Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Margo Koppelmann margo.koppelm...@gmail.com writes: But there's one problem with the headset. I bought a 2.5-3.5 adapter for my headphones. And if I push it fully in then the music comes only from the right headphone. I have to pull it out a little for the music to come from both phones. I bet you use an adapter with an incorrect pinout. Check the wiki. Correct adapter works properly when inserted fully. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Tschaka stuff4tsch...@gmx.net wrote: Huh, thanks for your effort! This sounds nice and would totally fit my battery need for one day i guess. expecting some improvements later things would be even better, but apparently it already is well enough for my needs :) One more question: i guess you put the phone in suspend mode during the inactive time? furthermore i read some issues on audio quality lately. is the quality of audio playback acceptable with headset? Thanks for your help! Yes, my phone is on suspend when I don't use it. If I use my FR only for making calls (I only make a few calls every day), playing some games and maybe a little GPRS usage then the battery lasts about 50 hours. I can't say about the audio quality, I usually listen to punk rock music, so the audio quality is not important for me :D But there's one problem with the headset. I bought a 2.5-3.5 adapter for my headphones. And if I push it fully in then the music comes only from the right headphone. I have to pull it out a little for the music to come from both phones. If you want to use Freerunner with OM2008.12 as a usable phone and music player and internet device and gps device then there's so many things you have to install and configure before it's usable. It took me a lot of time to get everything installed and configured (and there's still some things to do). But now there's the Kustomizer ( http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Kustomizer ), maybe this can make life a little easier. I use my Freerunner currently as my everyday phone. But I always have my old Nokia with me. Just in case. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Running Kustomizer (was Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02 (Margo Koppelmann))
On Feb 11, 2009, at 00:19 , community-requ...@lists.openmoko.org wrote: Send community mailing list submissions to community@lists.openmoko.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to community-requ...@lists.openmoko.org You can reach the person managing the list at community-ow...@lists.openmoko.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of community digest... Today's Topics: 1. Euphony Beta 1 release (Thomas Gst?dtner) 2. Re: Openmoko Autobuilder (Rod Whitby) 3. Re: [SHR - latest unstable] endless ringing (Joel Newkirk) 4. Re: [FSO M5] Paroli-Apps crash with 'Screen' object has no attribute 'etk_obj (Guillaume Chereau) 5. Re: yaouh! 0.4 is out (Risto H. Kurppa) 6. Re: opkg-deb (kimaidou) 7. Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02 (Margo Koppelmann) 8. Re: [FSO M5] Paroli-Apps crash with 'Screen' object has no attribute 'etk_obj (Arigead) 9. Neo FreeRunner on FLOSS Manuals (William Lai) From: Margo Koppelmann margo.koppelm...@gmail.com Date: February 11, 2009 12:09:35 AM PST To: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02 Reply-To: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org [...] If you want to use Freerunner with OM2008.12 as a usable phone and music player and internet device and gps device then there's so many things you have to install and configure before it's usable. It took me a lot of time to get everything installed and configured (and there's still some things to do). But now there's the Kustomizer ( http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Kustomizer ), maybe this can make life a little easier. I ran Kustomizer last night following the Wiki docs and it took a while, but it worked and I was happy to see an updater/package installer run to completion w/ out crashing for once. Sorry to be such a cynic, I know people work hard to make things nicer for us in the OpenMoko community. I guess I've been burned a lot on packaging dependancies and prereqs on Linux in general over the years so my first thought when trying something like that is to wonder how something is going to break. Fortunately, I was not disappointed. I've had my FR for about 2 weeks now and I really think it does take some time of modding and hacking on it to get it to not just be usable, but usable how you want. That, IMHO, is why you're buying an FR rather than what the carrier shops have for sale. My current setup on my FR is with a Kustomized Om 2008-12 flashed into NVRAM and Qtopia on microSD. Steve ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 01:32, Timo Juhani Lindfors timo.lindf...@iki.fi wrote: Kernel version should not matter here as long as you are powering down the appropriate devices? It does, because older kernel may not power down correctly these devices... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
2009/1/31 Tschaka stuff4tsch...@gmx.net 2) Calls My main problem with the FR at the moment is that the volume in the built-in earpiece, and wired headset as well are way too low. It works in a quiet indoor environment, but on a busy street I can hardly hear that someone is talking on the phone at all, and in a room with other people talking in the background, it is difficult to hear the person at the other end. Does anyone else have this problem? I'm surprised it isn't discussed more. This prevents me from using the FR as a daily phone, because I need to be able to answer calls even when I'm out and about. My impression is that this is a hardware limitation, and that even with max volume from the GSM chip to the audio codec (CLVL=255), and maximum Alsa volumes, the volume won't be high enough from the earpiece.. I think the only way around this is to use a Bluetooth headset, but I don't think the Bluetooth headset profile works in the version of the bluetooth stack (bluez-3) that's on the Freerunner now. /Erland ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
On Tuesday 10 February 2009, Erland Lewin wrote: 2009/1/31 Tschaka stuff4tsch...@gmx.net 2) Calls My main problem with the FR at the moment is that the volume in the built-in earpiece, and wired headset as well are way too low. It works in a quiet indoor environment, but on a busy street I can hardly hear that someone is talking on the phone at all, and in a room with other people talking in the background, it is difficult to hear the person at the other end. Does anyone else have this problem? I'm surprised it isn't discussed more. Volume is subjectively comparable to that on my SE K700i. Both have volume controls, and both manage a level I'm happy with, even before messing with CLVL. This prevents me from using the FR as a daily phone, because I need to be able to answer calls even when I'm out and about. My impression is that this is a hardware limitation, and that even with max volume from the GSM chip to the audio codec (CLVL=255), and maximum Alsa volumes, the volume won't be high enough from the earpiece. Either we have a different expectation of required volume or your hardware is different from mine, assuming you adjusted the mixer settings correctly. I think the only way around this is to use a Bluetooth headset, but I don't think the Bluetooth headset profile works in the version of the bluetooth stack (bluez-3) that's on the Freerunner now. I'm sure Angus Ainslie reported he had it working some time ago with bluez-3. I thought it was just the A2DP part that may require bluez-4. I haven't got a bluetooth headset so I haven't tried either though. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
2009/2/10 Al Johnson openm...@mazikeen.demon.co.uk On Tuesday 10 February 2009, Erland Lewin wrote: 2009/1/31 Tschaka stuff4tsch...@gmx.net 2) Calls My main problem with the FR at the moment is that the volume in the built-in earpiece, and wired headset as well are way too low. It works in a quiet indoor environment, but on a busy street I can hardly hear that someone is talking on the phone at all, and in a room with other people talking in the background, it is difficult to hear the person at the other end. Does anyone else have this problem? I'm surprised it isn't discussed more. Volume is subjectively comparable to that on my SE K700i. Both have volume controls, and both manage a level I'm happy with, even before messing with CLVL. This prevents me from using the FR as a daily phone, because I need to be able to answer calls even when I'm out and about. My impression is that this is a hardware limitation, and that even with max volume from the GSM chip to the audio codec (CLVL=255), and maximum Alsa volumes, the volume won't be high enough from the earpiece. Either we have a different expectation of required volume or your hardware is different from mine, assuming you adjusted the mixer settings correctly. Ok, this is interesting. What distro kernel do you use, and could you post your gsmhandset.state file? I'd love to try whatever you're running. /Erland ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 11:25:25 + Al Johnson openm...@mazikeen.demon.co.uk wrote: I think the only way around this is to use a Bluetooth headset, but I don't think the Bluetooth headset profile works in the version of the bluetooth stack (bluez-3) that's on the Freerunner now. I'm sure Angus Ainslie reported he had it working some time ago with bluez-3. I thought it was just the A2DP part that may require bluez-4. It might be the other way around :-) I have A2DP working with bluez-3, as described on the A2DP page on the wiki. Probably it will work with bluez-4 as well, but I've so far not had any luck with FSO (perhaps due to some package mixup). I really wish bluetooth would be less hassle to setup - it's not exactly rocket science after all. I guess the headset profile should work fine as well, but I've not tried that so far. // Simon ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
