Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)
Fwiw, my take on that is @ http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2008/06/28/gtk-asu-fso-tmtla/ Cheers, -- :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)
-[ Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 08:25:04AM +0200, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer ] http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2008/06/28/gtk-asu-fso-tmtla/ Interresting. Why not post this kind of though here instead of on a blog, BTW ? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)
On 28 Jun 2008, at 03:05, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 22:11:06 +0100 Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On 27 Jun 2008, at 19:01, Ron K. Jeffries wrote: Can someone explain the rationale for the decision to switch from the original GTK based OpenMoko to QT based version known as April Software Update (ASU)? Rasterman is the rationale, as far as I can make out. i had nothing to do with it. i, in fact suggested to keep the current gtk apps as-is I apologise. It just seemed that this change occurred without explanation when you came on board. A message you posted some time ago evangelising E16 (??) firmed the impression that the new environment was your innovation. just improve the desktop environment. others at openmoko insisted even on just qtopia - no x11. they wanted qtopia because for them it worked. we ended up with a compromise of a port of qtopia on x11 - but then also needing a custom wm. I have to say that I find it a bit odd running X11 on a mobile phone - a WM wouldn't be required without it - when an alternative is possible. In fact, as far as I can ascertain an alternative already exists. X11 seems logical to me for desktop computers, but not for a device which will only ever have one main window on the screen at a time. I had mistakenly understood earlier Openmoko builds to be non- X11 (i.e. qtopia-ish?) Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)
Thanks, This is the most to the point explenation that I have read so far! If I could code, I would try help you on the FSO. On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 8:25 AM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fwiw, my take on that is @ http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2008/06/28/gtk-asu-fso-tmtla/ Cheers, -- :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)
On Saturday June 28, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have to say that I find it a bit odd running X11 on a mobile phone - a WM wouldn't be required without it - when an alternative is possible. In fact, as far as I can ascertain an alternative already exists. X11 seems logical to me for desktop computers, but not for a device which will only ever have one main window on the screen at a time. I had mistakenly understood earlier Openmoko builds to be non- X11 (i.e. qtopia-ish?) Saying we don't need X11 because we only have one window is a bit like we don't need a multitasking operating system, because we only have one user. It just isn't that simple. If all that X11 does for us is to allow switching between concurrently running programs, written against different toolkits, then that is a very useful thing. I would hate for someone to be turned of writing an app for Openmoko because the toolkit they liked wasn't supported, so I think it is very important to support qt and gtk (and tk and ...). The only way to support multiple toolkits today is with an X11 server. X11 allows freedom of toolkit choice, and freedom is what we are all about. NeilBrown ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)
Ron - I think a lot of people hate QT so much that they don't even see anymore that GTK+ still lives and grows as before! Yes, we brought Qt/Qtopia into Openmoko, on top of X so it can co- exist with GTK+ and EFL. There never has been a 'GTK+ stack'. What is a 'GTK+ stack'? Hopefully the GTK+ telephony applications can be connected to Mickey's new framework, as roh suggested yesterday. Hopefully all the work raster does will lead to great new EFL-based applications. Edje looks very interesting. Qtopia provides everybody with another option to do telephony. Some people may dislike it, well they can ignore it and continue with GTK+ instead. OpenEmbedded is what holds Openmoko together, and there will always be lots of images. If anybody expects Openmoko to force a certain API upon its users, you are wrong! WinMobile may be forcing some APIs as 'default' APIs upon you, so does Symbian, iPhone, etc. Openmoko won't. GTK+ is not Openmoko's official/default graphical toolkit, never was and never will be. Openmoko's mission is not to teach the world how great GTK+ is. If GTK+ is good, great GTK+ applications will emerge, and usage of GTK+ will grow. This can be driven by YOU as much as by the few full-time Openmoko employees. Please help us improving our GTK + applications today! Right now there is a lot of momentum behind EFL/Edje at Openmoko, some of the new applications we are developing (Assassin, Exposure, Splinter) are based on that. If you think we are switching to QT - why are we then developing our new applications using EFL? Hope this provides some background information. Answering your questions: Can someone explain the rationale for the decision to switch from the original GTK based OpenMoko to QT based version known as April Software Update (ASU)? No switch. QTopia looked interesting because it gives us a fully functioning set of telephony applications, Trolltech GPL'ed it, and we didn't like the fact that the only way to get access to it was via the framebuffer- based builds Trolltech was distributing. We wanted to have QTopia functionality on top of X, so it could co-exist with GTK+ and EFL, i.e. so that GTK+ applications (tangoGPS and others) would _NOT_ be pushed aside by Qtopia. Our main direction is not QT, it's EFL. As