Re: freerunner: charging and usb-host mutually exclusive?
Nice. So you'll only need a special cable do be able go charge and usb-host at the same time? As this cable is a custom one, might be an interesting addition to the openmoko store that was being discussed on some other thread, so hardware-challenged people like me can purchase it. Ivo On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 5:11 AM, Brad Midgley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: thanks joerg I've tried to write this up as succinctly as I can. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware#USB_Host In the end this means: the 47k ID-R should be in the Y-adapter, and you may use arbitrary usb-chargers (1A) with it for quick-charge. However the OM-charger will most probably have an own 47k, so you can use it without the Y-adapter. -- Brad ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: freerunner: charging and usb-host mutually exclusive?
I think this cable must be included in the basic packaging!!!( well in the advance packaging at last) If you can plug at time in dc power and usb periphals whith a usb hub and a keyboard (it can be bluetooth or usb!!) you can convert in few seconds a mobile phone in a mini ultraportable desktop computer you can carry any where in your pocket !!! --- Ivo Anjo [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: Nice. So you'll only need a special cable do be able go charge and usb-host at the same time? As this cable is a custom one, might be an interesting addition to the openmoko store that was being discussed on some other thread, so hardware-challenged people like me can purchase it. Ivo On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 5:11 AM, Brad Midgley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: thanks joerg I've tried to write this up as succinctly as I can. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware#USB_Host In the end this means: the 47k ID-R should be in the Y-adapter, and you may use arbitrary usb-chargers (1A) with it for quick-charge. However the OM-charger will most probably have an own 47k, so you can use it without the Y-adapter. -- Brad ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community __ Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! El correo favorito de los internautas. http://es.docs.yahoo.com/mail/overview/index.html ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: freerunner: charging and usb-host mutually exclusive?
Andy Currently the pump that provides 5V for the external device is enabled whenever we are in host mode. I don't know what that thing will do if we provide 5V externally too, probably it will be okay but it needs testing. You wrote currently. Does that mean with a software change we might turn off the pump and reenable charging while in host mode? -- Brad ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: freerunner: charging and usb-host mutually exclusive?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: Andy Currently the pump that provides 5V for the external device is enabled whenever we are in host mode. I don't know what that thing will do if we provide 5V externally too, probably it will be okay but it needs testing. You wrote currently. Does that mean with a software change we might turn off the pump and reenable charging while in host mode? The situation is that there is only one bit that controls if we are physically in host mode (this bit comes out of a PMU GPIO and can be controlled by the CPU). That same level is used to both enable the pump and to enable 15K pulldowns on USB D+ and D-. So the fate of the 5V generation and these pulldowns is one and the same, both active or neither active. A nice solution would be if the pump reacted well to getting external 5V shoved on it, I will try this later tonight. If it is okay you can just give it 5V externally and the pump will just idle. If it isn't okay, That Would Be Bad (TM). Otherwise, the job of the 15K pulldowns in host mode is to detect if you have a low speed or high speed device insertion. I don't know how we can detect insertions in a good way if we turned off the pulldowns and pump, despite we did provide 5V for the USB device without the pulldowns it won't see the insertion. I guess you could add 15K pulldowns permanently if you knew you would only use it in externally-powered-host mode but it is a bit sucky. So we must do the test to find out where we are. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH1r44OjLpvpq7dMoRApzFAJ0UM4K3+oNGAxw4or0b6hiOz6SYlQCeIlq/ qKtJqJuUnrd5UE77qoii/Qw= =4W79 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: freerunner: charging and usb-host mutually exclusive?
Andy So we must do the test to find out where we are. Interesting stuff. The test result may also vary based on whether the external voltage is a little higher or lower than what comes out of the pump. -- Brad ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: freerunner: charging and usb-host mutually exclusive?
