Re: uSD corruption (OT?)

[Boudewijn]

On Sunday 18 December 2011 09:39:10 Gilles Filippini wrote:
> Boudewijn a écrit , Le 17/12/2011 23:44:
> > You are probably familiar with/aware of linux-mtd at infradead.org. Part
> > of their FAQ made me suspect optimizations for FAT or parts of the spec
> > left out of the flash translation layer giving problems with anything
> > but FAT [1]: "(...) we suspect that vendors may user various tricks or
> > compromises to keep their devices "good enough" and cheap. For example,
> > it is known that some vendors optimize their FTL devices for FAT, and if
> > you start using ext3 on top of one, you might face some unexpected
> > problems (...)"
> > 
> > Not very constructive either :-( But a good read if you didn't after all
> > ;-)
> > 
> > Boudewijn
> > 
> > [1]
> 
> Missing link :)
Hmmm..  The "forgot attachment?"-plugin does not cover links ;-)

http://www.linux-mtd.infradead.org/doc/ubifs.html#L_raw_vs_ftl

> Here is another one [0]
> 
> _g.
> 
> [0] 
From the intro: "In contrast, the more common SD cards and USB flash drives 
are very sensitive to specific access patterns and can show very high 
latencies for writes unless they are used with the preformatted FAT32 file 
layout."

Thanks!

Boudewijn


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Re: uSD corruption (OT?)

[Gilles Filippini]

Boudewijn a écrit , Le 17/12/2011 23:44:
> You are probably familiar with/aware of linux-mtd at infradead.org. Part of 
> their FAQ made me suspect optimizations for FAT or parts of the spec left out 
> of the flash translation layer giving problems with anything but FAT [1]: 
> "(...) we suspect that vendors may user various tricks or compromises to keep 
> their devices "good enough" and cheap. For example, it is known that some 
> vendors optimize their FTL devices for FAT, and if you start using ext3 on 
> top 
> of one, you might face some unexpected problems (...)"
> 
> Not very constructive either :-( But a good read if you didn't after all ;-)
> 
> Boudewijn 
> 
> [1]

Missing link :)
Here is another one [0]

_g.

[0] 



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Re: uSD corruption (OT?)

[Boudewijn]

On Saturday 17 December 2011 23:10:02 Doug Jones wrote:
> On 12/16/2011 01:08 AM, Radek Polak wrote:
> > On Thursday 15 December 2011 22:00:22 fdvj...@vodafone.it wrote:
> >> Hi
> >> I have a Kingstone microSD card 8GB. It seems to be reliable for data
> >> but if I use it with a running distro, at this moment QtMoko, I
> >> experience, during a day of usage, several freezings. I mean, when it is
> >> in suspend mode (deep suspend enabled) if I press the power button the
> >> Neo does not recover from the suspend. I have to pull off the battery
> >> and then restart the Neo, but as can you imagine, after a couple of
> >> times the file system gets corrupted and I have to format the partition.
> >> Moreover this behaviour seems to become worse as the time passes.
> >> Should I consider to replace the uSD card? are there known issues in
> >> using running distro on it?
> >> Thanks.
> > 
> > For me uSD card never worked as stable rootfs. I always ended up with
> > corrupted filesystem after a couple of days. But for data on FAT it
> > always worked quite good.
> > 
> > I guess this is some flaw in Freerunner's hardware or kernel driver. On
> > GTA04 i have rootfs on uSD and no problems at all. I am starting to
> > think that NAND on GTA04 is quite useless - it would be quite cool if it
> > had 2 uSD cards instead (with BTRFS as fs it could rock).
> 
> There have been endless discussions over the years, about file systems,
> race conditions, suspend modes, the gravitational influence of
> Jupiter...  But I have never heard anyone claim that they actually
> understand why a card that Just Works in my camera can't be made to Just
> Work in all of our open source devices.
> 
> 
> Yes, I know this isn't very constructive...  Sometimes I just have to
> vent...   :-)

You are probably familiar with/aware of linux-mtd at infradead.org. Part of 
their FAQ made me suspect optimizations for FAT or parts of the spec left out 
of the flash translation layer giving problems with anything but FAT [1]: 
"(...) we suspect that vendors may user various tricks or compromises to keep 
their devices "good enough" and cheap. For example, it is known that some 
vendors optimize their FTL devices for FAT, and if you start using ext3 on top 
of one, you might face some unexpected problems (...)"

Not very constructive either :-( But a good read if you didn't after all ;-)

Boudewijn 

[1]


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Re: uSD corruption

[Doug Jones]

On 12/16/2011 01:08 AM, Radek Polak wrote:

On Thursday 15 December 2011 22:00:22 fdvj...@vodafone.it wrote:


Hi
I have a Kingstone microSD card 8GB. It seems to be reliable for data
but if I use it with a running distro, at this moment QtMoko, I
experience, during a day of usage, several freezings. I mean, when it is
in suspend mode (deep suspend enabled) if I press the power button the
Neo does not recover from the suspend. I have to pull off the battery
and then restart the Neo, but as can you imagine, after a couple of
times the file system gets corrupted and I have to format the partition.
Moreover this behaviour seems to become worse as the time passes.
Should I consider to replace the uSD card? are there known issues in
using running distro on it?
Thanks.


