Re: [Computer-go] alternative for cgos
Thanks everyone for all the feedback! Sorry I hijacked the thread! There are definitely some big pros and cons to a hosted, containerized environment for Go bots. I've replied to some comments below: Won’t hosting limit your usability? With cgos I can build and immediately test on cgos on my development machine. With your service, how do I get my new executable to run? You're absolutely right. The workflow for developers will have some additional overhead. The nice thing, though, is that Docker is very good at providing a way for an application to run virtually anywhere in a consistent fashion. That is, if you can get your bot running in a Docker container on your own machine, then it's pretty likely that it'll run on Baduk.io's Docker host without a hitch. If my engine uses a GPU or is a multinode cluster, how does that run on your docker service? Right now, I don't have plans for supporting such bots. But as Urban Hafner replied, it puts everyone on a level playing field--all bots have access to the same exact resources. As some have noted, maybe that means Baduk.io wouldn't serve the same purpose as CGOS. That's fine by me. At first, I want Baduk.io to be a place where players, especially beginners can get a few games in against bots. Because the bots are hosted, I'm not limited in the number of simultaneous games I can play against one bot. As far as I understand it, it GNU Go is playing against five different people on KGS, that means that there are five different instances of GNU Go running on people's machines someone in the world. If someone else wants to play, they can't. Also, bots that aren't currently playing a game can be terminated and won't consume resources. Starting and stopping containers is so fast that I can afford to only start bots immediately after its opponent plays, request a single move, and terminate it. Anyway, Baduk.io is largely only a proof-of-concept right now--I'll have to post a message to the list when I get a little further working on it. On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 8:33 AM, Joshua Shriver jshri...@gmail.com wrote: If you can send me a binary that would be greatly appreciated. Trying to build some anchors now. -Josh On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Hideki Kato hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp wrote: Shilver, I'll be able to run FatMan1, the anchor for 9x9, on my site, if necessary. Or, it's also possible to send you its binary and password so that you can run it on your site. Hideki Joshua Shriver: CAEdmgvYkFd-tDGL7TxYd55_bWpNBK4gk_VLBNHpWto= xwb5...@mail.gmail.com: I'll try and get CGOS back online before this weekend. Technically it should be running now, but there were several issues. In order to use it now you take the cgos client for your architecture and you have to specify cgos.computergo.org manually since the binaries are hardcoded to the old boardspace address. I've had some troubles unbundling the binaries and rebuilding the executables with TCL. Rankings are also an issue as well which is something I'll have to change in the code to make sure anchors and their predefined ELO ratings are used. Will try and make a better write-up on how to connect. Hopefully this weekend I should have the anchors running 24/7 and some people can try connecting. I'll flush the old data and in terms of games and we'll start with a fresh slate. Though all the data even from years past are still available though for historic reasons and for anyone who wants the SGF's. -Josh On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 5:47 AM, folkert folk...@vanheusden.com wrote: Hi, I have the feeling that cgos won't come back in even the distant future so I was wondering if there are any alternatives? E.g. a server that constantly lets go engines play against each other and then determines an elo rating for them. Folkert van Heusden -- Afraid of irssi? Scared of bitchx? Does xchat gives you bad shivers? In all these cases take a look at http://www.vanheusden.com/fi/ maybe even try it or use it for all your day-to-day IRC conversations! --- Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- Hideki Kato mailto:hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list
Re: [Computer-go] alternative for cgos
I'll try and get CGOS back online before this weekend. Technically it should be running now, but there were several issues. In order to use it now you take the cgos client for your architecture and you have to specify cgos.computergo.org manually since the binaries are hardcoded to the old boardspace address. I've had some troubles unbundling the binaries and rebuilding the executables with TCL. Rankings are also an issue as well which is something I'll have to change in the code to make sure anchors and their predefined ELO ratings are used. Will try and make a better write-up on how to connect. Hopefully this weekend I should have the anchors running 24/7 and some people can try connecting. I'll flush the old data and in terms of games and we'll start with a fresh slate. Though all the data even from years past are still available though for historic reasons and for anyone who wants the SGF's. -Josh On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 5:47 AM, folkert folk...@vanheusden.com wrote: Hi, I have the feeling that cgos won't come back in even the distant future so I was wondering if there are any alternatives? E.g. a server that constantly lets go engines play against each other and then determines an elo rating for them. Folkert van Heusden -- Afraid of irssi? Scared of bitchx? Does xchat gives you bad shivers? In all these cases take a look at http://www.vanheusden.com/fi/ maybe even try it or use it for all your day-to-day IRC conversations! --- Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
