Re: unofficial safety net for community@lists.openmoko.org
On Saturday 19 May 2012 13:44:16 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Hi, Am 16.05.2012 um 15:40 schrieb Timo Juhani Lindfors: Hi, since I personally want to make sure that the material created by the openmoko community does not get lost I created an unofficial mirror for git.openmoko.org, wiki.openmoko.org and lists.openmoko.org: http://iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/mirror/ ... and since I personally want to make sure that the Openmoko Community is not breaking apart because communication is interrupted (we have had several times in the past), I have installed an unofficial safety net for this community mailing list: http://www.openphoenux.org Please subscribe yourself in time (so that you can be reached in case we suddenly need it) and switch/use the backup list if the main list is down. Thank you, too! Looking forward to not using the list ;-) Boudewijn smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
unofficial safety net for community@lists.openmoko.org
Hi, Am 16.05.2012 um 15:40 schrieb Timo Juhani Lindfors: Hi, since I personally want to make sure that the material created by the openmoko community does not get lost I created an unofficial mirror for git.openmoko.org, wiki.openmoko.org and lists.openmoko.org: http://iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/mirror/ ... and since I personally want to make sure that the Openmoko Community is not breaking apart because communication is interrupted (we have had several times in the past), I have installed an unofficial safety net for this community mailing list: http://www.openphoenux.org Please subscribe yourself in time (so that you can be reached in case we suddenly need it) and switch/use the backup list if the main list is down. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
first: this is the community and not the freakin store second: and about allowing other customers screaming at you the employees here don't go on deletin posts 'n s*** for 1 customer because this is about being open and it's community we work together we don't just buy, if u don't want to work as a team with us then why would you even subscribe in community? you must be stupid third: about the deadlines u talkin about that's on the website, first off that's the wiki, where any registered users (mostly the community) can edit the information on it, plus who told you that those were deadlines? those are only ESTIMATES fourth: stop talkin about your business rules 'n business this 'n that, this project is not just about money, it's about open source and teamwork, i'm sure you have no idea what that, but it's ok, now you can go 'n unsubscribe if u want, no ones stoppin you or stoppin me from saying this to you you know why? cause THIS IS COMMUNITY On 10/26/07, andutt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Mark I agree with you, i feel the problem with this project is the mix of commersial and hardware relates issues/questions that dont exist in other communites that often just are software related. In thoose projects the community is happy to get new eager users/developers/documenters/people who spread the word. I have always received initial respect, good behaviors from the persons in charge and people that have moderated the channels. The post you react on is really ugly, its just be glad or shutup and get the f*** out of here. Thats not good behavior, its not good for future buyers of the hardware, not good advertising for OpenMoko, people who reads it wont ask questions, maybe not be interested in contributing either. Qtopia has announsed to embrace the Neo device and have released the software under GPL which can have a very bad inpact on OpenMoko if the community gets a negative label printed on the forhead. Hopefully that wont happen and the project will continue with positive power!!! /Andreas On 10/26/07, Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AVee [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri Oct 26 00:40:21 CEST 2007 AVee wrote: Did you buy a GTA02? No? Well, in that case, your not a customer, so quit bitching about 'customer service'. You are getting a peek into the development proccess at FIC, that not something you usually get with other companies and you surely can't claim some sort of right to be informed about this. If you can't handle it, unsubscribe from the community list and wait for the announcement you telling you the thing is available, *like you would with any other product*. Or be happy with whatever information you may get, realizing it's all extra. AVee Here's the deal: I'm already a customer in the same way that I'm the customer of a store the instant I pass the threshold. My experience in the store determines whether and how much money I spend in the store. If the employees ignore me (repeatedly) when I ask them a direct question, and allow other customers to scream and yell at me for simply asking a question, then I certainly will immediately exit the building and spend my money elsewhere. I also will tell everybody I know about my experience to prevent them going through the same thing. Whether you like it or not, OpenMoko will never get off the ground without the Neo1973, and the Neo1973 will never get off the ground without early adopters like me to buy it and spread the word. This is a business venture, not a pet project. On the other hand, if everything that prospective buyers hear is negative, that doesn't offer much hope for the future of this project. Question: Who is it wiser to treat well, someone whose money you already have, or someone whose money you need? Anybody here ever hear of the Agenda VR3? Probably very few. History is littered with multitudes of great ideas and great vaporware that never made it to mainstream because those behind it either didn't understand or thought they could get away with ignoring the rules of business. The first rule of business is not to alienate potential customers. Another of the biggest rules of business (and strongly associated with the first rule) is that when you know you aren't going to make a deadline (that you have plastered in multiple places all over your Web site), *before* the deadline passes you let people know what's going on. Making a single vague reference that buyers may or may not find is not sufficient. It's up to you: do the right thing, or go the way of the Agenda VR3. But if it's the latter, you can't say you haven't been warned. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
