Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC-31 Meeting

[Mark Tinka]

I'm not sure having a meeting-specific mailing list helps here, because
it assumes that attendees will always register.

Brokers (and in particular, brokers who spam) can't be guaranteed to
register, or more specifically, follow the rules. They could just show
up as regular hotel guests, not register for the conference, and reach
out to AFRINIC members like they did me and many others, to organize
sidebar meetings, cocktails, dinners, e.t.c. This, I believe, is far
more likely than anything else above-board.

So the best defence is to equip the membership to not get caught up in
this whirlwind, should they be called to the side by the brokers.

Mark.

On 17/Nov/19 17:05, Augustine CHII Ngek wrote:
> +1 Nishal
> We can simply go back to that tradition and see how it helps us in
> this present circumstances.
> Augustine CHII NGEK
>
> On Sun, 17 Nov 2019, 13:50 Nishal Goburdhan,
> mailto:nis...@controlfreak.co.za>> wrote:
>
> On 17 Nov 2019, at 13:09, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss
> wrote:
>
> > I don’t think AFRINIC publishes an attendee list, an even less with
> > contact emails, so not sure how that will work.
> > At least, I just looked at the website (and recent events websites)
> > and couldn’t find it.
>
> many years ago, there were meeting-specific mailing lists, so that
> meeting attendees could share taxi rides, find dinner partners, or
> jogging trails, .. etc.  without spamming regular mailing lists. 
> if you
> weren’t registered for the specific meeting (and presumably onsite)
> you were saved from the span of “where is a nice place to .. “ type
> messages, which were only really contextually useful for meeting
> attendees.  the lists were killed shortly after the meeting.
>
> that process was unfortunately discontinued.
>
> -n.
>
> ___
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> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net 
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: AFRINIC-31 Meeting

[Mark Tinka]

Totally agreed, which is why I feel that empowering the membership with
enough knowledge to handle themselves well when approached by these
brokers is the best solution all around.

Ultimately, the final decision rests in the hands of those approaching,
and those being approached. So let's equip those being approached, and
make them less susceptible to undue influence.

Mark.

On 17/Nov/19 15:35, Andrew Alston wrote:
>
> I would have a major problem with control over who attends the meetings.
>
>  
>
> To be frank – meetings are about the community, and if we start
> deciding who can and who can’t attend the meetings – beyond the scope
> of a code of conduct – it’s a dangerous and slippery slope from
> there.   I mean – I believe we are feel to name, shame and shun those
> who behave in bad behavior at meetings if we as individuals do not
> like their behavior – but I do not believe we should prevent attendance. 
>
>  
>
> In the same way – I would not advocate for banning someone like Marcus
> from the meeting who used fake accounts to spew racist garbage on the
> lists.  I would advocate from banning them from the lists, and  I
> would fully support a public shaming and humiliation on the floor of
> the meeting so they get the idea this is a **BAD** idea in future, but
> – let them come to the meeting and face the consequences of their actions
>
>  
>
> Andrew
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From: *Mark Tinka 
> *Date: *Sunday, 17 November 2019 at 13:44
> *To: *Andrew Alston ,
> "community-discuss@afrinic.net" 
> *Subject: *Re: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: AFRINIC-31 Meeting
>
>  
>
> Thanks, Andrew.
>
> Makes sense to me, but only if both the brokers and the interested RIR
> members abide by these rules.
>
> What I see more likely happening is either side finds this opt-in/out
> ineffective. If we somehow block the spamming and can control who
> attends the meetings, they'll just sidebar all their meetings in and
> around the conference venue, which we definitely cannot control.
>
> So for me, making sure the community fully understands this at an
> intellectual, commercial (and if possible, legal) level is our best
> defence at making sure nobody is duped into doing something they don't
> understand or don't really want to do.
>
> Mark.
>
> On 17/Nov/19 10:41, Andrew Alston wrote:
>
> Personally I have another take on this -
>
>  
>
> I do not agree with spam - or harvesting emails - period - so will
> start there.
>
>  
>
> I do however think that it may be worth considering an opt in/opt
> out list for attendees of AfriNIC meetings where people who wish
> to promote services or give general information about what they
> are doing etc may be worth having.
>
>  
>
> This creates a situation where it avoids to the spam, it’s opt in
> so people who do want to see services on offer by attendees have
> the option of subscribing, and it lets the community market their
> services to each other.  I would have no issue with the existence
> of such a list.
>
>  
>
> Just a thought
>
>  
>
> Andrew 
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Get Outlook for iOS 
>
> 
>
> *From:*Mark Tinka  
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 17, 2019 4:32:27 PM
> *To:* community-discuss@afrinic.net
> 
>  
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: AFRINIC-31 Meeting
>
>  
>
> I'm not sure stopping them from attending is possible, as that can
> be easily forged.
>
> I'm also not sure preventing them from reaching out to the
> community for their business is also feasible.
>
> The only real defence that I see is equipping the community with
> sufficient knowledge about this so folk are not easily swayed by
> the glorious promises of engaging with them.
>
> Mark.
>
> On 16/Nov/19 17:20, Sami Salih wrote:
>
>  
>
> if we all agreed that the reasons they want to attend AFRINIC
> is not welcoming, can we be more proactive and stop them from
> attending or at least stop them from conveying the message to
> the community ?  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *Dr. Sami H.O. Salih*
> Assistant Prof, School of Electronics Engineering, SUST
> Head of R, NTC, SUDAN
> President of SDv6TF
> T/F: (249)122045707/187171355
>
> 
> 
>
> *From:*Owen DeLong  
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 16, 2019 12:02 AM
> *To:* Badru Ntege 
> 
> *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC
> 
> ;
> members-disc...@afrinic.net
> 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: AFRINIC-31 Meeting

