Re: [Computer-go] EGC2015 Events
Just curious, why in the statistics it is mentioned 1475 players and in the list only 602. Does the list mention only players having playing recently ? 2015-07-29 21:32 GMT+02:00 Rémi Coulom remi.cou...@free.fr: Lee Hajin is also quite a bit weaker than Yoda Norimoto or Cho Chikun. BTW, this gives me the opportunity to advertise my new web site that rates go professionals with the WHR rating algorithm and go4go.net data: http://www.goratings.org/ Rank/Name/Elo 108 Yoda Norimoto 2274 183 Cho Chikun 2188 448 Lee Hajin 1957 Rémi On 07/29/2015 09:22 PM, Petr Baudis wrote: Indeed. We (well, mainly I) thought that since Aya is running on a weaker computer, 5 stones might be about right, but now I'm a bit worried that I made the game too tough for white after all. Still, there's a big audience (surprised us a bit), maybe 150 people, and they seem to be enjoying it! On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 09:14:14PM +0200, Rémi Coulom wrote: Great! Thanks. 5 stones against Aya is brave. On 07/29/2015 08:21 PM, Petr Baudis wrote: Hi! There are several Computer Go events on EGC2015. There was a small tournament of programs, played out on identical hardware by each, won by Aya: https://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?sort=sid=981 Then, one of the games, Aya vs. Many Faces, was reviewed by Lukas Podpera 6d: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3Lk1qVoiYM Right now, Hajin Lee 3p (known for her live commentaries on Youtube as Haylee) is playing Aya (giving 5 stones) and commenting live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka2ilmu7Eo4 ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Mental Imagery in Go - playlist
RE: CNNs: They can be, and have been, successfully applied to movies as well. See http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rahuls/pub/cvpr2014-deepvideo-rahuls.pdf Also, in the first .pdf I linked you, the input layer has a notion of age of the stones. For example, this stone was played 5 moves ago, this one 3 moves ago, etc. So, it is not a strictly static snapshot of a board. In any event, the best performance will probably not come ONLY from CNNs (although its prediction accuracy is surprisingly high), but the marriage of CNNs to monte-carlo tree search, etc. My sense is that we will continue clinging to romantic notions of human intelligence (shapes, proverbs, etc.) until we eventually get ground to dust in a Deep-Blue style competition. Not too long now :) On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 9:33 PM, djhbrown . djhbr...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the replies to my first message; i looked at the links you supplied and comment on them later in this email. I noticed that Google does not show you the playlist when you look at episode 1 of the series (of currently 3 videos), so you may have missed the second two episodes which are more significant than the first. Here is a link to the playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S episode 2 introduces mental images and episode 3 is a conversation between Hajin Lee and me about her thoughts on a couple of moves early in one of her games. It includes my first attempt at picturing her thoughts, both as symbolic information structures and as paint overlays on the game board. My hope is that the former might one day become the basis of symbolic generic heuristic rules that could be used to generate and evaluate move candidates and the latter could evolve into useful instructional materials for people learning the game - so that they can, so to speak, look through the eyes of an expert like Hajin. To these ends, i need the assistance of people with better skills than me at (a) drawing pictures, (b) software and (c) Go. I think that programming is like gymnastics - best done by the young, with their abundance of enthusiasm and energy. I enjoyed programming 50 years ago, but i'm too old in the tooth now to burn midnight oil. Now to your replies: Folkert: Stop is a good start but as you already know, there's a long way to go yet :) Steven: I expect there is a future for CNN's in recognising static images, but my gut feel is that a position in a Go game is more like one frame of a movie; as such, it requires a technology that can interpret dynamic images - maybe work being done in automatous car driving can contribute something useful to Go playing? Nevertheless, I was surprised by the many humanlike moves of DCNNigo on KGS (until it revealed its brittleness). To be sure, drawing upon the moves of experts is one way of gaining expertise, but my feeling is that one should try to abstract the position - to generalise from the examples - so that general knowledge can be formed and applied to novel situations. It may be that a CNN arguably does do some kind of generalisation - but can it, for example, characterise something as basic as the waist of a keima? Ingo: Tanja may be the kind of artist who could produce nice drawings of Hajin's mental images, perhaps based on my own crude sketches? It would be unpaid work though... I liked Fuego's and Jonathan's territory pictures, which reminded me of Zobrist's early work on computing influence. [Albert Zobrist (*1969*). *A Model of Visual Organisation for the Game of Go*. Proceedings of the Spring Joint Computer Conference, Vol. 34, pp. 103-112.] However, whereas being able to picture influence and territory is one of my objectives, i want to try to picture the richness of what Hajin (aka Haylee) sees rather than the result of a primitive computation. For example, at 10:24 in episode 3, she points out that when black is on J4 instead of K4, there is an opening in black's lower side for white to invade. This tiny gap makes all the difference to the dynamic meaning of the position a few moves prior (ie whether it is sensible for white to approach Q3 at Q5). One of the major influences on my own thinking about Go programming is the seminal work Thought and Choice in Chess by Adriaan de Groot which i reckon is well worth a read by anyone interested in programming Go https://books.google.com.au/books?id=b2G1CRfNqFYCpg=PA99 --- personal website http://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/home ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Mental Imagery in Go - playlist
