Re: My N900 experience compared to my FR experience (was: Re: [QtMoko] handset is (almost) unusable for voice calls with background noise)
Thanks a lot for your ffedback! hey and waht about Noko? :) CU Sylvain (aka GarthPS) 2010/7/8 Nicola Mfb > On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Michal Brzozowski > wrote: > > [...] > > > I'd like to hear how the N900 compares to the FR in hackability. Like > > replacing pieces of software, like keyboard, window manager, etc. I > > wasn't able to find much information about this. It seems there is > > only one distribution that fully works on the N900, which is quite > > worrying. > > Hi Michal, > > I have an n900 too since last November, here my (hoping agnostic) review: > > Hardware: > > Great, overclockable to 1Ghz (seems without problems), battery life of > several days *without* suspend, 3d accelerated graphics, 32 GB eMMC (+ > slot for SD expansion), 256 MB flash, 256 MB ram, nice screen > resolution of 800x480, good TS (even with finger only), FM receiver > and *transmitter*, proximity sensor, IR transmitter, accelerometer, > 5Mb zeiss rear camera, front camera, *superb* audio quality and "3.5G" > module, wifi, bt, video output, stereo speaker, etc. > > End User Experience: > > Not comparable to the freerunner one. Maemo has a lot of defects but > using it you feel immediately it has a common layout, defined api and > gui guidelines. This may appear as a limit, but from the End User > experience is very nice! > All apps (nokia, community or thirdy part) follow this principles, are > integrated with the DE and with the middleware quite nice. > > The phone application is based on telepathy, so due to its > multiprotocol nature supports gsm voice calls, skype, voip, and so on. > The same for sms and chat integrated in the "conversation" app. There > are a lot of plugins (google, msn, etc.) to extend it. > > The DE has a nice 4 pages home, you switch by dragging them, on every > page you may add shortcuts to applications, contacts (that shows the > picture and the IM online status, so it's easy and natural using a > skype/voip call instead of gsm one and save money!), web bookmarks and > widgets that make the user able to highly customize the desktop. > Finally there are pluggable "status" area and power button menu. > Task switching is performed with a very nice composite dashboard where > you see thumbnails of current running apps (that are updated in > realtime). > All that is full finger friendly and there is a stylo inside the n900 > when you need, (actually I use it only for precise web browsing > without the need of zooming in/out). > The virtual keyboard is full integrated with customized input methods > of gtk and qt (I do not know about other toolkits), so when you tap on > a text field you'll have a qwerty (not transparent) portrait keyboard > showing the current editing text. > If you open/close the HW keyboard the virtual one will hide/show. > > As you may guess peoples does not feel the necessity to change the WM > or the VK because you loose the high number of pluggable widgets in > the home, the status area and the toolkit interaction with the > keyboard. > > The package management system is apt, there is an integrated GUI that > will show only a specific section of the available apps, so the end > user will see only good sense applications with descriptions and icons > (of course the power user may use xterm or ssh to see the full > contents of the repositories). The status area will signal with a > blinking square where an update is available, so you may be uptodate > with a couple of finger taps. > > The network manager works very well and handles wifi and 3g connections. > > Just a concrete user experience (a my tipical day): > > I have a voip public telephony (like skypein) account (eutelia) and > skype configured, a 5euro/month 3GB umts data option on my sim, wifi > networking at home and at work, google contacts synchronization and 3 > email account configured. My network manager is configured to "always > on". > > The alarm wakes up me every morning (and works reliably), then I put > the device online, automagically it connects to my home wifi network, > signs up to skype and eutelia, check for emails, does the first sync > with google, updates the weather and the rss and the "personal ip > address" widgets on the desktop. > > When going to work, as my home wifi is not more reachable the n900 > automagically start a 3g connection. I may check the sent/received > statistics with another widgets that updates informations in real time > on the desktop to be sure I'm not reaching the 3G/month limit, and > anyway in the settings manager I may set to be advised every time x MB > of traffic was generated. > > While using my car I start the mediaplayer and the FM transmitter > (with another desktop widget), put the device near the car stereo and > listen for some music or use sygic voice assisted gps navigation where > going to unknown places. > > When I arrive in the office it automagically stops it and connects to > work wifi and so on until I put it offline in the night. > > Every x m