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss]

Well … the so-called “Benjamin” broke *several times* the code of conduct:

 

https://afrinic.net/code

 

So should be ban from the meeting (and the lists) and not only Benjamin, but 
also the real person behind him.

 

I’ve asked the staff/board to verify the information about who is behind 
Benjamin. This is possible and easy, you just need a policy claim to 
investigate the case asking Google to confirm if Benjamin is “x” and IP 
addresses (which in turn can be verified with the ISP). We had sufficient 
information to conduct such claim.

 

My understanding is that they objected to do so. This, in my opinion, is 
setting a very bad precedent: “You can ignore the code of conduct, because we 
aren’t going to ask for an investigation”.

 

The board is still in time to proceed with such claim. As much time passes, 
less chances to get the correlation of the IP addresses.

 

Otherwise, they will have NO RIGHT in the future, to enforce the code of 
conduct with other, because then the board can clearly be accused of 
discrimination: either you follow the code of conduct with all the same way, or 
you don’t use it at all and just trash it.

 

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

 

 

 

El 17/11/19 21:42, "Andrew Alston"  escribió:

 

I would have a major problem with control over who attends the meetings.

 

To be frank – meetings are about the community, and if we start deciding who 
can and who can’t attend the meetings – beyond the scope of a code of conduct – 
it’s a dangerous and slippery slope from there.   I mean – I believe we are 
feel to name, shame and shun those who behave in bad behavior at meetings if we 
as individuals do not like their behavior – but I do not believe we should 
prevent attendance.  

 

In the same way – I would not advocate for banning someone like Marcus from the 
meeting who used fake accounts to spew racist garbage on the lists.  I would 
advocate from banning them from the lists, and  I would fully support a public 
shaming and humiliation on the floor of the meeting so they get the idea this 
is a *BAD* idea in future, but – let them come to the meeting and face the 
consequences of their actions

 

Andrew

 

 

From: Mark Tinka 
Date: Sunday, 17 November 2019 at 13:44
To: Andrew Alston , 
"community-discuss@afrinic.net" 
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: AFRINIC-31 Meeting

 

Thanks, Andrew.

Makes sense to me, but only if both the brokers and the interested RIR members 
abide by these rules.

What I see more likely happening is either side finds this opt-in/out 
ineffective. If we somehow block the spamming and can control who attends the 
meetings, they'll just sidebar all their meetings in and around the conference 
venue, which we definitely cannot control.

So for me, making sure the community fully understands this at an intellectual, 
commercial (and if possible, legal) level is our best defence at making sure 
nobody is duped into doing something they don't understand or don't really want 
to do.

Mark.

On 17/Nov/19 10:41, Andrew Alston wrote:

Personally I have another take on this -

 

I do not agree with spam - or harvesting emails - period - so will start there.

 

I do however think that it may be worth considering an opt in/opt out list for 
attendees of AfriNIC meetings where people who wish to promote services or give 
general information about what they are doing etc may be worth having.

