Re: ``Freerunner reliable and stable''?!
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 11:40:00AM +, Ole Kliemann wrote: Hi to everyone. I already posted my point in an earlier discussion but didn't get much of a reaction. The original post was this[1]. I will shortly reproduce my main point here: Me as well as several others - as I read here on the lists - have bought our FR when it was released somehow expecting it being consumer-ready. It was the general notion that GTA01 was for developers, GTA02 for end-user. I certainly can be blamed for not gathering enough information before buying an FR. But then again if you just look at openmoko.com, you get a lot of fancy design but not one hint that the FR is not ready for everyday use. Instead I read: ``If you plan on using your FreeRunner for everyday use, then we would recommend Qtopia. While it doesn't utilize all the the new hardware features of the phone, it is reliable and stable.'' Which is simply not true. Qtopia of course suffers from the same hardware and kernel issues as just any other distro. So my question to OM is: Why does openmoko.com not explicitly give a warning concerning the current state of maturity of both the hardware and the software? (As it was btw. the case with GTA01. There was a big warning.) Ole [1] http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-October/032531.html Hi, A lot of mistakes were made, but right now we got the only Free Software phone in the market. What OpenMoko needs is our help fixing what we can do, while they concentrate on fixing what only they can fix (like hardware related software which only has NDA-locked documentation). Right now a lot of positive action is needed. If OpenMoko dies the hardware problems will NEVER be fixed, and the Free Software phone fails totally (Google Android is fake Free Software if you don't have phones into which you can exercise your rightful freedoms because they are locked with DRM, as is the HTC G1). Best, Rui -- Or not. Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 7th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3174 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ``Freerunner reliable and stable''?!
El día Sunday, October 26, 2008 a las 11:40:00AM +, Ole Kliemann escribió: Hi to everyone. I already posted my point in an earlier discussion but didn't get much of a reaction. The original post was this[1]. I will shortly reproduce my main point here: Me as well as several others - as I read here on the lists - have bought our FR when it was released somehow expecting it being consumer-ready. It was the general notion that GTA01 was for developers, GTA02 for end-user. I certainly can be blamed for not gathering enough information before buying an FR. But then again if you just look at openmoko.com, you get a lot of fancy design but not one hint that the FR is not ready for everyday use. Instead I read: ``If you plan on using your FreeRunner for everyday use, then we would recommend Qtopia. While it doesn't utilize all the the new hardware features of the phone, it is reliable and stable.'' Which is simply not true. Qtopia of course suffers from the same hardware and kernel issues as just any other distro. So my question to OM is: Why does openmoko.com not explicitly give a warning concerning the current state of maturity of both the hardware and the software? (As it was btw. the case with GTA01. There was a big warning.) Hello, I'm a bit tired of all those (useless) threads like this. I DO USE the FR with Om2008.9 for everyday use, I do not even own any other cellphone. We should improve what we have and stop useless discussions, as well about Google's trick of Android which has nothing todo with free software. Thx matthias -- Matthias Apitz Manager Technical Support - OCLC GmbH Gruenwalder Weg 28g - 82041 Oberhaching - Germany t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e [EMAIL PROTECTED] - w http://www.oclc.org/ http://www.UnixArea.de/ b http://gurucubano.blogspot.com/ A computer is like an air conditioner, it stops working when you open Windows Una computadora es como aire acondicionado, deja de funcionar si abres Windows ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ``Freerunner reliable and stable''?!
Ole Kliemann wrote: Me as well as several others - as I read here on the lists - have bought our FR when it was released somehow expecting it being consumer-ready. It was the general notion that GTA01 was for developers, GTA02 for end-user. Well... It would be too optimistic to expect a consumer-ready device. It was no secret that the software was lacking. But I think it was not unreasonable from the initial messages from OM to expect a device with no critical irrecoverable hardware errors. Which is simply not true. Qtopia of course suffers from the same hardware and kernel issues as just any other distro. Excatly. And I hope 1st. priority from OM is to solve all these basic kernel problems, so (for example) the confusion about GSM/audio noise/echo can end. /Peter ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ``Freerunner reliable and stable''?!
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 10:19:22AM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: Right now a lot of positive action is needed. If OpenMoko dies the hardware problems will NEVER be fixed, and the Free Software phone fails totally (Google Android is fake Free Software if you don't have phones into which you can exercise your rightful freedoms because they are locked with DRM, as is the HTC G1). Full ack. As I wrote in my original post: But honestly, I still love this project. OM after all is providing the first free phone. It is about time that man reclaimed machine. And this is a very important step towards it. Still I think it is a legitimate question to ask why OM on their openmoko.com appearance claim that GTA02 is reliable and stable. Openness means being open about mistakes too. pgpl4cYVe0Pvg.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ``Freerunner reliable and stable''?!