an observer, it's my impression that ASU represents a significant architectural change that somehow, Wham! Bang! just happened. Wrong. Qtopia on framebuffer, pushing all GTK+ work aside, would have been a major architectural change. Our change is very minor, we just port Qtopia on top of X so it becomes another option. Actually replacing matchbox with the Enlightenment window manager was a bigger architectural change, ask raster about that. I do admit that we have underestimated the degree of antipathy against Qtopia that led people to stop listening as soon as they heard the word 'Qtopia' or 'Trolltech'. :-) Best Regards, Wolfgang On Jun 27, 2008, at 8:01 PM, Ron K. Jeffries wrote: Can someone explain the rationale for the decision to switch from the original GTK based OpenMoko to QT based version known as April Software Update (ASU)? As an observer, it's my impression that ASU represents a significant architectural change that somehow, Wham! Bang! just happened. Transparency is a virtue. g Ron K. Jeffries http://www.retaggr.com/Card/rjeffries ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)
Michael 'Mickey' Lauer writes: Fwiw, my take on that is @ http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2008/06/28/gtk-asu-fso-tmtla/ Very good summary -- I'd really like to see the 2007.2 stack on top of FSO... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)
On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 10:41:43 +0100 Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On 28 Jun 2008, at 03:05, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 22:11:06 +0100 Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On 27 Jun 2008, at 19:01, Ron K. Jeffries wrote: Can someone explain the rationale for the decision to switch from the original GTK based OpenMoko to QT based version known as April Software Update (ASU)? Rasterman is the rationale, as far as I can make out. i had nothing to do with it. i, in fact suggested to keep the current gtk apps as-is I apologise. It just seemed that this change occurred without explanation when you came on board. A message you posted some time ago evangelising E16 (??) firmed the impression that the new environment was your innovation. i said nothing of e16 - e17 is a wm. it can replace matchbox - and also take over the today screen and launcher all in one. it's got that rolled into 1 compact process. i would be more than happy keeping the gtk dialler, address book, browser, etc. etc. if people wish to replace these with efl or qt etc. is entirely their business. i'm agnostic there. personally i'd go for the most core apps (dialler, address book, sms read/edit) being built into the wm as modules (for sheer efficiency/speed. this way calling someone or answering a call is instantly available and shares resources with your current desktop environment directly thus is small and very efficient), but everything else being a process that is run when/if needed. use whatever toolkit tickles your fancy. just improve the desktop environment. others at openmoko insisted even on just qtopia - no x11. they wanted qtopia because for them it worked. we ended up with a compromise of a port of qtopia on x11 - but then also needing a custom wm. I have to say that I find it a bit odd running X11 on a mobile phone i'td odd because you're just not used to it, but as such the phone is just fine a place to run it. it is what arbitrates access to the graphics subsystem, display and input devices. it's nothing more than a well known and built-on way to share a hardware resource. using anything else will end up with you just re-inventing the lower-level x11 layer anyway. - a WM wouldn't be required without it - when an alternative is possible. In fact, as far as I can ascertain an alternative already exists. X11 seems logical to me for desktop computers, but not for a device which will only ever have one main window on the screen at a time. I had mistakenly understood earlier Openmoko builds to be non- X11 (i.e. qtopia-ish?) incorrect. the earlier builds have always been x11 + wm + gtk. the only thing i felt could be improved was replacing the minimalist wm (matchbox) that itself did pretty much nothing, and then the panel and launcher/today screen with e as it could do most of this already in 1 process and is extendible with modules to modify placement policy etc. as such your screen has MULTIPLE windows and processes already. every dialog box that pops up is a new window. in qtopia the back/options thing on the bottom is a separate window to the app - handled by the qpe desktop process. illume (module for e) has special placement policy code to handle that feature of qtopia. invariably those that do not understand x11 and like to plot its downfall are invariably doomed to re-invent it (in the end), instead of just build on it. let me give an example of where you WANT a wm and WANT to use x11 (long-term) on phones. take a 3.2 or 3.5 screen. imagine you divide it. the top part is a status panel (this is... gasp! a window! it may be a process of its own or part of another). then you have your current app window - and imagine at the bottom you place a side app. eg - mp3 or media player. so while i am writing an sms to my gramdother, my mp3 player is pumping out tunes, but the CONTROLS and STATUS are there - in the player window at the bottom of my screen. i don't like the track - quickly hit next, without flipping away from my sms editing. wm handles the layout policy and squeezing windows into the available screen when/if needed. the bottom doesn't need to be the mp3 player. it could be my irc session - with my friends, always going, but the top is my today screen or sms editor or dialler or web browser, so i'm watching whats going on in #openmoko while doing something else, without having to flip away. yes - this isn't happening now and a 2.8 screen is a tad too small, but the point is to think beyond just what we have now and into what could be possible, what people might want to do. design into the future and allow for it, not design so doing it is hard or impossible or requires major re-works and porting efforts. x11 on a phone makes a lot of sense. the xserver is the arbitrator for screen and input device access. the wm/desktop implements policy (how to lay things out and all the other things
Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)
I think a lot of people hate QT so much that they don't even see anymore that GTK+ still lives and grows as before! excuse me, but why would one _hate_ qt/qtopia? not being their toolkit of choice, ok. not liking the visual apperance or the way one programs with it, ok. but hate? what poor *** has one to be to _hate_ some lines of innocent code? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)
Perfect. Take the existing GTK apps. make your perfect phone. I will sell you phones At a huge discount and you can make money based on your belief and expertise in GTK+. You buy phones from me, you add your software, you resell. Make money off your passion For GTK+. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Esben Stien Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 6:58 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt) Ron K. Jeffries [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: the rationale for the decision to switch from the original GTK based OpenMoko There will be a fork here at one point. There's a good bunch of us who wants a standard GTK+ environment as the main guis' for the phone. There's even some that don't want any QT on the phone, at all;). I just hope that the existing applications has been properly engineered, separating the core from the UI (MVC, three tier, PCMEF) so that it's just a matter of speaking a common protocol. -- Esben Stien is [EMAIL PROTECTED] s a http://www. s tn m irc://irc. b - i . e/%23contact sip:b0ef@ e e jid:b0ef@n n ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)
Can someone explain the rationale for the decision to switch from the original GTK based OpenMoko to QT based version known as April Software Update (ASU)? As an observer, it's my impression that ASU represents a significant architectural change that somehow, Wham! Bang! just happened. Transparency is a virtue. g Ron K. Jeffries http://www.retaggr.com/Card/rjeffries ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)
This has been done to death on the mailing list already. The archives lists it. Can we move on now please? On Fri, 27 Jun 2008, Ron K. Jeffries wrote: Can someone explain the rationale for the decision to switch from the original GTK based OpenMoko to QT based version known as April Software Update (ASU)? As an observer, it's my impression that ASU represents a significant architectural change that somehow, Wham! Bang! just happened. Transparency is a virtue. g Ron K. Jeffries http://www.retaggr.com/Card/rjeffries ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)
http://gettingstartedopenmoko.wordpress.com/2008/05/19/openmoko-software-update On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 2:01 PM, Ron K. Jeffries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone explain the rationale for the decision to switch from the original GTK based OpenMoko to QT based version known as April Software Update (ASU)? As an observer, it's my impression that ASU represents a significant architectural change that somehow, Wham! Bang! just happened. Transparency is a virtue. g Ron K. Jeffries http://www.retaggr.com/Card/rjeffries ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)
On 27 Jun 2008, at 19:01, Ron K. Jeffries wrote: Can someone explain the rationale for the decision to switch from the original GTK based OpenMoko to QT based version known as April Software Update (ASU)? Rasterman is the rationale, as far as I can make out. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)
Ron K. Jeffries [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: the rationale for the decision to switch from the original GTK based OpenMoko There will be a fork here at one point. There's a good bunch of us who wants a standard GTK+ environment as the main guis' for the phone. There's even some that don't want any QT on the phone, at all;). I just hope that the existing applications has been properly engineered, separating the core from the UI (MVC, three tier, PCMEF) so that it's just a matter of speaking a common protocol. -- Esben Stien is [EMAIL PROTECTED] s a http://www. s tn m irc://irc. b - i . e/%23contact sip:b0ef@ e e jid:b0ef@n n ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)
Esben Stien wrote: Ron K. Jeffries [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: the rationale for the decision to switch from the original GTK based OpenMoko its not really switching from gtk to something. gtk is still included and supported. there is 'just' no app which uses it in some of the images by default. the real change was from everything gtk to 'a mixture of libs which get used for what they're good at e-foo for custom-ui and qt-foo because its gsm-middleware works for now till the FSO is 'complete' and 'some people like it' (qt).. also some people 'like gtk'. linux on the desktop would never have been as big as it is now when there would not have been gtk AND qt. gnome AND kde. its not a total friendship everywhere, but also not a enmity. its something which makes both parties want the same thing, but try different ways. who follows which way doesnt matter, aslong as both want the same thing: write some app. in the end its an evolutionary process to better, free software (atleast on the idealistic side ;). so: gtk is still there and fully supported in openmoko. just install some app like tango-gps. its gtk and should 'just work' There will be a fork here at one point. There's a good bunch of us who wants a standard GTK+ environment as the main guis' for the phone. There's even some that don't want any QT on the phone, at all;). i can understand that. but there is no need to fork. just submit patches. we do not bite. on the contrary. I just hope that the existing applications has been properly engineered, separating the core from the UI (MVC, three tier, PCMEF) so that it's just a matter of speaking a common protocol. me too ;) that would revamping them to fso middleware easier. kind regards -- Joachim Steiger Openmoko Central Services ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)
