Re: [Computer-go] re comments on Life and Death

[Robert Jasiek]

On 10.09.2015 08:24, David Fotland wrote:

I would say rather, that expert systems are dead in Go because many smart and 
talented people, including professional experts, worked diligently for two 
decades on this approach and none were able to get stronger than about 5 kyu.  
This is a strong experimental result, not an opinion.


This says nothing about the potential of expert systems when done right. 
General talent, professional expert system designers or professional 
players are insufficient. What is needed is a very good understanding of 
go theory on all topics of go theory as expert system knowledge.


--
robert jasiek
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Re: [Computer-go] re comments on Life and Death

[Jim O'Flaherty]

I'm very much looking forward to your sharing your progress with us.
Perhaps you could give some more concrete examples of what you have done
already; i.e. where you have moved from the messy human
linguistic/cognitive "principles" to something much more formal?

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 2:23 AM, Robert Jasiek  wrote:

> On 10.09.2015 08:24, David Fotland wrote:
>
>> I would say rather, that expert systems are dead in Go because many smart
>> and talented people, including professional experts, worked diligently for
>> two decades on this approach and none were able to get stronger than about
>> 5 kyu.  This is a strong experimental result, not an opinion.
>>
>
> This says nothing about the potential of expert systems when done right.
> General talent, professional expert system designers or professional
> players are insufficient. What is needed is a very good understanding of go
> theory on all topics of go theory as expert system knowledge.
>
>
> --
> robert jasiek
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>
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Re: [Computer-go] re comments on Life and Death

[Robert Jasiek]

On 10.09.2015 10:29, Jim O'Flaherty wrote:

Perhaps you could give some more concrete examples of what you have done
already; i.e. where you have moved from the messy human
linguistic/cognitive "principles" to something much more formal?


In my principles (or other theory), the degree of ambuigity varies from 
formal to ordinary language.


Example of a formal formula:   dF =? 0
where F is 'fighting liberties' and the formula applies to what I call 
'class 1 semeais'.


Example of (seemingly) ordinary language in a principle about defending 
life in a fight: "Maintain connection of a group's important strings."
This is not ordinary language though but I use 'connection' and 
'important string' as consistent terms in all my books, where the former 
is defined but the latter is (still) undefined.


Consistent use of the same terms and defined concepts everywhere and 
well chosen definitions for the basic terms remove much of the mess and 
enable hierarchic design and use of principles etc.


For several hundred further examples of definitions and principles, see 
my books and papers. For my first six of 11 books and earlier papers / 
messages, see the short overview 
http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/RobertJasiekGoTheoryResearch.html


--
robert jasiek

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Re: [Computer-go] KGS access problem

[Igor Polyakov]

Try disabling https everywhere extension and accessing the unsecure site 
at http://www.gokgs.com/


but yes, it would be better if they fixed this

On 2015-09-10 5:31, "Ingo Althöfer" wrote:

Hello,

I have problems to access the KGS server. My Firefox 40.0.3
(under Windows 8.1) is even not allowing me to visit the website
www.gokgs.com.
Argument: "Diffie-Hellman key is too weak"

Does someone here know which person at KGS would be the right
one to inform about this problem?

Thanks in advance, Ingo.
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[Computer-go] KGS access problem

[Ingo Althöfer]

Hello,

I have problems to access the KGS server. My Firefox 40.0.3
(under Windows 8.1) is even not allowing me to visit the website
www.gokgs.com.
Argument: "Diffie-Hellman key is too weak"

Does someone here know which person at KGS would be the right
one to inform about this problem?

Thanks in advance, Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] KGS access problem

[Nick Wedd]

This has already been reported.  We don't expect it to be fixed any time
soon.

It only happens if you try to use https access; http access is unaffected.

Two workarounds are possible.  The easy one is to use an old or inferior
browser,
which does not care about the weakness of a 512-bit key.  A more thorough
workaround is to find somewhere in your browser settings that you can set
it to
accept 512-bit keys; and then, if you are worried, undo the change after
you have
finished accessing gokgs.com

Nick

On 10 September 2015 at 13:31, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have problems to access the KGS server. My Firefox 40.0.3
> (under Windows 8.1) is even not allowing me to visit the website
> www.gokgs.com.
> Argument: "Diffie-Hellman key is too weak"
>
> Does someone here know which person at KGS would be the right
> one to inform about this problem?
>
> Thanks in advance, Ingo.
> ___
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> Computer-go@computer-go.org
> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go




-- 
Nick Wedd  mapr...@gmail.com
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Re: [Computer-go] re comments on Life and Death

[Jim O'Flaherty]

Awesome! Tysvm for replying and posting the link.