Hello Mark I agree with you, i feel the problem with this project is the mix of commersial and hardware relates issues/questions that dont exist in other communites that often just are software related. In thoose projects the community is happy to get new eager users/developers/documenters/people who spread the word. I have always received initial respect, good behaviors from the persons in charge and people that have moderated the channels. The post you react on is really ugly, its just be glad or shutup and get the f*** out of here. Thats not good behavior, its not good for future buyers of the hardware, not good advertising for OpenMoko, people who reads it wont ask questions, maybe not be interested in contributing either. Qtopia has announsed to embrace the Neo device and have released the software under GPL which can have a very bad inpact on OpenMoko if the community gets a negative label printed on the forhead. Hopefully that wont happen and the project will continue with positive power!!! /Andreas On 10/26/07, Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AVee [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri Oct 26 00:40:21 CEST 2007 AVee wrote: Did you buy a GTA02? No? Well, in that case, your not a customer, so quit bitching about 'customer service'. You are getting a peek into the development proccess at FIC, that not something you usually get with other companies and you surely can't claim some sort of right to be informed about this. If you can't handle it, unsubscribe from the community list and wait for the announcement you telling you the thing is available, *like you would with any other product*. Or be happy with whatever information you may get, realizing it's all extra. AVee Here's the deal: I'm already a customer in the same way that I'm the customer of a store the instant I pass the threshold. My experience in the store determines whether and how much money I spend in the store. If the employees ignore me (repeatedly) when I ask them a direct question, and allow other customers to scream and yell at me for simply asking a question, then I certainly will immediately exit the building and spend my money elsewhere. I also will tell everybody I know about my experience to prevent them going through the same thing. Whether you like it or not, OpenMoko will never get off the ground without the Neo1973, and the Neo1973 will never get off the ground without early adopters like me to buy it and spread the word. This is a business venture, not a pet project. On the other hand, if everything that prospective buyers hear is negative, that doesn't offer much hope for the future of this project. Question: Who is it wiser to treat well, someone whose money you already have, or someone whose money you need? Anybody here ever hear of the Agenda VR3? Probably very few. History is littered with multitudes of great ideas and great vaporware that never made it to mainstream because those behind it either didn't understand or thought they could get away with ignoring the rules of business. The first rule of business is not to alienate potential customers. Another of the biggest rules of business (and strongly associated with the first rule) is that when you know you aren't going to make a deadline (that you have plastered in multiple places all over your Web site), *before* the deadline passes you let people know what's going on. Making a single vague reference that buyers may or may not find is not sufficient. It's up to you: do the right thing, or go the way of the Agenda VR3. But if it's the latter, you can't say you haven't been warned. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: community@lists.openmoko.org Date: mer 24 ott 07 03:48:18 -0600 Quoting Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): You need to keep in mind that: - It takes maybe a couple of minutes at most to fire off a one-paragraph email. and then it takes untold time and energy to extinguish the fire if the promises made in that two-minute, one-paragraph e-mail eventually prove to have been too optimist. here we are not talking about describing the past or present, but about foreseeing the future. If you are careful, and make appropriate use of past experience, there are good, solid possibilities that your forecast may prove true. Two minutes are way too short for this sort of exercises. - If somebody, anybody, had taken 30 seconds to post a message to the list we wouldn't be having this flood of posts on this topic right now. No. The flood is caused by lack of patience. An unripe message that were to make wild promises may only work as a painkiller. Painkillers remove the symptom, but they do not cure the problem. - Nobody is asking for an official, press-release-ready corporate announcement. All we're asking for is something like this: Sorry, folks, but due to circumstances beyond our control we are not going to be able to make the release at the previously announced time. We are working on the issues and hope to be ready for sale in December. During the life of this project I have seen several announcements of this kind. Coming at the right time. I prefer not to see messages and to know the energy of the team is focused towards having a working hardware as soon as possible, rather than to have my impatience quelled by official postponements that have no base in real events. I rest comforted by the facts that a) it is their jobs, not mine, that are in relation with a speedy delivery of both openmoko and the neo, and b) if, come the worst, no functional phone were to eventually surface from this project, well, my old treo still works OK... The best we can do to help is to provide support and encouragement to the hard-working team. And to exercise the subtle art of patience. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