[Computer-go] CGOS anchor engines
Anyone have a list of stable, freely downloadable Go engines that I could use as anchors? Name/download/ELO rating would be appreciated. Figured worse case I'd use gnugo for an anchor but would like to have a couple of varying strength. They can run on Windows or Linux. -Josh ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] alternative for cgos
Alas, the limitations of a hosted environment would make participating in Baduk.io a non-starter for me. It is much better to build a selection of standard bots and run tests on my own hardware. Which is what I have done in the absence of CGOS. IMO, running using one’s own hardware/OS/language is a requirement. From: Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Chris LaRose Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:05 PM To: computer-go@computer-go.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] alternative for cgos Thanks everyone for all the feedback! Sorry I hijacked the thread! There are definitely some big pros and cons to a hosted, containerized environment for Go bots. I've replied to some comments below: Won’t hosting limit your usability? With cgos I can build and immediately test on cgos on my development machine. With your service, how do I get my new executable to run? You're absolutely right. The workflow for developers will have some additional overhead. The nice thing, though, is that Docker is very good at providing a way for an application to run virtually anywhere in a consistent fashion. That is, if you can get your bot running in a Docker container on your own machine, then it's pretty likely that it'll run on Baduk.io's Docker host without a hitch. If my engine uses a GPU or is a multinode cluster, how does that run on your docker service? Right now, I don't have plans for supporting such bots. But as Urban Hafner replied, it puts everyone on a level playing field--all bots have access to the same exact resources. As some have noted, maybe that means Baduk.io wouldn't serve the same purpose as CGOS. That's fine by me. At first, I want Baduk.io to be a place where players, especially beginners can get a few games in against bots. Because the bots are hosted, I'm not limited in the number of simultaneous games I can play against one bot. As far as I understand it, it GNU Go is playing against five different people on KGS, that means that there are five different instances of GNU Go running on people's machines someone in the world. If someone else wants to play, they can't. Also, bots that aren't currently playing a game can be terminated and won't consume resources. Starting and stopping containers is so fast that I can afford to only start bots immediately after its opponent plays, request a single move, and terminate it. Anyway, Baduk.io is largely only a proof-of-concept right now--I'll have to post a message to the list when I get a little further working on it. On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 8:33 AM, Joshua Shriver jshri...@gmail.com mailto:jshri...@gmail.com wrote: If you can send me a binary that would be greatly appreciated. Trying to build some anchors now. -Josh On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Hideki Kato hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp mailto:hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp wrote: Shilver, I'll be able to run FatMan1, the anchor for 9x9, on my site, if necessary. Or, it's also possible to send you its binary and password so that you can run it on your site. Hideki Joshua Shriver: CAEdmgvYkFd-tDGL7TxYd55_bWpNBK4gk_VLBNHpWto=xwb5...@mail.gmail.com mailto:xwb5...@mail.gmail.com : I'll try and get CGOS back online before this weekend. Technically it should be running now, but there were several issues. In order to use it now you take the cgos client for your architecture and you have to specify cgos.computergo.org http://cgos.computergo.org manually since the binaries are hardcoded to the old boardspace address. I've had some troubles unbundling the binaries and rebuilding the executables with TCL. Rankings are also an issue as well which is something I'll have to change in the code to make sure anchors and their predefined ELO ratings are used. Will try and make a better write-up on how to connect. Hopefully this weekend I should have the anchors running 24/7 and some people can try connecting. I'll flush the old data and in terms of games and we'll start with a fresh slate. Though all the data even from years past are still available though for historic reasons and for anyone who wants the SGF's. -Josh On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 5:47 AM, folkert folk...@vanheusden.com mailto:folk...@vanheusden.com wrote: Hi, I have the feeling that cgos won't come back in even the distant future so I was wondering if there are any alternatives? E.g. a server that constantly lets go engines play against each other and then determines an elo rating for them. Folkert van Heusden -- Afraid of irssi? Scared of bitchx? Does xchat gives you bad shivers? In all these cases take a look at http://www.vanheusden.com/fi/ maybe even try it or use it for all your day-to-day IRC conversations! --- Phone: +31-6-41278122 tel:%2B31-6-41278122 , PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com http://www.vanheusden.com
