Re: Special Letters?
Sounds great that it will be possible to create better support for Danish and other non-english languages. Does anyone know when the SVN build might become stabile? But there is no way at the moment du fix this issue? Den 20/07/2008 kl. 17.59 skrev Michele Renda: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: in the end i imagine people might do custom layouts for a language (eg german would only have ä, ö, ü and ß). romainian some other set, danish another set. I think i can help we collect a series of layout to ship with Freerunner. If we collect a person for every country we can provide a full set of keyboard layout (we can see the key are available in our keyboard). They are text file so them will not take too much space. We need something to easily swith from a layout to the other (if it doesn't exist yet). Regards Michele Sounds like a great idea Michele and if made correctly it wouldn´t be that difficult to implant in the SVN build that Carsten Haitzler is talking about. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiDYOUACgkQSIAU/I6SkT1AcwCfZqoDOohHCzChP8Pxr0XU0gA8 kGIAn3R9F2oDJLZXJXQEJ7ZC9SdZOEfg =uDgl -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Venlig Hilsen/Kind Regards Ole Holm Frandsen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Special Letters?
On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:18:37 +0200 Ole Holm Frandsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Sounds great that it will be possible to create better support for Danish and other non-english languages. Does anyone know when the SVN build might become stabile? But there is no way at the moment du fix this issue? right now as of svn rev 151 of illume - the keyboard is fully functional, and the internal illume one is enabled by default (no choice right now to turn it off - will add that), and it ships with 3 layouts by default with a layout selector. i changed the .kbd text format a little, but you can see examples of inlt chars in the Numbers.kbd (i included a few). someone can make an Intl.kbd with all the usual european accent chars in it and maybe russian and greek and other .kbd files. have at it. maybe you want qwertz not qwerty? dunno. you guys decide! i'm just trying to make it easy for you so that policy isnt locked in code, and you just have config files or other config parameters you can twiddle with to get what you want. it's not perfect, but it's not too shabby. again - sorry for RtoL speakers. not supported (and RtoL languages are painful to support especially for display in mixed LtoR and RtoL text). will one day get to it. nb - for asian languages (traditional or simplified chinese by zuhin or pinyin, you will need ALSO an input method handler like uim, scim, kinput etc. etc.). maybe it makes sense eventually fo the keyboard to also include input method integration so the buffer when doing dictionary-lookup and correction displays the input method compose buffer... but i'm going to worry about that after simpler european langauges are done. (probably before RtoL though). Den 20/07/2008 kl. 17.59 skrev Michele Renda: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: in the end i imagine people might do custom layouts for a language (eg german would only have ä, ö, ü and ß). romainian some other set, danish another set. I think i can help we collect a series of layout to ship with Freerunner. If we collect a person for every country we can provide a full set of keyboard layout (we can see the key are available in our keyboard). They are text file so them will not take too much space. We need something to easily swith from a layout to the other (if it doesn't exist yet). Regards Michele Sounds like a great idea Michele and if made correctly it wouldn´t be that difficult to implant in the SVN build that Carsten Haitzler is talking about. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiDYOUACgkQSIAU/I6SkT1AcwCfZqoDOohHCzChP8Pxr0XU0gA8 kGIAn3R9F2oDJLZXJXQEJ7ZC9SdZOEfg =uDgl -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Venlig Hilsen/Kind Regards Ole Holm Frandsen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Special Letters?
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 04:40:11 +1000 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:18:37 +0200 Ole Holm Frandsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Sounds great that it will be possible to create better support for Danish and other non-english languages. Does anyone know when the SVN build might become stabile? But there is no way at the moment du fix this issue? [...] nb - for asian languages (traditional or simplified chinese by zuhin or pinyin, you will need ALSO an input method handler like uim, scim, kinput etc. etc.). [...] This sounds great. What is the level of OpenType support? Are complex text layout (CTL) languages like Indian languages, and Thai supported? Is this true of just the FreeRunner, or also of the Neo 1973? Input methods can be handled. Even xkb can be coerced into providing basic support for most non-English languages. Regards, Gora ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Special Letters?
