Re: GTA03 wish list (was: What US plans are people using?)
On 22 Apr 2008, at 23:05, ian douglas wrote: Travis Tabbal wrote: Of course, a quad band setup would be preferred Hey OpenMoko team, has anyone started a wish-list for the GTA03 yet? - true quad-band - a place to hide a stylus - anti pooch pouch poaching device One of the objectives of openmoko is to no need to use the stylus at all ... When devels talk about mokofy (port to openmoko) some aplication one of the chalenges is to use it with out stylus. http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016014.html I was VERY pleased the other day to read this, as I find it fiddly to mess around with a stylus. Despite previous phones I've owned having stylus holders, I have always lost them. I guess a stylus holder simply doesn't actually _hold_ so well. Apart from this, it always seems to me much more natural to use my fingers, but of course on previous phones the on-screen buttons are too small. I would love a link, if anyone has one, to official developer documentation stating the no-stylus requirement. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 wish list (was: What US plans are people using?)
I don't think the games were ported. I thought they were just a simply cross-compile to show that they would work on Openmoko. I think the intention is that you should be able to do most things without a stylus. It says essentially that on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Applications#Overview That said, this is opensource! You can't force every developer to design their program for finger operation. Some app just might not be usable without a stylus and that's up to the developer. If you don't like it, modify the source and change the GUI. The one thing I've written[1] was specifically designed to be finger-friendly as I don't intend to carry a stylus around with me either. -Steven [1] http://projects.openmoko.org/projects/moko-sudoku/ On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of the objectives of openmoko is to no need to use the stylus at all ... When devels talk about mokofy (port to openmoko) some aplication one of the chalenges is to use it with out stylus. Either this is NOT a real goal of Openmoko or the developers suck at it. There are SEVERAL applications on Openmoko that require a stylus (many of the games, for instance). As far as I know, the criteria Openmoko apps must be usable with fingers has never been set. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 wish list (was: What US plans are people using?)
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Steven ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think the games were ported. I thought they were just a simply cross-compile to show that they would work on Openmoko. I think the intention is that you should be able to do most things without a stylus. It says essentially that on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Applications#Overview That said, this is opensource! You can't force every developer to design their program for finger operation. A point of clarification... I'm not referring to every app, I'm referring specifically to the applications that Openmoko will be releasing. Perhaps this is an incorrect assumption, but I am under the impression that Openmoko Inc. will be writing and releasing software to do the things their hardware devices are advertised as being able to do. They say GPS Navigation and I assume Openmoko Inc. will provide customers with a GPS navigation application. Same for dialer (since the device is advertised as being able to make phone calls) and so on. the device isn't advertised as a home automation remote control, but it MIGHT be if the user decided to go beyond what the consumer device is being sold to do. Someone can write an application in Qt 4.4 and SAY it's a Gnome application, but it's not. Likewise, if it doesn't conform to the guidelines specified for Openmoko it's not really an Openmoko app, if that makes sense. Some app just might not be usable without a stylus and that's up to the developer. If you don't like it, modify the source and change the GUI. Keep in mind that Freerunner is designed to be a mass market product. That's very true that this can be done but making that action a REQUIREMENT for consistant applications is directly opposite the ideas of a mass market device. The one thing I've written[1] was specifically designed to be finger-friendly as I don't intend to carry a stylus around with me either. -Steven [1] http://projects.openmoko.org/projects/moko-sudoku/ On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of the objectives of openmoko is to no need to use the stylus at all ... When devels talk about mokofy (port to openmoko) some aplication one of the chalenges is to use it with out stylus. Either this is NOT a real goal of Openmoko or the developers suck at it. There are SEVERAL applications on Openmoko that require a stylus (many of the games, for instance). As far as I know, the criteria Openmoko apps must be usable with fingers has never been set. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 wish list (was: What US plans are people using?)
It's not a mass market device until you write the software to make it one. ;-) -Steven On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:46 PM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keep in mind that Freerunner is designed to be a mass market product. That's very true that this can be done but making that action a REQUIREMENT for consistant applications is directly opposite the ideas of a mass market device. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GTA03 wish list (was: What US plans are people using?)