Carlo, thanks for this post. I was thinking about writting a similar one, but since my english isn't super, you did a much better job. Just like all of us, I'm looking forward to have a Neo and start hacking the little thing. But the Neo is just the start of a long story of freedom. Patience is one thing we can all practice meanwhile. Programming is another! Working out the documentation is yet another. On the other hand, I believe it is important as a community to recognize that impatience exists and that it is normal. That there is no reason to flame someone for not having googled, searched the wiki and mailing list archived before asking a question. If there is a nice and easy place to find the info, why not point the guy there, with a smile. There are hundreds of others who read the mailing list, they will follow the link and learn. Good luck! Simon On 10/25/07, Carlo E. Prelz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Subject: community@lists.openmoko.org Date: mer 24 ott 07 03:48:18 -0600 Quoting Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): You need to keep in mind that: - It takes maybe a couple of minutes at most to fire off a one-paragraph email. and then it takes untold time and energy to extinguish the fire if the promises made in that two-minute, one-paragraph e-mail eventually prove to have been too optimist. here we are not talking about describing the past or present, but about foreseeing the future. If you are careful, and make appropriate use of past experience, there are good, solid possibilities that your forecast may prove true. Two minutes are way too short for this sort of exercises. - If somebody, anybody, had taken 30 seconds to post a message to the list we wouldn't be having this flood of posts on this topic right now. No. The flood is caused by lack of patience. An unripe message that were to make wild promises may only work as a painkiller. Painkillers remove the symptom, but they do not cure the problem. - Nobody is asking for an official, press-release-ready corporate announcement. All we're asking for is something like this: Sorry, folks, but due to circumstances beyond our control we are not going to be able to make the release at the previously announced time. We are working on the issues and hope to be ready for sale in December. During the life of this project I have seen several announcements of this kind. Coming at the right time. I prefer not to see messages and to know the energy of the team is focused towards having a working hardware as soon as possible, rather than to have my impatience quelled by official postponements that have no base in real events. I rest comforted by the facts that a) it is their jobs, not mine, that are in relation with a speedy delivery of both openmoko and the neo, and b) if, come the worst, no functional phone were to eventually surface from this project, well, my old treo still works OK... The best we can do to help is to provide support and encouragement to the hard-working team. And to exercise the subtle art of patience. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
I must admit that I can't follow the patience idea. Some facts: * FIC is a commercial company and they want to sell devices to finaly make money * impatience generates market demand - patient people wait forever. This is no good business model. What happens if the impatient people buy an iPhone and the patient ones sit there and simply wait for announcements? This list will become quite inactive (in my subjective observation it is already). FIC will have to decide that nobody is here anymore impatiently waiting for them to deliver anything. And they will finally have to cancel the project because it will not be able to meet their financial goals. Impatience shows interested people eagerly waiting for the heroes to deliver something extraordinary! And note: developers are the early adopters. Patient people (marketing speak calls them laggards) are the last to buy something. And talking about being a customer or not. I do also not agree completely that we are developers and not customers and therefore are not allowed to demand anything. Developers have paid (or will pay) for a hardware. Well, we have not paid for technical support. But the whole OpenMoko project assumes a substantial contribution from the developers towards the project success. I.e. we do even invest our time to push the project. So, we pay in addition to the device hardware for getting this open platform. Therefore, we can IMHO expect some more insight into what is going on because we pay more... Finally, I also wonder a little about the expectation that the hero (core) developers should only develop (behind some curtain and not be disturbed) and somebody else should write announcements, documentation, help, etc. This attitude fits more to closed companies. Nikolaus Schaller - Golden Delicious Computers GmbHCo. KG http://www.goldelico.com Digital Tools for Independent People - Am 25.10.2007 um 09:18 schrieb Simon: Carlo, thanks for this post. I was thinking about writting a similar one, but since my english isn't super, you did a much better job. Just like all of us, I'm looking forward to have a Neo and start hacking the little thing. But the Neo is just the start of a long story of freedom. Patience is one thing we can all practice meanwhile. Programming is another! Working out the documentation is yet another. On the other hand, I believe it is important as a community to recognize that impatience exists and that it is normal. That there is no reason to flame someone for not having googled, searched the wiki and mailing list archived before asking a question. If there is a nice and easy place to find the info, why not point the guy there, with a smile. There are hundreds of others who read the mailing list, they will follow the link and learn. Good luck! Simon On 10/25/07, Carlo E. Prelz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Subject: community@lists.openmoko.org Date: mer 24 ott 07 03:48:18 -0600 Quoting Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): You need to keep in mind that: - It takes maybe a couple of minutes at most to fire off a one-paragraph email. and then it takes untold time and energy to extinguish the fire if the promises made in that two-minute, one-paragraph e-mail eventually prove to have been too optimist. here we are not talking about describing the past or present, but about foreseeing the future. If you are careful, and make appropriate use of past experience, there are good, solid possibilities that your forecast may prove true. Two minutes are way too short for this sort of exercises. - If somebody, anybody, had taken 30 seconds to post a message to the list we wouldn't be having this flood of posts on this topic right now. No. The flood is caused by lack of patience. An unripe message that were to make wild promises may only work as a painkiller. Painkillers remove the symptom, but they do not cure the problem. - Nobody is asking for an official, press-release-ready corporate announcement. All we're asking for is something like this: Sorry, folks, but due to circumstances beyond our control we are not going to be able to make the release at the previously announced time. We are working on the issues and hope to be ready for sale in December. During the life of this project I have seen several announcements of this kind. Coming at the right time. I prefer not to see messages and to know the energy of the team is focused towards having a working hardware as soon as possible, rather than to have my impatience quelled by official postponements that have no base in real events. I rest comforted by the facts that a) it is their jobs, not mine, that are in relation with a speedy delivery of both openmoko and the neo, and b) if, come the worst, no functional phone were to eventually surface from this project