Re: My N900 experience compared to my FR experience (was: Re: [QtMoko] handset is (almost) unusable for voice calls with background noise)
On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Michal Brzozowski wrote: [...] > I'd like to hear how the N900 compares to the FR in hackability. Like > replacing pieces of software, like keyboard, window manager, etc. I > wasn't able to find much information about this. It seems there is > only one distribution that fully works on the N900, which is quite > worrying. Hi Michal, I have an n900 too since last November, here my (hoping agnostic) review: Hardware: Great, overclockable to 1Ghz (seems without problems), battery life of several days *without* suspend, 3d accelerated graphics, 32 GB eMMC (+ slot for SD expansion), 256 MB flash, 256 MB ram, nice screen resolution of 800x480, good TS (even with finger only), FM receiver and *transmitter*, proximity sensor, IR transmitter, accelerometer, 5Mb zeiss rear camera, front camera, *superb* audio quality and "3.5G" module, wifi, bt, video output, stereo speaker, etc. End User Experience: Not comparable to the freerunner one. Maemo has a lot of defects but using it you feel immediately it has a common layout, defined api and gui guidelines. This may appear as a limit, but from the End User experience is very nice! All apps (nokia, community or thirdy part) follow this principles, are integrated with the DE and with the middleware quite nice. The phone application is based on telepathy, so due to its multiprotocol nature supports gsm voice calls, skype, voip, and so on. The same for sms and chat integrated in the "conversation" app. There are a lot of plugins (google, msn, etc.) to extend it. The DE has a nice 4 pages home, you switch by dragging them, on every page you may add shortcuts to applications, contacts (that shows the picture and the IM online status, so it's easy and natural using a skype/voip call instead of gsm one and save money!), web bookmarks and widgets that make the user able to highly customize the desktop. Finally there are pluggable "status" area and power button menu. Task switching is performed with a very nice composite dashboard where you see thumbnails of current running apps (that are updated in realtime). All that is full finger friendly and there is a stylo inside the n900 when you need, (actually I use it only for precise web browsing without the need of zooming in/out). The virtual keyboard is full integrated with customized input methods of gtk and qt (I do not know about other toolkits), so when you tap on a text field you'll have a qwerty (not transparent) portrait keyboard showing the current editing text. If you open/close the HW keyboard the virtual one will hide/show. As you may guess peoples does not feel the necessity to change the WM or the VK because you loose the high number of pluggable widgets in the home, the status area and the toolkit interaction with the keyboard. The package management system is apt, there is an integrated GUI that will show only a specific section of the available apps, so the end user will see only good sense applications with descriptions and icons (of course the power user may use xterm or ssh to see the full contents of the repositories). The status area will signal with a blinking square where an update is available, so you may be uptodate with a couple of finger taps. The network manager works very well and handles wifi and 3g connections. Just a concrete user experience (a my tipical day): I have a voip public telephony (like skypein) account (eutelia) and skype configured, a 5euro/month 3GB umts data option on my sim, wifi networking at home and at work, google contacts synchronization and 3 email account configured. My network manager is configured to "always on". The alarm wakes up me every morning (and works reliably), then I put the device online, automagically it connects to my home wifi network, signs up to skype and eutelia, check for emails, does the first sync with google, updates the weather and the rss and the "personal ip address" widgets on the desktop. When going to work, as my home wifi is not more reachable the n900 automagically start a 3g connection. I may check the sent/received statistics with another widgets that updates informations in real time on the desktop to be sure I'm not reaching the 3G/month limit, and anyway in the settings manager I may set to be advised every time x MB of traffic was generated. While using my car I start the mediaplayer and the FM transmitter (with another desktop widget), put the device near the car stereo and listen for some music or use sygic voice assisted gps navigation where going to unknown places. When I arrive in the office it automagically stops it and connects to work wifi and so on until I put it offline in the night. Every x minutes it continues to update widgets, and signal incoming email, IM messages, alarms, phone calls (of course ;)) and so on. Every with this intensive usage my battery may survive to more then a day, note that it never suspends, and this is a big feature as I can always open an ssh connecti