Hi Andy! Am Di 11. März 2008 schrieb Andy Green: - gpg control packet Somebody in the thread at some point said: Andy Currently the pump that provides 5V for the external device is enabled whenever we are in host mode. I don't know what that thing will do if we provide 5V externally too, probably it will be okay but it needs testing. You wrote currently. Does that mean with a software change we might turn off the pump and reenable charging while in host mode? The situation is that there is only one bit that controls if we are physically in host mode (this bit comes out of a PMU GPIO and can be controlled by the CPU). This bit not only controls the power pump and pulldown, but also the U4905 RT9711BPB power switch for _inbound_ power supply. So for the given hw-design, there's no way to have the GTA02 powered from outside (this is the point!) while in hw-hostmode. That same level is used to both enable the pump and to enable 15K pulldowns on USB D+ and D-. So the fate of the 5V generation and these pulldowns is one and the same, both active or neither active. A nice solution would be if the pump reacted well to getting external 5V shoved on it, I will try this later tonight. If it is okay you can just give it 5V externally and the pump will just idle. If it isn't okay, That Would Be Bad (TM). Otherwise, the job of the 15K pulldowns in host mode is to detect if you have a low speed or high speed device insertion. I don't know how we can detect insertions in a good way if we turned off the pulldowns and pump, despite we did provide 5V for the USB device without the pulldowns it won't see the insertion. I guess you could add 15K pulldowns permanently if you knew you would only use it in externally-powered-host mode but it is a bit sucky. Well, i understand you suggest to detect insertion of usb-device and high speed mode while pulldown on, and then (triggered by some user interaction - for we just can't detect the power reverse feed, that is if pump won't smoke) switch EN_USBHOST GPIO to disable pump (and pulldown) and enable charging/powering the GTA02 via RT9711BPB PMU, while still keeping logical hostmode for the interface. Right? I'm not sure what the external device will say when pulldown is disabled. And i don't know what is the suggested way to detect plugoff of device in this mode, maybe loss of external usb power detected by PMU? Anyway not having external power at all while in logical hostmode seems to be a nogo. This has to be solved somehow. BTW: all this might be a lot easier with a simple coax type power connector for feeding PMU *external_charger* path by a simple classic nokia style wall wart - no 1A-usbmode smoking up external host, no 47k-R for charger-ID, no special OM-charger... just an additional coax connector and a hole in the case. Sigh. So we must do the test to find out where we are. I'm sure the pump won't care, but that's not the point. jOERG ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: freerunner: charging and usb-host mutually exclusive?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: Hi Andy! Am Di 11. März 2008 schrieb Andy Green: - gpg control packet Somebody in the thread at some point said: Andy Currently the pump that provides 5V for the external device is enabled whenever we are in host mode. I don't know what that thing will do if we provide 5V externally too, probably it will be okay but it needs testing. You wrote currently. Does that mean with a software change we might turn off the pump and reenable charging while in host mode? The situation is that there is only one bit that controls if we are physically in host mode (this bit comes out of a PMU GPIO and can be controlled by the CPU). This bit not only controls the power pump and pulldown, but also the U4905 RT9711BPB power switch for _inbound_ power supply. So for the given hw-design, there's no way to have the GTA02 powered from outside (this is the point!) while in hw-hostmode. WAH missed U4905, you are quite right Joerg :-( it won't see the insertion. I guess you could add 15K pulldowns permanently if you knew you would only use it in externally-powered-host mode but it is a bit sucky. Well, i understand you suggest to detect insertion of usb-device and high speed mode while pulldown on, and then (triggered by some user interaction - for we just can't detect the power reverse feed, that is if pump won't smoke) switch EN_USBHOST GPIO to disable pump (and pulldown) and enable charging/powering the GTA02 via RT9711BPB PMU, while still keeping logical hostmode for the interface. Right? No, I was just noting you could put the CPU peripheral logic into host mode but leave the EN_USBHOST signal low. Then you could add 15K pulldowns as a hack, and it would all work. But it is a bit of a mess and would then only work in this externally powered host mode. Anyway not having external power at all while in logical hostmode seems to be a nogo. This has to be solved somehow. Too late I think :-/ BTW: all this might be a lot easier with a simple coax type power connector for feeding PMU *external_charger* path by a simple classic nokia style wall Wah dude it is great hearing from you :-) You're catching my errors and you read the datasheet :-))) That's right the PMU adapter path is unused. So we must do the test to find out where we are. I'm sure the pump won't care, but that's not the point. Yeah the pump didn't care. But your observation about U4905 explains why HDQ reported no charging with EN_USBHOST asserted... it wasn't because the battery suddenly became full :-(( - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH1vJ9OjLpvpq7dMoRAk8xAJ9zaXZjwyPSqYipa+6JBqI50bLrRACgk7fT 6vtKy8kgigtn+0qDzY4Y1zA= =ovvQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: freerunner: charging and usb-host mutually exclusive?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: No, I was just noting you could put the CPU peripheral logic into host mode but leave the EN_USBHOST signal low. Then you could add 15K pulldowns as a hack, and it would all work. But it is a bit of a mess and would then only work in this externally powered host mode. Ha, actually that's not true, I just enabled EN_USBHOST, which does nothing about the CPU peripehral mode for USB right now -- but it does enable the 15K pulldowns -- and the thing still works as an Ethernet class device including insertion detection on the remote host. So if you added a pair of 15K pulldowns to D- and D+ yourself (there are testpoints), and took care to not enable EN_USBHOST but have the CPU peripheral in host mode, you should be good to go as an externally powered host, including charging, and the same setup can work on at least some hosts as a device, despite we pull down by 7.5K when the host pulldowns get in on the game as well. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH1vabOjLpvpq7dMoRAnxXAJsFEO3kFWVdCCaHtLcZJVv7eY/d8gCcC8CD 3E1CK1SSMcf6H7tuw1+eBT8= =FXQP -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: freerunner: charging and usb-host mutually exclusive?
