Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-05 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller 

Am 05.03.2012 um 21:59 schrieb arne anka:

>> I think there are several options. If you keep the display, you have a nice 
>> GUI device for experimentation with WLAN, Bluetooth, USB. And, the SPI/I2C 
>> interfaces are accessible on test points near the debug connector.
> 
> well, i am no hardware guy, but just a humble application programmer.
> 
>> So a dismantled GTA02 is still a nice SoC-Evaluation kit. Could be donated 
>> to educational institutions, used in home control, make some funny digital 
>> photo frame, make it a wireless NAS server (well, a disk drive on USB1.0 is 
>> a little slow).
>> 
>> Or you keep the GTA02 as it is and wait until we have the CaseKit finished 
>> (which is not very far away).
> 
> how much would that be? i imagine, CaseKit + display + GTA04 board adds up to 
> about the 750 € for a complete GTA04, wouldn't it?

We don't know the exact prices yet.

> and anyway, i don't think, i would have much use for the GTA02, board or 
> complete, once i got an GTA04.
> 
> if nobody turns up with a good idea why s/he would need the board -- is it an 
> option for you, Nikolaus, to keep the board once i send in the GTA02 to be 
> made into a GTA04?

Yes, we already have a bunch of them (I hesitate to make a photo since this 
looks a little sad).

Nikolaus


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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-05 Thread arne anka 

I'm not even going to bother with the good netiquette of not top-posting
on this one so sorry if that offends you all.

Michael,
...


i don't think it makes much sense to dicuss his ... funny ideas further.

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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-05 Thread arne anka 
my idea of a donation was in the first place to get us nearer, my god to  
thee .. ehm .. nearer the 350 units required.
ie in the first place to help people who can't afford the full price,  
since it would mean the most value for every euro donated.
if that proves not feasible, the second best solution would to pay for  
units not (yet) sold -- and maybe give those away to developers.


reducing the group tour price is not an option for me -- and certainly not  
without all 350 units being sold. and even then i'd donate to fund project  
infrastructure


as proposed, the least effort would be applications for such donations  
would be brought forth on these lists -- then we could decide, who  
recieves a donation and how to proceed to make sure, it really is used to  
order a GTA04.


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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-05 Thread arne anka 
I think there are several options. If you keep the display, you have a  
nice GUI device for experimentation with WLAN, Bluetooth, USB. And, the  
SPI/I2C interfaces are accessible on test points near the debug  
connector.


well, i am no hardware guy, but just a humble application programmer.

So a dismantled GTA02 is still a nice SoC-Evaluation kit. Could be  
donated to educational institutions, used in home control, make some  
funny digital photo frame, make it a wireless NAS server (well, a disk  
drive on USB1.0 is a little slow).


Or you keep the GTA02 as it is and wait until we have the CaseKit  
finished (which is not very far away).


how much would that be? i imagine, CaseKit + display + GTA04 board adds up  
to about the 750 € for a complete GTA04, wouldn't it?
and anyway, i don't think, i would have much use for the GTA02, board or  
complete, once i got an GTA04.


if nobody turns up with a good idea why s/he would need the board -- is it  
an option for you, Nikolaus, to keep the board once i send in the GTA02 to  
be made into a GTA04?


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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-05 Thread Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli 
>It may not be that complicated, but it is morally wrong.  It is
>morally wrong to help or support someone who is guilty of hoarding the
>good code and denying it to the public.
so proprietary software(calypso source code is not free software) is morally 
good and free software(osmocombb and nuttx/nuttx-bb is free software) is 
morally wrong?

And note that even if they had part of the source, and that's not enough.
you want full source code and usually companies modifying the firmware 
basebands like openmoko don't have access to that.
but osmocom-bb is maybe inefficent righ now(I'm working on fixing that )
but at least you have full source code of layer 1, layer 2, layer 3
you can do calls, sms etc...with it.
you have even forks to detect if there are spying equipement connected to the 
network etc...
you can get a real estimation of the RSSI and findout if the levels are too low 
and calling is dangerous...

if you don't like contributing to osmocom-bb maybe you could contribute to fso 
and make it use osmocom-bb telnet interface for layer23?

And about Harald Welte, you forget that he spent a lot of time studying GSM 
protocols, standards, writing the osmocom-bb code and he released that under a 
free software license with full source code, isn't that great?
but you seem to prefer proprietary source code.

Also, note that the non-free source code may be big, who would review it for 
backdoors? how would you compile it without non-free software? nobody would 
contribute to it etc...

The only usefullness of proprietary source code is as a documentation to 
produce free source code.

Denis.