Whatever the environment is, IMHO it should be coherent over all. Obviously the ideal solution would be indistinguishable QT or GTK apps, somehow like the gtk-qt theme acts in kde to hide the differences from qt apps to gtk. However file selectors, for instance, keep being different, spoiling the consistence of the experience. As I am not sure if making qtopia and gtk functionally equal is even possible, I'm all for a dual stack, somehow similar to the new framework vision. Below dbus, a single set of apps and *most important* apis share everybody's efforts to make the phone plainly *work*. Suspend issues, gsm, etc. Above, however, I'd fight for consistency over development freedom. I find a usable phone quite more important than a usable desktop (perhaps for being used to windows and half-broken linuxes to be used to find quirks), and for that you need consistency among a lot of other things. It's not just that the applications look different (such as QT vs GTK), it's that they act subtly different (file selectors, but also focus policies configured in different places, cut and paste behaviour, etc etc), which drives mad the user as he can't figure out the expected result of his actions. To give two examples, I'd say the series 60 nokia phones are quite well designed in that respect. I've been using them since 7650, I've gone through 3 different models, and all of them acted *exactly* the same. Copy / paste through all the applications, same *keyboard shortcuts* (quite important when you get faster), for instance in the menu, same way of switching apps, same contact manager or sms (which is far from perfect BTW, as I don't get along too well with the metaphore of everything goes to the inbox), same integration of all the apps between theirselves (send - via bluetooth, via sms, via MMS, mentioned copy paste, input methods -though dictionary should be present as well in single text fields-, etc). And, for me, old B/W series 40 are just perfect in that regard. When you get used to one other phones seem just *clunky* and unbearably *slow* and twitchy. And the same happened to me with the ipod (3G), which I believe it's a big part of its success. Only way to get this kind of consistency would be having full integrated sw stacks, not mixing GTK and QT, and of course working a lot on those boring usability issues :P. That's why I'm all for a dual stack, independent: if contacts, sms, etc. are shared between them (sounds difficult though), switching would be a similar matter as booting GNOME or KDE. Just a matter of taste... And although in KDE I usually open firefox (to get my passwords and extensions), and in GNOME I burn with k3b, appart from that you can get a very consistent and predictable experience in both. I vow for the same ways in openmoko... Worst for me would be the 8-years-ago linux experience: lots of incomplete and inconsistent apps, unpredictable behaviour while mixing, etc. Let's hope it doesn't take so long for us. And sorry for these long emails, while studying I tend to get distracted and --verbose :P. --- El sáb, 28/6/08, Esben Stien [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: De: Esben Stien [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt) Para: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Fecha: sábado, 28 junio, 2008 3:58 Ron K. Jeffries [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: the rationale for the decision to switch from the original GTK based OpenMoko There will be a fork here at one point. There's a good bunch of us who wants a standard GTK+ environment as the main guis' for the phone. There's even some that don't want any QT on the phone, at all;). I just hope that the existing applications has been properly engineered, separating the core from the UI (MVC, three tier, PCMEF) so that it's just a matter of speaking a common protocol. -- Esben Stien is [EMAIL PROTECTED] s a http://www. s tn m irc://irc. b - i . e/%23contact sip:b0ef@ e e jid:b0ef@n n ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community __ Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada más inteligente.___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)
On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 22:11:06 +0100 Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On 27 Jun 2008, at 19:01, Ron K. Jeffries wrote: Can someone explain the rationale for the decision to switch from the original GTK based OpenMoko to QT based version known as April Software Update (ASU)? Rasterman is the rationale, as far as I can make out. i had nothing to do with it. i, in fact suggested to keep the current gtk apps as-is just improve the desktop environment. others at openmoko insisted even on just qtopia - no x11. they wanted qtopia because for them it worked. we ended up with a compromise of a port of qtopia on x11 - but then also needing a custom wm. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)
Esben Stien writes: Ron K. Jeffries [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: the rationale for the decision to switch from the original GTK based OpenMoko There will be a fork here at one point. There's a good bunch of us who wants a standard GTK+ environment as the main guis' for the phone. There's even some that don't want any QT on the phone, at all;). Sounds good to me... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