Re: My N900 experience compared to my FR experience (was: Re: [QtMoko] handset is (almost) unusable for voice calls with background noise)
2010/7/7 Sebastian Reichel : > https://elektranox.org/website/debian_on_n900.html Thanks for your great work with Debian on N900. I do look forward to 2011 or 2012 to eventually do a switch from FreeRunner, and N900 is one (and currently best) possibility. It wouldn't hurt, though, if some truly (with some definition near FR's definition or better) open phone would come out by then. I know I _could_ make the switch the day the N900 ofono driver is ported to FSO or GUIs for ofono would be made (and the modem driver would be stable in the first place, which might take time), but my main line of thought is that now that I have a working phone running Debian, I'm not that eager to switch just for the sake of it or just for speed, especially if it means sacrificing a few freedoms. Maybe if something new in the spirit of Openmoko would arise... like the leviathan's prospect that he mentioned on the gta02-core mailing list last month. Let's hope for the best, and meanwhile freeing not-completely-free-but-near phones is the next best thing to do. -Timo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My N900 experience compared to my FR experience (was: Re: [QtMoko] handset is (almost) unusable for voice calls with background noise)
2010/7/7 Sebastian Reichel : > You may be interested in this: > https://elektranox.org/website/debian_on_n900.html Cool! What we need now is "just" FSO on the n900 :-) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My N900 experience compared to my FR experience (was: Re: [QtMoko] handset is (almost) unusable for voice calls with background noise)
> I'd like to hear how the N900 compares to the FR in hackability. Like > replacing pieces of software, like keyboard, window manager, etc. I > wasn't able to find much information about this. It seems there is > only one distribution that fully works on the N900, which is quite > worrying. hackability is fair to middling. there are open packages, there are closed packages and there are 3d party packages. documentation of hardware is incomplete and not sufficient to make a full working dist5ribution w/o closed parts from nokia. for reasons unbeknownst to man, nokia has chosen to use some kind of debian, but not debian. making small changes, the made maemo incompatible to debian, thus cutting maemo users off from the plethora of already existing and working packages for the hw platform, limiting the available software to the packages nokia offers and those volunteers port from debian. since not even the package names follow the same rules and, what's more, apparently similar packages are, in fact, quite different since nokia patched the sources, it is a sysiphean task to port packages to maemo. and i am afraid things won't change for the ebtter with meego which uses some kind of redhat/fedora, but not redhat/fedora. package creation and dependency resolution is done with an attitude bordering on incompetence. for example: one one hand every language supported is separated into a single *-l10n-* package and for all those *l10n-* package there's a meta package. but instead of using recoomends and provides, the "meta" package depends on _all_ *-l10n-* packages and the top most package (the dependency graph has exactly one top node!) depends on those "meta" packages. separating packages is thus completely pointless. together with the weird layout of storage space (256mb "rootfs" which gets filled up pretty fast), this idea of dependency handling is plain stupid and you are stuck with a bunch of packages you don't need but can't uninstall (the normal way) or remove forcibly b/c it is not clear what will happen the next time you run an update ... the included "app manager" is a bad joke and you'r better off using xterm and apt-get. despite the claim of delivering not only a smartphone but a pocket size computer, you are left with crappy and crippled busybox instead of a fully functional gnui environment. error management is poor, usually you get useless messages of the kind "something went wrong" and are left to your imagination to figure out what you should do about that. keyboard is h/w, layout is not the best in twon, which is confusing since nokia provided far more intelligenbt keyboard layouts with other phones. on screen keyboard is not much better, imo it has become even worse with pr1.2. i don't see an easy way to change the layout of the vkb, which is perfectly in style with the very limited ways of customization available (you can't even change the font sizes!). window manager is a matchbox derivate, customization is little (see above) and even minor requirements like battery charge level are not available except a very rough icon. the sole and only distribution available (so far) is maemo. considering the long history of maemo and the version number (5), it is crap. nokia's communication about future plans