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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-05 Thread Fernando 
On Mar 5, 2012 10:33 "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller" 
wrote:

> Hi Fernando,
> 
> Am 05.03.2012 um 11:01 schrieb Fernando Martins:
> 
> > On 03/05/2012 10:36 AM, Al Johnson wrote:
> > > 
> > > There are a few places you can 'order' a donation, but I don't
> > > know how well
> > > known they are.
> > >  > > arly-Adopter>
> > > 
> > > 
> > The problem is that such a blind donations link is to vague and
> > non-transparent. It's not an exciting rallying point for a
> > community.
> 
> Yes this is a problem. These donations help to cover general cost e.g.
> of running servers, development and have been used to reduce the price
> a little. But future donations should not change the price of the
> group tour.
> 
> But as far as I see the intention is that there are some community
> members who want to specifically donate. We already have some orders
> where someone did do a full reservation with open shipment address and
> there was some private mail discussions of providing more kernel
> developers with a device.
> 
> So please specify here what you would do in return, if you would
> receive such a "free" unit. Then, the donators (who are following this
> list) can contact you directly.
> 
> > Nikolaus, would there be a way to define a more concrete donation
> > goal, eg., buying a specific batch of parts, that would help
> > goldelico achieve the group order?
> 
> Yes, that is a good idea and can be technically done.
> 
> The problem is that it is difficult to exactly track this. Let's
> assume someone donates 200 EUR, this would mean that we can reduce the
> group tour price by 200/350 EUR, i.e. 57 ct. This is quite difficult
> to calculate and translate into a real refund to everyone.
> 
> And I think reducing the price for new incoming orders (each donation
> reduces the 499 EUR by some cents) only would't be fair to those who
> already have ordered. Although it would be the easiest to implement
> scheme.
> 
> 
I agree that reduction in prices is not the most interesting way to go.

Donating mobiles to developers in exchange for specific software
improvement looks like a good idea.

The suggestion of targeting a specific batch of parts was not meant as a
translation into price reductions. The current orders would also
contribute their share to the batch. The suggestion was merely done in
case there are components that must be ordered in a batch now to achieve
important price reductions and other parts that could be bought on a
as-needed basis.

Fernando

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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-05 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller 
Hi Fernando,

Am 05.03.2012 um 11:01 schrieb Fernando Martins:

> On 03/05/2012 10:36 AM, Al Johnson wrote:
>> 
>> There are a few places you can 'order' a donation, but I don't know how well
>> known they are.
>> http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04&referer=GTA04-Early-Adopter
>> http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%3ACommunity
>> 
> The problem is that such a blind donations link is to vague and 
> non-transparent. It's not an exciting rallying point for a community.

Yes this is a problem. These donations help to cover general cost e.g. of 
running servers, development and have been used to reduce the price a little. 
But future donations should not change the price of the group tour.

But as far as I see the intention is that there are some community members who 
want to specifically donate. We already have some orders where someone did do a 
full reservation with open shipment address and there was some private mail 
discussions of providing more kernel developers with a device.

So please specify here what you would do in return, if you would receive such a 
"free" unit. Then, the donators (who are following this list) can contact you 
directly.

> Nikolaus, would there be a way to define a more concrete donation goal, eg., 
> buying a specific batch of parts, that would help goldelico achieve the group 
> order?

Yes, that is a good idea and can be technically done.

The problem is that it is difficult to exactly track this. Let's assume someone 
donates 200 EUR, this would mean that we can reduce the group tour price by 
200/350 EUR, i.e. 57 ct. This is quite difficult to calculate and translate 
into a real refund to everyone.

And I think reducing the price for new incoming orders (each donation reduces 
the 499 EUR by some cents) only would't be fair to those who already have 
ordered. Although it would be the easiest to implement scheme.

Or we buy a handful UMTS modules from the 200 EUR. But who gets those boards?

We could also think about reducing by each donation the number of units we 
need. This would only benefit the distributors and others since get a 
compensation for lower quantities.

Or should we do it that way, that every donated 25 EUR automatically converts a 
499 EUR group tour seat into a 474 EUR one, and each 50 EUR donation changes a 
499 EUR to a 449 EUR seat? This makes it a lottery if someone is fast enough to 
get such a "new" 449 seat.

Basically it needs some funds where you (donators) can put in money and you 
(others) can take it to get a GTA04 effectively at a reduced price. And perhaps 
a trustee to manage the funds.

IMHO the key aspect of a solution is: how do we find a fair scheme that price 
reductions by donations reach those who really need them (and not some 
free-riders)?

Nikolaus

PS: maybe another aspect should also be pointed out: we have a volume rebate in 
our calculation. I.e. if someone finds 4 others and orders 5 units in 
combination, there is 5% rebate and for 10 units it is 10% rebate.



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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-05 Thread Fernando Martins 

On 03/05/2012 10:36 AM, Al Johnson wrote:


There are a few places you can 'order' a donation, but I don't know how well
known they are.
http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04&referer=GTA04-Early-Adopter
http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%3ACommunity

The problem is that such a blind donations link is to vague and 
non-transparent. It's not an exciting rallying point for a community.


Nikolaus, would there be a way to define a more concrete donation goal, 
eg., buying a specific batch of parts, that would help goldelico achieve 
the group order?