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
First of all, on 28. of September Michael Shiloh made the announcement that the GTA02 will be delayed at least until mid to end of december. EVERYBODY should have been able to find this announcement easily. So please do NOT complain that this information was not given early enough. [flame] If you weren't subscribed then, why haven't you searched the archive before asking (and especially before complaining that no information was given at all)? [/flame] Also do not complain that the Wiki is not updated immediately. Most of the incriminated articles were written by community members and not by official openmoko employees. So it should be the responsibility for that members to keep them updated. If they are to lazy to do this, they should have linked to an official side instead of stating a fixed date. Whatever you do, but do not blame others. And because a lot of people claim for announcements, one should take into account that announcements should only be made for something, which is already finished. Everything else just generates vaporware (and we already have to much of that kind of products). This is at least true for commercial products and the Neo is still in development, hence not a commercial product YET. I am already a customer of FIC (GTA01v4) and will definitely also get one of the GTA02 gadgets. In addition to this, I also started to write an application especially focused on the Neo. But it appears to me as if most of the people on this community list just complain about THEIR OWN DREAMS not coming true. If you want to take part into the community, get a GTA01 and start making your dreams come true, but please do not complain that all the fruits within your neighbours backyard (aka. GTA02) are sweeter than yours (aka. GTA01). I am deeply grateful that FIC let me take part in this early phase of development, but I am really pissed of by all this people here which got a hand by FIC and now try to rip off the complete arm (sorry for my bad english but I am not well trained in english sayings; that was another german one translated into english). The Neo is, was, and will be, a product for geeks and therefore never was intended to be a mass market product. Geeks do not look at fancy glamour but for useful attributes. But also geeks do not want to buy faulty hardware (software is a different beast, in particular if it is open source). If you want a fancy glamourous mobile, go and get an IPhone. If you want to hack an open source mobile, go and get a GTA01. If you want to have the jack of all trades aka. GTA02 there is nothing left but to be patient. And it won't get any faster if you ask every week when it will be ready. And only dumb managers expect to get a precise timeframe if they ask a developer how long it will take to solve a not yet known problem. And ... no it is not smarter to ask for a vague estimation, because that would be reading tea leaves and nothing serious. And ... no it is also not smarter if you accept an vague estimation just to maintain hope. You only will get disappointed, because no developer will met a former estimation he made, ever! I apologize in advance for every indignities someone will find within my mail, which HE thinks is aimed at him personally. Regards Karsten ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
On 10/25/07, Karsten Ensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip [flame] If you weren't subscribed then, why haven't you searched the archive before asking (and especially before complaining that no information was given at all)? [/flame] snip Regards Karsten I can see what you're saying, people who subscribed right after one of Micheal or Sean's really important emails might wait for a while before the next one. To them, it would appear that these things never go out, and that they're in the dark. It seems to me that we see these kind of conversations start about every other month. What about creating a state of the project email that is sent on subscribe, kind of a welcome to openmoko, here's what's going on: a 2 minute blurb to bring people up to speed, and reference them to the appropriate wiki pages to find out what else they need? This would need to be kept reasonably up to date, probably revised after every big announcement, and after the bi-weekly emails. To a new subscriber though, it would give them an official answer about what's going on, until they can see some of the updates that get sent out. What do people think? Might this solve some of the problem? -- Jeff O|||O ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
The GTA02 redesign is what caused the delay. Mass produce GTA01 with an unfinished software stack, no WiFi, no smedia graphics accelerator, no accelerometer, no working aGPS; waiting four months to release the mass produced GTA02 with all those things in it. You get all the iphone comparisons, customers complaining about buggy software, and customers complaining about the GTA02 being released four months later. I think this way would be a disservice to openmoko and embedded linux systems. Or produce limited numbers of GTA01, until GTA02 is ready, hopefully fixing the software stack and aGPS by then. You must have patience with this choice though. If this was a normal company all you would receive is a press release or a footnote buried in an annual report about a delay. I think they are doing the right thing overall. Adam Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: I must admit that I can't follow the patience idea. Some facts: * FIC is a commercial company and they want to sell devices to finaly make money * impatience generates market demand - patient people wait forever. This is no good business model. What happens if the impatient people buy an iPhone and the patient ones sit there and