I'm a bit tired of all those (useless) threads like this. I DO USE the FR with Om2008.9 for everyday use, I do not even own any other cellphone. We should improve what we have and stop useless discussions, as well about Google's trick of Android which has nothing todo with free software. I agree. On http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner everyone can read: The FreeRunner can be purchased from the Online Store http://www.openmoko.com as of July 3, 2008. The software available on the phone makes it suitable for power users and developers only -- it is not yet ready for the general consumer. So whining that it is not ready for the regular user is kind of sad. There is a difference between a regular and a power user, and that is not only the letters it takes to write the words. Paul -- If you enjoy your job, you never have to work. http://www.nlpagan.net Running on Mandriva Linux 2008 and Ubuntu 8.04 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ``Freerunner reliable and stable''?!
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 11:44:35AM +0100, Matthias Apitz wrote: Hello, I'm a bit tired of all those (useless) threads like this. I DO USE the FR with Om2008.9 for everyday use, I do not even own any other cellphone. We should improve what we have and stop useless discussions, as well about Google's trick of Android which has nothing todo with free software. Thx matthias Sorry for asking, but have you actually read my post? All these useless discussions arise from the discrepancy between what people expect and what OM delivers to them. A clear warning about GTA02 on openmoko.com and the annouce mail could have saved us a lot of useless discussions. Certainly no use crying over spilt milk now. Just the problem remains. If you are into the community and the wiki and you just look at openmoko.com, you still think you get a usable and reliable phone. Judging just from openmoko.com, which I understand is the official company's website, there is a problem with OM's self-perception. Ole pgpAduSDi8IrO.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ``Freerunner reliable and stable''?!
is it just me or is somebody else also experiencing a weird sensation of dejavu? i hoped this topic to be discussed to death several times. anybody made a statistic how many weeks it takes before it comes up again ... and again ... and again? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ``Freerunner reliable and stable''?!
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 3:08 PM, arne anka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: is it just me or is somebody else also experiencing a weird sensation of dejavu? i hoped this topic to be discussed to death several times. anybody made a statistic how many weeks it takes before it comes up again ... and again ... and again? .. until the text is changed at http://openmoko.com/product-qa.html ? r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ``Freerunner reliable and stable''?!
Sorry to disagree. There was lots of info about how the FR was not ready for prime time available when I bought mine. I think it is pretty clear that this machine is a hackers box that makes phone calls, and that is what I bought. I use the thing for phone calls and it works just fine. Its also a machine that is roughly equivalent to a PC desktop one might have bought in the late 90's, only a lot more portable. Only real drawbacks I find with the FR is the battery life. Aside from that its great. As to OM, they are quite obviously not a highly professional gang with loads of marketing and support resources, and the direction of the project appears to be somewhat vague. That said, I am a happy customer because I can roll my own applications, and eventually fix most of the issues with the machine myself. If I want a professional, thoroughly solid phone with bells and whistles that appeal to a teeny-bopper or business exec, I will get a Nokia. As for the FR, you can run a small business completely off the phone is you want to do so, and carry it in your pocket, complete with customer data and development tools. Try that on your Nokia. Ole Kliemann wrote: On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 11:44:35AM +0100, Matthias Apitz wrote: Hello, I'm a bit tired of all those (useless) threads like this. I DO USE the FR with Om2008.9 for everyday use, I do not even own any other cellphone. We should improve what we have and stop useless discussions, as well about Google's trick of Android which has nothing todo with free software. Thx matthias Sorry for asking, but have you actually read my post? All these useless discussions arise from the discrepancy between what people expect and what OM delivers to them. A clear warning about GTA02 on openmoko.com and the annouce mail could have saved us a lot of useless discussions. Certainly no use crying over spilt milk now. Just the problem remains. If you are into the community and the wiki and you just look at openmoko.com, you still think you get a usable and reliable phone. Judging just from openmoko.com, which I understand is the official company's website, there is a problem with OM's self-perception. Ole ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ``Freerunner reliable and stable''?!
On 10/26/2008 07:12 AM, Paul wrote: I'm a bit tired of all those (useless) threads like this. I DO USE the FR with Om2008.9 for everyday use, I do not even own any other cellphone. We should improve what we have and stop useless discussions, as well about Google's trick of Android which has nothing todo with free software. I agree. On http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner everyone can read: The FreeRunner can be purchased from the Online Store http://www.openmoko.com as of July 3, 2008. The software available on the phone makes it suitable for power users and developers only -- it is not yet ready for the general consumer. So whining that it is not ready for the regular user is kind of sad. There is a difference between a regular and a power user, and that is not only the letters it takes to write the words. Yeah, now we just have to figure out a way to let all those regular users who are under the incorrect assumption that they must be power users because they once downloaded/installed a insert GNU/Linux distro here ISO that they are in fact not power users... (Or, worse yet, someone who has been a Windows sys admin for 10 years...) Unfortunately, those who don't have the experience to decide whether they actually want a FreeRunner without that text are probably most likely to incorrectly assume they must be power users. Mike (who hopes to be a good beginner of a power user in 30 years, but who actually did/does want his FreeRunner) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ``Freerunner reliable and stable''?!