Fernando



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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-05 Thread Al Johnson 
On Sunday 04 March 2012 12:51:08 arne anka wrote:
> >> (but i would be willing to donate/add a couple of euros if it will
> >> help
> >> someone to buy a GTA04 who can't afford the full or even the rebated
> >> price)
> > 
> > myself and others in this list have made the same offer...
> 
> that's very good to know.
> i didn't follow the development of sales too close (though close enough to
> finally convince me, i may want a GTA04, too ;-)
> 
> - how many are there an how much additional GTA04 could we buy/fund in
> adavnce between us (if nobody takes up the offer)?
> - how well known is that to prospective buyers of limited funds? such an
> offer, however generous it may be, is of little use if potential users are
> not aware of it - i for one did not know about it, except the remark about
> 5% rebates still being available since several early subscribers did not
> claim it.

There are a few places you can 'order' a donation, but I don't know how well 
known they are.
http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04&referer=GTA04-Early-Adopter
http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%3ACommunity

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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-04 Thread Brian 
I'm not even going to bother with the good netiquette of not top-posting
on this one so sorry if that offends you all.

Michael,

Whether you realize it or not you're giving open culture and this
community specifically a 'black eye' by posting such inflammatory
rhetoric. I, and probably most others on the list appreciate the hard
work that went into the Neo 1973, Neo FreeRunner, and the latest
iteration from Golden Delicious, the GTA04. I think you do as well, but
you have a funny way of showing it.

In a perfect world we would already have open standards that would
allow for the devices we envision. We don't live in a perfect world.
There are rules that need to be followed if we hope to change the
devices we're growing ever more accustomed to, and you're not helping
the process.

In point of fact public posts like yours will be used as ammunition
against what most of us on the list are working towards. I share your
sense of frustration in regards to hardware specs not being more open
but I won't resort to threats like you do. Instead I'll keep trying to
educate people about the dangers involved in walled gardens and closed
systems. At least that's a positive endeavour to engage in and it's
likely to eventually take hold once we have saner patent laws.

I think it's shameful for the open culture community on the whole to
have it's reputation sullied by your threatening comments. I can't tell
if you're a troll, an agent provocateur, or just a misguided soul who
really does mean what he says. In any case welcome to my 'plonk' file
pal as this will be the only response you'll ever get from me.

Hal 



On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 23:07:32 GMT
msoko...@ivan.harhan.org (Michael Sokolov) wrote:

> "Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli"  wrote:
>   
> > That points nowhere.  
> 
> For you maybe, but not for me.
>   
> > I think you should instead try to go the legal way,   
> 
> I disagree.  Man-made law of every kind is my arch-enemy, and the
> purpose of my life is to break those laws.  Without law-breaking life
> becomes devoid of meaning.
>   
> > so you can't be attacked in court,  
> 
> That is irrelevant to me: I can never be "attacked in court" because
> I WILL NEVER SHOW UP TO COURT.
>   
> > because it's way too easy to attack you if you do something
> > illegal.  
> 
> No, it isn't easy.
>   
> > Theses companies have a lot of lawyers and spend a lot on it.  
> 
> So what are they going to do?  Send me threats?  How?  By email?  I'll
> laugh at them, then hit delete.  By postal mail to my PO box?  There's
> a paper recycle bin conveniently located right next to it.  Look up
> one of the addresses I've used for receiving shipments, addresses that
> look like real physical ones?  Well, they only *look* like real
> physical addresses - in reality they are mailbox services.
> 
> So GOOD LUCK on trying to force me to show up in court...
>   
> > The way to go is to improve nuttx port on calypso phones.
> > it's not that complicated.  
> 
> It may not be that complicated, but it is morally wrong.  It is
> morally wrong to help or support someone who is guilty of hoarding the
> good code and denying it to the public.
> 
> Harald Welte is the leader of the entire Osmocom family of projects.
> He is a former employee of Om-Inc and I have every reason to suspect
> that he is hoarding a personal copy of the good code, although he'll
> obviously never admit to it.  That makes Osmocom morally tainted,
> i.e., it is morally wrong to contribute in any way to any of the
> projects under that umbrella, particularly OsmocomBB.
> 
> Just to be clear, there is nothing wrong with merely *using* what
> those projects have already produced: Leninist philosophy states that
> any and all means are acceptable, so we can use whatever tool or
> resource does the job.  But it *is* wrong to help them with
> contributions.  Therefore, if I ever feel like making enhancements to
> the OsmocomBB code base, I'll be sure to make them non-GPL-compatible
> so that my work benefits only the illegal community and not the legal
> one.
>   
> > so please instead of attacking the openmoko people which points
> > nowhere( they won't give you the source, they could have given it
> > to you already if they wished but they didn't. so I guess they
> > don't want to and will never give you theses sources),  
> 
> I can still kidnap one of them and do the thermorectal procedure.  And
> the prospect of going to prison for kidnapping/assault/battery/
> whatever they call it doesn't scare me one bit - I am very confident
> of my ability to upload the seized code to some warez site *before*
> the cops arrive and get me.  Then I could spend the rest of my life in
> prison or perhaps die in a gunfire exchange with the police while
> resisting arrest, but the deed will be done: the code will be FREE -
> once it hits a public warez site, it'll get copied by all the other
> warez sites and the copyright/NDA police will never be able to take
> all of those copies down.
>   
> > do so

Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-04 Thread Michael Sokolov 
"Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli"  wrote:

> That points nowhere.

