Re: [computer-go] 2008 Olympiad

2008-09-17 Thread Ian Osgood


On Aug 21, 2008, at 12:48 AM, Rémi Coulom wrote:


Ian Osgood wrote:


Thanks! I see that KCC Paduk is no longer on the list of  
participants for 2008. Have they withdrawn?


Ian


Their registration was rejected because of past problems with  
[this] program in other computer Go tournaments (these are the  
words of David Levy). The ICGA will make an official statement later.


I hope it will give to Chen Zhixing some incentive to participate.  
He has registered to the TaiZhou tournament, but not to the  
Olympiad. So have Gostar and some other Chinese programs. That  
clash between TaiZhou and the Olympiad is very unfortunate.


I have noticed that the Olympiad was renamed 13th International  
Computer Games Championship. I suppose they cannot use Olympiad  
for legal reasons.


Rémi


I no longer see CrazyStone nor GoLois in the list of participants for  
19x19.  I do hope Chen Zhixing decides to enter HandTalk.


Ian
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OT: Teaching Go (was Re: [computer-go] Re: Disputes under Japanese rules)

2008-09-17 Thread Peter Drake
I'm inclined to agree, but it bothers me to have to explain life and  
death before scoring. Life and death therefore become part of the  
rules rather than an emergent consequences of the rules . I want to  
be able to give a tiny set of rules and then let players loose to  
discover things on their own.


I would probably simply use AGA rules, but just about all English  
introductory books (e.g., Learn to Play Go by Janice Kim and Jeong  
Soo-huyn) use the Japanese rules.


Peter Drake
http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/




On Sep 16, 2008, at 7:25 PM, Ross Werner wrote:

Also, I think when teaching beginners Go, the trust me, you lost  
here even though you cannot understand it approach is a gigantic  
mistake no matter which ruleset you are using. Play it out, and  
show the beginner exactly why those disputed stones are dead (or  
alive). This is possible no matter what kind of scoring you use. If  
you're using territory scoring, you will get the exact same  
(relative) score unless one player passes multiple times, which  
shouldn't happen in a play-out with a beginner who doesn't  
understand what is going on.


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Re: OT: Teaching Go (was Re: [computer-go] Re: Disputes under Japanese rules)

2008-09-17 Thread Ross Werner

Peter Drake wrote:
I'm inclined to agree, but it bothers me to have to explain life and  
death before scoring. Life and death therefore become part of the  
rules rather than an emergent consequences of the rules . I want to  
be able to give a tiny set of rules and then let players loose to  
discover things on their own.


(I guess now that the thread is marked OT, I can feel less guilty about 
continuing it ...)


I agree. I typically explain life and death to beginners at the very 
beginning, in this way:


1) I place single stones on the board; one in the middle, on on the 
edge, and one in the corner. Taking as many moves as you like, capture 
my stones. Often I'll do this before explaining anything at all other 
than a basic overview of the game. If they use more than the required 
number of stones (e.g. two for the corner stone) to capture, I'll explain.


2) I place groups of stones on the board, again in the middle, edge, and 
corner. Each group has exactly one eye. Again, taking as many moves as 
you like, capture my stones. I let them put stones on the board to 
capture, making sure that they place the one in the eye last (and again 
explaining further if there is any confusion).


3) Finally, I place groups of stones on the board, middle, edge, and 
corner, giving each group two eyes. Taking as many moves as you like, 
capture my stones. Typically, after they've surrounded the outside, 
they realize they can't capture my stones no matter how many moves they 
make in a row.


This both quickly shows a number of important Go concepts (including 
life and death), as well as shows that the idea of life and death is an 
emergent consequence of the rules, not a rule itself. It also helps 
explain why certain shapes (such as groups with shared eyes, or false 
eyes) are alive or dead, without having to come up with complicated 
explanations of what the definition of an eye is.


In fact, I started teaching Go this way when an interested beginner 
asked me how you know whether a group of stones is alive. At first, I 
started to talk about two eyes, but then I thought of all the edge cases 
involved (such as four lines of stones along the edges of the board, 
with the corners empty ... can you really say those stones have two 
eyes?). Then I thought about Benson's algorithm, but realized that was 
way overkill for talking to a beginner. Then I realized the simplest 
explanation--given as many moves in row as you want, can you capture the 
stones? If not, the stones are unconditionally alive.


Of course, there are other groups we call alive that are not 
*unconditionally* alive, but that's merely a shortcut in terminology 
that means, No matter what our opponent plays, we can respond to make 
the group unconditionally alive. But this concept can still, in my 
opinion, be more clearly taught when the concept of unconditionally 
alive is well-understood.



And, of course, once a beginner understands life and death in this 
manner, playing out disputed groups is the most natural way to determine 
the life-or-death status of a group. (And, I submit, the best way no 
matter what ruleset you're using.)


~ Ross
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