vi vs. nano in shr user manual (was Re: SHR first experiences user manual)
see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SHR_User_Manual#Audio:_Volume On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Markus Törnqvistm...@nysv.org wrote: On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 11:32:09AM +0400, Paul Fertser wrote: Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi writes: How about preferring nano over vi? I think nano - telling people what to press, might be more friendlier. Nano is fucked-up shit imho. I'd be sad to see it mentioned in the SHR manual, no matter what the reasoning is. I could not have expressed it better :D And if you have an on-screen keyboard, it's slightly less of a suck to use an editor that doesn't require you to toggle Ctrl-button states every other keypress, but have states in the editor itself. Wait a sec - did I understand correctly that you want to tell people to use vi in the user manual? So I take you expect that people going through the manual are skilled enough to use vi and if not, they'll be smart enough to use nano instead? Maybe the manual should explain how to use vi: how to save, exit etc.. I have no idea how to use it. Maybe a link to vi howto? I have no problems accepting that some prefer more vi than nano but I have hard time accepting it being suggested in a manual where you can't be sure people know how to use it as it isn't as self-explanatory as nano, no matter how much Ctrl you have to use. r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: vi vs. nano in shr user manual (was Re: SHR first experiences user manual)
Maybe the manual should explain how to use vi: how to save, exit etc.. I have no idea how to use it. Maybe a link to vi howto? the question is how in depth should the manual go. even describing how to adjust volume level (which as has been said million times is unique to each device so there is not a common setting - for some 110 is good, for others 120 is required) seems for some people too overwhelming to describe... I also question too many links in the manual as i would like to package it as html for people to view it on the phone... @risto: to save: ESC :w ENTER to quit: ESC :q ENTER to save and quit: ESC :wq ENTER to quit without saving: ESC :q! ENTER to save a readonly file: ESC :wq! ENTER Petr ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: vi vs. nano in shr user manual (was Re: SHR first experiences user manual)
2009/8/28 Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi: I have no problems accepting that some prefer more vi than nano but I have hard time accepting it being suggested in a manual where you can't be sure people know how to use it as it isn't as self-explanatory as nano, no matter how much Ctrl you have to use. I agree. Manuals should be as easy. Mentioning Nano in manuals isn't better because Nano is better. Nano is an editor, that anybody can use _immediately_. If someone is using vi, i think he will be smart enough to know, that he can use vi instead of nano without breaking anything. Cheers, Fabian ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: vi vs. nano in shr user manual (was Re: SHR first experiences user manual)
On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Petr Vanekvan...@penguin.cz wrote: Maybe the manual should explain how to use vi: how to save, exit etc.. I have no idea how to use it. Maybe a link to vi howto? the question is how in depth should the manual go. even describing how to adjust volume level (which as has been said million times is unique to each device so there is not a common setting - for some 110 is good, for others 120 is required) seems for some people too overwhelming to describe... From what I read it's about how you tell it: if you tell everyone to adjust it, one must ask why isn't it included in the default package. If you tell that try first, see if it's any good, if it isn't, you might need to do this.. (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SHR_User_Manual#Audio:_Volume) I think there's no questions if it needs to be there. The way things are presented is very important. I also question too many links in the manual as i would like to package it as html for people to view it on the phone... Nice idea, in that case the required stuff needs to be there not to have to jump to other sites. I think Ubuntu Desktop Guide's a great one. @risto: to save: ESC :w ENTER to quit: ESC :q ENTER to save and quit: ESC :wq ENTER to quit without saving: ESC :q! ENTER to save a readonly file: ESC :wq! ENTER Thanks! r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: vi vs. nano in shr user manual (was Re: SHR first experiences user manual)
On Fri, 2009-08-28 at 11:00 +0300, Risto H. Kurppa wrote: see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SHR_User_Manual#Audio:_Volume ... Wait a sec - did I understand correctly that you want to tell people to use vi in the user manual? So I take you expect that people going through the manual are skilled enough to use vi and if not, they'll be smart enough to use nano instead? Maybe the manual should explain how to use vi: how to save, exit etc.. I have no idea how to use it. Maybe a link to vi howto? I have no problems accepting that some prefer more vi than nano but I have hard time accepting it being suggested in a manual where you can't be sure people know how to use it as it isn't as self-explanatory as nano, no matter how much Ctrl you have to use. r I would agree with Risto here - vi is great for experienced users, but for the inexperienced or pure user - it can be a nightmare experience that provides detractors with plenty of ammunition that linux is hard to use, for geeks only and not for serious use ... Idea, have guides for both (if not nano then something similarly easy to use - a dos edit clone of some kind for compatibility, nedit?) - linked from the manual. There are plenty of vi guides out there, and probably for most other apps as well. The idea should be to guide and inform, catering for both experienced and inexperienced (to both the FR and linux) users. BillK ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: vi vs. nano in shr user manual (was Re: SHR first experiences user manual)