On 1/31/09, Tschaka stuff4tsch...@gmx.net wrote: So, again somebody is asking a question about usabilty. Please don't get me wrong, i actually browsed the mailing lists and wikis, but still there are some unsure things, and i'd like to have a bit more of a summarization. I'm interested in buying an openmoko Neo Freerunner, but i'd like to get to know some things before i will. I'm a student, so 300 €(even 249 €, Pulster ;) ) is an amount of money i can't spend every month, or w/o any effort. So i don't want to end up getting a Neo now, being unsatisfied and getting a gta03/other brand later this or next year. I'm not that deep into Linux, but i'm running Ubuntu reasonably well, so i'm not totally unfamiliar with linux. i know what svn/git is, and wouldnt be totally unable to build somethings from sources - although it's not an every day task here. So, here's my list of questions, i hope somebody will answer and clear them up a bit :) 1st) Battery Power sometimes i'm at university from 9am to 10pm 6 days a week. I'm often browsing mobile news pages with my phone when going to university, or having a chat (XMPP of course!), approx 40 minutes a day. In the meantime i'm listening to music. I got no actual watch, so my phone is my watch, means i often activate the background light to get to know the time. I'm sending like 1-5 messages a day, having a phone call now and then. Now and then i would like to access the web via wifi. So, since i'm not able to plug the phone to a power source at university, would i be able to run it the whole day, without getting out of battery power after 10 hours? And, will there be a (software) fix (soon) for the issue, that the battery gets uncharged, even if plugged in, as soon as the battery is fully charged? (i got no problem charging the phone every night, but when it's fully charged at 2am, it would have been running 7 hours on battery power by my arrival at university, so the battery would be low sooner) 2) Calls As i'm sometimes having a phone call (huh, surprise), i would like to know, if the echo, and especially the buzzing issue will be fixed soon. I read, the echo was fixed in FSO/SHR already, but regarding the buzz i read the mailing list, but there i didnt feel i got a reliable answer(sorry for asking again). i'm not familiar with soldering iron, and i'm not willing to crack up another phone (already did once this way :) ). So, will there a fix of this buzzing soonish by default (a7, a8?) on the base of the often refered capacitor? (as i said, i'm not willing to pay twice, getting a gta03 later due to unfixed buzz problems, or replacing a damaged freerunner). Also, i'm not willing to pay 300€ for a phone that doesnt allow me to have a nice talk with my dad or gf on an at least acceptable level for the person on the other end (u know, my gf isn't that patient and insightfull with opensource software(issues) as i am, it took me weeks and shutting down icq completely to convince her to use xmpp :) ) 3) Software I got no problem with rudimentary software. Most important thing is Sending messages, Having a few Calls, Having GPS apps to improve Openstreetmap and such and browsing the web. I know the software is something being worked on, and apparently it improved a lot already. But: Do such basic features work already (like browsing phone book to make a call) acceptably reliable? I'm patient in handling problems and fiddling around a bit, wanting to have a succes in the end though. And: how sluggish is the software? i often read glamo slows the phone down pretty much. 4) GTA03? Or would u rather advise me to wait for GTA03? I really want to support Openmoko, and to be honest, as i heard first of openmoko like 2 years ago, i already wanted to have one. On the other hand, i'm sorry to say, that such fundamental bugs hold me back getting one yet. But according to the wiki, gta03 will have features like EDGE, a Cam, better battery and removed glamo (rather fast software feeling and video performance?) that sound very interesting. EGDE would be nice, but for me isn't necessary, and as Cam i could use my current phone. But shall i, at least, rather wait for a7, or a8 if i want a buzz fix by default? at the moment, this is, besides battery life, the issue that concerns me most. 5) Summarize Long story short, i don't want to get disappointed buying a neo. I mean, fancy features, software and such is nice to have, but if fundamental things won't work (acceptable), I and many others won't support Openmoko on the long term, means replacing the Neo with a later release of Openmoko in 1,2 or 3 years. and, as sean moss pultz wrote, John Doe won't see any advantage of getting an openmoko over other open (haha, at least on his point of view) phones like iPhone, and Android ones. Hopefully i'll get some constructive hints on my questions, and if i'd rather wait, or buy on the spur of
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:54 PM, Margo Koppelmann margo.koppelm...@gmail.com wrote: I left my Freerunner charging for the knight. In the morning the battery was 94% charged. 8:00 - Battery is 94%. I start to listen to music (.ogg) with my FR. Screen is blanked during this. 8:40 - I stop listening to music. Battery is 86%. 17:00 - Battery is 68%. I start surfing the web using GPRS. 17:17 - I stop surfing the web. Battery is 64%. 18:35 - Battery is 54%. I start to listen to music (with blanked screen). 19:12 - I stop listening to music. Battery is 46%. 21:40 - Battery is 40%. I start surfing the web over wifi. During the day I've made a few phone calls, sent one sms, used the GPS with tangoGPS for about 10 minutes, played some games and checked regularly for the battery state. Right now I'm still using the wifi and I'm writing this mail on my FR. I'ts 22:51 and battery is 12% charged. Sorry, I forgot - I'm using OM2008.12 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Huh, thanks for your effort! This sounds nice and would totally fit my battery need for one day i guess. expecting some improvements later things would be even better, but apparently it already is well enough for my needs :) One more question: i guess you put the phone in suspend mode during the inactive time? furthermore i read some issues on audio quality lately. is the quality of audio playback acceptable with headset? Thanks for your help! Marx wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:54 PM, Margo Koppelmann margo.koppelm...@gmail.com wrote: I left my Freerunner charging for the knight. In the morning the battery was 94% charged. 8:00 - Battery is 94%. I start to listen to music (.ogg) with my FR. Screen is blanked during this. 8:40 - I stop listening to music. Battery is 86%. 17:00 - Battery is 68%. I start surfing the web using GPRS. 17:17 - I stop surfing the web. Battery is 64%. 18:35 - Battery is 54%. I start to listen to music (with blanked screen). 19:12 - I stop listening to music. Battery is 46%. 21:40 - Battery is 40%. I start surfing the web over wifi. During the day I've made a few phone calls, sent one sms, used the GPS with tangoGPS for about 10 minutes, played some games and checked regularly for the battery state. Right now I'm still using the wifi and I'm writing this mail on my FR. I'ts 22:51 and battery is 12% charged. Sorry, I forgot - I'm using OM2008.12 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Questions-about-the-usability-of-GTA02-tp2249982p2305114.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
On Sun, Feb 01, 2009 at 11:46:31PM +0100, Rask Ingemann Lambertsen wrote: [on battery power] The following is with the Debian distribution (with ancient 2.6.24 kernel), xscreensaver not installed and GSM off: Suspended: 20 % battery charge remaining after 3 days. If sitting idle (not suspended) with the screen blanked: 20 hours[1]. But 7 hours drain 38 % of capacity, which gives about 18.5 hours instaed. I've checked out the 2.6.28 kernel from the andy-tracking branch, and it does better. After 12 hours, there's still 37 % charge left in the battery with an estimated 7.5 hours left. Where the 2.6.24 kernel would draw 56 mA from a fully charged battery, the 2.6.28 kernel is down to 49 mA and with 37 % carge left, it is only up to 55 mA at 3.78 V. IIRC, the parts that take power directly from the battery are GSM, the audio amplifier and the vibrator motor. USB 5 V power supply too, btw. -- Rask Ingemann Lambertsen Danish law requires addresses in e-mail to be logged and stored for a year ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Rask Ingemann Lambertsen r...@sygehus.dk writes: I've checked out the 2.6.28 kernel from the andy-tracking branch, and it does better. After 12 hours, there's still 37 % charge left in the battery with an estimated 7.5 hours left. Where the 2.6.24 kernel would draw 56 mA from a fully charged battery, the 2.6.28 kernel is down to 49 mA and with 37 % carge left, it is only up to 55 mA at 3.78 V. Kernel version should not matter here as long as you are powering down the appropriate devices? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Questions about the usability of GTA02