For you maybe, but not for me.

> I think you should instead try to go the legal way, 

I disagree.  Man-made law of every kind is my arch-enemy, and the
purpose of my life is to break those laws.  Without law-breaking life
becomes devoid of meaning.

> so you can't be attacked in court,

That is irrelevant to me: I can never be "attacked in court" because
I WILL NEVER SHOW UP TO COURT.

> because it's way too easy to attack you if you do something illegal.

No, it isn't easy.

> Theses companies have a lot of lawyers and spend a lot on it.

So what are they going to do?  Send me threats?  How?  By email?  I'll
laugh at them, then hit delete.  By postal mail to my PO box?  There's
a paper recycle bin conveniently located right next to it.  Look up
one of the addresses I've used for receiving shipments, addresses that
look like real physical ones?  Well, they only *look* like real
physical addresses - in reality they are mailbox services.

So GOOD LUCK on trying to force me to show up in court...

> The way to go is to improve nuttx port on calypso phones.
> it's not that complicated.

It may not be that complicated, but it is morally wrong.  It is
morally wrong to help or support someone who is guilty of hoarding the
good code and denying it to the public.

Harald Welte is the leader of the entire Osmocom family of projects.
He is a former employee of Om-Inc and I have every reason to suspect
that he is hoarding a personal copy of the good code, although he'll
obviously never admit to it.  That makes Osmocom morally tainted,
i.e., it is morally wrong to contribute in any way to any of the
projects under that umbrella, particularly OsmocomBB.

Just to be clear, there is nothing wrong with merely *using* what
those projects have already produced: Leninist philosophy states that
any and all means are acceptable, so we can use whatever tool or
resource does the job.  But it *is* wrong to help them with
contributions.  Therefore, if I ever feel like making enhancements to
the OsmocomBB code base, I'll be sure to make them non-GPL-compatible
so that my work benefits only the illegal community and not the legal
one.

> so please instead of attacking the openmoko people which points nowhere( they 
> won't give you the source, they could have given it to you already if they 
> wished but they didn't. so I guess they don't want to and will never give you 
> theses sources),

I can still kidnap one of them and do the thermorectal procedure.  And
the prospect of going to prison for kidnapping/assault/battery/
whatever they call it doesn't scare me one bit - I am very confident
of my ability to upload the seized code to some warez site *before*
the cops arrive and get me.  Then I could spend the rest of my life in
prison or perhaps die in a gunfire exchange with the police while
resisting arrest, but the deed will be done: the code will be FREE -
once it hits a public warez site, it'll get copied by all the other
warez sites and the copyright/NDA police will never be able to take
all of those copies down.

> do something productive and join us in making osmocom-bb 
> usable(by improving the nuttx port on calypso and then porting osmocom-bb on 
> top of it).
>
> so instead of waisting time on useless things, please join us.

NO, NEVER.  If I have NO other option, I would rather take a gun,
shoot one of those bastards who are denying me the good code, then
shoot myself before the cops arrive.  I will be dead, but my tormentor
will be dead too, so that makes it a fair exchange, a life for a life.

MS

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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-04 Thread Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli 
>However, my work on building a Totally Illegal Phone
That points nowhere.
I think you should instead try to go the legal way, 
so you can't be attacked in court,
because it's way too easy to attack you if you do something illegal.
Theses companies have a lot of lawyers and spend a lot on it.

The way to go is to improve nuttx port on calypso phones.
it's not that complicated.
Now it runs on the calypso of the freerunner(and on other phones too).

so please instead of attacking the openmoko people which points nowhere( they 
won't give you the source, they could have given it to you already if they 
wished but they didn't. so I guess they don't want to and will never give you 
theses sources), do something productive and join us in making osmocom-bb 
usable(by improving the nuttx port on calypso and then porting osmocom-bb on 
top of it).

so instead of waisting time on useless things, please join us.

Denis.

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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-04 Thread Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli 
>- what's so hackable about the calypso fw? as far as i recall, it was a  
>major afford to get an updated fw and make it flashable. and how much less  
>hackable is the new gsm chip's fw?
Well, you can run osmocom-bb or nuttx on it.

for instance with nuttx:
root@om-gta02:~# /etc/init.d/dbus-1 stop
Stopping system message bus: dbus.
root@om-gta02:~# /etc/init.d/xserver-nodm stop
Stopping XServer
root@om-gta02:~# osmocon -i 13 -m romload -p /dev/ttySAC0 nuttx.bin 
[...]
open a new shell and type:
echo 0 >/sys/bus/platform/devices/gta02-pm-gsm.0/power_on
echo 1 >/sys/bus/platform/devices/gta02-pm-gsm.0/power_on
Then on the first shell you see:
Preparing block 63, block checksum is 0xec 
handle_write_block(): 1024 bytes (1024/1024)
handle_write_block(): Block 63 finished
Received block ack from phone
Preparing the last block, filling 616 bytes, block checksum is 0x75 
handle_write_block(): 1024 bytes (1024/1024)
handle_write_block(): Block 64 finished
Finished, sent 64 blocks in total
Received block ack from phone
Sending checksum: 0x42 
Checksum on phone side matches, let's branch to your code
Branching to 0x0082
Received branch ack, your code is running now!

