Re: Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For instance: Proposed wiki page: How to respond to list email: 1. Never remove any re: in the message subject. Some (not all) email clients use this to identify the thread. 2. If your email client adds the original poster and other addressees to the Cc: field, remove them. You should always respond only to the list. This will not work. Defaults will prevail. Everyone will do at least few replies with these ugly CCs before (s)he will get idea that something is wrong.Already tested on my own ass - got some of these double-messages just now. Real fix: set up mailing list to put its own address (community@lists.openmoko.org) into into Reply-to: header and instruct people to hit Reply (not Reply all).I hope google cares about this header as well? These CCs are possible even with regular mail client, too. With default state of things I have to remove original sender manually and insert mailing list into To: field instead. In no way I want to mail to original sender directly when using mailing list. P.S. I'm stopping replying to this google story thread. It isn't interesting - flame mode off. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
Salve! Excuse me, I myself was writing once here on this list about respect and to give everybody a warm welcome. The best solution for mailinglist formal things would be personal mails with explaination... Robert Michel schrieb am Dienstag, den 13. Februar 2007 um 13:57h: The gmailers here on the list are also _rowdily_ by not using an emailclient with supporting working References :(( I don't mean every gmail user - I just wanted to express that using gmail could become or already is a negative business cardm personal reference like using hotmail or aol mailaccount. I know that there are good reasons to use a separate freemailer account for a mailinglist, especialy when you don't have a own mailserver... My comment was a little to fast written, my intention was to motivate others - maybe you, with the knowledge how to use gmail in a good way to explainig it to people here on this list doesn't having this knowledge or caring about threads. Hope this apology helps to motivate people to let this mailinglist running with respect, but also with efficiency due working threads. So how can write a short explaination for gmail users in the wiki? Greetings, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
I just read the other email which started this discussion about gmail and think I understand the problem. The problem is with the list. I am on 15 tech mailing lists, and this is the only one which, if I in gmail say reply to replys to the sender and not to the list. I NEVER*** want to reply to the individual when responding to a post on the list. If I say reply to all it puts the senders address in the to field and the openmoko address in the cc field. I strongly suspect this is the cause of unwanted cc's. Again, out of 15 lists, this only happens for me on the openmoko list. Now I have read that some consider this a feature. And perhaps there are benefits I don't understand. but with 25-50% of the tech mailing list readers using gmail, having a list feature that causes this kind of a problem should probably be reconsidered. I do not believe this is something that can be worked around in gmail other than by manually fixing every send to this list (which I do). I would ask the openmoko team to consider fixing the mailing list parameters in order to fix this problem. Regards, Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
Salve hank! Thank you for your feedback ;) On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, hank williams wrote: You are misinformed if you believe that gmail does not handle threads properly. Maybe, it would be nice when other gmail users explain gmail users how to use gmail proper, instead of that I have to inform myself about gmail. In fact I think it is the best product on the market, free or otherwise, for handling threads. The problem which you are referring to has nothing to do with gmail, but with the fact that some people mistakenly delete the re: from the mail header when responding. This is only a backup for threading mails - threading by subjects. The better way is threading with working References in the header. Q: Is gmail killing this reference line in the header when the Subject does not begin with re:? Realy? Can you test this? BTW, it seems that e.g. Ryan is using Apple Mail as MUA. (Mail user agent = email client) AFAIK Apple mail can set References in the header. So the question stil is, what make the References missing for Ryan by using gmail. Greetings, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
On 2/13/07, Robert Michel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Salve hank! Thank you for your feedback ;) On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, hank williams wrote: You are misinformed if you believe that gmail does not handle threads properly. Maybe, it would be nice when other gmail users explain gmail users how to use gmail proper, instead of that I have to inform myself about gmail. That would assume there is some improper way that people are handling gmail. I disagree. In fact I think it is the best product on the market, free or otherwise, for handling threads. The problem which you are referring to has nothing to do with gmail, but with the fact that some people mistakenly delete the re: from the mail header when responding. This is only a backup for threading mails - threading by subjects. The better way is threading with working References in the header. hmm... guess those Google guys aren't smart enough to handle mail the better way. With your way, even if you change the subject it would be part of the same thread. That would make for a really easy time finding emails where you *meant* to change the subject and create a new thread. Q: Is gmail killing this reference line in the header when the Subject does not begin with re:? Realy? Can you test this? BTW, it seems that e.g. Ryan is using Apple Mail as MUA. (Mail user agent = email client) AFAIK Apple mail can set References in the header. So the question stil is, what make the References missing for Ryan by using gmail. Ahh... this is interesting - apple mail + gmail = problem I have no idea since I use the web client. Regards, Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: This explains the CC'ing but what's about the missing references? Re: Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