-Message d'origine- I am in Torino (Italy) and own a FR, so if someone what to try my FR we can meet. Best regards Michele Renda I think that most users here would love too to let other interested users try their FR. Maybe we could setup some kind of map where you could register, so if someone wants to try a FR it would be easier to find someone close? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Rask Ingemann Lambertsen wrote: On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 06:11:58AM -0800, Tschaka wrote: So, again somebody is asking a question about usabilty. Please don't get me wrong, i actually browsed the mailing lists and wikis, but still there are some unsure things, and i'd like to have a bit more of a summarization. I'm interested in buying an openmoko Neo Freerunner, Why? What is it that you expect the Neo Freerunner to do that the other handheld devices out there won't? You will have noticed that pretty much all the unhappy users are those expecting the Neo Freerunner to be just another well polished smartphone. If you buy a Neo Freerunner, do it for the right reasons so you avoid disappointment. For example, the reasons _I_ bought a Freerunner instead of one of the competing devices: 1) I can install and use the programs _I_ want, even if nobody else sees the point. Example: For trainspotting, I want a database with freight train timetables and a front end so I can look up train passage times when at a station. 2) A screen big enough to do 1). 480x640 is better than most handhelds. 3) A GNU/Linux environment like on my desktop system, which means I can basicly do the same things on the go as I do at home. 4) Enough RAM to do 1) and 3). Most such devices have less than 128 MB. 5) An external USB port! Combined with 3), the possibilities are nearly endless. Just look at all the USB devices out there, ready to plug in. E.g. even though the Neo doesn't have a built in 3G modem, a USB one can be added. The Freerunner also connects fine to a USB cable modem, just 'ifup eth1' and off you go. 6) Schematics. It brings me the sort of excitement and enthusiasm I experienced back in around 1990 when I bought an Amiga 500 and found the schematics in the back of the manual. I did some hardware upgrades to my Amiga 500 and I'll likely be doing a few to my Freerunner as well. See also: The hardware list. 7) Generally, if there's something I'm not happy with on the Freerunner, I'll have a much better chance of being able to change it to my liking. 8) I will eventually need a replacement for my more than 5 years old Samsung phone. It's not just that the battery has aged noticably, the Samsung also has a number of silly misfeatures such as refusing to adjust speaker volume while in soundless mode, no way to use sound recordings as ringtones and no way of entering '+' in a phone number. See also 7). Neither the Android Dev Phone 1/T-Mobile G1, the iPhone or the Nokia N810 live up to all of the above points. I have not carefully checked if one of the many HTC devices would suit me better. 1st) Battery Power sometimes i'm at university from 9am to 10pm 6 days a week. I'm often browsing mobile news pages with my phone when going to university, or having a chat (XMPP of course!), approx 40 minutes a day. In the meantime i'm listening to music. I got no actual watch, so my phone is my watch, means i often activate the background light to get to know the time. I'm sending like 1-5 messages a day, having a phone call now and then. Now and then i would like to access the web via wifi. So, since i'm not able to plug the phone to a power source at university, would i be able to run it the whole day, without getting out of battery power after 10 hours? The following is with the Debian distribution (with ancient 2.6.24 kernel), xscreensaver not installed and GSM off: Suspended: 20 % battery charge remaining after 3 days. If sitting idle (not suspended) with the screen blanked: 20 hours[1]. But 7 hours drain 38 % of capacity, which gives about 18.5 hours instaed. If sitting idle (not suspended) with full backlight on: 5.5 hours[1]. Playing music[2] using mikmod with the screen blanked: 7.5 hours[1]. Playing music[2] using alsaplayer with the screen blanked: 6 hours[1]. Playing music[2] using alsaplayer with full backlight on: 3.5 hours[1]. Shooting video[3] with full backlight on: Well under 3 hours. ;-) Some distributions automatically suspend after a while, others don't. Some distributions don't unblank the screen while locked, so you can e.g. put it in a pocket while playing music without wasting battery power on backlight. ISTR this works fine in OM2008.9, but it doesn't in Debian. :-( There's a nasty power management bug somewhere which means that if you've had GSM on and turn it off, power consumption increases a lot: https://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/hardware/2009-January/000933.html I suppose it won't affect you when using the Neo as a phone. So in short, I think you should be able to use the Neo for 13 hours on battery power with the usage pattern you described, just as long as you keep an eye on the backlight and suspend the Neo during lectures. [1] Estimated using
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Maybe we could setup some kind of map where you could register, so if someone wants to try a FR it would be easier to find someone close? Here it is: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8hl=enmsa=0msid=115352610340426907999.000461ec26b35ac3fad63z=17 I've already entered the daily location of my FR including it's version and distro. Everyone is allowed to view and edit it. Regards thomas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Tschaka wrote: and especially thanks to sarton, who was not only telling me to get this phone or not, but also gave a somewhat realistic opinion on some doubts and things that won't work up to now or for rather unadvanced users. You somehow made me not wanting the FR as my first phone, but as a second phone + testing plattform with which i could have fun, as long as this isn't my only phone in certain circumstances. My pleasure. I think this is the best state of mind for a current freerunner owner as it will be more likely you will contribute and understand the issues rather than feel they are something preventing you from getting on with life :) ... I think it's best to fit the FR in where it's best suited at this point in time rather than trying to make it a replacement for anything. Or even better, make it something unique. It's good to see someone understand the situation and be optimistic. That's what is needed most. In saying that, I do use mine as my daily phone, usually with great success. I'm a lazy, VPNed to the hilt sys admin. If the FR can't manage to take a call while I'm at the cafe I'm not fussed ;) ... it can actually be an awesome excuse ... hehe Sarton ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Tschaka wrote: So, again somebody is asking a question about usabilty. Please don't get me wrong, i actually browsed the mailing lists and wikis, but still there are some unsure things, and i'd like to have a bit more of a summarization. [...] I use the freerunner as may daily (and only) mobile phone. I use the SHR distribution, image dated 16.dec. This is stable, and several important features work well: * call and receive calls, get a log of missed calls. * send and receive sms. (Some problems - you can only send sms to a number, not a contact. But this is being fixed. Also, you can't receive more messages than will fit on the SIM card - there is not yet message storage in the filesystem. My SIM card seems to fill up when it stores 10 messages or so - but no big problem for me. * gps, mostly for openstreetmap. This works really well! * playing music. Some tweaks to a config file, and this part works well too. Things that are cool but not so much used: * Accelerometers. Openmoocow is great for showing off. And I once used gwaterpas to hang a picture straight. * Voice navigation. Works, but I use the maps mostly to find places that aren't mapped yet so I can improve them. Stuff that doesn't work well yet: * Wifi. I can connect at work - and speed is much better than usb networking. But it dies after an hour or so - and don't come back until reboot. It doesn't work at home at all. This may be better with a newer kernel, but newer kernels needs a newer version of the distribution - which hasn't stabilized yet at this moment of writing. Or so it seems. * Suspend. Well, suspend works, and the phone wake up if called. But it doesn't bother waking up to process an incoming sms. And the gps seems to be broken after suspend - so I don't use it. This obviusly cut battery time for me. Newer kernels are expected to be much better, and wakeup on sms will probably happen. (When suspend is needed, reboot in order to make the gps work again.) * Games. Not that important, but can be fun. But most games are kind of laggy, responding too late. Maybe the slow graphichs is to blame, maybe upcoming accelerated xglamo will help. 1st) Battery Power sometimes i'm at university from 9am to 10pm 6 days a week. I'm often browsing mobile news pages with my phone when going to university, or