NuttShell (NSH)

then with a python script you can interact with the shell:
root@om-gta02:~# ./loadwriter.py 
>help
which produces:
nsh> help
NSH command forms:
  [nice [-d >]]  [> |>> ] [&]
OR
  if 
  then
[sequence of ]
  else
[sequence of ]
  fi
Where  is one of:
  [  ]
  ?
  cat  [ [ ...]]
  cp  
  dd if= of= [bs=] [count=] 
[skip=]
  echo [ [...]]
  exec 
  exit
  free
  help
  kill - 
  losetup [-d ] | [[-o ] [-r]  ]
  ls [-lRs] 
  mb [=][ ]
  mkfifo 
  mh [=][ ]
  mw [=][ ]
  ps
  sh 
  sleep 
  test 
  usleep 
  xd  

Builtin Apps:

Alternatively you can run a loader, a hello world, a rss firmware, a 
layer1(with layer23 running on the samsung SOC) firmware etc

Denis.

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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-04 Thread Michael Sokolov 
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller  wrote:

> IMHO that has nothing to do with freedom at all. Just personal enrichment.

Objection: it is *NOT* personal enrichment if I share.  If I were to
ever get a hold of the ware that I am after, I would NOT greedily
hoard it for myself like its current holders are doing, I would make
it available to everyone who wants it.

> And does *not* bring forward the community.

Depends on which community you are talking about.  If *your* community
has chosen to cripple itself by limiting to just those means which
don't offend the repressive legislative regimes, then indeed your
community won't benefit from IFS (Illegal Free Software) work.

However, my work on building a Totally Illegal Phone (whether I do it
by kidnapping an ex-Om-Inc employee and beating the TI deliverable out
of him, by taking the publicly leaked TSM30 source and modifying it in
a copyright-disregarding manner to backport it to Leonardo/GTA02, or
by taking OsmocomBB and adding illegal enhancements to it) will most
certainly benefit a DIFFERENT community: a community of brave and
determined revolutionaries who are officially At War with all
law-making regimes and who would like to use the enemy's Public Land
Mobile Networks infrastructure in our asymmetric warfare against them.

MS

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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-04 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller 

Am 04.03.2012 um 21:14 schrieb Michael Sokolov:

> Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller  wrote:
> 
>> Could it be possible that those "greedy bastards" don't even exist except
>> in your wishful thinking?
> 
> I don't buy that - I don't buy the fairy-tale that each and every
> former employee of Om-Inc who had NDA'd access to The Treasure has

> refrained from sneaking a personal copy home with him.  That is a
> preposterous claim.  There most certainly do exist former Om-Inc
> employees who are sitting on personal copies of the deliverable which
> that company had received from TI.
> 
> I know of at least two former Om-Inc employees who have demonstrated
> detailed knowledge of what that deliverable contained - I take that as
> evidence that they are the ones most likely to be holding on to
> personal copies.  Not 100% proof, but enough evidence to hire some
> professionals to do a kidnapping operation as soon as I can gather up
> the funds to do that.  And if the people whom I suspect to be holding
> personal copies of the TI->Om deliverables have deleted those personal
> copies, well, too bad for them, as the hot soldering iron won't get
> taken out of their rectums until a copy of the ware is in my hands.
> 
> So, to those reading this who are holding those personal copies: just
> upload a copy anonymously to some warez site, announce it on this list
> using an untraceable anonymous email account, and then you will no
> longer need to worry about getting kidnapped and receiving
> thermorectal treatment.

Hm. In our legislation this is considered a crime "Erpressung" (extortion).
And for good reasons.

> 
>> This sounds like shooting yourself in the foot. As soon as I would do that,
>> I can't sell you a GT04 any more because I don't receive any more of these
>> modules. So it is not a realistic option.
> 
> The obvious solution is to use two separate unconnected identities for
> the NDA-signing and NDA-breaking activities.

No, that is not a solution. That is also a crime "Betrug" (fraud)...

And you honestly ask to commit crimes in the name of Free and Open Source?

IMHO that has nothing to do with freedom at all. Just personal enrichment.
And does *not* bring forward the community.
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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-04 Thread Michael Sokolov 
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller  wrote:

> Could it be possible that those "greedy bastards" don't even exist except
> in your wishful thinking?

I don't buy that - I don't buy the fairy-tale that each and every
former employee of Om-Inc who had NDA'd access to The Treasure has
refrained from sneaking a personal copy home with him.  That is a
preposterous claim.  There most certainly do exist former Om-Inc
employees who are sitting on personal copies of the deliverable which
that company had received from TI.