and development are hardly worth mentioning. there's still no reliable information whether meego will be officially supported. there are a few attempts to make debian working on it, either by using plain debian and reimplementing closed parts (dead, iirc) or by using plain debian and repacking maemo specific packages, not sure how that will work with closed source packages ... if all you are looking for is the feeling of using a somewhat open linux phone with a nice and polished gui, the n900 with maemo is perfect for you. in terms of finish and reliabilty it easily outclasses the fr. in terms of freedom (not only philiosphically but plain practical freedom of choice of packages or wm), the fr is far far better, and judging from nokia's past attitude it's not very likely it will become much better. the best hope is for either a debian using nokia's closed source packages for crucial functioanlity or a port of eg fso- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My N900 experience compared to my FR experience (was: Re: [QtMoko] handset is (almost) unusable for voice calls with background noise)
On Wed, Jul 07, 2010 at 10:12:31PM +0200, Michal Brzozowski wrote: > 2010/7/7 Brolin Empey : > > I know the N900’s kernel is relatively old (2.6.28.x) and the N900 is > > less open than the FR, but this does not matter to me because it is an > > acceptable compromise in order to have a far better experience with a > > more powerful and current device. > > Thanks for your review, I'm glad you've had good experience. > > >From what you've written though, it seems you use your N900/ FR for: > - SMS > - voice calls > - Wireless LAN connection > > I'm sure just about any phone is better than the FR in your case. > > I'd like to hear how the N900 compares to the FR in hackability. Like > replacing pieces of software, like keyboard, window manager, etc. I > wasn't able to find much information about this. It seems there is > only one distribution that fully works on the N900, which is quite > worrying. You may be interested in this: https://elektranox.org/website/debian_on_n900.html -- Sebastian signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My N900 experience compared to my FR experience (was: Re: [QtMoko] handset is (almost) unusable for voice calls with background noise)
On Wed, Jul 07, 2010 at 10:05:25PM +0200, Petr Vanek wrote: > On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 22:45:05 +0300 > Timo Jyrinki (TJ) wrote: > > >FreeRunner is a bit like an old (classic) car - you know it will need > >great care, you know it's not the fastest four-wheel on the block, but > >damn it's elegant when you've yourself made it go so smoothly and know > >how beautiful it is inside :) > > agree. > > interestingly enough, the ex-FR -> N900 user did not mention or compare > speed of the two devices even once. so although speed is important > (eagerly awaiting latest glamo development to be fine tuned) this > tells us something too... > > cheers > > petr Hi, I have N900 and Freerunner, too. I have to say, that I'm mostly using the N900, too. My reasons are: * Hardware keyboard * 3.5G modem * communication software is quite nice :) As you can see I'm mostly using it for instant messaging and not for SMS/Phone/... On the other hand I was able to find bugs in most components of Maemo - the level of stability is not that much higher than Freerunner + Debian. I can also give a fair speed comparision, since I installed Debian on both devices on µSD cards. In short: N900 hardware is twice as fast than the Freerunner. -- Sebastian signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My N900 experience compared to my FR experience (was: Re: [QtMoko] handset is (almost) unusable for voice calls with background noise)
2010/7/7 Brolin Empey : > I know the N900’s kernel is relatively old (2.6.28.x) and the N900 is > less open than the FR, but this does not matter to me because it is an > acceptable compromise in order to have a far better experience with a > more powerful and current device. Thanks for your review, I'm glad you've had good experience. >From what you've written though, it seems you use your N900/ FR for: - SMS - voice calls - Wireless LAN connection I'm sure just about any phone is better than the FR in your case. I'd like to hear how the N900 compares to the FR in hackability. Like replacing pieces of software, like keyboard, window manager, etc. I wasn't able to find much information about this. It seems there is only one distribution that fully works on the N900, which is quite worrying. Michal ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My N900 experience compared to my FR experience (was: Re: [QtMoko] handset is (almost) unusable for voice calls with background noise)