having a chat (XMPP of course!), approx 40 minutes a day. In the meantime i'm listening to music. I got no actual watch, so my phone is my watch, means i often activate the background light to get to know the time. I'm sending like 1-5 messages a day, having a phone call now and then. Now and then i would like to access the web via wifi. This might be a problem. The phone can last a day even without suspend - if it isn't used much. It gets better if you let it suspend. But hours of music will simply use up the battery. :-( It will last a few hours with the gps on too, the gps eats power also. Don't know if the gps itself is power hungry, or if it is the simple fact that it wakes the cpu each second to report location. (And me spending too much time looking at the excellently displayed maps.) So, since i'm not able to plug the phone to a power source at university, would i be able to run it the whole day, without getting out of battery power after 10 hours? The phone works for me because I can charge it everywhere. I have a car charger, most cheap usb car chargers will work. There is a web page with a list if you want to be sure you get a good one. This so I can keep the gps on on long trips. At home and at work I connect the phone to the USB plug on a pc. I hardly every use the supplied wall charger because there is usually some pc available and the cable is easy to carry. If the pc is prepared for it, you get flawless (but somewhat slow) networking through usb too. If the pc aren't prepared at all, then it will still charge the phone. And, will there be a (software) fix (soon) for the issue, that the battery gets uncharged, even if plugged in, as soon as the battery is fully charged? (i got no problem charging the phone every night, but when it's fully charged at 2am, it would have been running 7 hours on battery power by my arrival at university, so the battery would be low sooner) This is only a question of programming - definitely fixeable. 2) Calls As i'm sometimes having a phone call (huh, surprise), i would like to know, if the echo, and especially the buzzing issue will be fixed soon. I read, the echo was fixed in FSO/SHR already, but regarding the buzz i read the mailing list, but there i didnt feel i got a reliable answer(sorry for Echo is fixed in software, the buzz must be fixed with hardware. You may wait for the release of a buzz-free gta02. It will probably not be long, now that they have published a buzz-fix that they can apply in production. Or find some way of having it fixed. An electronics repair shop or
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Sarton O'Brien wrote: There really are some moments I can't help but giggle about ... but that's me and I know I have a wierd sense of humour :) Well, there was that time in October (when I was in Australia for a month on holiday) and I had the FR with FDOM as my only phone. It woke up and rang twice, I answered, no sound. Unrecognised number, could be important so... I called them back, no sound. I rebooted the phone. Wouldn't register GSM for ages. They called back. i hit pick up too many times and the presses registered against the hang-up button when it appeared. This happened again. Then the battery started to go. After about two hours of trying to call them back, I eventually sent a text message to the other party, and it turns out it was a wrong number. D'oh! -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Questions-about-the-usability-of-GTA02-tp2249982p2257735.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Am Sunday 01 February 2009 16:37:11 schrieb Stroller: On 31 Jan 2009, at 22:53, arne anka wrote: The one thing I find absent in every design is a plain old phone keypad. Maybe a slider design to pull it out from underneath or such like. probably not what om likes -- but consider buying an unlocked g1 (android). with the android sources available virtually every distribution available for the fr should run on it, too. I would love to see SHR running on the G1. Me too, since that means FSO would support it :) We are having an eye on the progress of freeing the G1, but I don't think there has been a breakthrough yet. -- :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Very well written, thanks. -- :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
:2009-01-31T23:53:arne anka: The one thing I find absent in every design is a plain old phone keypad. Maybe a slider design to pull it out from underneath or such like. probably not what om likes -- but consider buying an unlocked g1 (android). with the android sources available virtually every distribution available for the fr should run on it, too. Does the g1 sport the same everything as Free hardware as possible? If not that isn't an option for me then. Anyway it's only a wishlist item. My only experience with touchscreen devices was the palm m101. It was actually good if I used the stylus. But if I recall om doesn't have a slot for the stylus(or does it?) which would make it a tad annoying to worry about. -- Andraž ruskie Levstik Source Mage GNU/Linux Games grimoire guru Geek/Hacker/Tinker Be sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth. Quis custodiet ipsos custodies. Ryle hira. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
On 2/1/09 Johny Tenfinger wrote: Moko developers not use freerunner in daily use, they use blackberry I'm not OM developer (hmm, ok, developing is my hobby), but I'm using FreeRunner in daily use... hehe...managers not developers. (Most! of) Our developers use FreeRunners and a second phone. They hate blackberries. :-) -Sean ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
bytestore wrote: Freerunner is my daily phone, my hobby,my freeing, my satisfaction its help me on the work (terminal, gps, gprs) se w300i is my second phone (only phone and photomaker) please everyone who uses the freerunner as a daily phone always mention how e.g with which distribution software etc. i'm happy for everyone who does but i desperatly want to use it as well as a phone... BTW: i use my desktop as a daily desktop !?! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Well, now that my regular phone is on repairs, I've been using my neo as my main phone without major issues (just a little bit of buzz and low volume, but nothing extreme). It is currently running the fixed QtExtended 4.4.2 with the echo patch kindly posted by Chris Samuel (which works wonders by the way - never had any echo complains anymore) I can use it for gprs but so far not for wifi Tom Juergen Schinker escribió: bytestore wrote: Freerunner is my daily phone, my hobby,my freeing, my satisfaction its help me on the work (terminal, gps, gprs) se w300i is my second phone (only phone and photomaker) please everyone who uses the freerunner as a daily phone always mention how e.g with which distribution software etc. i'm happy for everyone who does but i desperatly want to use it as well as a phone... BTW: i use my desktop as a daily desktop !?! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
El día Sunday, February 01, 2009 a las 12:31:47PM +, Juergen Schinker escribió: bytestore wrote: Freerunner is my daily phone, my hobby,my freeing, my satisfaction its help me on the work (terminal, gps, gprs) se w300i is my second phone (only phone and photomaker) please everyone who uses the freerunner as a daily phone always mention how e.g with which distribution software etc. I use my FR with Om2008,9 as my daily (and only) phone; all works well, sometimes a bit of buz, but the rest (GPS, GPRS, Wifi) is just fine; I have to boot every 18h because of the run-away events/0 bug; I own a minty-boost or have the FR attached to my laptop for charging, so the battery is no real issue for me (btw: you will save a lot of energy when you have brightness set to low); i'm happy for everyone who does but i desperatly want to use it as well as a phone... BTW: i use my desktop as a daily desktop !?! me too: I use FreeBSD 7.1-STABLE + KDE3.5.8 as my daily and only desktop; no XP and ni Vista; matthias -- Matthias Apitz Manager Technical Support - OCLC GmbH Gruenwalder Weg 28g - 82041 Oberhaching - Germany t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e matthias.ap...@oclc.org - w http://www.oclc.org/ http://www.UnixArea.de/ b http://gurucubano.blogspot.com/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
On 31 Jan 2009, at 22:53, arne anka wrote: The one thing I find absent in every design is a plain old phone keypad. Maybe a slider design to pull it out from underneath or such like. probably not what om likes -- but consider buying an unlocked g1 (android). with the android sources available virtually every distribution available for the fr should run on it, too. I would love to see SHR running on the G1. ;D Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Freerunner is my daily phone, my hobby,my freeing, my satisfaction its help me on the work (terminal, gps, gprs) se w300i is my second phone (only phone and photomaker) -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Questions-about-the-usability-of-GTA02-tp2249982p2253518.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 13:31, Juergen Schinker ba1...@homie.homelinux.net wrote: please everyone who uses the freerunner as a daily phone always mention how e.g with which distribution software etc. i'm happy for everyone who does but i desperatly want to use it as well as a phone... I'm using SHR unstable, with Zhone installed as fallback gsm ui. And everything works fine :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Mmmm.. please vote you request in this site Freerunner as a daily phone? http://openmoko.spb.ru/viewtopic.php?f=4t=17 Which distribution you use on freerunner? http://openmoko.spb.ru/viewtopic.php?f=4t=16 -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Questions-about-the-usability-of-GTA02-tp2249982p2255273.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