I know of at least two former Om-Inc employees who have demonstrated
detailed knowledge of what that deliverable contained - I take that as
evidence that they are the ones most likely to be holding on to
personal copies.  Not 100% proof, but enough evidence to hire some
professionals to do a kidnapping operation as soon as I can gather up
the funds to do that.  And if the people whom I suspect to be holding
personal copies of the TI->Om deliverables have deleted those personal
copies, well, too bad for them, as the hot soldering iron won't get
taken out of their rectums until a copy of the ware is in my hands.

So, to those reading this who are holding those personal copies: just
upload a copy anonymously to some warez site, announce it on this list
using an untraceable anonymous email account, and then you will no
longer need to worry about getting kidnapped and receiving
thermorectal treatment.

> This sounds like shooting yourself in the foot. As soon as I would do that,
> I can't sell you a GT04 any more because I don't receive any more of these
> modules. So it is not a realistic option.

The obvious solution is to use two separate unconnected identities for
the NDA-signing and NDA-breaking activities.

MS

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Re: [Gta04-owner] what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-04 Thread Dr . H . Nikolaus Schaller 

Am 04.03.2012 um 14:55 schrieb Benjamin Deering:

> 
> My gta02 innards will probably be reassigned to monitoring my kegerator.  
> Since it has i2c and wifi, I should be able to connect load sensors, a 
> thermometer, and a sensor to know when the compressor is running.  It could 
> then send the information over wifi to www.jeepingben.net so I can monitor 
> energy efficiency, beer levels, and beer temperature from anywhere.

++ :)

> On 03/04/2012 07:59 AM, Bob Ham wrote:
>> 
>> On Sat, 2012-03-03 at 22:44 +0100, arne anka wrote:
>> 
>>> so, what do you group tour subscribers plan to do with the replaced parts?  
>>> just sink them in the waste basket? hang on the wall? or do you have a  
>>> meaningful solution?
>> My intention is to use the remaining phone innards to experiment with
>> and help develop, a 3D printable case.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Gta04-owner mailing list
>> gta04-ow...@goldelico.com
>> http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo/gta04-owner
> 
> ___
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> gta04-ow...@goldelico.com
> http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo/gta04-owner

Nikolaus

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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-04 Thread Dr . H . Nikolaus Schaller 

Am 04.03.2012 um 00:59 schrieb Michael Sokolov:

> "arne anka"  wrote:
> 
>> but if nikolaus is ok with that (re-stocking the used GTA02 boards, that  
>> is :-), that's certainly solution.
> 
> As I understand it, he already does that.

Yes, we have some GTA02 boards w/o display...

> 
>> - what's so hackable about the calypso fw? as far as i recall, it was a  
>> major afford to get an updated fw and make it flashable.
> 
> Certain individuals in the Om community are holding personal copies of
> that firmware in "semi-source" form, or more precisely, in the form of
> object modules with full symbolic information (names of functions,
> global variables, etc) - not quite the same as full source, but pretty
> close in terms of hackability.  Unfortunately the greedy bastards are
> refusing to share, hence extracting the ware from them requires the
> use of a soldering iron, inserted rectally.  If anyone is willing to

Could it be possible that those "greedy bastards" don't even exist except
in your wishful thinking?

> perform such an operation for the benefit of the community, I can
> supply the names of the suspects and my best available information as
> to their physical whereabouts.
> 
> Alternatively, there exists the TSM30 firmware source: it's a
> different Calypso phone, and that code is full source and readily
> available from Cryptome.org and other sites.  Unfortunately the TSM30
> hardware has been very heavily modified from the Leonardo* baseline
> (whereas the GSM part of GTA02 is almost identical with Leonardo),
> hence backporting the TSM30 source to run on a Leonardo-style Calypso
> subsystem like GTA02 would take a lot more work than what we could do
> if we had the "real" GTA02 version of the "semi-source".  But the
> backport of the TSM30 to Leonardo/GTA02 does not seem impossible, just
> really difficult, and I am hoping to find the time some day to tackle
> that project - in my view, it is an ethically superior approach than
> OsmocomBB.
> 
> [*] Leonardo is TI's reference design for the Calypso/Iota/Rita
>chipset; liberated Leonardo board schematics and chip docs for all
>components are on my public FTP site.
> 
> There is also a possibility that someone in the People's Republic of
> China may have a copy of the same "semi-source" deliverable which FIC
> got from TI (that exact same deliverable or a very very similar one
> must have been given to *all* makers of Calypso-based feature phones),
> but who would be more open to sharing than the Om bastards.  Any
> comrades in the PRC reading this, you know whom to email.
> 
>> and how much less  
>> hackable is the new gsm chip's fw?
> 
> We shall only know if Nikolaus were to grow the b*lls to burn or shred
> his German passport, apply for citizenship in the Principality of
> Sealand, the Republic of New Poseidia or some other (micro)nation in
> which NDAs have no legal validity and in which all intellectual
> creations of every kind are automatically and unconditionally in the
> public domain, and publicly share all materials which he has received
> from the maker of whatever GSM/UMTS module he has used in the GTA04.
> 
> If and when Nikolaus does the above, I shall gladly and immediately
> buy a GTA04 - but not till then.