Am Di 11. März 2008 schrieb Andy Green: - gpg control packet Somebody in the thread at some point said: No, I was just noting you could put the CPU peripheral logic into host mode but leave the EN_USBHOST signal low. Then you could add 15K pulldowns as a hack, and it would all work. But it is a bit of a mess and would then only work in this externally powered host mode. Ha, actually that's not true, I just enabled EN_USBHOST, which does nothing about the CPU peripehral mode for USB right now -- but it does enable the 15K pulldowns -- and the thing still works as an Ethernet class device including insertion detection on the remote host. So if you added a pair of 15K pulldowns to D- and D+ yourself (there are testpoints), and took care to not enable EN_USBHOST but have the CPU peripheral in host mode, you should be good to go as an externally powered host, including charging, and the same setup can work on at least some hosts as a device, despite we pull down by 7.5K when the host pulldowns get in on the game as well. Ah, i see a Y-adapter: one end usb-device, one end receptable for usb charger, one end GTA02 *with ID-R of e.g 82k* PLUS *2 x 15k pulldown*. And GTA02 automatically switching to external powered host mode. :-) This was on the list of accessories from the beginning, wasn't it? ;-) humm, on 2nd thought, nothing bad will happen when this mode will check for 47k instead of 82k. What's about this? j ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: freerunner: charging and usb-host mutually exclusive?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: Ah, i see a Y-adapter: one end usb-device, one end receptable for usb charger, one end GTA02 *with ID-R of e.g 82k* PLUS *2 x 15k pulldown*. And GTA02 automatically switching to external powered host mode. :-) This was on the list of accessories from the beginning, wasn't it? ;-) Yes it sounds like a good solution, it probably doesn't make trouble to have 7.5K pulldown total in device mode either. I dunno if Openmoko are interested to make it but anyone that wants host with external charging power can hack it up from their spare cable box without opening the phone, that is miles ahead of where we were a couple of hours ago. humm, on 2nd thought, nothing bad will happen when this mode will check for 47k instead of 82k. Yes we need to react to seeing the 1A charger ID resistor by deasserting EN_USBHOST for sure, that is right if it is just the charger or it is the external power host mode adapter. We didn't take care about it until now, I will make a patch. What's about this? GOOD!!! - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH1wL8OjLpvpq7dMoRAprxAJ9CHnMw5xj1YueNpcOGSdw130vSzwCghYxv sfK24is17XmHHF+JjleIPfk= =8vtP -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: freerunner: charging and usb-host mutually exclusive?
joerg, Ah, i see a Y-adapter: one end usb-device, one end receptable for usb charger, one end GTA02 *with ID-R of e.g 82k* PLUS *2 x 15k pulldown*. And GTA02 automatically switching to external powered host mode. :-) This was on the list of accessories from the beginning, wasn't it? ;-) humm, on 2nd thought, nothing bad will happen when this mode will check for 47k instead of 82k. I want to make sure (as long as it's not premature) that we capture this in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware I can follow the need for pulldowns on d+/d- but where did 82k come from? How does your comment about 47k fit in? -- Brad ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: freerunner: charging and usb-host mutually exclusive?