Thanks for the link to the CMU CNN paper, Steven, which was very interesting. I noted with some pleasure that they included a fovea stream - although maybe that is a bit of a misnomer, as whereas animal foveas roam around the image, building (i think) a symbolic structural description of the picture, theirs was fixed in the middle. I wonder whether a roaming fovea CNN could be a successful group connectedness classifier? I can envisage the fovea being moved around by a higher-level routine that uses a symbolic description of the game situation to identify which areas/groups it wants it to investigate. Incidentally, i'm unconvinced that including an age of stone feature is valuable, because although the future is dynamic, the past is set in stone (sic); Go teachers sometimes talk about tewari analysis to demonstrate when an old stone becomes inefficiently placed by a certain line of play. As to romantic notions of human superiority, i personally feel that such opinions are not so much romantic as hubristic - or perhaps paranoid! However, i have to admit that in 1979 i was a false prophet when i claimed the brute-force approach is a no-hoper for Go, even if computers become a hundred times more powerful than they are now [Brown, D and S. Dowsey, S. The Challenge of Go. *New Scientist* 81, 303-305, 1979.]. Back in those days, i never imagined that something so blind as Monte-Carlo would become more perceptive than even my weak eye, let alone being able to defeat a pro (albeit with a 5-stone handicap), as Zen just did on KGS. By the way, i've long since lost my paper copy of my paper; you have access to an academic library - would you be able to retrieve and scan a copy of it, just for my nostalgia? -- personal website http://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/home ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] EGC2015 Events
Yes. The list contains only players that have at least one win, one loss, and one game in the past year. I will also produce historical rating lists for each month of the past. That will be online soon. Rémi On 08/03/2015 04:44 PM, Xavier Combelle wrote: Just curious, why in the statistics it is mentioned 1475 players and in the list only 602. Does the list mention only players having playing recently ? 2015-07-29 21:32 GMT+02:00 Rémi Coulom remi.cou...@free.fr mailto:remi.cou...@free.fr: Lee Hajin is also quite a bit weaker than Yoda Norimoto or Cho Chikun. BTW, this gives me the opportunity to advertise my new web site that rates go professionals with the WHR rating algorithm and go4go.net http://go4go.net data: http://www.goratings.org/ Rank/Name/Elo 108 Yoda Norimoto 2274 183 Cho Chikun 2188 448 Lee Hajin 1957 Rémi On 07/29/2015 09:22 PM, Petr Baudis wrote: Indeed. We (well, mainly I) thought that since Aya is running on a weaker computer, 5 stones might be about right, but now I'm a bit worried that I made the game too tough for white after all. Still, there's a big audience (surprised us a bit), maybe 150 people, and they seem to be enjoying it! On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 09:14:14PM +0200, Rémi Coulom wrote: Great! Thanks. 5 stones against Aya is brave. On 07/29/2015 08:21 PM, Petr Baudis wrote: Hi! There are several Computer Go events on EGC2015. There was a small tournament of programs, played out on identical hardware by each, won by Aya: https://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?sort=sid=981 Then, one of the games, Aya vs. Many Faces, was reviewed by Lukas Podpera 6d: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3Lk1qVoiYM Right now, Hajin Lee 3p (known for her live commentaries on Youtube as Haylee) is playing Aya (giving 5 stones) and commenting live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka2ilmu7Eo4 ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Rating systems in thin/sparsely connected populations of players
Hi, The problem is not wheter to use Elo ratings or not, but rather how to compute them. The intro of my WHR paper gives an overview of different possible approaches: http://www.remi-coulom.fr/WHR/WHR.pdf The algorithms I compare in my paper all have a major flaw: they consider the variability of ratings is the same for the whole population. In practice, the ratings of beginners tend to vary much faster than the rating of experts. A good rating system must take this into consideration if it has to be applied to a population that contains beginners and experts. If you population has strongly connected groups that are sparsely connected to each other, then you should avoid incremental rating systems. If you want academic papers, Mark Glickman's web page has many more: http://www.glicko.net/index.html Rémi On 08/03/2015 02:22 AM, Aguido Davis wrote: Good morning. We're looking at replacing the Australian national ranking system, and the question has come up: how many players and how many recent games/player are needed for ELO to generate good strength ratings? (Questions begged: what does a good set of ratings even mean? does it matter if the play graph (edges = games, vertices = players) is well-connected or quite cliquey? is ELO the last word in rating algorithms? do humans behave differently from bots when they know they're being rated?) Does anybody know of a good academic paper, or ideally, someone's thesis? My apologies if this is off-topic, but it's an interesting computation related to go... Cheers, Horatio ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