You forgot to put om2008.12 as an distro option, which is the most stable distro I've found. Kosa - Un mundo mejor es posible - bytestore escribió: Mmmm.. please vote you request in this site Freerunner as a daily phone? http://openmoko.spb.ru/viewtopic.php?f=4t=17 Which distribution you use on freerunner? http://openmoko.spb.ru/viewtopic.php?f=4t=16 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 06:11:58AM -0800, Tschaka wrote: So, again somebody is asking a question about usabilty. Please don't get me wrong, i actually browsed the mailing lists and wikis, but still there are some unsure things, and i'd like to have a bit more of a summarization. I'm interested in buying an openmoko Neo Freerunner, Why? What is it that you expect the Neo Freerunner to do that the other handheld devices out there won't? You will have noticed that pretty much all the unhappy users are those expecting the Neo Freerunner to be just another well polished smartphone. If you buy a Neo Freerunner, do it for the right reasons so you avoid disappointment. For example, the reasons _I_ bought a Freerunner instead of one of the competing devices: 1) I can install and use the programs _I_ want, even if nobody else sees the point. Example: For trainspotting, I want a database with freight train timetables and a front end so I can look up train passage times when at a station. 2) A screen big enough to do 1). 480x640 is better than most handhelds. 3) A GNU/Linux environment like on my desktop system, which means I can basicly do the same things on the go as I do at home. 4) Enough RAM to do 1) and 3). Most such devices have less than 128 MB. 5) An external USB port! Combined with 3), the possibilities are nearly endless. Just look at all the USB devices out there, ready to plug in. E.g. even though the Neo doesn't have a built in 3G modem, a USB one can be added. The Freerunner also connects fine to a USB cable modem, just 'ifup eth1' and off you go. 6) Schematics. It brings me the sort of excitement and enthusiasm I experienced back in around 1990 when I bought an Amiga 500 and found the schematics in the back of the manual. I did some hardware upgrades to my Amiga 500 and I'll likely be doing a few to my Freerunner as well. See also: The hardware list. 7) Generally, if there's something I'm not happy with on the Freerunner, I'll have a much better chance of being able to change it to my liking. 8) I will eventually need a replacement for my more than 5 years old Samsung phone. It's not just that the battery has aged noticably, the Samsung also has a number of silly misfeatures such as refusing to adjust speaker volume while in soundless mode, no way to use sound recordings as ringtones and no way of entering '+' in a phone number. See also 7). Neither the Android Dev Phone 1/T-Mobile G1, the iPhone or the Nokia N810 live up to all of the above points. I have not carefully checked if one of the many HTC devices would suit me better. 1st) Battery Power sometimes i'm at university from 9am to 10pm 6 days a week. I'm often browsing mobile news pages with my phone when going to university, or having a chat (XMPP of course!), approx 40 minutes a day. In the meantime i'm listening to music. I got no actual watch, so my phone is my watch, means i often activate the background light to get to know the time. I'm sending like 1-5 messages a day, having a phone call now and then. Now and then i would like to access the web via wifi. So, since i'm not able to plug the phone to a power source at university, would i be able to run it the whole day, without getting out of battery power after 10 hours? The following is with the Debian distribution (with ancient 2.6.24 kernel), xscreensaver not installed and GSM off: Suspended: 20 % battery charge remaining after 3 days. If sitting idle (not suspended) with the screen blanked: 20 hours[1]. But 7 hours drain 38 % of capacity, which gives about 18.5 hours instaed. If sitting idle (not suspended) with full backlight on: 5.5 hours[1]. Playing music[2] using mikmod with the screen blanked: 7.5 hours[1]. Playing music[2] using alsaplayer with the screen blanked: 6 hours[1]. Playing music[2] using alsaplayer with full backlight on: 3.5 hours[1]. Shooting video[3] with full backlight on: Well under 3 hours. ;-) Some distributions automatically suspend after a while, others don't. Some distributions don't unblank the screen while locked, so you can e.g. put it in a pocket while playing music without wasting battery power on backlight. ISTR this works fine in OM2008.9, but it doesn't in Debian. :-( There's a nasty power management bug somewhere which means that if you've had GSM on and turn it off, power consumption increases a lot: https://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/hardware/2009-January/000933.html I suppose it won't affect you when using the Neo as a phone. So in short, I think you should be able to use the Neo for 13 hours on battery power with the usage pattern you described, just as long as you keep an eye on the backlight and suspend the Neo during lectures. [1] Estimated using /sys/devices/platform/bq27000-battery.0/power_supply/bat/time_to_empty_now, which doesn't seem to take into account the increase in battery current as battery voltage decreases. So the
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Rask Ingemann Lambertsen wrote: Why? What is it that you expect the Neo Freerunner to do that the other handheld devices out there won't? You will have noticed that pretty much all the unhappy users are those expecting the Neo Freerunner to be just another well polished smartphone. If you buy a Neo Freerunner, do it for the right reasons so you avoid disappointment. I take issue with that a bit. I'm not the most happy of users but I didn't expect a fully polished smartphone. Some of the reasons you state were important to me, specifically the fully open software stack. That said, I did expect the basics to work in a solid way, and IMHO they still aren't there. No GPRS, GPS, WiFi, bad battery life... those sorts of things I could put up with and did expect. Suspend and wake issues, bad sound and unreliable receiving of calls and text messages were not what I expected. I know there's been a lot of progress, and I know there will be more, but it's still not as useful as my £50 sony ericsson. That said I have a lot of hope about developments in Android and FSO and being able to use it more in the coming couple of months. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Questions-about-the-usability-of-GTA02-tp2249982p2255635.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Gothnet wrote: Rask Ingemann Lambertsen wrote: Why? What is it that you expect the Neo Freerunner to do that the other handheld devices out there won't? You will have noticed that pretty much all the unhappy users are those expecting the Neo Freerunner to be just another well polished smartphone. If you buy a Neo Freerunner, do it for the right reasons so you avoid disappointment. I take issue with that a bit. Maybe it's better stated as The people who expected reliable basic functionality as a phone were disappointed. You can surely obtain it, but just don't expect it. I think the main point was to make sure it meets your extended needs as a mobile device, just not as a phone. The phone part seems to be further down the track for 'out-of-the-box' functionality. I don't think we should dance around the learning curve, especially when someone says they are relatively new to linux. We can all debate the phone capabilities and reliability but in the end, some people are going to have as much success using the freerunner as a phone as they have their desktop with comparable hardware. I think for now, we should make it blatantly obvious that this is first and foremost, at this point in time, a portable linux computer and there is firmware yet to be developed to take full advantage of the freerunner as a reliable phone (TBA). Third party firmware should not be taken into consideration when pitching the device as a phone, that should be something the user explores once OM can completely support their own device. Currently there are very few users, we are all QA/devs/coders/hobbyists. I do become a user now an then between battery removals :) Saying anything less is a little deceptive with regards to sales. Saying anything more can get a little convoluted to the non-technical or linux newbie. Don't get me wrong, I love my freerunner ... I really wish I could pimp it as a phone rather than just exclaiming look! it works! ... when quite often I realise I'm wrong ... after hitting answer 50 times and yelling at it to shutup :) There really are some moments I can't help but giggle about ... but that's me and I know I have a wierd sense of humour :) Sarton ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Sarton, this is a great mail, spot on, thank you very much. Wolfgang On Feb 2, 2009, at 1:27 PM, roguem...