Re: firefox for mobiles
Myk Melez wrote: David Ford wrote: Even with tuning, FF is a dastard piggy. I've tested things with FF. Start it with no history, no recovered session. Load up digg.com and do nothing. Just let it sit there. It will sit there and slowly grow and grow and grow. The caching isn't the problem, that's tunable. The problem is the memory leaks -- all the valgrind reports turned into moz teams (and ignored). I tried this over the weekend, creating a fresh profile for Firefox, starting it up, loading digg.com into it, and then letting it sit for a day. Memory consumption stayed constant. I'm using the latest nightly version of Firefox 2.0 (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.4pre) Gecko/20070513 BonEcho/2.0.0.4pre) on Ubuntu Linux 6.10. -myk ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I also tried doing this, but I got mixed results. Firefox 2.0.0.2, minus all the extensions and themes, would have consistent memory use sometimes, but not always. I did notice, however, that I could only get the memory to start leaking when using certain sites, digg being the primary one. The rate of the leak was quite substantial, and I imagine that the site's scripting or embedded flash/media content may be at least partially responsible. I had honestly never used digg before this test, and all of the other sites I use (like google, slashdot, wikipedia, and many others) have never caused me problems when leaving them open for days. However, this discussion is entirely off-topic at this point. The mainstream x86 FF release is not in any way a suitable candidate for the openmoko. The neo uses a different architecture. If a derivation or port of FF/Mozilla code is used on the neo, then an existing memory leak is of little concern - it's open source, submit a patch. ~Bradley ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: firefox for mobiles
David Ford wrote: Even with tuning, FF is a dastard piggy. I've tested things with FF. Start it with no history, no recovered session. Load up digg.com and do nothing. Just let it sit there. It will sit there and slowly grow and grow and grow. The caching isn't the problem, that's tunable. The problem is the memory leaks -- all the valgrind reports turned into moz teams (and ignored). I tried this over the weekend, creating a fresh profile for Firefox, starting it up, loading digg.com into it, and then letting it sit for a day. Memory consumption stayed constant. I'm using the latest nightly version of Firefox 2.0 (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.4pre) Gecko/20070513 BonEcho/2.0.0.4pre) on Ubuntu Linux 6.10. -myk ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: firefox for mobiles
On 5/11/07, Ian Stirling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The big problem is the lack of debug tools. I write a new extension. I then want to profile it, to find out how much CPU, and how much CPU it makes the core use. I can't. Worse, the same problem applies to most of the XUL/XBL/JS core. I was wondering if it would be possible to write an extension that shows CPU and RAM usage in each tab of the browser, so you can profile your pages. Web developers could make good use of that, and maybe we'd see fewer of the kind of pages on the web that are causing a lot of the memory usage. But apparently you can't do that? For a graphical browser that isn't a pig, there is dillo, which has its limitations, but at least it is small. Or opera of course... it went fully open-source didn't it? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: firefox for mobiles
Hi Or opera of course... it went fully open-source didn't it? No it's not. It's just free. I'm wondering why nobody seems to consider webkit as the viable alternative: * it's open source * it's been ported to qt recently, which may lead openmoko to use qt libs * there is a registered google summer of code whose aim is to port webkit for openmoko http://code.google.com/soc/openmoko/appinfo.html?csaid=B5A2E96741FD60E4 * there is an ongoing effort to put webkit gdk together http://trac.webkit.org/projects/webkit/browser/trunk/WebCore/platform/gdk * so many firms use webkit in their own mobile products (ex: nokia S60)... because it's maybe the fastest and lightest webengine So Let's wait 'til the end of the summer :) Regards Florent ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: firefox for mobiles
Florent THIERY writes: I'm wondering why nobody seems to consider webkit as the viable alternative: I'm sort of missing why you seem to feel webkit isn't a viable alternative -- I've never worked with it at all, but you seem to be giving a bunch of reasons why it's likely to be just that by the end of summer. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: firefox for mobiles
On Fri, 2007-05-11 at 16:12 +0200, Thomas Gstädtner wrote: As announced this is a long term project, so there will be no firefox mobile in 2007 and maybe not in 2008. Firefox doesnt only use a massive amount of RAM, it also needs a powerful CPU. Imho a browser based on KHTML/WebKit, especially S60WebKit would be the best choise. Whoever has used one of the new S60 3rd Edition will agree, because that browser simply rocks (and is damn fast!). S60WebKit is partly OpenSource, only the UI isn't. Runs on Symbian tho :( ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: firefox for mobiles