Re: [Computer-go] alternative for cgos
I can see both advantages and disadvantages to this system. The advantages are that I don't need to have a computer to run the system, and that (presumably) all bots have the same resources at their disposal, so that would level the playing field. The downsides are of course that the bot needs to run on Linux, and that it probably takes a while to get a new bot added and/or updated. The advantage of CGOS was that you could add a new bot to the mix within seconds. Urban On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 8:18 AM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote: Won’t hosting limit your usability? With cgos I can build and immediately test on cgos on my development machine. With your service, how do I get my new executable to run? If my engine uses a GPU or is a multinode cluster, how does that run on your docker service? David *From:* Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris LaRose *Sent:* Monday, January 12, 2015 5:35 PM *To:* computer-go@computer-go.org *Subject:* Re: [Computer-go] alternative for cgos Hi, I'm actually working on something similar at http://baduk.io. Right now, you can log in an play against a handful of bots over the web, but one day I'd love to make it so you can add your own bots to let them compete against the others. It's not quite ready for the public, but I'm working to get something small working quickly. Unlike CGOS, the bots are all hosted--they all run inside Docker (http://docker.io/) containers. The Dockerfiles I've written for a few public bots are available at my github repository https://github.com/baduk-io/ai-dockerfiles. What sorts of things would you expect from such a service? I was planning on modeling baduk.io after CGOS in a lot of ways as far as the rules that are used (area scoring, no dead stones removed, etc), and distinct ratings for 9x9, 13x13, and 19x19 boards. What sorts of improvements do you think could be made in a new service? Do you have a preference for ELO ratings over kyu/dan ratings? Chris LaRose On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 2:47 AM, folkert folk...@vanheusden.com wrote: Hi, I have the feeling that cgos won't come back in even the distant future so I was wondering if there are any alternatives? E.g. a server that constantly lets go engines play against each other and then determines an elo rating for them. Folkert van Heusden -- Afraid of irssi? Scared of bitchx? Does xchat gives you bad shivers? In all these cases take a look at http://www.vanheusden.com/fi/ maybe even try it or use it for all your day-to-day IRC conversations! --- Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] alternative for cgos
I would be interested in participating, particularly as a containerized environment puts me on a more even footing with projects which have a lot more hardware to throw at the problem. Plus, I am in the process of porting my engine from Java to C# and will need to rewrite the interface to the KGS go server anyway, so I might as well add another. Hopefully the additional work to port the Windows C# version of ScratchGo to Mono would be minimal. Woody On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 7:07 AM, Urban Hafner cont...@urbanhafner.com wrote: I can see both advantages and disadvantages to this system. The advantages are that I don't need to have a computer to run the system, and that (presumably) all bots have the same resources at their disposal, so that would level the playing field. The downsides are of course that the bot needs to run on Linux, and that it probably takes a while to get a new bot added and/or updated. The advantage of CGOS was that you could add a new bot to the mix within seconds. Urban On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 8:18 AM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote: Won’t hosting limit your usability? With cgos I can build and immediately test on cgos on my development machine. With your service, how do I get my new executable to run? If my engine uses a GPU or is a multinode cluster, how does that run on your docker service? David *From:* Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris LaRose *Sent:* Monday, January 12, 2015 5:35 PM *To:* computer-go@computer-go.org *Subject:* Re: [Computer-go] alternative for cgos Hi, I'm actually working on something similar at http://baduk.io. Right now, you can log in an play against a handful of bots over the web, but one day I'd love to make it so you can add your own bots to let them compete against the others. It's not quite ready for the public, but I'm working to get something small working quickly. Unlike CGOS, the bots are all hosted--they all run inside Docker (http://docker.io/) containers. The Dockerfiles I've written for a few public bots are available at my github repository https://github.com/baduk-io/ai-dockerfiles. What sorts of things would you expect from such a service? I was planning on modeling baduk.io after CGOS in a lot of ways as far as the rules that are used (area scoring, no dead stones removed, etc), and distinct ratings for 9x9, 13x13, and 19x19 boards. What sorts of improvements do you think could be made in a new service? Do you have a preference for ELO ratings over kyu/dan ratings? Chris LaRose On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 2:47 AM, folkert folk...