 

This creates a situation where it avoids to the spam, it’s opt in so people who 
do want to see services on offer by attendees have the option of subscribing, 
and it lets the community market their services to each other.  I would have no 
issue with the existence of such a list.

 

Just a thought

 

Andrew 

 

 

Get Outlook for iOS

From: Mark Tinka 
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2019 4:32:27 PM
To: community-discuss@afrinic.net 
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: AFRINIC-31 Meeting 

 

I'm not sure stopping them from attending is possible, as that can be easily 
forged.

I'm also not sure preventing them from reaching out to the community for their 
business is also feasible.

The only real defence that I see is equipping the community with sufficient 
knowledge about this so folk are not easily swayed by the glorious promises of 
engaging with them.

Mark.

On 16/Nov/19 17:20, Sami Salih wrote:

 

if we all agreed that the reasons they want to attend AFRINIC is not welcoming, 
can we be more proactive and stop them from attending or at least stop them 
from conveying the message to the community ?  

 

 

Dr. Sami H.O. Salih
Assistant Prof, School of Electronics Engineering, SUST
Head of R, NTC, SUDAN
President of SDv6TF
T/F: (249)122045707/187171355 

From: Owen DeLong 
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2019 12:02 AM
To: Badru Ntege 
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC ; 
members-disc...@afrinic.net 
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: AFRINIC-31 Meeting 

 

The best solution is simply to make sure to avoid doing business with them. 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: AFRINIC-31 Meeting

[Andrew Alston]

I would have a major problem with control over who attends the meetings.

To be frank – meetings are about the community, and if we start deciding who 
can and who can’t attend the meetings – beyond the scope of a code of conduct – 
it’s a dangerous and slippery slope from there.   I mean – I believe we are 
feel to name, shame and shun those who behave in bad behavior at meetings if we 
as individuals do not like their behavior – but I do not believe we should 
prevent attendance.

In the same way – I would not advocate for banning someone like Marcus from the 
meeting who used fake accounts to spew racist garbage on the lists.  I would 
advocate from banning them from the lists, and  I would fully support a public 
shaming and humiliation on the floor of the meeting so they get the idea this 
is a *BAD* idea in future, but – let them come to the meeting and face the 
consequences of their actions

Andrew


From: Mark Tinka 
Date: Sunday, 17 November 2019 at 13:44
To: Andrew Alston , 
"community-discuss@afrinic.net" 
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: AFRINIC-31 Meeting

Thanks, Andrew.

Makes sense to me, but only if both the brokers and the interested RIR members 
abide by these rules.

What I see more likely happening is either side finds this opt-in/out 
ineffective. If we somehow block the spamming and can control who attends the 
meetings, they'll just sidebar all their meetings in and around the conference 
venue, which we definitely cannot control.

So for me, making sure the community fully understands this at an intellectual, 
commercial (and if possible, legal) level is our best defence at making sure 
nobody is duped into doing something they don't understand or don't really want 
to do.

Mark.
On 17/Nov/19 10:41, Andrew Alston wrote:
Personally I have another take on this -

I do not agree with spam - or harvesting emails - period - so will start there.

I do however think that it may be worth considering an opt in/opt out list for 
attendees of AfriNIC meetings where people who wish to promote services or give 
general information about what they are doing etc may be worth having.

This creates a situation where it avoids to the spam, it’s opt in so people who 
do want to see services on offer by attendees have the option of subscribing, 
and it lets the community market their services to each other.  I would have no 
issue with the existence of such a list.

Just a thought

Andrew


Get Outlook for iOS

From: Mark Tinka 
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2019 4:32:27 PM
To: community-discuss@afrinic.net 

Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: AFRINIC-31 Meeting

I'm not sure stopping them from attending is possible, as that can be easily 
forged.

I'm also not sure preventing them from reaching out to the community for their 
business is also feasible.

The only real defence that I see is equipping the community with sufficient 
knowledge about this so folk are not easily swayed by the glorious promises of 
engaging with them.

Mark.
On 16/Nov/19 17:20, Sami Salih wrote:

if we all agreed that the reasons they want to attend AFRINIC is not welcoming, 
can we be more proactive and stop them from attending or at least stop them 
from conveying the message to the community ?