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yowza! Looks like our favorite Web browser is about to go mobile. Mozilla head honcho, Mitchell Baker, told the folks at APC magazine that Mozilla is working on a Firefox to go for your cellphone. It's a long-term project (meaning it's not coming out any time soon), but the goal is to allow it to work with all the add-ons and plug-ins that the full version works with. FWIW, the Mozilla Corporation is *not* working on a Firefox to go for your cellphone. We are, however, working on a Java midlet and server that let you pass data from Firefox to your phone. It's called Project Joey, and you can get more info on the Mozilla Labs featured projects list http://labs.mozilla.com/featured-projects/. And we're also rearchitecting Gecko, the rendering engine inside Firefox, to improve embeddability in mobile phones, among other goals. Read more about that on the Mozilla 2 wiki page http://wiki.mozilla.org/Mozilla_2. -myk ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: firefox for mobiles
David Ford wrote: I used to love FF, now it's just a cpu/ram hog that usually gets killed by the kernel every 36-48 hours for taking about 2G of ram. Memory leaks in Firefox (as opposed to high memory consumption generally, which as Bradley notes is often caused by Firefox's agressive caching of tab history) can be caused by bugs in core code, but they often come from extensions and web pages. The latter have become more common since the advent of web-based productivity applications like gmail and Zimbra that people leave open in tabs for hours, days, or weeks. One way to check for extension leaks or certain core Firefox leaks is to install the Leak Monitor extension http://dbaron.org/mozilla/leak-monitor/. But that extension still won't catch memory leaks in web pages themselves, so it won't detect that f.e. gmail or digg uses more memory over time. -myk ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: firefox for mobiles
David Ford wrote: If it's anything like mozilla/firefox now, we're gonna need a hefty battery, hugely more cpu, and about 1G of ram onboard. Oddly. It seems to behave OK on my laptop - 1.5 - which I was using for some time with 128M RAM. Admittedly, it did need restarted every day or three. The big problem is the lack of debug tools. I write a new extension. I then want to profile it, to find out how much CPU, and how much CPU it makes the core use. I can't. Worse, the same problem applies to most of the XUL/XBL/JS core. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: firefox for mobiles
As announced this is a long term project, so there will be no firefox mobile in 2007 and maybe not in 2008. Firefox doesnt only use a massive amount of RAM, it also needs a powerful CPU. Imho a browser based on KHTML/WebKit, especially S60WebKit would be the best choise. Whoever has used one of the new S60 3rd Edition will agree, because that browser simply rocks (and is damn fast!). S60WebKit is partly OpenSource, only the UI isn't. http://opensource.nokia.com/projects/S60browser/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: firefox for mobiles
here is a test of minimo 0.2: http://ekstreme.com/thingsofsorts/fun-web/first-look-at-minimo ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: firefox for mobiles
While FF does have a fairly large footprint, I've never had these kinds of memory consumption problems. I generally leave my FF sessions open for days or weeks at home, and I simultaneously load 3D games, OOo, graphics apps, and other stuff without ever having trouble with memory (granted I do have 2GB). However, even the large memory footprint that I do see has an explanation, and can be tuned by tweaking about:config. By default, FF caches every page loaded on every tab for that sessions. If you consider a geek's multi-day surfing session, that is a lot of data to cache, and the cache data also can't be compressed. Since the primary target of FF is the average user -- which has several short surfing sessions and usually closes the browser between sessions -- the default settings make sense. If this is not your surfing style, then change your settings. That said, the full blown browser would be an awfully hefty app to put on a phone, and the minimo browser is currently targeting windows portables. Why not go with something with a tiny footprint, time-tested and proven lynx anyone? ~Bradley David Ford wrote: It behaves far better on my laptop as well, I strongly suspect it has something to do with the 64bit nature of my desktop vs 32 for all other places I use it. My 64bit firefox is currently taking 1.8G of ram after having been started ~16 hours ago. Several groups of people, myself included, have submitted valgrind outputs that show massive memory hemorrhaging but the reports pretty much get ignored. :( More debug tools would go a long way towards letting the community find and fix these issues and make FF something desirable on the neo. I love the idea of the neo, but it's just too small in cpu/ram for some other (really neat) ideas. I'm impatient :D -david Ian Stirling wrote: David Ford wrote: If it's anything like mozilla/firefox now, we're gonna need a hefty battery, hugely more cpu, and about 1G of ram onboard. Oddly. It seems to behave OK on my laptop - 1.5 - which I was using for some time with 128M RAM. Admittedly, it did need restarted every day or three. The big problem is the lack of debug tools. I write a new extension. I then want to profile it, to find out how much CPU, and how much CPU it makes the core use. I can't. Worse, the same problem applies to most of the XUL/XBL/JS core. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: firefox for mobiles