simply wait for announcements? This list will become quite inactive (in my subjective observation it is already). FIC will have to decide that nobody is here anymore impatiently waiting for them to deliver anything. And they will finally have to cancel the project because it will not be able to meet their financial goals. Impatience shows interested people eagerly waiting for the heroes to deliver something extraordinary! And note: developers are the early adopters. Patient people (marketing speak calls them laggards) are the last to buy something. And talking about being a customer or not. I do also not agree completely that we are developers and not customers and therefore are not allowed to demand anything. Developers have paid (or will pay) for a hardware. Well, we have not paid for technical support. But the whole OpenMoko project assumes a substantial contribution from the developers towards the project success. I.e. we do even invest our time to push the project. So, we pay in addition to the device hardware for getting this open platform. Therefore, we can IMHO expect some more insight into what is going on because we pay more... Finally, I also wonder a little about the expectation that the hero (core) developers should only develop (behind some curtain and not be disturbed) and somebody else should write announcements, documentation, help, etc. This attitude fits more to closed companies. Nikolaus Schaller - Golden Delicious Computers GmbHCo. KG http://www.goldelico.com Digital Tools for Independent People - Am 25.10.2007 um 09:18 schrieb Simon: Carlo, thanks for this post. I was thinking about writting a similar one, but since my english isn't super, you did a much better job. Just like all of us, I'm looking forward to have a Neo and start hacking the little thing. But the Neo is just the start of a long story of freedom. Patience is one thing we can all practice meanwhile. Programming is another! Working out the documentation is yet another. On the other hand, I believe it is important as a community to recognize that impatience exists and that it is normal. That there is no reason to flame someone for not having googled, searched the wiki and mailing list archived before asking a question. If there is a nice and easy place to find the info, why not point the guy there, with a smile. There are hundreds of others who read the mailing list, they will follow the link and learn. Good luck! Simon On 10/25/07, Carlo E. Prelz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Subject: community@lists.openmoko.org Date: mer 24 ott 07 03:48:18 -0600 Quoting Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): You need to keep in mind that: - It takes maybe a couple of minutes at most to fire off a one-paragraph email. and then it takes untold time and energy to extinguish the fire if the promises made in that two-minute, one-paragraph e-mail eventually prove to have been too optimist. here we are not talking about describing the past or present, but about foreseeing the future. If you are careful, and make appropriate use of past experience, there are good, solid possibilities that your forecast may prove true. Two minutes are way too short for this sort of exercises. - If somebody, anybody, had taken 30 seconds to post a message to the list we wouldn't be having this flood of posts on this topic right now. No. The flood is caused by lack of patience. An unripe message that were to make wild promises may only work as a painkiller. Painkillers remove the symptom, but they do not cure the problem. - Nobody is asking for an official, press-release-ready corporate
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
On Wednesday 24 October 2007 01:25, Richard Reichenbacher wrote: Mark wrote: Richard Reichenbacher richard5 at email.arizona.edu Tue Oct 23 21:03:31 CEST 2007 Or perhaps you could continue searching the wiki for updated information. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA02 Scroll down to estimated time line. Oh, yeah, there's a single place in the entire wiki that gives updated information. It's so reasonable to expect everybody to dig through the entire site to find it, amid the multitude of places that still say OCTOBER... All I'm asking for is the occasional update on the announce list (what is that list for, anyway, if it's not for exactly this kind of thing?). There hasn't been a post to that list for a month, and that was only a request for help on the Web-shop. The last real post to that list was on August 20, more than two months ago. Do you really think that's reasonable If this is the kind of attitude and customer service we can expect after we buy the thing, I'm not so sure I'm interested anymore... Did you buy a GTA02? No? Well, in that case, your not a customer, so quit bitching about 'customer service'. You are getting a peek into the development proccess at FIC, that not something you usually get with other companies and you surely can't claim some sort of right to be informed about this. If you can't handle it, unsubscribe from the community list and wait for the announcement you telling you the thing is available, *like you would with any other product*. Or be happy with whatever information you may get, realizing it's all extra. AVee -- An apple every eight hours will keep three doctors away. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
Andreas Utterberg schrieb: Nice approach!?. Not!, why flame everyone that have a oppinion? Thats what community work is all about. Lets face it, the month is wrong and the information is hard to find for new customers, users and developers. Hi, I don't think so -I'm a newbie to OpenMoko and found the updated schedule during my fist time reading the wiki. It's not so hard to find nor is it hard to understand why the releasetimes are estimated. AFAIK this is an Project focussed on the technical plattform instead of a short time-to-market. Just keep that in mind. Markus ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
Mark schrieb: - It takes maybe a couple of minutes at most to fire off a one-paragraph email. Mark, this is leading nowhere. OpenMoko is a community effort - would you mind to give some input? You might become wiki updater who gets emails from the developers and puts the information into that wiki. The only obstacle is that the developers and other decision makers actually inform you. Half of the energy you spent in this thread could have brought the project forward. Your opinion? Is this idea completely nuts? timbo ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