We had a many debates about this: finger fans on one side, stylus guys on the other side. In the end the spirit of openness prevailed. Since its open source we cannot require or determine or impose any kind of thou shalt not use thy finger or thou shalt use the stylus Generally speaking I think a good portion of us in OM, would like to see a finger thing, falling back to stylus when the finger simply cannot do the job. So internally a flexible pragmatic philosophy, externally, folks can do whatever floats their boat. as it should be. So, the Box contains a stylus. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Dean Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 10:00 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: GTA03 wish list (was: What US plans are people using?) On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of the objectives of openmoko is to no need to use the stylus at all ... When devels talk about mokofy (port to openmoko) some aplication one of the chalenges is to use it with out stylus. Either this is NOT a real goal of Openmoko or the developers suck at it. There are SEVERAL applications on Openmoko that require a stylus (many of the games, for instance). As far as I know, the criteria Openmoko apps must be usable with fingers has never been set. http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016014.html Pardon me if I'm mistaken, but the person who said that isn't a developer, let alone someone with the authority to ensure the developers comply with that directive on Openmoko released applications. I was VERY pleased the other day to read this, as I find it fiddly to mess around with a stylus. I hate the stylus with a PASSION too. In my opinion, this is NOT a GTA03 issue but a GTA02 issue. There's debate ove the box contents of the Freerunner. If the box does NOT include a stylus, I think the software applications MUST be written in a way that is functional without it. I'm of the opinion that everything needed to use the device must be included in the box. You don't NEED an SD card to use the Freerunner but you DO need a battery. If the software that will be Openmoko REQUIRES a stylus, I think it's really a crappy thing to do for Openmoko NOT to ship one with the box. Making this decision is, in my opinion, important NOW. Despite previous phones I've owned having stylus holders, I have always lost them. I guess a stylus holder simply doesn't actually _hold_ so well. The idea of a device that does everything is to eliminate the need to carry around an address book, an ipod, a GPS navigation device, a calculator and so on. Without a way to tuck the stylus away it's adding to the number of items a person has to carry around (and track). I personally carry my Neo, my wallet and my car keys (which actually CAN work as a stylus, as long as I'm not driving). I don't carry a pen and I don't carry a stylus. A dependancy on the stylus on the applications would INCREASE the number of things I have to carry around (which to me, decreases the value of a Neo). Apart from this, it always seems to me much more natural to use my fingers, but of course on previous phones the on-screen buttons are too small. I would love a link, if anyone has one, to official developer documentation stating the no-stylus requirement. As far as I know, there isn't one. In fact, I think the guildelines for application development are either non-existant, incomplete or flat out disregarded. This is something that raises a bit of uncertainty... What toolkits are supposed to be used? (GTK is in the default image, but Illume is an Openmoko project that uses EFL... Should EFL be considered a part of the default Openmoko stack? What UI conventions are there? Some Openmoko apps use popups (like adding a new contact from dialer) where as the vast majority of others use a tab based system (like adding a new playlist in Media Player). From my perspective, there's not much organization on what actually should happen on Openmoko to keep things consistant (keeping in mind that the KDE/Gnome working together like crap is a BIG reason GNU/Linux looses mass appeal - people demand consistancy. It's why Apple's products are instantly recognizable and revered for being sexy.) Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 wish list (was: What US plans are people using?)
Challenge is not a obligation nor a contract nor even a requirement , but if neo's has been designed without any stylus holder is because the intention is not to need it in day by day (common) use, but there is a lot of good stylus friendly applications out there ready to be used so every is free include it in his neo and OM with his package manager for sure will be happy to include in his repository to an easy and happy install.them But for sure a lot of this applications can become(or new ones directly created to be) finger friendly and if anybody (OM team included) consider that this worth the effort it will do. As long I was able to see naturally those applications that make sense to be managed on the run(phone calls/messaging, players, gps even a doc viewer) will be more likely to be used by fingers only; but those that need more attention to manage and a lot of features/options/paremetric/precision needing will be more difficult and meaningless to be managed without stylus. A better description about soft included or to be included finger/stylus ready here And now will come the free source magic, that a lot of newcomers, and even lazy veterans are afraid of... If you don't like it , you are free to change it or try to convince any one to do it for you, to do so try good arguments and reasons and if it doesn't work try to use the money , it's incredible how many developers agree to work for money ;) An remember if you don't want to carry the stylus everywhere you can always enter a bar and take a toothstick :) (for sure I will have to do it more than one time) Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Steven ** wrote: I don't think the games were ported. I thought they were just a simply cross-compile to show that they would work on Openmoko. I think the intention is that you should be able to do most things without a stylus. It says essentially that on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Applications#Overview That said, this is opensource! You can't force every developer to design their program for finger operation. A point of clarification... I'm not referring to every app, I'm referring specifically to the applications that Openmoko will be releasing. Perhaps this is an incorrect assumption, but I am under the impression that Openmoko Inc. will be writing and releasing software to do the things their hardware devices are advertised as being able to do. They say GPS Navigation and I assume Openmoko Inc. will provide customers with a GPS navigation application. Same for dialer (since the device is advertised as being able to make phone calls) and so on. the device isn't advertised as a home automation remote control, but it MIGHT be if the user decided to go beyond what the consumer device is being sold to do. Someone can write an application in Qt 4.4 and SAY it's a Gnome application, but it's not. Likewise, if it doesn't conform to the guidelines specified for Openmoko it's not really an Openmoko app, if that makes sense. Some app just might not be usable without a stylus and that's up to the developer. If you don't like it, modify the source and change the GUI. Keep in mind that Freerunner is designed to be a mass market product. That's very true that this can be done but making that action a REQUIREMENT for consistant applications is directly opposite the ideas of a mass market device. The one thing I've written[1] was specifically designed to be finger-friendly as I don't intend to carry a stylus around with me either. -Steven [1] http://projects.openmoko.org/projects/moko-sudoku/ On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Kevin Dean wrote: On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Stroller wrote: One of the objectives of openmoko is to no need to use the stylus at all ... When devels talk about mokofy (port to openmoko) some aplication one of the chalenges is to use it with out stylus. Either this is NOT a real goal of Openmoko or the developers suck at it. There are SEVERAL applications on Openmoko that require a stylus (many of the games, for instance). As far as I know, the criteria Openmoko apps must be usable with fingers has never been set. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community - Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada más inteligente. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