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Iain B. Findleton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry to disagree. There was lots of info about how the FR was not ready for prime time available when I bought mine. I think it is pretty clear Don't get me wrong (I love my FR) but when I bought it (preordered it very soon) it was still marketed as a working phone, not a developper phone. Not only on openmoko.com, but also on openmoko.org. (And yes I informed myself very good, I read almost every mail). that this machine is a hackers box that makes phone calls, and that is what I bought. I use the thing for phone calls and it works just fine. But that is the problem, it still can't make reliable phone calls (echo has been partly fixed, gsm buzzing sound still around and I havent tested the latest image but until recently the calypso chip keeps re-registering). I have tried everything a thousand times, 2007.2, ASU, 2008.8, 2008.9, FDOM, FSO, Qtopia... and never have gotten a working phone a lot of problems like thelimited bus (glamo's fault) were told, but everything you could read said it would be a working phone I vote in favour of editing openmoko.com, at least for now y ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ``Freerunner reliable and stable''?!
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 12:12:42PM +0100, Paul wrote: On http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner everyone can read: The FreeRunner can be purchased from the Online Store http://www.openmoko.com as of July 3, 2008. The software available on the phone makes it suitable for power users and developers only -- it is not yet ready for the general consumer. I was talking about openmoko.com, not openmoko.org. So whining that it is not ready for the regular user is kind of sad. There is a difference between a regular and a power user, and that is not only the letters it takes to write the words. I was not whining at all and specificly not about the FR not being ready for regular users. I was merely pointing out in which way OM did and still does support the notion that the FR would be ready for regular users. It seems to have become a forgotten virtue to actually read a post before replying to it ... Ole pgpz5CbskWFNG.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ``Freerunner reliable and stable''?!
On 26 Oct 2008, at 11:12, Paul wrote: ... On http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner everyone can read: The FreeRunner can be purchased from the Online Store http://www.openmoko.com as of July 3, 2008. The software available on the phone makes it suitable for power users and developers only -- it is not yet ready for the general consumer. So whining that it is not ready for the regular user is kind of sad. ... A new purchaser might not know to read the wiki. Such a notice should also be on the Openmoko.com site, too, particularly pages around the online store. Openmoko have been advised about this on a number of occasions, and I thought they had even agreed to post such a notice. At present it seems quite easy to go to Openmoko.com, click on Products Buy now USA Store Buy now and not see such a notice. Otherwise I do generally agree with you that these threads are unproductive. But the best way to deal with them is to remove all excuses to whine about Freerunner stability - by posting such a notice. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ``Freerunner reliable and stable''?!
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 02:12:18PM +0100, Yorick Moko wrote: On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Iain B. Findleton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry to disagree. There was lots of info about how the FR was not ready for prime time available when I bought mine. I think it is pretty clear Don't get me wrong (I love my FR) I do too. :) but when I bought it (preordered it very soon) it was still marketed as a working phone, not a developper phone. Not only on openmoko.com, but also on openmoko.org. (And yes I informed myself very good, I read almost every mail). Thank you. That's exactly my point. that this machine is a hackers box that makes phone calls, and that is what I bought. I use the thing for phone calls and it works just fine. But that is the problem, it still can't make reliable phone calls (echo has been partly fixed, gsm buzzing sound still around and I havent tested the latest image but until recently the calypso chip keeps re-registering). I have tried everything a thousand times, 2007.2, ASU, 2008.8, 2008.9, FDOM, FSO, Qtopia... and never have gotten a working phone Quite the same for me. a lot of problems like thelimited bus (glamo's fault) were told, but everything you could read said it would be a working phone I vote in favour of editing openmoko.com, at least for now Yes, that's it. Ole pgpY8qKwXW4AU.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ``Freerunner reliable and stable''?!
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 02:22:08PM +, Stroller wrote: So whining that it is not ready for the regular user is kind of sad. ... A new purchaser might not know to read the wiki. Such a notice should also be on the Openmoko.com site, too, particularly pages around the online store. Openmoko have been advised about this on a number of occasions, and I thought they had even agreed to post such a notice. At present it seems quite easy to go to Openmoko.com, click on Products Buy now USA Store Buy now and not see such a notice. Once again: I didn't mean to whine/rant or do anything alike on my post. I just wanted to point out exactly this. I wasn't aware of the fact that they already been advised several times about this. But that only makes my question more legitimate. Why does OM refuse to fully disclose the state of maturity on openmoko.com? Otherwise I do generally agree with you that these threads are unproductive. But the best way to deal with them is to remove all excuses to whine about Freerunner stability - by posting such a notice. See above. Ole pgp7IYf1kQKn5.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ``Freerunner reliable and stable''?!
2008/10/26 Matthias Apitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I'm a bit tired of all those (useless) threads like this. I DO USE the FR with Om2008.9 for everyday use, I do not even own any other cellphone. We should improve what we have and stop useless discussions, as well about Google's trick of Android which has nothing todo with free software. Same here. The stability is sufficient for daily use. It is not as stable as my previous or antepenultimate phones, but those were quite simple, unable to do more than make calls. The only issues I have with the Freerunner are battery life and an occasional (one call per week, roughly) lack of sound. Neither is sufficient to cause me to switch back to my previous phone. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