Am Mi 12. März 2008 schrieb Brad Midgley: joerg, Ah, i see a Y-adapter: one end usb-device, one end receptable for usb charger, one end GTA02 *with ID-R of e.g 82k* PLUS *2 x 15k pulldown*. And GTA02 automatically switching to external powered host mode. :-) This was on the list of accessories from the beginning, wasn't it? ;-) humm, on 2nd thought, nothing bad will happen when this mode will check for 47k instead of 82k. I want to make sure (as long as it's not premature) that we capture this in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware I can follow the need for pulldowns on d+/d- but where did 82k come from? How does your comment about 47k fit in? 82k was just a fantasy-value i introduced to identify the jr(C)-Y-adapter. There's a 47k (from usb-id to GND) specified for identifying the OM-fastcharge-usb-adapter, to enable 500mA USB supply handling for turbo-charge (see my post here in this list some days ago, as well as wiki/charger something) However there's no need at all to identify the Y-adapter by it's own 82k value, it's just fine to switch to hostext-power mode whenever NEO sees the 47k in ID-pin, which is specified for GTA02 aka Freerunner usb-charger. If there is 47k, it's either the plain charger (= no device and no real usb at all, ext-power hostmode won't hurt), or we have charger PLUS Y-adapter, which is fine for external powered hostmode, which means you can connect devices to NEO-host and still supply power to these devices (about 1,5A for Freerunner's 2,5A charger) AND the NEO (about 1A for Freerunner's 2,5A charger) via charger. In the end this means: the 47k ID-R should be in the Y-adapter, and you may use arbitrary usb-chargers (1A) with it for quick-charge. However the OM-charger will most probably have an own 47k, so you can use it without the Y-adapter. Whenever Y-adapter or OM-charger is connected, Freerunner enters externally powered USB-host mode and starts quick charge. On device end of Y-adapter you may use an unpowered USB-hub, which is powered via charger and usb. Once i see a wiki page, i might eventually provide a (however trivial) circuit diagram, as soon as i reanimate my eagle layout suite underneath the dust if 7 years ;-) Premature? It's clean, just missing the (kernel)patch to handle 47k detection and switching to ext-powered host mode automatically. Andy said he will provide the patch. I'm quite sure these hw-details won't change for GTA02 Mass Production. I'll start tomorrow to sell these jr-Y-adaptors for 19,95€ + shipping ;-) cheers jOERG ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: freerunner: charging and usb-host mutually exclusive?
thanks joerg I've tried to write this up as succinctly as I can. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware#USB_Host In the end this means: the 47k ID-R should be in the Y-adapter, and you may use arbitrary usb-chargers (1A) with it for quick-charge. However the OM-charger will most probably have an own 47k, so you can use it without the Y-adapter. -- Brad ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: freerunner: charging and usb-host mutually exclusive?
I think this is a very good observation. If you want to connect a neo to some usb device(s) for long periods of time it would be very important to be able to charge it (otherwise it will just run dry very fast). Anyone know if you can? Ivo On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 12:03 AM, Brad Midgley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey My neo can run in host mode at the same time it's charging, using a Y cable or a hardware hack (*). Can this still be done with freerunner? It will provide power to a usb slave so it may not be prepared to get juice in at the same time. * eg http://chockerblockablog.blogspot.com/2008/03/neo1973-no-wifi3gbattery-life-no.html -- Brad ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: freerunner: charging and usb-host mutually exclusive?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: I think this is a very good observation. If you want to connect a neo to some usb device(s) for long periods of time it would be very important to be able to charge it (otherwise it will just run dry very fast). Anyone know if you can? Yes, it won't charge that fast, but it will fully power itself from the USB connection AND charge the battery... it means 200-300mA gets to the battery. You get the best charging performance from the external charger which I am pretty sure is part of the package that can provide 1A of which ~700mA goes to the battery. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH1Yd9OjLpvpq7dMoRAiQsAJwM1/WKXtsg29J4j4q7O1QTJMVuvQCeNOik g9/KalobCdpaQtgu9evpdZY= =RzSZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: freerunner: charging and usb-host mutually exclusive?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: Somebody in the thread at some point said: I think this is a very good observation. If you want to connect a neo to some usb device(s) for long periods of time it would be very important to be able to charge it (otherwise it will just run dry very fast). Anyone know if you can? Yes, it won't charge that fast, but it will fully power itself from the USB connection AND charge the battery... it means 200-300mA gets to the battery. You get the best charging performance from the external charger which I am pretty sure is part of the package that can provide 1A of which ~700mA goes to the battery. Wah... totally got the wrong end of the stick :-/ You're asking about host mode. Currently the pump that provides 5V for the external device is enabled whenever we are in host mode. I don't know what that thing will do if we provide 5V externally too, probably it will be okay but it needs testing. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH1YgOOjLpvpq7dMoRAuTnAKCMnVo/iDbfV+AEqVvxqXmU1yVmrwCeLxbO 3TVel+njdhpHkAjCTXwQpjk= =EBxK -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
freerunner: charging and usb-host mutually exclusive?
Hey My neo can run in host mode at the same time it's charging, using a Y cable or a hardware hack (*). Can this still be done with freerunner? It will provide power to a usb slave so it may not be prepared to get juice in at the same time. * eg http://chockerblockablog.blogspot.com/2008/03/neo1973-no-wifi3gbattery-life-no.html -- Brad ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