@roguewrt.org wrote: Gothnet wrote: Rask Ingemann Lambertsen wrote: Why? What is it that you expect the Neo Freerunner to do that the other handheld devices out there won't? You will have noticed that pretty much all the unhappy users are those expecting the Neo Freerunner to be just another well polished smartphone. If you buy a Neo Freerunner, do it for the right reasons so you avoid disappointment. I take issue with that a bit. Maybe it's better stated as The people who expected reliable basic functionality as a phone were disappointed. You can surely obtain it, but just don't expect it. I think the main point was to make sure it meets your extended needs as a mobile device, just not as a phone. The phone part seems to be further down the track for 'out-of-the-box' functionality. I don't think we should dance around the learning curve, especially when someone says they are relatively new to linux. We can all debate the phone capabilities and reliability but in the end, some people are going to have as much success using the freerunner as a phone as they have their desktop with comparable hardware. I think for now, we should make it blatantly obvious that this is first and foremost, at this point in time, a portable linux computer and there is firmware yet to be developed to take full advantage of the freerunner as a reliable phone (TBA). Third party firmware should not be taken into consideration when pitching the device as a phone, that should be something the user explores once OM can completely support their own device. Currently there are very few users, we are all QA/devs/coders/ hobbyists. I do become a user now an then between battery removals :) Saying anything less is a little deceptive with regards to sales. Saying anything more can get a little convoluted to the non-technical or linux newbie. Don't get me wrong, I love my freerunner ... I really wish I could pimp it as a phone rather than just exclaiming look! it works! ... when quite often I realise I'm wrong ... after hitting answer 50 times and yelling at it to shutup :) There really are some moments I can't help but giggle about ... but that's me and I know I have a wierd sense of humour :) Sarton ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 6:27 AM, roguem...@roguewrt.org wrote: Don't get me wrong, I love my freerunner ... I really wish I could pimp it as a phone rather than just exclaiming look! it works! ... when quite often I realise I'm wrong ... after hitting answer 50 times and yelling at it to shutup :) Sometimes, it even rings at me when someone calls, it may even vibrate, and sometimes I am able to push the 'answer' button and get it to respond immediately, so that I don't press the 'hangup' button that appears in the same spot as the 'answer' button, and then sometimes I even get to hear the person on the other side of the connection, and that person may even hear me, sometimes without echo and buzz. Well, that's what it (sometimes) looks like using the FR. Don't get me wrong, either, I love the platform and am greatly looking forward to it being useable in a wide field of applications. Christ van Willegen -- 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
1st) Battery Power ... So, since i'm not able to plug the phone to a power source at university, would i be able to run it the whole day, without getting out of battery power after 10 hours? not with the scenario you describe -- but otoh: which phone does? your power consumption seems pretty impressive to me and with a phone more suited to doing that stuff (that said, i don't know what phone you are currently using, but assume something more traditional). And, will there be a (software) fix (soon) for the issue, that the battery gets uncharged, even if plugged in, as soon as the battery is fully charged? afaik is the re no way be sw to fix that -- the gsm takes power from battery directly, so whatever your phone gets from usb, the battery would still be drained. the consensus seems currently to be, to startcharging when battery falls below a certain leverl -- but that in turn might trigger a lot of load/unload cycles. don't know, though, how well li-io handles taht on the long run. (maybe at least some little backup power would be nice, so that one could swas the battery when suspenden w/o the need to fully shutdown/reboot). (i got no problem charging the phone every night, but when it's fully charged at 2am, it would have been running 7 hours on battery power by my arrival at university, so the battery would be low sooner) well, there's the emergency power supply by by batteries, several of those contraptions where linked to over time. you have basically a box with regular batteries or rechargeables with an usb pigtail to plug into the fr and charge it. you know the saying: neo owner is man who carries wll charger all the time ... 2) Calls ... on the other end (u know, my gf isn't that patient and insightfull with opensource software(issues) as i am, it took me weeks and shutting down icq completely to convince her to use xmpp :) ) bad planning. you should never have allowed icq in the first place ;-) 3) Software I got no problem with rudimentary software. Most important thing is Sending messages, Having a few Calls, Having GPS apps to improve Openstreetmap and such and browsing the web. I know the software is something being worked on, and apparently it improved a lot already. But: Do such basic features work already (like browsing phone book to make a call) acceptably reliable? I'm patient in handling problems and fiddling around a bit, wanting to have a succes in the end though. so far i can't complain, but, of course, it will depend on the distribution chosen. i use debian/fso and so far my rather limited needs in terms of sms/phone calls are satisfied. gps+tangogps/navit works. And: how sluggish is the software? i often read glamo slows the phone down pretty much. iirc only in terms of graphic performance, not in general. 4) GTA03? Or would u rather advise me to wait for GTA03? I really want to support who knows? there's no realiable timeframe for when gta03 may be available, afair. maybe, when you give some hints to your location, someone owning an fr already might make him/herself available to show the fr in the flesh and demonstrate your scenarios? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Hi Tschaka! On Saturday 31 January 2009 15:11:58 Tschaka wrote: 1st) Battery Power sometimes i'm at university from 9am to 10pm 6 days a week. I'm often browsing mobile news pages with my phone when going to university, or having a chat (XMPP of course!), approx 40 minutes a day. In the meantime i'm listening to music. I got no actual watch, so my phone is my watch, means i often activate the background light to get to know the time. I'm sending like 1-5 messages a day, having a phone call now and then. Now and then i would like to access the web via wifi. So, since i'm not able to plug the phone to a power source at university, would i be able to run it the whole day, without getting out of battery power after 10 hours? And, will there be a (software) fix (soon) for the issue, that the battery gets uncharged, even if plugged in, as soon as the battery is fully charged? (i got no problem charging the phone every night, but when it's fully charged at 2am, it would have been running 7 hours on battery power by my arrival at university, so the battery would be low sooner) One day of usage is no problem here... Sometimes I reach even 2 days. But not very often yet. Overall experience is that battery lasts longer from upgrade to upgrade. I cannot confirm the issue that the battery gets uncharged even if plugged in... 2) Calls As i'm sometimes having a phone call (huh, surprise), i would like to know, if the echo, and especially the buzzing issue will be fixed soon. I read, the echo was fixed in FSO/SHR already, but regarding the buzz i read the mailing list, but there i didnt feel i got a reliable answer(sorry for asking again). i'm not familiar with soldering iron, and i'm not willing to crack up another phone (already did once this way :) ). So, will there a fix of this buzzing soonish by default (a7, a8?) on the base of the often refered capacitor? (as i said, i'm not willing to pay twice, getting a gta03 later due to unfixed buzz problems, or replacing a damaged freerunner). Also, i'm not willing to pay 300€ for a phone that doesnt allow me to have a nice talk with my dad or gf on an at least acceptable level for the person on the other end (u know, my gf isn't that patient and insightfull with opensource software(issues) as i am, it took me weeks and shutting down icq completely to convince her to use xmpp :) ) Not sure when rev A7 will come But I expect it to contain the Buzz fix. Anyways, it looks like openmoko is concerned in applying the Buzz fix to already sold devices too. Not sure if/when this will happen. But signs point to soon. As you are a Student I think it wouldn't be too dificult finding a person at university that could help you applying the buzz fix. Anyways, I'd understand if you find it too risky. The echo is fixed in nearly every distribution meanwhile. As I have applied the Buzz fix on my moko the overall sound quality during phone calls is acceptable. Sometimes the volume is a bit low... But as I've already said: It is acceptable. I have already talked to my parents over one hour without one single complaint about the voice quality. 