community@lists.openmoko.org
AVee [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri Oct 26 00:40:21 CEST 2007 AVee wrote: Did you buy a GTA02? No? Well, in that case, your not a customer, so quit bitching about 'customer service'. You are getting a peek into the development proccess at FIC, that not something you usually get with other companies and you surely can't claim some sort of right to be informed about this. If you can't handle it, unsubscribe from the community list and wait for the announcement you telling you the thing is available, *like you would with any other product*. Or be happy with whatever information you may get, realizing it's all extra. AVee Here's the deal: I'm already a customer in the same way that I'm the customer of a store the instant I pass the threshold. My experience in the store determines whether and how much money I spend in the store. If the employees ignore me (repeatedly) when I ask them a direct question, and allow other customers to scream and yell at me for simply asking a question, then I certainly will immediately exit the building and spend my money elsewhere. I also will tell everybody I know about my experience to prevent them going through the same thing. Whether you like it or not, OpenMoko will never get off the ground without the Neo1973, and the Neo1973 will never get off the ground without early adopters like me to buy it and spread the word. This is a business venture, not a pet project. On the other hand, if everything that prospective buyers hear is negative, that doesn't offer much hope for the future of this project. Question: Who is it wiser to treat well, someone whose money you already have, or someone whose money you need? Anybody here ever hear of the Agenda VR3? Probably very few. History is littered with multitudes of great ideas and great vaporware that never made it to mainstream because those behind it either didn't understand or thought they could get away with ignoring the rules of business. The first rule of business is not to alienate potential customers. Another of the biggest rules of business (and strongly associated with the first rule) is that when you know you aren't going to make a deadline (that you have plastered in multiple places all over your Web site), *before* the deadline passes you let people know what's going on. Making a single vague reference that buyers may or may not find is not sufficient. It's up to you: do the right thing, or go the way of the Agenda VR3. But if it's the latter, you can't say you haven't been warned. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
No it doesnt, this important information should be on the products page or on the importent news on openmoko.com. Its extremly important information to people that is about to buy the device. Bouth regular users and for developers. /Andreas On 10/24/07, Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard Reichenbacher richard5 at email.arizona.edu Tue Oct 23 21:03:31 CEST 2007 Or perhaps you could continue searching the wiki for updated information. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA02 Scroll down to estimated time line. Oh, yeah, there's a single place in the entire wiki that gives updated information. It's so reasonable to expect everybody to dig through the entire site to find it, amid the multitude of places that still say OCTOBER... All I'm asking for is the occasional update on the announce list (what is that list for, anyway, if it's not for exactly this kind of thing?). There hasn't been a post to that list for a month, and that was only a request for help on the Web-shop. The last real post to that list was on August 20, more than two months ago. Do you really think that's reasonable If this is the kind of attitude and customer service we can expect after we buy the thing, I'm not so sure I'm interested anymore... Wolfmane ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Andreas Utterberg Thundera AB ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
On Wednesday 24 October 2007 01:25, Richard Reichenbacher wrote: Mark wrote: Richard Reichenbacher richard5 at email.arizona.edu Tue Oct 23 21:03:31 CEST 2007 Or perhaps you could continue searching the wiki for updated information. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA02 Scroll down to estimated time line. Oh, yeah, there's a single place in the entire wiki that gives updated information. It's so reasonable to expect everybody to dig through the entire site to find it, amid the multitude of places that still say OCTOBER... All I'm asking for is the occasional update on the announce list (what is that list for, anyway, if it's not for exactly this kind of thing?). There hasn't been a post to that list for a month, and that was only a request for help on the Web-shop. The last real post to that list was on August 20, more than two months ago. Do you really think that's reasonable If this is the kind of attitude and customer service we can expect after we buy the thing, I'm not so sure I'm interested anymore... Did you buy a GTA02? No? Well, in that case, your not a customer, so quit bitching about 'customer service', because thats something only customers get. You are getting a peek into the development proccess at FIC, that not something you usually get with other companies and you surely can't claim some sort of right to be informed about this. If you can't handle it, unsubscribe from the community list and wait for the announcement telling you the thing is available, *like you would with any other product*. Or be happy with whatever information you may get, realizing it's all extra. AVee -- An apple every eight hours will keep three doctors away. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