The FLTK distribution has an excellent editor that is largely based on nedit code which I use on my FR. Forward your X display to another host and fire it up. Does not have all the features of nedit, but works just fine when compiled out of the box. ... Wait a sec - did I understand correctly that you want to tell people to use vi in the user manual? So I take you expect that people going through the manual are skilled enough to use vi and if not, they'll be smart enough to use nano instead? Maybe the manual should explain how to use vi: how to save, exit etc.. I have no idea how to use it. Maybe a link to vi howto? I have no problems accepting that some prefer more vi than nano but I have hard time accepting it being suggested in a manual where you can't be sure people know how to use it as it isn't as self-explanatory as nano, no matter how much Ctrl you have to use. r I would agree with Risto here - vi is great for experienced users, but for the inexperienced or pure user - it can be a nightmare experience that provides detractors with plenty of ammunition that linux is hard to use, for geeks only and not for serious use ... Idea, have guides for both (if not nano then something similarly easy to use - a dos edit clone of some kind for compatibility, nedit?) - linked from the manual. There are plenty of vi guides out there, and probably for most other apps as well. The idea should be to guide and inform, catering for both experienced and inexperienced (to both the FR and linux) users. BillK ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: vi vs. nano in shr user manual (was Re: SHR first experiences user manual)
2009/8/28, Petr Vanek van...@penguin.cz: I also question too many links in the manual as i would like to package it as html for people to view it on the phone... The Wiki Editing Guidelines[1] are already telling people to Use as few links as possible. However these guidelines are hard to find, so only a few people seem to read them. [1] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Wiki_Editing_Guidelines#Manuals ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: vi vs. nano in shr user manual (was Re: SHR first experiences user manual)
On Friday 28 August 2009, William Kenworthy wrote: On Fri, 2009-08-28 at 11:00 +0300, Risto H. Kurppa wrote: see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SHR_User_Manual#Audio:_Volume ... Wait a sec - did I understand correctly that you want to tell people to use vi in the user manual? So I take you expect that people going through the manual are skilled enough to use vi and if not, they'll be smart enough to use nano instead? Maybe the manual should explain how to use vi: how to save, exit etc.. I have no idea how to use it. Maybe a link to vi howto? I have no problems accepting that some prefer more vi than nano but I have hard time accepting it being suggested in a manual where you can't be sure people know how to use it as it isn't as self-explanatory as nano, no matter how much Ctrl you have to use. r I would agree with Risto here - vi is great for experienced users, but for the inexperienced or pure user - it can be a nightmare experience that provides detractors with plenty of ammunition that linux is hard to use, for geeks only and not for serious use ... Agreed. Even the Gentoo install guide uses nano for its examples. The inexperienced can use it, and the experienced will just substitute their preferred editor anyway. Idea, have guides for both (if not nano then something similarly easy to use - a dos edit clone of some kind for compatibility, nedit?) - linked from the manual. There are plenty of vi guides out there, and probably for most other apps as well. The idea should be to guide and inform, catering for both experienced and inexperienced (to both the FR and linux) users. It seems rather out of scope to me, as well as fertile ground for 'why isn't app x included whey you include app y' arguments. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: vi vs. nano in shr user manual (was Re: SHR first experiences user manual)
I would agree with Risto here - vi is great for experienced users, but for the inexperienced or pure user - it can be a nightmare experience that provides detractors with plenty of ammunition that linux is hard to use, for geeks only and not for serious use ... and what about leafpad - it's gtk based, no need for terminal to run, files can be opened via file dialog and it's for anybody... we would have to ask for it to be included by default then i guess... Petr ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: vi vs. nano in shr user manual (was Re: SHR first experiences user manual)
On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 9:34 PM, Petr Vanekvan...@penguin.cz wrote: I would agree with Risto here - vi is great for experienced users, but for the inexperienced or pure user - it can be a nightmare experience that provides detractors with plenty of ammunition that linux is hard to use, for geeks only and not for serious use ... and what about leafpad - it's gtk based, no need for terminal to run, files can be opened via file dialog and it's for anybody... err.. because most people (at least I do and recommend everyone else running the first installation configuriong) do the magic over ssh? -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
