Re: Click Feedback?
Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: While JACK is pretty cool, it doesn't cut it on embedded systems since there is no hardware sound accelleration whatsoever. I don't understand what you mean. JACK has nothing whatsoever to do with hardware sound acceleration. On a system like ours, JACK would just introduce latency, as in the end it goes over ALSA as well That would be an extremely negligible latency and it would give us real time dropout less audio on the device, which is pretty crucial on such a thing as a phone. You really want dropouts in the audio when you use your system during a call?. -- Esben Stien is [EMAIL PROTECTED] s a http://www. s tn m irc://irc. b - i . e/%23contact sip:b0ef@ e e jid:b0ef@n n ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
Am Do 12. Juni 2008 schrieb Esben Stien: That would be an extremely negligible latency and it would give us real time dropout less audio on the device, which is pretty crucial on such a thing as a phone. You really want dropouts in the audio when you use your system during a call?. There will be NO dropouts (at least for call audio). The GSM audio path isn't routed through the system, it's direct way [mic - 8753-mixer - GSM] analog only (by default, you may change this). We don't need low latency on a device like this, we need a way to mix concurrent sounds (like alsa dmix is supposed to do) in a way that's not eating up our cpu-resources. Low latency on audio means some 10 milliseconds, and is important for musicians, maybe powergamers, but very much ot for a handheld device. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
Joerg Reisenweber [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There will be NO dropouts (at least for call audio). The GSM audio path isn't routed through the system, it's direct way It will be routed through the system in many use cases. One use case is pre processing the sound from the mic before it goes into the GSM module. Preprocessing is something I always do on my VOIP system. I apply low pass and high pass filter, a compressor and sometimes I add other cool stuff, like changing your voice or add a radio proximity bass effect. we need a way to mix concurrent sounds (like alsa dmix is supposed to do) in a way that's not eating up our cpu-resources. If you want to mix audio into the outgoing signal, the audio source might have drop outs because it's being preempted by other real time threads in the kernel. This will not happen in a JACK context. -- Esben Stien is [EMAIL PROTECTED] s a http://www. s tn m irc://irc. b - i . e/%23contact sip:b0ef@ e e jid:b0ef@n n ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: On Wednesday 11 June 2008 02:39:08 Lorn Potter wrote: Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: Ok, a first summary: *) I still like my tap sound. *) Almost all people do not want the tap sound. *) All people do care about getting event sounds while they're playing something (needs help from a sound daemon or touching every application) *) I was wrong about the real meaning of PA deprecating autounloading. I have discovered module-suspend-on-idle :) Conclusions: *) I will keep PA for the time being and activate module-suspend-on-idle *) You will be able to turn off the tap ;) Thanks for all comments! What about the CPU performance? Not measurable when it's idle. How about when it's active? :) -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
On Wednesday 11 June 2008 02:39:08 Lorn Potter wrote: Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: Ok, a first summary: *) I still like my tap sound. *) Almost all people do not want the tap sound. *) All people do care about getting event sounds while they're playing something (needs help from a sound daemon or touching every application) *) I was wrong about the real meaning of PA deprecating autounloading. I have discovered module-suspend-on-idle :) Conclusions: *) I will keep PA for the time being and activate module-suspend-on-idle *) You will be able to turn off the tap ;) Thanks for all comments! What about the CPU performance? Not measurable when it's idle. :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
On Wednesday 11 June 2008 12:25:11 Lorn Potter wrote: Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: On Wednesday 11 June 2008 02:39:08 Lorn Potter wrote: Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: Ok, a first summary: *) I still like my tap sound. *) Almost all people do not want the tap sound. *) All people do care about getting event sounds while they're playing something (needs help from a sound daemon or touching every application) *) I was wrong about the real meaning of PA deprecating autounloading. I have discovered module-suspend-on-idle :) Conclusions: *) I will keep PA for the time being and activate module-suspend-on-idle *) You will be able to turn off the tap ;) Thanks for all comments! What about the CPU performance? Not measurable when it's idle. How about when it's active? :) Then it claims about between 10% and 20% of CPU time, which seems a lot, but according to dmix measurements I did years ago, it's still less than dmix. Plus, with PA we get better latency. :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: Conclusions: *) I will keep PA for the time being and activate module-suspend-on-idle *) You will be able to turn off the tap ;) Sounds great. -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If we were to get rid of it, we could ditch pulseaudio and go directly to alsa. You know you should go JACK right?. Going directly to alsa for such a real time application is just bad, very bad. -- Esben Stien is [EMAIL PROTECTED] s a http://www. s tn m irc://irc. b - i . e/%23contact sip:b0ef@ e e jid:b0ef@n n ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