This sounds like shooting yourself in the foot. As soon as I would do that,
I can't sell you a GT04 any more because I don't receive any more of these
modules. So it is not a realistic option.

And you would be astonished how tiny information we really have. Almost
everything we know has been transcribed into valuable information and
is included in the user's manual. This are AT commands and the pin layout.

By going to the official product page you can also find out that there
is a QC MDM6600 inside (same as iPhone 4). But that does not mean
that we have received any information about that chip or its firmware...
We are at least on the output of the third level information filter from QC to 
us.

It is in this respect like buying a UMTS-USB stick in a blister pack where
you don't get a service manual included.

Finally you will find by research that there are some projects to write
alternate firmware for MDM6600 devices. But that is all, that I know that
those projects exist (I think one was mentioned recently on the GTA04
list [1]).

Nikolaus

[1]: http://lists.goldelico.com/pipermail/gta04-owner/2011-December/001071.html


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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-04 Thread Dr . H . Nikolaus Schaller 
Hi Arne,

Am 03.03.2012 um 22:44 schrieb arne anka:

> what's stopping me from subscribing for the GTA04 is simply the question, 
> what to do with the innards of my disembowled GTA02.
> although the GTA02 as well as a new GTA04 would be litle more than a toy 
> anyway, i shrink back from the idea to produce electronic waste just for fun.
> 
> money isn't really an issue here, but i don't want to spend 750 euros for a 
> complete new GTA04 i don't really have a practical use for.
> (but i would be willing to donate/add a couple of euros if it will help 
> someone to buy a GTA04 who can't afford the full or even the rebated price)
> 
> so, what do you group tour subscribers plan to do with the replaced parts? 
> just sink them in the waste basket? hang on the wall? or do you have a 
> meaningful solution?

I think there are several options. If you keep the display, you have a nice GUI 
device for experimentation with WLAN, Bluetooth, USB. And, the SPI/I2C 
interfaces are accessible on test points near the debug connector.

So a dismantled GTA02 is still a nice SoC-Evaluation kit. Could be donated to 
educational institutions, used in home control, make some funny digital photo 
frame, make it a wireless NAS server (well, a disk drive on USB1.0 is a little 
slow).

Or you keep the GTA02 as it is and wait until we have the CaseKit finished 
(which is not very far away).

> 
>> Therefore it is important to spread of the platform.
>> Having 1 month left over for subscribing to the
>> (extended) group tour is a good point to draw an
>> intermediate view.
>> 
>> This morning we now have 34% which is one third of the
>> required number of units (for the given price). This is a
>> good increment from the 23% or so we did have right
>> before FOSDEM when we decided to extend the subscription
>> time frame.
>> 
>> So the next goal is to crack the 40%!
>> 
>> One more thing:
>> 
>> some 5% rebate seats are still available since
>> some generous subscribers did choose no early
>> bird rebate.
>> 
>> BR,
>> Nikolaus
>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-04 Thread arne anka 
(but i would be willing to donate/add a couple of euros if it will help  
someone to buy a GTA04 who can't afford the full or even the rebated  
price)



myself and others in this list have made the same offer...


that's very good to know.
i didn't follow the development of sales too close (though close enough to  
finally convince me, i may want a GTA04, too ;-)


- how many are there an how much additional GTA04 could we buy/fund in  
adavnce between us (if nobody takes up the offer)?
- how well known is that to prospective buyers of limited funds? such an  
offer, however generous it may be, is of little use if potential users are  
not aware of it - i for one did not know about it, except the remark about  
5% rebates still being available since several early subscribers did not  
claim it.


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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-04 Thread Neil Jerram 
msoko...@ivan.harhan.org (Michael Sokolov) writes:

> close in terms of hackability.  Unfortunately the greedy bastards are
> refusing to share, hence extracting the ware from them requires the
> use of a soldering iron, inserted rectally.  If anyone is willing to

I'm sorry, but that is an intolerable thing to write.  I hope you will
take it back and apologise for it.

   Neil

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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-04 Thread Fernando Martins 

On 03/03/2012 10:44 PM, arne anka wrote:
(but i would be willing to donate/add a couple of euros if it will 
help someone to buy a GTA04 who can't afford the full or even the 
rebated price)



myself and others in this list have made the same offer...

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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-03 Thread Michael Sokolov 
"arne anka"  wrote:

> but if nikolaus is ok with that (re-stocking the used GTA02 boards, that  
> is :-), that's certainly solution.

As I understand it, he already does that.

> - what's so hackable about the calypso fw? as far as i recall, it was a  
> major afford to get an updated fw and make it flashable.