@vanheusden.com wrote: Hi, I have the feeling that cgos won't come back in even the distant future so I was wondering if there are any alternatives? E.g. a server that constantly lets go engines play against each other and then determines an elo rating for them. Folkert van Heusden -- Afraid of irssi? Scared of bitchx? Does xchat gives you bad shivers? In all these cases take a look at http://www.vanheusden.com/fi/ maybe even try it or use it for all your day-to-day IRC conversations! --- Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] alternative for cgos
On Jan 13, 2015, at 4:52 AM, Woody Folsom woody.fol...@gmail.com wrote: I would be interested in participating, particularly as a containerized environment puts me on a more even footing with projects which have a lot more hardware to throw at the problem. That’s an interesting setting for a tournament but not really a replacement for CGOS, which was mostly used for testing. Christoph ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] alternative for cgos
Shilver, I'll be able to run FatMan1, the anchor for 9x9, on my site, if necessary. Or, it's also possible to send you its binary and password so that you can run it on your site. Hideki Joshua Shriver: CAEdmgvYkFd-tDGL7TxYd55_bWpNBK4gk_VLBNHpWto=xwb5...@mail.gmail.com: I'll try and get CGOS back online before this weekend. Technically it should be running now, but there were several issues. In order to use it now you take the cgos client for your architecture and you have to specify cgos.computergo.org manually since the binaries are hardcoded to the old boardspace address. I've had some troubles unbundling the binaries and rebuilding the executables with TCL. Rankings are also an issue as well which is something I'll have to change in the code to make sure anchors and their predefined ELO ratings are used. Will try and make a better write-up on how to connect. Hopefully this weekend I should have the anchors running 24/7 and some people can try connecting. I'll flush the old data and in terms of games and we'll start with a fresh slate. Though all the data even from years past are still available though for historic reasons and for anyone who wants the SGF's. -Josh On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 5:47 AM, folkert folk...@vanheusden.com wrote: Hi, I have the feeling that cgos won't come back in even the distant future so I was wondering if there are any alternatives? E.g. a server that constantly lets go engines play against each other and then determines an elo rating for them. Folkert van Heusden -- Afraid of irssi? Scared of bitchx? Does xchat gives you bad shivers? In all these cases take a look at http://www.vanheusden.com/fi/ maybe even try it or use it for all your day-to-day IRC conversations! --- Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- Hideki Kato mailto:hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] alternative for cgos
If you can send me a binary that would be greatly appreciated. Trying to build some anchors now. -Josh On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Hideki Kato hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp wrote: Shilver, I'll be able to run FatMan1, the anchor for 9x9, on my site, if necessary. Or, it's also possible to send you its binary and password so that you can run it on your site. Hideki Joshua Shriver: CAEdmgvYkFd-tDGL7TxYd55_bWpNBK4gk_VLBNHpWto=xwb5...@mail.gmail.com: I'll try and get CGOS back online before this weekend. Technically it should be running now, but there were several issues. In order to use it now you take the cgos client for your architecture and you have to specify cgos.computergo.org manually since the binaries are hardcoded to the old boardspace address. I've had some troubles unbundling the binaries and rebuilding the executables with TCL. Rankings are also an issue as well which is something I'll have to change in the code to make sure anchors and their predefined ELO ratings are used. Will try and make a better write-up on how to connect. Hopefully this weekend I should have the anchors running 24/7 and some people can try connecting. I'll flush the old data and in terms of games and we'll start with a fresh slate. Though all the data even from years past are still available though for historic reasons and for anyone who wants the SGF's. -Josh On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 5:47 AM, folkert folk...@vanheusden.com wrote: Hi, I have the feeling that cgos won't come back in even the distant future so I was wondering if there are any alternatives? E.g. a server that constantly lets go engines play against each other and then determines an elo rating for them. Folkert van Heusden -- Afraid of irssi? Scared of bitchx? Does xchat gives you bad shivers? In all these cases take a look at http://www.vanheusden.com/fi/ maybe even try it or use it for all your day-to-day IRC conversations! --- Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- Hideki Kato mailto:hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