On Wednesday 11 June 2008 19:08:48 Esben Stien wrote: Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If we were to get rid of it, we could ditch pulseaudio and go directly to alsa. You know you should go JACK right?. Going directly to alsa for such a real time application is just bad, very bad. While JACK is pretty cool, it doesn't cut it on embedded systems since there is no hardware sound accelleration whatsoever. On a system like ours, JACK would just introduce latency, as in the end it goes over ALSA as well :M:. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
Will this mean I wont be able to hear an SMS arrive in background while I listen to music? Rahul J On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:43 PM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi guys, we have been shipping pulseaudio (which is quite a CPU hog on embedded systems) on our rootfs for quite a while now. The main reason not to use alsa directly was because of mixing, since alsa dmix absolutely does not cut it. However just recently I ponder whether I should remove pulseaudio for the time being. I have been mainly using it to create a click sound (touch feedback), since ring tone et. al playback goes over gstreamer anyways. So... how important is that click sound to you? Would you miss it? Personally, I love it, since the device kind of vibrates (because it's low enough) hence I immediately know that the touch has been recognized, even if the UI takes a bit. However, I know lot of other people hate it. If we were to get rid of it, we could ditch pulseaudio and go directly to alsa. This means no longer being able to mix sounds, but rather stick them into a queue and play them sequentially. Opinions? :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 3:13 PM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi guys, we have been shipping pulseaudio (which is quite a CPU hog on embedded systems) on our rootfs for quite a while now. The main reason not to use alsa directly was because of mixing, since alsa dmix absolutely does not cut it. However just recently I ponder whether I should remove pulseaudio for the time being. I have been mainly using it to create a click sound (touch feedback), since ring tone et. al playback goes over gstreamer anyways. So... how important is that click sound to you? Would you miss it? Personally, I love it, since the device kind of vibrates (because it's low enough) hence I immediately know that the touch has been recognized, even if the UI takes a bit. However, I know lot of other people hate it. If we were to get rid of it, we could ditch pulseaudio and go directly to alsa. This means no longer being able to mix sounds, but rather stick them into a queue and play them sequentially. Opinions? Write a light weight sound muxing daemon? :) Wouldn't it be possible to get the device to actually vibrate when you touch something, since it does have a vibrator and all? Cheers, Federico ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
hi Mickey, click sound is normally the first thing I deactivate when I get a new phone that uses this. thanks for asking BTW. have fun k. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
Opinions? my 2c: i hate those accoustic feedbacks. isn't it possible to use the vibration for that kind of feedback, if somebody likes it? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
Hi, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer schrieb: we have been shipping pulseaudio (which is quite a CPU hog on embedded systems) on our rootfs for quite a while now. The main reason not to use alsa directly was because of mixing, since alsa dmix absolutely does not cut it. However just recently I ponder whether I should remove pulseaudio for the time [..] If we were to get rid of it, we could ditch pulseaudio and go directly to alsa. This means no longer being able to mix sounds, but rather stick them into a queue and play them sequentially. Opinions? I get the impression that it is not well understood what pulseaudio can provide. PA is not YASS (= yet another sound server) that tries to fix the evil 'no hw mixing available' problem. Instead it provides flexible handling of sound sources at a very low level (lower than gstreamer I mean). Please take a current GNU/Linux distro that ships and configures pulseaudio in a useful way (I only know Fedora 9 and Ubuntu Hardy) and do the following experiment: - start a song in your favorite media player (make sure it plays via PA) - hear the music on the analog speakers that are usually connected to your box - plug in a USB headset - surprise: the music will be played on them, too - unplug the headset - surprise 2: music app does not crash instead music can still be heard through the analog speakers again I have no idea how that would work with bluetooth sound devices but if they appear as an additional ALSA device that is managed by PA it work like with the USB case above. Regarding CPU hogging: Lennart, PA's main developer, recently[0] wrote about rewriting parts of PA to fix it. In short: Especially the power-saving features of glitch-free PA should be enough reason for the embedded Linux people to adopt it quickly. So if anyone on this list has no idea what to do with her/his free time. Go hack on PA. :) Regards Robert [0] - http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/pulse-glitch-free.html signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