On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 22:45:05 +0300 Timo Jyrinki (TJ) wrote: >FreeRunner is a bit like an old (classic) car - you know it will need >great care, you know it's not the fastest four-wheel on the block, but >damn it's elegant when you've yourself made it go so smoothly and know >how beautiful it is inside :) agree. interestingly enough, the ex-FR -> N900 user did not mention or compare speed of the two devices even once. so although speed is important (eagerly awaiting latest glamo development to be fine tuned) this tells us something too... cheers petr ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My N900 experience compared to my FR experience (was: Re: [QtMoko] handset is (almost) unusable for voice calls with background noise)
2010/7/7 Brolin Empey : > I know the N900’s kernel is relatively old (2.6.28.x) and the N900 is > less open than the FR, but this does not matter to me because it is an > acceptable compromise in order to have a far better experience with a > more powerful and current device. Sure, a finished product from world's biggest phone manufacturer no doubt works better (even if also their first Linux phone). And I also recommend N900 to anyone. FreeRunner is the no-compromise way for freedom enthusiasts like me, or people liking to hack otherwise but have some actual spare phone for basic phone usage (because the phone part is one of the most difficult aspects to get working trustworthily if using a heavily hackable and changing distribution like Debian). I'm myself also quite happy with my FR (running Debian) overall, given that I have a separate 3G modem for computer use, but with FR you know you always need to do some hacking :) Well, maybe not much with QtMoko but I've heard it specifically has had some SMS problems. The other distributions need tweaking for sure, even SHR. Then if you have one working setup and don't touch it, you can safely use it for months trouble-free, but it's not always apparent what versions of the FSO stack for example are good for daily use. FreeRunner is a bit like an old (classic) car - you know it will need great care, you know it's not the fastest four-wheel on the block, but damn it's elegant when you've yourself made it go so smoothly and know how beautiful it is inside :) -Timo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
My N900 experience compared to my FR experience (was: Re: [QtMoko] handset is (almost) unusable for voice calls with background noise)
Brolin Empey wrote: > Anyway, I finally ordered a Nokia N900 from NewEgg.ca on Sunday. I > expect the N900 to be more usable as a handset than my FR. Nokia > released the N900 without USB Host support to meet deadlines because > they could not have it certified for USB Host without fully working USB > Host at the time of certification, but on Sunday I learned it is still > possible for the N900 to use USB Host: there is a community project to > make USB Host usage easy for end users. To be practical, I probably do > not need USB Host on my N900 because it has a hardware keyboard and the > Wireless LAN probably works easily, unlike my poor and frustrating > experience trying to use Wireless LANs with QtMoko. However, lack of USB > Host was one of the reasons I did not order an N900 months ago because > the FR has USB Host. After I receive my N900, I will follow up to let > this list know if my N900 experience is better than my FR experience. I have been using Maemo 5 on my N900 for a few weeks now. So far, my N900 experience is *far* better than my FR experience. Unlike QtMoko, SMS works reliably on my N900. Maemo 5 also has conversation view for SMS, which is far more usable than QtMoko, which displays only one message at a time. Unlike my FR, my N900 is actually a usable handset, even with background noise. I can even talk on my N900 on a public street while being passed by motor vehicles and pedestrians talking. Two people have mentioned how much clearer I sound on my N900 than with QtMoko. As I expected, I can live without USB Host on my N900 because of the hardware keyboard and working Wireless LAN. My N900 works well with our access point at work, which runs DD-WRT on a Linksys WRT54GL v1.1. My N900’s Wireless LAN connection was unreliable with my access point at home, which is a crappy Siemens Gigaset SE567 wireless ADSL gateway provided by Telus, my ADSL provider. I wanted to replace the Gigaset SE567, which is owned by Telus, with a separate single-purpose ADSL modem + gateway running DD-WRT anyway because the Gigaset SE567 does not support WPA2 and traceroute does not work through it. I was going to buy another WRT54GL to install DD-WRT on because I knew this combination worked well at work and I was already familiar with it, but I researched current gateways and ended up buying an Asus RT-N16. My N900 works well with DD-WRT on my Asus RT-N16 at home. I have not even configured USB networking on my N900 because the instructions on the Maemo wiki looked like too much hassle and I do not need a wired connection because I have a reliable wireless LAN connection at both home and work. I know the N900’s kernel is relatively old (2.6.28.x) and the N900 is less open than the FR, but this does not matter to me because it is an acceptable compromise in order to have a far better experience with a more powerful and current device. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