On 2/13/07, Robert Michel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Salve hank! This explains the CC'ing. On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, hank williams wrote: I just read the other email which started this discussion about gmail and think I understand the problem. The problem is with the list. I am on 15 tech mailing lists, and this is the only one which, if I in gmail say reply to replys to the sender and not to the list. I NEVER*** want to reply to the individual when responding to a post on the list. Never say never - I would not call it the problem is with the list I would call the problem is with the user not looking who they are sending an email. If you want the default behavior to be one that encourages the least likely intended result then you are right. In fact, perhaps the default should always be to send the email to George Bush, and then you can just change it to who you really intend! But seriously, the point is that default behavior matters. It should default to the most commonly needed situation, not an edge condition. This is the way *all* my other 14 mailing lists work. Back to the brocken threads - this is not explaining why some gmail users hasn't a proper emailheader with working Reference. Does you have an idea for this as well? As I said in the other thread, I cant speak to what might go wrong with some incorrect setting in apple mail combined with gmail. Regards, Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
Thanks Richard. I have read this before, but forgot the official name of reply-to munging. I think your analysis is correct. The only thing I would say is that the non-standards compliant way of handling list administration is in fact, as far as I can tell, the standard way that at least the many high volume lists that I am on behave. Its kind of like being with a woman. You have to decide whether you would rather be happy, or be right. They are mutually exclusive! Regards, Hank On 2/13/07, Richard Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 13 February 2007 15:28, hank williams wrote: Again, out of 15 lists, this only happens for me on the openmoko list. Now I have read that some consider this a feature. And perhaps there are benefits I don't understand. but with 25-50% of the tech mailing list readers using gmail, having a list feature that causes this kind of a problem should probably be reconsidered. I do not believe this is something that can be worked around in gmail other than by manually fixing every send to this list (which I do). I would ask the openmoko team to consider fixing the mailing list parameters in order to fix this problem. Hi, It's called 'reply-to munging', and it is as contentious as 'gnu-linux or linux', 'Allow proprietary binaries or only OS code', and many other things. Here's the details: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html Basically all good email clients support mailinglists that abide by the protocols, with notable exception of Outlook and Gmail. So many list managers allow 'reply-to munging' to make life easier on those users, while all other users have to cope with the broken protocol as best they can, which they usually do pretty well. Sourceforge mailinglists especially push admins not to allow reply-to munging, to encourage to email software to support the protocol correctly, but I have seen many a sourceforge list dwindle to a trickle, because replies were not arriving at the list anymore, only to the original poster. It is difficult to promote working to standards, and then setup your email list in an non standard fashion, but in the same way we support MP3 as well as OGG, it might be better to be pragmatic about this issue, and allow reply-to munging, in the spirit of making the list as accessible and enjoyable to all its users, and to restrict arguments to important topics, not petty list issues. Cheers, Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Richard Bennett wrote: On Tuesday 13 February 2007 15:28, hank williams wrote: Again, out of 15 lists, this only happens for me on the openmoko list. Now I have read that some consider this a feature. And perhaps there are benefits I don't understand. but with 25-50% of the tech mailing list readers using gmail, having a list feature that causes this kind of a problem should probably be reconsidered. I do not believe this is something that can be worked around in gmail other than by manually fixing every send to this list (which I do). I would ask the openmoko team to consider fixing the mailing list parameters in order to fix this problem. Hi, It's called 'reply-to munging', and it is as contentious as 'gnu-linux or linux', 'Allow proprietary binaries or only OS code', and many other things. Here's the details: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html Basically all good email clients support mailinglists that abide by the protocols, with notable exception of Outlook and Gmail. So many list managers allow 'reply-to munging' to make life easier on those users, while all other users have to cope with the broken protocol as best they can, which they usually do pretty well. Sourceforge mailinglists especially push admins not to allow reply-to munging, to encourage to email software to support the protocol correctly, but I have seen many a sourceforge list dwindle to a trickle, because replies were not arriving at the list anymore, only to the original poster. It is difficult to promote working to standards, and then setup your email list in an non standard fashion, but in the same way we support MP3 as well as OGG, it might be better to be pragmatic about this issue, and allow reply-to munging, in the spirit of making the list as accessible and enjoyable to all its users, and to restrict arguments to important