As long as visual feedback is adequate, I don't see why not. Michael 'Mickey' Lauer pravi: Hi guys, we have been shipping pulseaudio (which is quite a CPU hog on embedded systems) on our rootfs for quite a while now. The main reason not to use alsa directly was because of mixing, since alsa dmix absolutely does not cut it. However just recently I ponder whether I should remove pulseaudio for the time being. I have been mainly using it to create a click sound (touch feedback), since ring tone et. al playback goes over gstreamer anyways. So... how important is that click sound to you? Would you miss it? Personally, I love it, since the device kind of vibrates (because it's low enough) hence I immediately know that the touch has been recognized, even if the UI takes a bit. However, I know lot of other people hate it. If we were to get rid of it, we could ditch pulseaudio and go directly to alsa. This means no longer being able to mix sounds, but rather stick them into a queue and play them sequentially. Opinions? :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
On 10 Jun 2008, at 14:13, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: ... we have been shipping pulseaudio (which is quite a CPU hog on embedded systems) on our rootfs for quite a while now. The main reason not to use alsa directly was because of mixing, since alsa dmix absolutely does not cut it. ... If we were to get rid of it, we could ditch pulseaudio and go directly to alsa. This means no longer being able to mix sounds, but rather stick them into a queue and play them sequentially. Hi Mickey, In reading this I'm struck by the last paragraph, and not the click feedback example you give. Someone else has already mentioned SMS notification whilst listening to music, but also my GPS concept is affected. If a driver is approaching an accident blackspot he cannot afford for notification of that to be queued to play after some other application is finished. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
This means no longer being able to mix sounds, but rather stick them into a queue and play them sequentially. Someone else has already mentioned SMS notification whilst listening to music, but also my GPS concept is affected. If a driver is approaching an accident blackspot he cannot afford for notification of that to be queued to play after some other application is finished. I think the current app that is using alsa would be stopped then the notifcation sound will play, they just mean (IMHO) that no two sounds can play at the same time. +1 for not having feeedback click if it can streamline the software, Mickey ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
so do I, but not on mine gta01... please remember that this is touch only phone and these feedback sounds are a must here... Piotr Alexander Köb pisze: hi Mickey, click sound is normally the first thing I deactivate when I get a new phone that uses this. thanks for asking BTW. have fun k. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
On Tuesday 10 June 2008 19:29:26 Asheesh Laroia wrote: On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: Hi guys, we have been shipping pulseaudio (which is quite a CPU hog on embedded systems) on our rootfs for quite a while now. The main reason not to use alsa directly was because of mixing, since alsa dmix absolutely does not cut it. Is it a CPU hog even when the sounds are all the same frequency and no resampling has to be done? Yes, it is. It appears to be happily mixing and resampling zero's, if idle. And automatic module unloading on idle just got deprecated... :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
Ok, a first summary: *) I still like my tap sound. *) Almost all people do not want the tap sound. *) All people do care about getting event sounds while they're playing something (needs help from a sound daemon or touching every application) *) I was wrong about the real meaning of PA deprecating autounloading. I have discovered module-suspend-on-idle :) Conclusions: *) I will keep PA for the time being and activate module-suspend-on-idle *) You will be able to turn off the tap ;) Thanks for all comments! Mickey. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: Ok, a first summary: *) I still like my tap sound. *) Almost all people do not want the tap sound. *) All people do care about getting event sounds while they're playing something (needs help from a sound daemon or touching every application) *) I was wrong about the real meaning of PA deprecating autounloading. I have discovered module-suspend-on-idle :) Conclusions: *) I will keep PA for the time being and activate module-suspend-on-idle *) You will be able to turn off the tap ;) Thanks for all comments! What about the CPU performance? -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