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 4:26 AM, Robert Jasiek  wrote:

> On 10.09.2015 10:29, Jim O'Flaherty wrote:
>
>> Perhaps you could give some more concrete examples of what you have done
>> already; i.e. where you have moved from the messy human
>> linguistic/cognitive "principles" to something much more formal?
>>
>
> In my principles (or other theory), the degree of ambuigity varies from
> formal to ordinary language.
>
> Example of a formal formula:   dF =? 0
> where F is 'fighting liberties' and the formula applies to what I call
> 'class 1 semeais'.
>
> Example of (seemingly) ordinary language in a principle about defending
> life in a fight: "Maintain connection of a group's important strings."
> This is not ordinary language though but I use 'connection' and 'important
> string' as consistent terms in all my books, where the former is defined
> but the latter is (still) undefined.
>
> Consistent use of the same terms and defined concepts everywhere and well
> chosen definitions for the basic terms remove much of the mess and enable
> hierarchic design and use of principles etc.
>
> For several hundred further examples of definitions and principles, see my
> books and papers. For my first six of 11 books and earlier papers /
> messages, see the short overview
> http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/RobertJasiekGoTheoryResearch.html
>
>
> --
> robert jasiek
>
> ___
> Computer-go mailing list
> Computer-go@computer-go.org
> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>
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Re: [Computer-go] KGS access problem

[Darren Cook]

> I have problems to access the KGS server. My Firefox 40.0.3
> (under Windows 8.1) is even not allowing me to visit the website
> www.gokgs.com.
> Argument: "Diffie-Hellman key is too weak"

Here is how to have Firefox not be so fussy:


http://letusexplain.blogspot.co.uk/2015/08/solved-server-has-weak-ephemeral-diffie.html

There seems no workaround for Chrome, so chrome users will still
provider the consumer pressure on server operators to install a more
secure key.

Here is background of what it is defending against:

http://arstechnica.com/security/2015/05/https-crippling-attack-threatens-tens-of-thousands-of-web-and-mail-servers/

I.e. my understanding is that it allows a hacker to user a
man-in-the-middle attack, so effectively https with a 512-bit key is as
secure as http... but only if you believe someone is actively trying to
eavesdrop on your browser session. In the case of IGS, it could be that
the NSA is trying to sniff out people using the Chinese Opening, as a
way to build up a list of potential commie activists, so lets hope the
SSL certificate is fixed soon...

Darren

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Re: [Computer-go] re good article on playout ending

[David Fotland]

I never tried to optimize stopping, so my stopping rule is very conservative.  
Many Faces stops at twice the number of points on the board, or if the mercy 
rule triggers.  The mercy rule requires one side to have many more stones on 
the board than the other (at least 1/3 of the number of points on the board 
more).

 

David

 

From: Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of 
Erik van der Werf
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2015 9:18 AM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] re good article on playout ending

 

Steenvreter stops its playouts when it detects a proven win or loss. The 
evaluation function it uses is an improved version of what I made to solve the 
small boards. I once tried adding the mercy rule, but it did not improve the 
program.

 

Erik

 

 

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 5:46 PM, Peter Drake  wrote:

I don't know of an article, but unless your ending detection is VERY fast, it's 
better to just finish the playout.

 

One possibility is a "mercy threshold": if one player's stone count (which you 
update incrementally) far exceeds the other, declare the player with more 
stones the winner. The relevant class from Orego is attached.

 

 

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 7:53 AM, Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira  wrote:

Does anyone know of a good article on ending a MCTS playout early, outcome 
estimation, the quality of interrupted outcomes, and so on?
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-- 

Peter Drake
https://sites.google.com/a/lclark.edu/drake/


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Re: [Computer-go] re comments on Life and Death

[David Fotland]

Yes, in the old engine, I roll everything up into a single number, with a 
resolution of 1/100th of a point (only so the total score would fit in a 16 bit 
integer on the 16 bit machine I used for development in 1982).

 

I would say rather, that expert systems are dead in Go because many smart and 
talented people, including professional experts, worked diligently for two 
decades on this approach and none were able to get stronger than about 5 kyu.  
This is a strong experimental result, not an opinion.

 

David

 

From: Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of 
Petri Pitkanen
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2015 12:53 AM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] re comments on Life and Death

 

David said "estimate final score" which implies that all relevant things are 
factored in, merely the unit of estimation is territory. Just like in chess 
there are several things factored in - other than material - and all are 
estimated as pawns.



I guess expert systems really are a dead  end in Go. Too many contradicting 
heurestics

 

 

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Re: [Computer-go] re comments on Life and Death

[David Fotland]

No, simple radiation is not the best, although some programs (including mine) 
started with something like this.  I think the best approach was Reiss' Go4++, 
where territory was modelled using connectivity.  If a new stone can be 
connected to a living group of the same color, then this point can't be 
territory of the opposite color.  

David

> -Original Message-
> From: Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On
> Behalf Of Robert Jasiek
> 
> Was your influence function like radiated light? Such would have too
> little meaning.


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