Nice approach!?. Not!, why flame everyone that have a oppinion? Thats what community work is all about. Lets face it, the month is wrong and the information is hard to find for new customers, users and developers. Also they will not have a clue what GTA02 is from the start.. Stop flaming, and start helping and fix things instead. /Andreas On 10/24/07, AVee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 24 October 2007 01:25, Richard Reichenbacher wrote: Mark wrote: Richard Reichenbacher richard5 at email.arizona.edu Tue Oct 23 21:03:31 CEST 2007 Or perhaps you could continue searching the wiki for updated information. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA02 Scroll down to estimated time line. Oh, yeah, there's a single place in the entire wiki that gives updated information. It's so reasonable to expect everybody to dig through the entire site to find it, amid the multitude of places that still say OCTOBER... All I'm asking for is the occasional update on the announce list (what is that list for, anyway, if it's not for exactly this kind of thing?). There hasn't been a post to that list for a month, and that was only a request for help on the Web-shop. The last real post to that list was on August 20, more than two months ago. Do you really think that's reasonable If this is the kind of attitude and customer service we can expect after we buy the thing, I'm not so sure I'm interested anymore... Did you buy a GTA02? No? Well, in that case, your not a customer, so quit bitching about 'customer service', because thats something only customers get. You are getting a peek into the development proccess at FIC, that not something you usually get with other companies and you surely can't claim some sort of right to be informed about this. If you can't handle it, unsubscribe from the community list and wait for the announcement telling you the thing is available, *like you would with any other product*. Or be happy with whatever information you may get, realizing it's all extra. AVee -- An apple every eight hours will keep three doctors away. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Andreas Utterberg Thundera AB ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
On Wednesday 24 October 2007 14:07, Andreas Utterberg wrote: Nice approach!?. Not!, why flame everyone that have a oppinion? Thats what community work is all about. Lets face it, the month is wrong and the information is hard to find for new customers, users and developers. Also they will not have a clue what GTA02 is from the start.. Stop flaming, and start helping and fix things instead. So ranting against one of they few companies that actually let you in on their development process is OK, but I am flamimg? Or *demanding* more effort from a company that is going out of it's ways to provide you a fully open phone, is that what community work is about? FIC is a commercial company doing far more than then they have to (Did Apple keep you posted about progess of the iPhone development?), you do realize they could have choosen not to publish any information at all? If these kind of demands are what they get in return for providing information I really can't blame them when thats what they do next time. But I don't want that to happen, so please, accept what you are getting here and be happy with it. And whining about customer service is something only customers are allowed to do, what FIC is doing here is providing community service and goes beyond any obligation they have toward us. I really annoys me when people claim a right to get something *for free*. It doesn't work that way, you can ask, but you just can't make demands. AVee -- meeting, n.: An assembly of people coming together to decide what person or department not represented in the room must solve a problem. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
Actually, you do make a good point. I should post my bi-weekly updates to the announce list as well. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Michael All I'm asking for is the occasional update on the announce list (what is that list for, anyway, if it's not for exactly this kind of thing?). There hasn't been a post to that list for a month, and that was only a request for help on the Web-shop. The last real post to that list was on August 20, more than two months ago. Do you really think that's reasonable ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
On 10/24/07, AVee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what FIC is doing here is providing community service and goes beyond any obligation they have toward us. I really annoys me when people claim a right to get something *for free*. It doesn't work that way, you can ask, but you just can't make demands. AVee -- meeting, n.: An assembly of people coming together to decide what person or department not represented in the room must solve a problem. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Ok, everybody chill for a second. AVee's right, we're getting way more info, and a deeper look into FIC and OpenMoko's dev process than you get from any other company... some craziness and confusion is pretty much standard for any product development... normally by the time apple or HP or whoever announces a product, that is a distant memory, and it's all been sorted out. On the other hand, the community members are a part of the development process, like any development team we can expect to be kept in the loop. Keeping half your team in the dark is a sure way to kill a project. The problem is, developing products like this is in it's infancy. I'm not sure that this is the first hardware product that's both large-scale and community based, but if not it's pretty close. The openmoko team is not only having to develop a product, they're also having to develop how to create an open, commercial hardware platform. Michael was hired to address some of these communication issues. As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong) he's here to be our liason into the company's progress. We're all so used to big faceless companies that you have to wheedle decent service out of, that some of us have forgotten how to do anything else. Next time there is a question like this, lets keep it civil, there may be a delay in getting back to you because people have to go find the answer, or it's not something that's been set yet. Worst case, there are people inside OpenMoko(is there a set rule of how to capitalize that? OpenMoko, Openmoko, OpenMoKo?) that will answer your question, but be aware that most of them have other duties... If you're asking Harald a question, realize answering your question takes time away from developing. anyways, let's try to be patient... remember we're still at the crawling phase -- Jeff O|||O ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
community@lists.openmoko.org
Ted Lemon mellon at fugue.com Wed Oct 24 02:08:57 CEST 2007 On Oct 23, 2007, at 4:25 PM, Richard Reichenbacher wrote: It's so reasonable to expect everybody to dig through the entire site to find it, amid the multitude of places that still say OCTOBER... Considering that the alternative is for someone *else* to dig through the site and report the same answer to you, yes, actually, it does sound pretty reasonable for you to dig through the site yourself! :') No, the alternative is for the people who are actually producing the item to make an announcement. What is so difficult and unreasonable about that concept?? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
