflows. I don't care what the MTA does (at this point). Now let's look into the plain code my MUA is sending. Here is an example: Hi Steve, there are different opinions if the 80 char line wrapping of mail is standa= rd or some old-fashioned relict from the 80ies. I have tried to find out what it is bu= t it appears to be a problem with some MUAs not correctly handling RFC 2646. Here is also some discussion about mailman being responsible or not: So Apple Mail *is* correclty sending wrapped lines according to RFC. You're kidding I hope? Second line, there is only three words, same on fourth line. The text presented like that just sucks. I do not excactly know what the rules are to interpret the = signs at the end of the line. I guess it has to do with Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A little more search shows this comes from RFC 2045 (MIME) on page 19 (Soft Line Breaks). From this I conclude that the mails my client sends are correct (according to the standard). I think your conclusion is wrong. [...] Kind regards -- steve ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mail Wrapping
Le 14-08-2010, à 17:05:55 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller (h...@goldelico.com) a écrit : The only solution is, that I promise to try to press the return key every now and then (unless I forget)... IMHO, it is not a good solution. Otherwise, why use machines? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