For me uSD card never worked as stable rootfs. I always ended up with
corrupted filesystem after a couple of days. But for data on FAT it always
worked quite good.

I guess this is some flaw in Freerunner's hardware or kernel driver. On GTA04
i have rootfs on uSD and no problems at all. I am starting to think that NAND
on GTA04 is quite useless - it would be quite cool if it had 2 uSD cards
instead (with BTRFS as fs it could rock).

Regards

Radek



I suspect there is something about the SD card implementation that is 
deeply flawed.


To my way of thinking, an interface should be well enough defined so 
that two devices should be able to figure out how to reliably talk to 
one another after being connected for a short time, even if they were 
designed by different groups years apart.  The spec should spell out 
how, and every device should follow the spec.  If it doesn't work this 
way, then there is something wrong with the spec, or with the processes 
vendors use to implement the spec, and/or with the group that manages 
and enforces the spec.


Four years ago I discovered that some SD cards had problems with the 
OLPC XO-1.  Then I had troubles with micro SD cards in the Freerunner. 
Then I heard about problems people were having with the EEE-PC running 
Linux.  Then the SheevaPlug.  And on and on.


Four years later and I'm still hearing stories about SD cards getting 
corrupted, and you still find lists of "known to work / not work" cards 
in the wikis of various projects.  Yet, if you exclude those cards that 
have obviously failed (because they don't work properly in anything), I 
never have problems with any SD card in any camera.


What is the source of this discrepancy?  Those cameras are proprietary 
inside, but those other projects are open source.  Perhaps the people in 
charge of SD aren't revealing something to the open source communities? 
 I don't know.


There have been endless discussions over the years, about file systems, 
race conditions, suspend modes, the gravitational influence of 
Jupiter...  But I have never heard anyone claim that they actually 
understand why a card that Just Works in my camera can't be made to Just 
Work in all of our open source devices.



Yes, I know this isn't very constructive...  Sometimes I just have to 
vent...   :-)



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Re: uSD corruption

[Frank]

Am 15.12.2011 22:00, schrieb fdvj...@vodafone.it:

Hi
I have a Kingstone microSD card 8GB. It seems to be reliable for data
but if I use it with a running distro, at this moment QtMoko,...



 file system gets corrupted and I have to format the partition.

...


Joif



Hallo Joif,
when I startet with Freerunner and QTmoko v35 I bought uSD-Cards in the 
Electronic-Market in Town. It was a a Toshiba 4 GB and a Toshiba 8 GB.


The filesystem on it get corrupted once a day.

Most times it was possible to repair the uSD-Filesystem by starting the 
Backup-System, a small QT-Moko in NAND and running:


 umount /media/card
 e2fsck -f -y -v /dev/mmcblk0p1

But this was no solution for eternity.

I ordered a Moko-tested uSD from Pulster [1], which works fine until 
today.  But:  It was a Kingston!


Maybe Kingston has different types?

It's not easy to find the right one as you see in [2].


[1] 
http://pulster.de/index.htm?d__om8msd__Speicherkarte_8_GB_microSD_fuer_Openmoko_Freerunner1003.htm


[2] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Supported_microSD_cards

--

Frank

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Re: uSD corruption

[Radek Polak]

On Thursday 15 December 2011 22:00:22 fdvj...@vodafone.it wrote:

> Hi
> I have a Kingstone microSD card 8GB. It seems to be reliable for data
> but if I use it with a running distro, at this moment QtMoko, I
> experience, during a day of usage, several freezings. I mean, when it is
> in suspend mode (deep suspend enabled) if I press the power button the
> Neo does not recover from the suspend. I have to pull off the battery
> and then restart the Neo, but as can you imagine, after a couple of
> times the file system gets corrupted and I have to format the partition.
> Moreover this behaviour seems to become worse as the time passes.
> Should I consider to replace the uSD card? are there known issues in
> using running distro on it?
> Thanks.

For me uSD card never worked as stable rootfs. I always ended up with 
corrupted filesystem after a couple of days. But for data on FAT it always 
worked quite good.

I guess this is some flaw in Freerunner's hardware or kernel driver. On GTA04  
i have rootfs on uSD and no problems at all. I am starting to think that NAND 
on GTA04 is quite useless - it would be quite cool if it had 2 uSD cards 
instead (with BTRFS as fs it could rock).