3) Software I got no problem with rudimentary software. Most important thing is Sending messages, Having a few Calls, Having GPS apps to improve Openstreetmap and such and browsing the web. I know the software is something being worked on, and apparently it improved a lot already. But: Do such basic features work already (like browsing phone book to make a call) acceptably reliable? I'm patient in handling problems and fiddling around a bit, wanting to have a succes in the end though. And: how sluggish is the software? i often read glamo slows the phone down pretty much. Software is nowhere near _finished_. There is software for everything you could immagine, but not really polished yet. Calls are working, but Dialer/AddressBook software is either slow (OM 2008.12) or only uses contacts from SIM card yet (SHR, FSO etc). Lets hope Paroli brings some more light into this area soon. SMS works fine here. With my self-created keyboard layout I can type a SMS using my thumb only in quite short time. IMHO GPS is the one working best. TangoGPS is way cooler as you could immagine. There are also routing engines like navit that allow you to use the FR as a navigation system. I haven't found any finger-friendly Web-browser yet, but there are some stylus- friendly browsers that seem to work. For IM you could use Pidgin. I have no idea how well it works on the FR though. There is also a console based IM client somewhere... Yes, the Glamo really seems to be the bottleneck... There are efforts to eliminate this by the community. Anyways... Overall performance is on the edge of beeing acceptable. Accessing wireless networks seems to be a command-line thing only yet. There are efforts for graphical frontends like MoFi but they do not work really well yet. Anyways, with a well
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
On 31/01/2009 15:49, arne anka wrote: who knows? there's no realiable timeframe for when gta03 may be available, afair. maybe, when you give some hints to your location, someone owning an fr already might make him/herself available to show the fr in the flesh and demonstrate your scenarios? Yes, I think is a very good idea to understand well is something fit our need. Because speaking is easy to have an idea, but only touching something a person can understand if something is really what need. I am in Torino (Italy) and own a FR, so if someone what to try my FR we can meet. Best regards Michele Renda ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
arne anka wrote: 1st) Battery Power ... So, since i'm not able to plug the phone to a power source at university, would i be able to run it the whole day, without getting out of battery power after 10 hours? not with the scenario you describe -- but otoh: which phone does? your power consumption seems pretty impressive to me and with a phone more suited to doing that stuff (that said, i don't know what phone you are currently using, but assume something more traditional). Ya, atm i am using a sony ericsson k800i, so just an ordinary phone. it's handling my needs very well, when it comes down to battery power. i only got to charge the battery every 3 or 4 days. to make things clear: i don't listen to music all day, only on the go, so maximum 2 hours a day. arne anka wrote: And, will there be a (software) fix (soon) for the issue, that the battery gets uncharged, even if plugged in, as soon as the battery is fully charged? afaik is the re no way be sw to fix that -- the gsm takes power from battery directly, so whatever your phone gets from usb, the battery would still be drained. the consensus seems currently to be, to startcharging when battery falls below a certain leverl -- but that in turn might trigger a lot of load/unload cycles. don't know, though, how well li-io handles taht on the long run. (maybe at least some little backup power would be nice, so that one could swas the battery when suspenden w/o the need to fully shutdown/reboot). (i got no problem charging the phone every night, but when it's fully charged at 2am, it would have been running 7 hours on battery power by my arrival at university, so the battery would be low sooner) well, there's the emergency power supply by by batteries, several of those contraptions where linked to over time. you have basically a box with regular batteries or rechargeables with an usb pigtail to plug into the fr and charge it. you know the saying: neo owner is man who carries wll charger all the time ... to sum it up: assuming i'm leaving house at 8.30 am, i would have to plug the phone in at 6.30 am, to have it fully charged by departure? i don't know if this works, and i totally can understand the concerns on many load cycles, but my ordinary phone just stays at 100% as soon as it's fully charged, and when i plug it off it still is at 100% even after 10 hours or something (at least the battery indicator says). could and will this be implemented into later releases? as u may imagine, i'm not willing to get up 1 hour before time, to have my phone fully charged by departure :) (let's not talk about timed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_strip Power strips (?) or something) arne anka wrote: 2) Calls ... on the other end (u know, my gf isn't that patient and insightfull with opensource software(issues) as i am, it took me weeks and shutting down icq completely to convince her to use xmpp :) ) bad planning. you should never have allowed icq in the first place ;-) ya indeed. came on this a bit to late :) arne anka wrote: maybe, when you give some hints to your location, someone owning an fr already might make him/herself available to show the fr in the flesh and demonstrate your scenarios? Good idea, i will! Thanks to you for the fast and nice answers! -- Michael Zanetti wrote: Hi Tschaka! On Saturday 31 January 2009 15:11:58 Tschaka wrote: 1st) Battery Power sometimes i'm at university from 9am to 10pm 6 days a week. I'm often browsing mobile news pages with my phone when going to university, or having a chat (XMPP of course!), approx 40 minutes a day. In the meantime i'm listening to music. I got no actual watch, so my phone is my watch, means i often activate the background light to get to know the time. I'm sending like 1-5 messages a day, having a phone call now and then. Now and then i would like to access the web via wifi. So, since i'm not able to plug the phone to a power source at university, would i be able to run it the whole day, without getting out of battery power after 10 hours? And, will there be a (software) fix (soon) for the issue, that the battery gets uncharged, even if plugged in, as soon as the battery is fully charged? (i got no problem charging the phone every night, but when it's fully charged at 2am, it would have been running 7 hours on battery power by my arrival at university, so the battery would be low sooner) One day of usage is no problem here... Sometimes I reach even 2 days. But not very often yet. Overall experience is that battery lasts longer from upgrade to upgrade. may i ask, how often u use ur freerunner? e.g. listening to music, surfing a bit, having phone calls? is ur usage level below mine, or equal? just to have a bit of a reference... :) Michael Zanetti wrote: Not sure when rev A7 will come But I expect it
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Tschaka, 4) GTA03? Or would u rather advise me to wait for GTA03? No, definitely not. First of all GTA03 is still a long way out, at least 6 months, maybe 9, maybe more. But more importantly, at Openmoko you cannot assume that GTA03 = GTA02 + new hardware features. When Sean started the project, the reason he chose to use 100% FOSS software only is because it gave him full flexibility to make very unique and interesting devices. GTA03 is an independent new product, the continuity to GTA02 is foremost on the software side, hardware continuity only follows because if we have a great fully open driver for a particular chip, we are more likely to use that chip again. The software stack we are building together can be (roughly) described as: Qi + Linux kernel + FSO + Paroli. But for the hardware side, at this point you should not make any assumptions about GTA03 hardware features. They have not been finally decided yet, and in fact may be so different from GTA02 that we will continue to produce and ship GTA02 for a long time, even after GTA03 is released. That's why it's very important for us to continue to improve GTA02, both on the hardware and software side. Since GTA02 shipped about 6 months ago, the software side has taken off in ways we could have never imagined. It must be the world's largest software construction site by now :-) Om2008.12, FSO, SHR, FDOM, Qt Extended, Debian, Gentoo, Android, OpenWrt. Most of these distributions don't really work very well yet, compared to typical polished mass-market products. I think Om2008.12 or QtExtended come closest. But all of the distributions are definitely a lot of fun, and great seeds are being planted that will lead to better software in the future. But shall i, at least, rather wait for a7, or a8 if i want a buzz fix by default? at the moment, this is, besides battery life, the issue that concerns me most. On the hardware side, we went through several revisions - A5, A6, A7 coming up. There will be more, we will continue to improve quality whenever we see an opportunity. This creates a dilemma. The more we improve quality on the hardware side, the more we leave some customers 'behind' with old hardware revisions that