Dr. Sami H.O. Salih
Assistant Prof, School of Electronics Engineering, SUST
Head of R, NTC, SUDAN
President of SDv6TF
T/F: (249)122045707/187171355

From: Owen DeLong 
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2019 12:02 AM
To: Badru Ntege 
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC 
; 
members-disc...@afrinic.net 

Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: AFRINIC-31 Meeting

The best solution is simply to make sure to avoid doing business with them. 
Eventually they get the hint, especially if you tell them flat out that you 
don’t do business with spammers.

Owen



On Nov 15, 2019, at 09:49 , Badru Ntege 
mailto:badru.nt...@nftconsult.com>> wrote:

I agree with you on the bad taste.

Have many words to add but time to breathe in and out and constrain oneself

Sent from my iPhone

On 15 Nov 2019, at 12:26, Mark Tinka 
mailto:mark.ti...@seacom.mu>> wrote:
Not sure if anyone else has received these...

I am probably old school, but these kinds of things leave a bad taste in my 
mouth.

Mark.

 Forwarded Message 
Subject:
AFRINIC-31 Meeting
Date:
Fri, 15 Nov 2019 09:18:52 +
From:
Lena AFRINIC 
To:
mark.ti...@seacom.mu



Greetings,

Hope this email finds you well!
I'm representing IPv4 Services, a registered broker in RIPE, ARIN and APNIC. We 
are attending at AFRINIC 31 in Luanda, Angola, and would be a pleasure to 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: AFRINIC-31 Meeting

[Mark Tinka]

Thanks, Andrew.

Makes sense to me, but only if both the brokers and the interested RIR
members abide by these rules.

What I see more likely happening is either side finds this opt-in/out
ineffective. If we somehow block the spamming and can control who
attends the meetings, they'll just sidebar all their meetings in and
around the conference venue, which we definitely cannot control.

So for me, making sure the community fully understands this at an
intellectual, commercial (and if possible, legal) level is our best
defence at making sure nobody is duped into doing something they don't
understand or don't really want to do.

Mark.

On 17/Nov/19 10:41, Andrew Alston wrote:
> Personally I have another take on this -
>
> I do not agree with spam - or harvesting emails - period - so will
> start there.
>
> I do however think that it may be worth considering an opt in/opt out
> list for attendees of AfriNIC meetings where people who wish to
> promote services or give general information about what they are doing
> etc may be worth having.
>
> This creates a situation where it avoids to the spam, it’s opt in so
> people who do want to see services on offer by attendees have the
> option of subscribing, and it lets the community market their services
> to each other.  I would have no issue with the existence of such a list.
>
> Just a thought
>
> Andrew 
>
>
> Get Outlook for iOS 
> 
> *From:* Mark Tinka 
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 17, 2019 4:32:27 PM
> *To:* community-discuss@afrinic.net 
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: AFRINIC-31 Meeting
>  
> I'm not sure stopping them from attending is possible, as that can be
> easily forged.
>
> I'm also not sure preventing them from reaching out to the community
> for their business is also feasible.
>
> The only real defence that I see is equipping the community with
> sufficient knowledge about this so folk are not easily swayed by the
> glorious promises of engaging with them.
>
> Mark.
>
> On 16/Nov/19 17:20, Sami Salih wrote:
>>
>> if we all agreed that the reasons they want to attend AFRINIC is not
>> welcoming, can we be more proactive and stop them from attending or
>> at least stop them from conveying the message to the community ?  
>>
>>
>> *Dr. Sami H.O. Salih*
>> Assistant Prof, School of Electronics Engineering, SUST
>> Head of R, NTC, SUDAN
>> President of SDv6TF
>> T/F: (249)122045707/187171355
>> 
>> *From:* Owen DeLong  
>> *Sent:* Saturday, November 16, 2019 12:02 AM
>> *To:* Badru Ntege 
>> 
>> *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC 
>> ; members-disc...@afrinic.net
>>  
>> 
>> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: AFRINIC-31 Meeting
>>  
>> The best solution is simply to make sure to avoid doing business with
>> them. Eventually they get the hint, especially if you tell them flat
>> out that you don’t do business with spammers.
>>
>> Owen
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 15, 2019, at 09:49 , Badru Ntege >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree with you on the bad taste. 
>>>
>>> Have many words to add but time to breathe in and out and constrain
>>> oneself 
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On 15 Nov 2019, at 12:26, Mark Tinka >> > wrote:
>>>
 Not sure if anyone else has received these...

 I am probably old school, but these kinds of things leave a bad
 taste in my mouth.