Regards

Radek


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Re: uSD corruption

[David Matthews]

I've had similar problems with that same (Kingston 8GB)  uSD card. I initially 
blamed qtmoko for this and switched to running it from a 2GB SanDisk card rather 
than NAND.  I'm pleased to say it (v35 & v37) works really well set up like 
this.

I have doubts that my diagnosis was correct though as I think the Kingston
card was failing and I'm intending to try running from NAND again and
mounting the SanDisk card for data.

The whole business of uSDs on the freerunner is most confusing, for instance
a 4GB SanDisk I have does not work at all. Throw into the mix that the card
maybe failing, and it's then tricky to be sure what the issue is.

--
David Matthews
m...@dmatthews.org

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Re: uSD corruption

[Ed Kapitein]

On Friday 16 December 2011 00:39:36 fdvj...@vodafone.it wrote:
> Il 15/12/2011 22:57, Boudewijn ha scritto:
> > On Thursday 15 December 2011 22:23:56 Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote:
> >> fdvj...@vodafone.it writes:
> >>> experience, during a day of usage, several freezings. I mean, when it
> >> 
> >> 1) What kernel?
> >> 2) What boot loader?
> >> 3) What boot options?
> >> 4) What filesystem?
> > 
> > 5) uSD speed?
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> 
> Sorry for the missing infos.
> OS: qtmoko v35 with kernel 2.6.34;
> bootloader: qi (shipped with qtomoko v35), no particular boot options,
> IINW; filesystem: ext2;
> uSD type: micro SDHC sdc4 8 gb class 4
> 
> Regards
> Joif

Hi Joif,

Please take a look at [1] and [2] on how to set the SD clock to a lower value.
The drive strength param might have changed with the newer kernel, you have to 
google a bit to see what is the right one.

Kind regards,
Ed

[1] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Supported_microSD_cards/SD-C02G
[2] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Supported_microSD_cards

PS I still have sometimes data coruption on the SD card ( once every 2 months 
or so) so it still is not perfect, but very usable.

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Re: uSD corruption

[fdvjoif]

Il 15/12/2011 22:57, Boudewijn ha scritto:

On Thursday 15 December 2011 22:23:56 Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote:

fdvj...@vodafone.it writes:

experience, during a day of usage, several freezings. I mean, when it

1) What kernel?
2) What boot loader?
3) What boot options?
4) What filesystem?

5) uSD speed?


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Sorry for the missing infos.
OS: qtmoko v35 with kernel 2.6.34;
bootloader: qi (shipped with qtomoko v35), no particular boot options, IINW;
filesystem: ext2;
uSD type: micro SDHC sdc4 8 gb class 4

Regards
Joif
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Re: uSD corruption

[Alishams Hassam]

With v36 on nanad (ubifs), kernel 2.6.34, qi and *no* deep sleep; I had
this happen *very* occasionally. Like maybe 2 - 3 times a month. That is to
say, when suspended, it just would not resume and required me to take out
the battery. I'm yet to experience this when I have logging enabled so I
have no idea what could be causing it.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:00 PM,  wrote:

> Hi
> I have a Kingstone microSD card 8GB. It seems to be reliable for data but
> if I use it with a running distro, at this moment QtMoko, I experience,
> during a day of usage, several freezings. I mean, when it is in suspend
> mode (deep suspend enabled) if I press the power button the Neo does not
> recover from the suspend. I have to pull off the battery and then restart
> the Neo, but as can you imagine, after a couple of times the file system
> gets corrupted and I have to format the partition. Moreover this behaviour
> seems to become worse as the time passes.
> Should I consider to replace the uSD card? are there known issues in using
> running distro on it?
> Thanks.
>
> Joif
>
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Re: uSD corruption

[Boudewijn]

On Thursday 15 December 2011 22:23:56 Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote:
> fdvj...@vodafone.it writes:
> > experience, during a day of usage, several freezings. I mean, when it
> 
> 1) What kernel?
> 2) What boot loader?
> 3) What boot options?
> 4) What filesystem?
5) uSD speed?


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Re: uSD corruption

[Timo Juhani Lindfors]

fdvj...@vodafone.it writes:
> experience, during a day of usage, several freezings. I mean, when it

1) What kernel?
2) What boot loader?
3) What boot options?
4) What filesystem?

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uSD corruption

[fdvjoif]

Hi
I have a Kingstone microSD card 8GB. It seems to be reliable for data 
but if I use it with a running distro, at this moment QtMoko, I 
experience, during a day of usage, several freezings. I mean, when it is 
in suspend mode (deep suspend enabled) if I press the power button the 
Neo does not recover from the suspend. I have to pull off the battery 
and then restart the Neo, but as can you imagine, after a couple of 
times the file system gets corrupted and I have to format the partition. 
Moreover this behaviour seems to become worse as the time passes.
Should I consider to replace the uSD card? are there known issues in 
using running distro on it?

Thanks.

Joif

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