Bradley Hook wrote: That said, the full blown browser would be an awfully hefty app to put on a phone, and the minimo browser is currently targeting windows portables. Why not go with something with a tiny footprint, time-tested and proven lynx anyone? i would prefer w3m or some other with image capability... but then i have not used lynx in ages... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: firefox for mobiles
For the same reason I use open office instead of vi. Lynx is far from capable. Even with tuning, FF is a dastard piggy. I've tested things with FF. Start it with no history, no recovered session. Load up digg.com and do nothing. Just let it sit there. It will sit there and slowly grow and grow and grow. The caching isn't the problem, that's tunable. The problem is the memory leaks -- all the valgrind reports turned into moz teams (and ignored). Unless the current mozilla paradigm is changed, putting a moz product on a cellphone is not just asking but demanding people reboot their phones very often. I put minimo on my cellphone and I know once I use minimo, I can use my phone for about 12 hours or less before it gets so sluggish that I have to pull the battery out to reboot it because it won't respond to the power button any more. If I manage to get to the task list and kill minimo, it gets snappy again instantly. Mozilla are a great group of people and ideas and I've been very impressed with all the things that have been accomplished. Unfortunately pretty much everyone racing to eclipse them with browsers that are far faster, more W3C compliant, and just overall better at things. Mozilla seem intent on stagnating. Serious bugs (design flaws) that have been around for years are dismissed as there isn't a right way to do it. Like fixed position background images and page scrolling. Alpha blending - transparent images with a background. Turns powerhouse desktop browsing into a horridly choppy stalling experience. I just can't envision Mozilla building a useful product for smart phones whether it's the Neo or any other phone. The neo is far from being a powerhouse device and sadly the M$ browser engine is far more capable and blindingly faster than minimo is. Bradley Hook wrote: While FF does have a fairly large footprint, I've never had these kinds of memory consumption problems. I generally leave my FF sessions open for days or weeks at home, and I simultaneously load 3D games, OOo, graphics apps, and other stuff without ever having trouble with memory (granted I do have 2GB). However, even the large memory footprint that I do see has an explanation, and can be tuned by tweaking about:config. By default, FF caches every page loaded on every tab for that sessions. If you consider a geek's multi-day surfing session, that is a lot of data to cache, and the cache data also can't be compressed. Since the primary target of FF is the average user -- which has several short surfing sessions and usually closes the browser between sessions -- the default settings make sense. If this is not your surfing style, then change your settings. That said, the full blown browser would be an awfully hefty app to put on a phone, and the minimo browser is currently targeting windows portables. Why not go with something with a tiny footprint, time-tested and proven lynx anyone? ~Bradley ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
firefox for mobiles
yowza! Looks like our favorite Web browser is about to go mobile. Mozilla head honcho, Mitchell Baker, told the folks at APC magazine that Mozilla is working on a Firefox to go for your cellphone. It's a long-term project (meaning it's not coming out any time soon), but the goal is to allow it to work with all the add-ons and plug-ins that the full version works with. link to short story with link to full story below -- Forwarded message -- From: Craig Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: SVHMPC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [SVHMPC] Hot dang http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/firefox-to-go/mozilla-prepping-a-mobile-firefox-browser-259491.php ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: firefox for mobiles
If it's anything like mozilla/firefox now, we're gonna need a hefty battery, hugely more cpu, and about 1G of ram onboard. I used to love FF, now it's just a cpu/ram hog that usually gets killed by the kernel every 36-48 hours for taking about 2G of ram. The mozilla team needs to figure out how to slim down in a huge way before putting moz on a fone. Minimo is a good idea but very very slow and quickly eats up all the ram on a phone. Great idea, very bad implementation, and for some reason I still prefer it over other browsers. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yowza! Looks like our favorite Web browser is about to go mobile. Mozilla head honcho, Mitchell Baker, told the folks at APC magazine that Mozilla is working on a Firefox to go for your cellphone. It's a long-term project (meaning it's not coming out any time soon), but the goal is to allow it to work with all the add-ons and plug-ins that the full version works with. link to short story with link to full story below -- Forwarded message -- From: Craig Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: SVHMPC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [SVHMPC] Hot dang http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/firefox-to-go/mozilla-prepping-a-mobile-firefox-browser-259491.php ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