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 00:48:43 +0530 Gora Mohanty [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 04:40:11 +1000 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:18:37 +0200 Ole Holm Frandsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Sounds great that it will be possible to create better support for Danish and other non-english languages. Does anyone know when the SVN build might become stabile? But there is no way at the moment du fix this issue? [...] nb - for asian languages (traditional or simplified chinese by zuhin or pinyin, you will need ALSO an input method handler like uim, scim, kinput etc. etc.). [...] This sounds great. What is the level of OpenType support? Are complex text layout (CTL) languages like Indian languages, and Thai supported? Is this true of just the FreeRunner, or also of the Neo 1973? i cant speak for gtk and qt - for EFL, it uses freetype and fontconfig (optional). it treats text as a string going from left to right with chars that advance to the right. the amount they advance is based on the advance of the character drawn and any kerning adjustments (it supports kerning) beyond that, nothing else is done. if this covers thai and indian scripts... i don't know. i dont speak read or write any. for languages i do know (that is east-asian - japanese, chinese (and i know by experience korean ie hangul) and all regular left-to-right languages (latin-based european ones, greek, cyrillic(russian) etc.) work just fine. Input methods can be handled. Even xkb can be coerced into providing basic support for most non-English languages. Regards, Gora ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Special Letters?
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:31:48 +1000 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 00:48:43 +0530 Gora Mohanty [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: [...] This sounds great. What is the level of OpenType support? Are complex text layout (CTL) languages like Indian languages, and Thai supported? Is this true of just the FreeRunner, or also of the Neo 1973? i cant speak for gtk and qt - for EFL, it uses freetype and fontconfig (optional). it treats text as a string going from left to right with chars that advance to the right. [...] Ah, in that case it probably will not work for CTL languages, as they need various operations like glyph reordering, substitution, etc. On normal computers, GTK uses Pango to handle such scripts, but my guess is that Pango will be too heavy for the current hardware. I will have to try all this out once I get my (currently broken) Moko reflashed. Regards, Gora ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Special Letters?
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:23:44 +0530 Gora Mohanty [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:31:48 +1000 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 00:48:43 +0530 Gora Mohanty [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: [...] This sounds great. What is the level of OpenType support? Are complex text layout (CTL) languages like Indian languages, and Thai supported? Is this true of just the FreeRunner, or also of the Neo 1973? i cant speak for gtk and qt - for EFL, it uses freetype and fontconfig (optional). it treats text as a string going from left to right with chars that advance to the right. [...] Ah, in that case it probably will not work for CTL languages, as they need various operations like glyph reordering, substitution, etc. On normal computers, GTK uses Pango to handle such scripts, but my guess is that Pango will be too heavy for the current hardware. I will have to try all this out once I get my (currently broken) Moko reflashed. this is why EFL doesn't have support. i'd have to write it all, OR use pango... and pango, last i looked, was not light on overhead, so as a matter of performance doing it the simple way its done now handles things for most people (who buy/use devices or linux systems as most people tend to speak a left-to-right friendly language). i have seen remarkably little interest in things like left-to-right languages over the years, and as there isn't a lot of demand and i don't actually speak any of these (i just speak european languages - a few of them, and east-asian languages), i just have never had it come up high enough on the list of things to do.. to ever do it. at least all the text internals are utf8 so... it's possible to do this without breakages... -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Special Letters?
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 06:01:24 +1000 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] this is why EFL doesn't have support. i'd have to write it all, OR use pango... and pango, last i looked, was not light on overhead, Agreed there. Have not actually benchmarked Pango myself, but by all accounts it is resource-hungry, though that is probably not inappropriate for a library aiming to handle all of Unicode. so as a matter of performance doing it the simple way its done now handles things for most people (who buy/use devices or linux systems as most people tend to speak a left-to-right friendly language). i have seen remarkably little interest in things like left-to-right languages over the years, and as there isn't a lot of demand and i don't actually speak any of these (i just speak european languages - a few of them, and east-asian languages), i just have never had it come up high enough on the list of things to do.. to ever do it. at least all the text internals are utf8 so... it's possible to do this without breakages... I would disagree here, though I can quite see why you might not want to take this up. Having OpenMoko hardware handle Indic text would be a big plus for its adoption here in India. An ability to send SMS in local languages would be even more of a plus, though that will also have to contend with service provider gateways that have no clue about UTF-8 or Unicode. Given the current hardware limitations, the best approach for Indic languages is probably to make a special font that includes all possible glyph combinations, and a light-weight, custom rendering engine that works with the font. This would also have the benefit of allowing the rendering of Indic content on text-based terminals, such as the Linux console. This is not really *that* hard a task, and from what I hear various phone companies are sniffing around in India for someone able to put this together. Regards, Gora ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Special Letters?