cannot be easily upgraded. And our process is totally open. For example if you buy an A6 now, depending on which country you are in, and which network you are typically using, your chances of hearing the buzz are higher than with A7 (which is not shipping yet). Your best bet is to buy from a distributor that has a good return policy. We work with our distributors on finding efficient solutions for the situation we are in, where we come out with improved hardware revisions every few months, and all the defects that are being fixed are openly known and talked about. This creates a lot of work on all sides, but with a little understanding that we are all sitting in the same boat, I'm optimistic we can find a good way through this, with happy customers in the end, even if it's a bit chaotic. The FreeRunner is available and selling in 16 countries, and I'm very happy to see our community active in so many areas. The whole thing really seems to work :-) Thanks everybody, Best Regards, Wolfgang On Jan 31, 2009, at 10:11 PM, Tschaka wrote: So, again somebody is asking a question about usabilty. Please don't get me wrong, i actually browsed the mailing lists and wikis, but still there are some unsure things, and i'd like to have a bit more of a summarization. I'm interested in buying an openmoko Neo Freerunner, but i'd like to get to know some things before i will. I'm a student, so 300 €(even 249 €, Pulster ;) ) is an amount of money i can't spend every month, or w/o any effort. So i don't want to end up getting a Neo now, being unsatisfied and getting a gta03/other brand later this or next year. I'm not that deep into Linux, but i'm running Ubuntu reasonably well, so i'm not totally unfamiliar with linux. i know what svn/git is, and wouldnt be totally unable to build somethings from sources - although it's not an every day task here. So, here's my list of questions, i hope somebody will answer and clear them up a bit :) 1st) Battery Power sometimes i'm at university from 9am to 10pm 6 days a week. I'm often browsing mobile news pages with my phone when going to university, or having a chat (XMPP of course!), approx 40 minutes a day. In the meantime i'm listening to music. I got no actual watch, so my phone is my watch, means i often activate the background light to get to know the time. I'm sending like 1-5 messages a day, having a phone call now and then. Now and then i would like to access the web via wifi. So, since i'm not able to plug the phone to a power source at university, would i be able to run it the whole day, without getting out of battery power after 10 hours? And, will
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
hope in chum openmoko is philosofy, this device not for end user! if you developer or ingeneer you must buy this phone if you want all in one (iphone) buy iphone or blackberry Moko developers not use freerunner in daily use, they use blackberry sorry for my english :( -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Questions-about-the-usability-of-GTA02-tp2249982p2251211.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Moko developers not use freerunner in daily use, they use blackberry I'm not OM developer (hmm, ok, developing is my hobby), but I'm using FreeRunner in daily use... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Ya, atm i am using a sony ericsson k800i, so just an ordinary phone. it's handling my needs very well, when it comes down to battery power. i only got to charge the battery every 3 or 4 days. to make things clear: i don't listen to music all day, only on the go, so maximum 2 hours a day. yes, but the k800i has afaik a dedicated hw codec for music, so it would consume comparably less power for that. and 2h is pretty much time. to sum it up: assuming i'm leaving house at 8.30 am, i would have to plug the phone in at 6.30 am, to have it fully charged by departure? pretty much. i for one load my fr mostly via ub at work and my impression is, though not backed by any formal analysis, that when loading via usb (ie 500mA) the battery lasts longer than with the wallcharger (1000mA). fully charged, and when i plug it off it still is at 100% even after 10 hours or something (at least the battery indicator says). could and will this be implemented into later releases? well, recent kernels (.28 notably) have a reputation to be far more advanced in terms of power saving, so, yes, it is imaginable that the power consumption will improve in a not too far future. but bear in mind that a device like the k800i is designed for a very specific range of use and thus could be made very efficient, powerwise -- any general purpose device suffers from the compromises made. as u may imagine, i'm not willing to get up 1 hour before time, to have my phone fully charged by departure :) well, depends on your schedule, doesn't it? getting up, heading to tha bathroom, having breakfast (or lunch, since you're a student -- though that would rather be in the cafeteria or so) ... pretty much time to charge the fr in the meantime. (let's not talk about timed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_strip Power strips (?) or something) what's wrong with that? you got an alarm clock already, did you? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Moko developers not use freerunner in daily use, they use blackberry well, i certainly doubt that. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Tschaka wrote: Long story short, i don't want to get disappointed buying a neo. I mean, fancy features, software and such is nice to have, but if fundamental things won't work (acceptable), I and many others won't support Openmoko on the long term, means replacing the Neo with a later release of Openmoko in 1,2 or 3 years. Long story short, with the level of analysis you've put into your requirements, I doubt the FR is going to meet them. I use mine as a daily phone, has battery life somewhere in the days but I don't use mine for much when it's not hooked up to usb. If you want a linux development platform that's portable and has phone hardware in it, then the FR is great. Anything outside of that is TBA, if to exist at all. Make sure you buy the FR if you are willing to carry a second phone. You may not need to but from experience, customising an FR can take a while. You don't want to get into a situation where you can only make a phone call when you flash the phone back to some previous distro or find the _other_ micro sd card. Normally I'd say go for it ... but you are obviously concerned and I doubt the FR can meet that level of expectation ... currently. Good luck :) Sarton ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
2009/1/31 arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de: 1st) Battery Power ... So, since i'm not able to plug the phone to a power source at university, would i be able to run it the whole day, without getting out of battery power after 10 hours? not with the scenario you describe -- but otoh: which phone does? your power consumption seems pretty impressive to me and with a phone more suited to doing that stuff (that said, i don't know what phone you are currently using, but assume something more traditional). I'm pretty sure it will. If I do zero calls and messages, but often look at the clock the FR will last 3 workdays (being empty at the third evening). With I use it for some hours a day (wlanm gps, ...) it gets half empty in one day. I think the highest power consumption comes from the screen. APM says it will last 5h with screen at full brightness, and around 12 h with screen disabled. Don't forget that's both without suspending! With wlan enabled this will be somewhat shorter, but it shouldn't be a problem to get more than 2h browsing and 2h music out of it. hendrik ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
Looking at this thread and thinking about buying a phone(frankly am fed up with the one I have atm). I think I'll wait for a GTA03... From reading the wiki[1,2] pages it seems it'll get a lot of new hardware in it and that the requirement for that seems to also be fully Free hardware. Atleast based on the chip scouting part of MokoForesight[2]. Looking at any time frame I'd be willing to wait for a truly fixed up and working GTA03 with a fully Free setup on all possible layers. The one thing I find absent in every design is a plain old phone keypad. Maybe a slider design to pull it out from underneath or such like. That being said I still might buy a GTA02+dev board if I'll have the means. Else I can wait until the team decides that the new device is ready, willing and able to pull off a dumb user usage scenario ;) Thank you for taking the time to read this. [1] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA03 [2] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoForesight -- Andraž ruskie Levstik Source Mage GNU/Linux Games grimoire guru Geek/Hacker/Tinker Be sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth. Quis custodiet ipsos custodies. Ryle hira. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Questions about the usability of GTA02
The one thing I find absent in every design is a plain old phone keypad. Maybe a slider design to pull it out from underneath or such like. probably not what om likes -- but consider buying an unlocked g1 (android). with the android sources available virtually every distribution available for the fr should run on it, too. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