On 10/24/07, Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, the alternative is for the people who are actually producing the item to make an announcement. What is so difficult and unreasonable about that concept?? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community keep in mind that: - you're dealing with what is essentially a community project, the official team is small and lean... taking time out to make announcements used to mean taking a developer/manager off of developing/managing... Michael is just getting into his swing for this - you're dealing with a pre-production project... release dates are more goals to hit than hard and firm dates... they could have another block issue and have to scrap the design and do it a fifth time (knocking on my desk... I think it has some wood in it somewhere) - this is one of (if not the first) hardware platforms of this scope that's open and community driven... a lot of the process/procedure is being made up as we go along -- Jeff O|||O ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
community@lists.openmoko.org
Jeff Andros jeff at bigredtj.com On Wed Oct 24 23:22:11 CEST 2007 --- On 10/24/07, Mark wolfmane at gmail.com wrote: No, the alternative is for the people who are actually producing the item to make an announcement. What is so difficult and unreasonable about that concept?? keep in mind that: - you're dealing with what is essentially a community project, the official team is small and lean... taking time out to make announcements used to mean taking a developer/manager off of developing/managing... Michael is just getting into his swing for this - you're dealing with a pre-production project... release dates are more goals to hit than hard and firm dates... they could have another block issue and have to scrap the design and do it a fifth time (knocking on my desk... I think it has some wood in it somewhere) - this is one of (if not the first) hardware platforms of this scope that's open and community driven... a lot of the process/procedure is being made up as we go along -- Jeff O|||O -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/attachments/20071024/68cc02a8/attachment.htm You need to keep in mind that: - It takes maybe a couple of minutes at most to fire off a one-paragraph email. - We're NOT talking about taking a developer/manager off of developing/managing. That's absurd. - If somebody, anybody, had taken 30 seconds to post a message to the list we wouldn't be having this flood of posts on this topic right now. - making things up as we go along implies a learning process, which means instead of getting defensive and denying responsibility and wasting tons of everyone's time discussing a topic that should not be an issue, learning the lesson and moving forward. - Nobody is asking for an official, press-release-ready corporate announcement. All we're asking for is something like this: Sorry, folks, but due to circumstances beyond our control we are not going to be able to make the release at the previously announced time. We are working on the issues and hope to be ready for sale in December. Then, any time the most recent deadline becomes impossible or highly unlikely, make a similar update announcement. I still fail to understand what is so burdensome about that. Mark ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
community@lists.openmoko.org
Richard Reichenbacher richard5 at email.arizona.edu Tue Oct 23 21:03:31 CEST 2007 Or perhaps you could continue searching the wiki for updated information. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA02 Scroll down to estimated time line. Oh, yeah, there's a single place in the entire wiki that gives updated information. It's so reasonable to expect everybody to dig through the entire site to find it, amid the multitude of places that still say OCTOBER... All I'm asking for is the occasional update on the announce list (what is that list for, anyway, if it's not for exactly this kind of thing?). There hasn't been a post to that list for a month, and that was only a request for help on the Web-shop. The last real post to that list was on August 20, more than two months ago. Do you really think that's reasonable If this is the kind of attitude and customer service we can expect after we buy the thing, I'm not so sure I'm interested anymore... Wolfmane ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
Mark wrote: Richard Reichenbacher richard5 at email.arizona.edu Tue Oct 23 21:03:31 CEST 2007 Or perhaps you could continue searching the wiki for updated information. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA02 Scroll down to estimated time line. Oh, yeah, there's a single place in the entire wiki that gives updated information. It's so reasonable to expect everybody to dig through the entire site to find it, amid the multitude of places that still say OCTOBER... All I'm asking for is the occasional update on the announce list (what is that list for, anyway, if it's not for exactly this kind of thing?). There hasn't been a post to that list for a month, and that was only a request for help on the Web-shop. The last real post to that list was on August 20, more than two months ago. Do you really think that's reasonable If this is the kind of attitude and customer service we can expect after we buy the thing, I'm not so sure I'm interested anymore... Wolfmane ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I gave you the wiki page SPECIFICALLY for the GTA02. You'd think that would be the most likely place to find information about it. Michael Shilo (if I spelled his name right) provides updates to the community list all the time. Pay attention or quit complaining. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community@lists.openmoko.org
On Oct 23, 2007, at 4:25 PM, Richard Reichenbacher wrote: It's so reasonable to expect everybody to dig through the entire site to find it, amid the multitude of places that still say OCTOBER... Considering that the alternative is for someone *else* to dig through the site and report the same answer to you, yes, actually, it does sound pretty reasonable for you to dig through the site yourself! :') ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