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:51:09 +0530 Gora Mohanty [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 06:01:24 +1000 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] this is why EFL doesn't have support. i'd have to write it all, OR use pango... and pango, last i looked, was not light on overhead, Agreed there. Have not actually benchmarked Pango myself, but by all accounts it is resource-hungry, though that is probably not inappropriate for a library aiming to handle all of Unicode. in all reality though - it's probably the ultimate way to go... or something of the kind... so as a matter of performance doing it the simple way its done now handles things for most people (who buy/use devices or linux systems as most people tend to speak a left-to-right friendly language). i have seen remarkably little interest in things like left-to-right languages over the years, and as there isn't a lot of demand and i don't actually speak any of these (i just speak european languages - a few of them, and east-asian languages), i just have never had it come up high enough on the list of things to do.. to ever do it. at least all the text internals are utf8 so... it's possible to do this without breakages... I would disagree here, though I can quite see why you might not want to take this up. Having OpenMoko hardware handle Indic text would be a big plus for its adoption here in India. An ability to send SMS in local languages would be even more of a plus, though that will also have to contend with service provider gateways that have no clue about UTF-8 or Unicode. oooh - i was just talking about utf8 being how the code all deals with text. you have a lot fo glyph space available, so it's not limited. foo COURSE you will need to translate to other charsets when dealing with things like SMS, email etc. though natively id' say the software can just do all in utf8 and only when finally dealing with the GSM modem (or on receiving of SMS or email, and sending) then do the conversion to whatever charset is needed/desired. but as such utf8 should be enough of a superset for everything internally in applications and storage to just use it. Given the current hardware limitations, the best approach for Indic languages is probably to make a special font that includes all possible glyph combinations, and a light-weight, custom rendering engine that works with the font. This would also have the benefit of allowing the rendering of Indic content on text-based terminals, such as the Linux console. This is not really *that* hard a task, and from what I hear various phone companies are sniffing around in India for someone able to put this together. then you still need a converter tat converts series of chars into special utf8-encoded glyphs to represent this font... not pretty... but of course possible. Regards, Gora ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Special Letters?
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:21:44 +1000 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:51:09 +0530 Gora Mohanty [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 06:01:24 +1000 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] this is why EFL doesn't have support. i'd have to write it all, OR use pango... and pango, last i looked, was not light on overhead, Agreed there. Have not actually benchmarked Pango myself, but by all accounts it is resource-hungry, though that is probably not inappropriate for a library aiming to handle all of Unicode. in all reality though - it's probably the ultimate way to go... or something of the kind... Hmm, maybe it is worth thinking about stripping out the portions of ICU/Pango that apply to scripts from particular regions, and making region-specific packages of these. [...] oooh - i was just talking about utf8 being how the code all deals with text. you have a lot fo glyph space available, so it's not limited. foo COURSE you will need to translate to other charsets when dealing with things like SMS, email etc. [...] then you still need a converter tat converts series of chars into special utf8-encoded glyphs to represent this font... not pretty... but of course possible. [...] Yes, you are right about the need for converters, and the need for special fonts, but I believe that this is the only way to get support for complex scripts on text-based terminals. This will need to be done at some point for the Linux console, as I doubt that they are ever going to roll support for complex text handling into the console drivers. For now, on the OpenMoko hardware, maybe a stripped-down ICU/Pango is the best solution. Let me think about this. Regards, Gora ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Special Letters?
Hey Everybody I have been thinking of buying this new Neo Freerunner. I come from Denmark and therefore when i want to write a SMS etc. I have to be able to use some national/special letters like æ,ø,å. I know that these kind of special symbols/letters are currently not supported by openmoko´s keyboard. Does anyone know if it in the feature will be possible to translate the phone and make such kind of letters on the freerunner (openmoko)? (I believe that it is the same problem for other Scandinavians etc. ) Venlig Hilsen Ole Holm Frandsen Registeret GNU/Linux bruger: 417963 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Special Letters?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I think it will be very nice: I live in Romania and when I have to write a sms I ofter I'd like to have the letters: î â ţ ă ş But I am italian so I often need to write sms in Itay and I need the letters: à ú è é È ó It will be nice to have something to fast switch the layout ofthe keyboard. Michele Renda Ole Holm Frandsen wrote: Hey Everybody I have been thinking of buying this new Neo Freerunner. I come from Denmark and therefore when i want to write a SMS etc. I have to be able to use some national/special letters like æ,ø,å. I know that these kind of special symbols/letters are currently not supported by openmoko´s keyboard. Does anyone know if it in the feature will be possible to translate the phone and make such kind of letters on the freerunner (openmoko)? (I believe that it is the same problem for other Scandinavians etc. ) Venlig Hilsen Ole Holm Frandsen Registeret GNU/Linux bruger: 417963 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiDRHoACgkQSIAU/I6SkT1yHQCfYnPpnJKyFSjovPCYfh4KuErc IaEAmweMLdss8dOGc+7ebLZGTn68P9Y1 =CFYQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Special Letters?