 Mark.

  Forwarded Message 
 Subject:   AFRINIC-31 Meeting
 Date:  Fri, 15 Nov 2019 09:18:52 +
 From:  Lena AFRINIC 
 
 To:mark.ti...@seacom.mu 



 Greetings,


 Hope this email finds you well!

 I'm representing IPv4 Services, a registered broker in RIPE, ARIN
 and APNIC. We are attending at AFRINIC 31 in Luanda, Angola, and
 would be a pleasure to meet people that are open to a potential
 collaboration regarding IPv4 resources.

 We are planning to establish new connections and find AFRINIC based
 business partners for selling/leasing/purchase of IPv4 addresses.

 NOTE - if you are interested please feel free to contact me with
 any questions.


 See you at the event.


 --

 Kind regards,

 Elena Dontu

  

 lena.ipv4 (Skype)

 LenaIPv4 (WeChat)

 +37360820413 (WhatsApp)

 web: ipv4services.com  


 
 You received this email because you subscribed at Ripe Training Courses
 Отписаться
 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: AFRINIC-31 Meeting

[Andrew Alston]

Personally I have another take on this -

I do not agree with spam - or harvesting emails - period - so will start there.

I do however think that it may be worth considering an opt in/opt out list for 
attendees of AfriNIC meetings where people who wish to promote services or give 
general information about what they are doing etc may be worth having.

This creates a situation where it avoids to the spam, it’s opt in so people who 
do want to see services on offer by attendees have the option of subscribing, 
and it lets the community market their services to each other.  I would have no 
issue with the existence of such a list.

Just a thought

Andrew


Get Outlook for iOS

From: Mark Tinka 
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2019 4:32:27 PM
To: community-discuss@afrinic.net 
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: AFRINIC-31 Meeting

I'm not sure stopping them from attending is possible, as that can be easily 
forged.

I'm also not sure preventing them from reaching out to the community for their 
business is also feasible.

The only real defence that I see is equipping the community with sufficient 
knowledge about this so folk are not easily swayed by the glorious promises of 
engaging with them.

Mark.

On 16/Nov/19 17:20, Sami Salih wrote:

if we all agreed that the reasons they want to attend AFRINIC is not welcoming, 
can we be more proactive and stop them from attending or at least stop them 
from conveying the message to the community ?


Dr. Sami H.O. Salih
Assistant Prof, School of Electronics Engineering, SUST
Head of R, NTC, SUDAN
President of SDv6TF
T/F: (249)122045707/187171355

From: Owen DeLong 
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2019 12:02 AM
To: Badru Ntege 
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC 
; 
members-disc...@afrinic.net 

Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: AFRINIC-31 Meeting

The best solution is simply to make sure to avoid doing business with them. 
Eventually they get the hint, especially if you tell them flat out that you 
don’t do business with spammers.

Owen


On Nov 15, 2019, at 09:49 , Badru Ntege 
mailto:badru.nt...@nftconsult.com>> wrote:

I agree with you on the bad taste.

Have many words to add but time to breathe in and out and constrain oneself

Sent from my iPhone

On 15 Nov 2019, at 12:26, Mark Tinka 
mailto:mark.ti...@seacom.mu>> wrote:

Not sure if anyone else has received these...

I am probably old school, but these kinds of things leave a bad taste in my 
mouth.

Mark.

 Forwarded Message 
Subject:AFRINIC-31 Meeting
Date:   Fri, 15 Nov 2019 09:18:52 +
From:   Lena AFRINIC 
To: mark.ti...@seacom.mu




[http://service.breeden-comm.com/content/2efdcfad60a3dcd7c788098b904e40cf.png]

Greetings,


Hope this email finds you well!

I'm representing IPv4 Services, a registered broker in RIPE, ARIN and APNIC. We 
are attending at AFRINIC 31 in Luanda, Angola, and would be a pleasure to meet 
people that are open to a potential collaboration regarding IPv4 resources.

We are planning to establish new connections and find AFRINIC based business 
partners for selling/leasing/purchase of IPv4 addresses.

NOTE - if you are interested please feel free to contact me with any questions.


See you at the event.


--

Kind regards,

Elena Dontu



lena.ipv4 (Skype)

LenaIPv4 (WeChat)

+37360820413 (WhatsApp)

web: ipv4services.com



You received this email because you subscribed at Ripe Training Courses
Отписаться
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