Certain individuals in the Om community are holding personal copies of
that firmware in "semi-source" form, or more precisely, in the form of
object modules with full symbolic information (names of functions,
global variables, etc) - not quite the same as full source, but pretty
close in terms of hackability.  Unfortunately the greedy bastards are
refusing to share, hence extracting the ware from them requires the
use of a soldering iron, inserted rectally.  If anyone is willing to
perform such an operation for the benefit of the community, I can
supply the names of the suspects and my best available information as
to their physical whereabouts.

Alternatively, there exists the TSM30 firmware source: it's a
different Calypso phone, and that code is full source and readily
available from Cryptome.org and other sites.  Unfortunately the TSM30
hardware has been very heavily modified from the Leonardo* baseline
(whereas the GSM part of GTA02 is almost identical with Leonardo),
hence backporting the TSM30 source to run on a Leonardo-style Calypso
subsystem like GTA02 would take a lot more work than what we could do
if we had the "real" GTA02 version of the "semi-source".  But the
backport of the TSM30 to Leonardo/GTA02 does not seem impossible, just
really difficult, and I am hoping to find the time some day to tackle
that project - in my view, it is an ethically superior approach than
OsmocomBB.

[*] Leonardo is TI's reference design for the Calypso/Iota/Rita
chipset; liberated Leonardo board schematics and chip docs for all
components are on my public FTP site.

There is also a possibility that someone in the People's Republic of
China may have a copy of the same "semi-source" deliverable which FIC
got from TI (that exact same deliverable or a very very similar one
must have been given to *all* makers of Calypso-based feature phones),
but who would be more open to sharing than the Om bastards.  Any
comrades in the PRC reading this, you know whom to email.

> and how much less  
> hackable is the new gsm chip's fw?

We shall only know if Nikolaus were to grow the b*lls to burn or shred
his German passport, apply for citizenship in the Principality of
Sealand, the Republic of New Poseidia or some other (micro)nation in
which NDAs have no legal validity and in which all intellectual
creations of every kind are automatically and unconditionally in the
public domain, and publicly share all materials which he has received
from the maker of whatever GSM/UMTS module he has used in the GTA04.

If and when Nikolaus does the above, I shall gladly and immediately
buy a GTA04 - but not till then.

MS

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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-03 Thread arne anka 

well, that's certainly an idea that didn'zt occur to me.
but wouldn't support those reactionaries somehow defy the purpose of the  
GTA04 movement? ;-) otoh, if there's sufficient demand it could offer  
another source of funding.


but if nikolaus is ok with that (re-stocking the used GTA02 boards, that  
is :-), that's certainly solution.

two questions though:

- what's so hackable about the calypso fw? as far as i recall, it was a  
major afford to get an updated fw and make it flashable. and how much less  
hackable is the new gsm chip's fw?
- nikolaus: what about future fw updates for those closed parts like the  
gsm chip? not just new features but simple bug fixes?



"arne anka"  wrote:

so, what do you group tour subscribers plan to do with the replaced  
parts?

just sink them in the waste basket? hang on the wall? or do you have a
meaningful solution?


Please please please don't waste them, please make them available to
people like me who like GTA02 BETTER than GTA04 (for Calypso GSM
firmware hacking reasons).

One way to do that would be to ship the GTA02 PCBA back to Goldelico
who will then save these parts for resale to the interested people.

MS

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Re: what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-03 Thread Michael Sokolov 
"arne anka"  wrote:

> so, what do you group tour subscribers plan to do with the replaced parts?  
> just sink them in the waste basket? hang on the wall? or do you have a  
> meaningful solution?

Please please please don't waste them, please make them available to
people like me who like GTA02 BETTER than GTA04 (for Calypso GSM
firmware hacking reasons).

One way to do that would be to ship the GTA02 PCBA back to Goldelico
who will then save these parts for resale to the interested people.

MS

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what to with 02 when upgrading to 04? was: Re: How to bring forward the community?

2012-03-03 Thread arne anka 
what's stopping me from subscribing for the GTA04 is simply the question,  
what to do with the innards of my disembowled GTA02.
although the GTA02 as well as a new GTA04 would be litle more than a toy  
anyway, i shrink back from the idea to produce electronic waste just for  
fun.


money isn't really an issue here, but i don't want to spend 750 euros for  
a complete new GTA04 i don't really have a practical use for.
(but i would be willing to donate/add a couple of euros if it will help  
someone to buy a GTA04 who can't afford the full or even the rebated price)


so, what do you group tour subscribers plan to do with the replaced parts?  
just sink them in the waste basket? hang on the wall? or do you have a  
meaningful solution?



Therefore it is important to spread of the platform.
Having 1 month left over for subscribing to the
(extended) group tour is a good point to draw an
intermediate view.

This morning we now have 34% which is one third of the
required number of units (for the given price). This is a
good increment from the 23% or so we did have right
before FOSDEM when we decided to extend the subscription
time frame.

So the next goal is to crack the 40%!

One more thing:

some 5% rebate seats are still available since
some generous subscribers did choose no early
bird rebate.

BR,
Nikolaus



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