topics, not petty list issues. Thanks for explaining this, Richard. I had a vague understanding of this problem but not to the level of details you provide. Now I think I understand. I have been guilty (sometimes) of removing the re: to reduce the length of a long subject line. I won't do this any more. When replying, I too try to remember to remove all the individual cc and leave just the mailing list, but sometimes I forget... (My email client is pine. It's all about choice, right? :-) Can we agreen on a small list of guidelines that we could put on the wiki? At least then when the problem comes up we can point at the wiki and hopefully resolve the issue more rapidly (not that this always works). Or is simply coming up with the guidelines too contentious? For instance: Proposed wiki page: How to respond to list email: 1. Never remove any re: in the message subject. Some (not all) email clients use this to identify the thread. 2. If your email client adds the original poster and other addressees to the Cc: field, remove them. You should always respond only to the list. 3. To start a new subject, always compose a new message. Responding to a message, even if you change the subject field, will leave a reference to a previous thread. Others? Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
On Tue, 2007-02-13 at 12:00 -0500, hank williams wrote: On 2/13/07, Reid Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2007-02-13 at 10:02 -0500, hank williams wrote: hmm... guess those Google guys aren't smart enough to handle mail the better way. With your way, even if you change the subject it would be part of the same thread. I believe that is proper -- to remain part of the same thread. To create a new thread, start with a new email -- do not reply to a current thread with an altered subject. Well, it depends on how you define proper. Again, to me this is about user interface, and what is expected behavior. I dont think your average (non-programmer) would think that a new message with a a new message no, which is what I said to do if you want to create a new thread -- but the conversation was about replying to a previous message and changing the subject expecting it to start a new thread -- which does not work. different subject would be in the same thread. My gmail account does this, so anyone using gmail should expect it after seeing it occur -- see below. Replies to emails with changed subject show in the same thread/conversation, not new or separate ones. More importantly, the interface revolution in gmail is the grouping of threads by subject. Not based on what I just did ( subject threading may be a fallback mechanism as mentioned earlier -- evolution has this 'option' also). This is one of the reasons that so many people love gmail. It makes what used to be a much more complicated thing much easier to follow. I think people are voting with their email accounts and by this measure people in mailing lists *love* the gmail design. The high percentage of gmail use vs aol or hotmail or outlook or whatever is no coincidence. Regards, Hank In my gmail account: create a message with subject Test Thread - body Test Thread. Send it. Reply to it from gmail account, Change the subject to Test Thread Two - body to test thread Two, Send it. Reply to Test Thread Two, Change subject to Test Thread three - body to Test Thread 3, Send it. View Test Thread Three,,, see that Google 'threaded' all three messages as one thread/conversation, not three separate ones. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
Reid, Your test doesnt work when you are looking at messages that you yourself sent. Messages you send from a given thread are always in the same thread, but messages from someone else from the same thread with a different subject are not put in the same thread, and that is the problem on the list. Regards, Hank On 2/13/07, Reid Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2007-02-13 at 12:00 -0500, hank williams wrote: On 2/13/07, Reid Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2007-02-13 at 10:02 -0500, hank williams wrote: hmm... guess those Google guys aren't smart enough to handle mail the better way. With your way, even if you change the subject it would be part of the same thread. I believe that is proper -- to remain part of the same thread. To create a new thread, start with a new email -- do not reply to a current thread with an altered subject. Well, it depends on how you define proper. Again, to me this is about user interface, and what is expected behavior. I dont think your average (non-programmer) would think that a new message with a a new message no, which is what I said to do if you want to create a new thread -- but the conversation was about replying to a previous message and changing the subject expecting it to start a new thread -- which does not work. different subject would be in the same thread. My gmail account does this, so anyone using gmail should expect it after seeing it occur -- see below. Replies to emails with changed subject show in the same thread/conversation, not new or separate ones. More importantly, the interface revolution in gmail is the grouping of threads by subject. Not based on what I just did ( subject threading may be a fallback mechanism as mentioned earlier -- evolution has this 'option' also). This is one of the reasons that so many people love gmail. It makes what used to be a much more complicated thing much easier to follow. I think people are voting with their email accounts and by this measure people in mailing lists *love* the gmail design. The high percentage of gmail use vs aol or hotmail or outlook or whatever is no coincidence. Regards, Hank In my gmail account: create a message with subject Test Thread - body Test Thread. Send it. Reply to it from gmail account, Change the subject to Test Thread Two - body to test thread Two, Send it. Reply to Test Thread Two, Change subject to Test Thread three - body to Test Thread 3, Send it. View Test Thread Three,,, see that Google 'threaded' all three messages as one thread/conversation, not three separate ones. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