freerunner (openmoko)? (I believe that it is the same problem for other Scandinavians etc. ) since it is a problem of nearly everybody speaking (or rather writing) a latin alphabet based language other than english, it will work some day in a hopefully not too far future. sadly enough i currently have no clue what causes the lack of anything non-ascii, would have expected he fr to be unicode driven. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Special Letters?
arne anka, 2008-07-20 16:01:34 +0200 : sadly enough i currently have no clue what causes the lack of anything non-ascii, would have expected he fr to be unicode driven. I think it is Unicode driven. My contacts have some non-ascii characters in their names, and they display just fine. I guess the problem is mostly the input method. Roland. -- Roland Mas Bee There Orr Bee A Rectangular Thyng! -- in Soul Music (Terry Pratchett) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Special Letters?
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 16:18:37 +0200 Roland Mas [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: arne anka, 2008-07-20 16:01:34 +0200 : sadly enough i currently have no clue what causes the lack of anything non-ascii, would have expected he fr to be unicode driven. I think it is Unicode driven. My contacts have some non-ascii characters in their names, and they display just fine. I guess the problem is mostly the input method. in ASU (not in current .dev build though, but in SVN for illume) the keyboard layout is customisable via a config file and can produce any keystroke that x is capable of (so it can produce ä, ó, ñ, ø etc.) but i don't have a layout that has every one of these in it currently, but it's a simple text file to put in a directory (.kbd file). for now it has 3 layouts, simply letters-only qwerty, numeric that covers the other keys (numbers, symbols) and a few accented chars, and a full qwerty layout (ok it is missing F1-F12, Pause/Break and PrtSc/SysRq but ... if u really want u can try cram them in somehow...). i will add anther key layout for intl chars (accented ones etc.). in the end i imagine people might do custom layouts for a language (eg german would only have ä, ö, ü and ß). romainian some other set, danish another set. etc. nice simple text files for everyone to enjoy :) this should allo for a greek and russian layout too, katakana/hragana, hangul, thai, ... anything really. but right now right-to-left languages wont work (well) (arabic/farsi/hebrew). unfortunatly that is really near the bottom of my list... -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Special Letters?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: in the end i imagine people might do custom layouts for a language (eg german would only have ä, ö, ü and ß). romainian some other set, danish another set. I think i can help we collect a series of layout to ship with Freerunner. If we collect a person for every country we can provide a full set of keyboard layout (we can see the key are available in our keyboard). They are text file so them will not take too much space. We need something to easily swith from a layout to the other (if it doesn't exist yet). Regards Michele -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiDYOUACgkQSIAU/I6SkT1AcwCfZqoDOohHCzChP8Pxr0XU0gA8 kGIAn3R9F2oDJLZXJXQEJ7ZC9SdZOEfg =uDgl -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Special Letters?
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 16:18:37 +0200 Roland Mas [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: arne anka, 2008-07-20 16:01:34 +0200 : sadly enough i currently have no clue what causes the lack of anything non-ascii, would have expected he fr to be unicode driven. I think it is Unicode driven. My contacts have some non-ascii characters in their names, and they display just fine. I guess the problem is mostly the input method. in ASU (not in current .dev build though, but in SVN for illume) the keyboard layout is customisable via a config file and can produce any keystroke that x is capable of (so it can produce ä, ó, ñ, ø etc.) but i don't have a layout that has every one of these in it currently, but it's a simple text file to put in a directory (.kbd file). for now it has 3 layouts, simply letters-only qwerty, numeric that covers the other keys (numbers, symbols) and a few accented chars, and a full qwerty layout (ok it is missing F1-F12, Pause/Break and PrtSc/SysRq but ... if u really want u can try cram them in somehow...). i will add anther key layout for intl chars (accented ones etc.). in the end i imagine people might do custom layouts for a language (eg german would only have ä, ö, ü and ß). romainian some other set, danish another set. etc. nice simple text files for everyone to enjoy :) this should allo for a greek and russian layout too, katakana/hragana, hangul, thai, ... anything really. but right now right-to-left languages wont work (well) (arabic/farsi/hebrew). unfortunatly that is really near the bottom of my list... I am using the 2007.2 ( and the qtopia image, from SD card) image and I am using Hebrew in my FreeRunner (include right - to -left) read and write. in the qtopia image I can read Hebrew SMS massages (right-to- left) but I didn't try to change / re-map the keyboard to Hebrew . works fine for me. - doron -- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
