Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Zen!

[David Ongaro]

Hi Nick

> On 07 Apr 2016, at 12:47, Nick Wedd  wrote:
> 
> (What I meant was that some of the people posting to the list that you gave a 
> link to have failed to understand it.)

Yes that's why I gave you a direct link to my comment. But the confusion is 
probably my fault, because I failed to mention that you have to press the 
spoiler button to see the solution (When I see a button I press it, so I didn't 
think about it. In that regard I'm no different to my 14 Month old son…)

To be more specific I think a correction could look like this:

 x . x x . x 9 6 .
 . x o o x 8 5 4 7
 x o o x x 1 o 3 x
 x o x x . 2 x x o
 . o x o x x o o o
 o o o o x o o . o
 o x o x . x o o .
 . x o x x x o o .
 x . x . x x o . o


In round 6 AyaMC played the move above against Fuego9. SGF. This looks hopeless 
for White because his left group has only two liberties. But when black played 
4 he suffers a damezumari himself and he gets only a Seki and therefore losing 
the game.

 x 7 x x 5 x 1 2 6
 9 x o o x a 8 4 3
 x o o x x o o o x
 x o x x . x x x o
 b o x o x x o o o
 o o o o x o o . o
 o x o x . x o o .
 . x o x x x o o .
 x . x . x x o . o

The correct but difficult to find move for black would have been 1 which makes 
miai of 2 and 3 creating another damezumari, this time for white, since he can 
not approach at a before black plays b.

Now that we already spend so much time on an old game it would be interesting 
to know if the current programs can get this right?

Thanks,

David



> On 7 April 2016 at 20:15, David Ongaro  wrote:
> Thanks, but what do you mean by that cheesy comment "Human players can find 
> this hard to understand"? If you want to make a meaningful comment you could 
> say that Fuego didn't understand the situation by playing h8 instead of g9.
> 
> 
> > On 07 Apr 2016, at 11:31, Nick Wedd  wrote:
> >
> > Hi David,
> >
> > Thank you for telling me about this.  I have added a link to the article.
> >
> > Best,
> > Nick
> >
> >
> > On 4 April 2016 at 16:53, David Ongaro  wrote:
> > Sorry for being late to the "game" (but you never specified a deadline till 
> > when you accept corrections). From: 
> > http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/41/index.html
> >
> > > Also in round 6, AyaMC played the move shown to the left, against Fuego9. 
> > > SGF. When I saw this move, I thought "this is hopeless for White, his 
> > > left group only has two liberties". But Black can never quite put the 
> > > two-liberty group in atari, and the marked move ensures that he never 
> > > will be able to. What is particularly impressive is that White knows 
> > > this, and has been working towards it for several moves, ignoring a ko 
> > > threat at a9 and sacrificing stones at b1 and d1.
> >
> >
> > I showed already 2008 in a german Go forum that your intuition was right 
> > and the position was indeed hopeless for white: 
> > http://www.dgob.de/yabbse/index.php?topic=3314.msg153307#msg153307
> >
> >
> > > On 04 Apr 2016, at 06:33, Nick Wedd  wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank you for noticing this. I will correct it when I am back at home and 
> > > can use a real computer.
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> > > On Apr 4, 2016 2:09 PM, "Seo Sanghyeon"  wrote:
> > > 2016-03-31 0:17 GMT+09:00 Nick Wedd :
> > > > My report is at  http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/S16.1/index.html
> > > > As usual, I look forward to hearing your comments and criticisms; 
> > > > though I
> > > > may not respond for a while, I am about to leave for a week's holiday.
> > >
> > > "In round 6, after 87 moves, Zen19S and JulieBot reached the position 
> > > shown
> > > to the right (JulieBot is Black)."
> > >
> > > It seems that Zen19S should be ManyFaces1 instead.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Seo Sanghyeon
> > > ___
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> 
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Zen!

[Nick Wedd]

Ok, I have deleted the cheesy comment.  (What I meant was that some of the
people posting to the list that you gave a link to have failed to
understand it.)

On 7 April 2016 at 20:15, David Ongaro  wrote:

> Thanks, but what do you mean by that cheesy comment "Human players can
> find this hard to understand"? If you want to make a meaningful comment you
> could say that Fuego didn't understand the situation by playing h8 instead
> of g9.
>
>
> > On 07 Apr 2016, at 11:31, Nick Wedd  wrote:
> >
> > Hi David,
> >
> > Thank you for telling me about this.  I have added a link to the article.
> >
> > Best,
> > Nick
> >
> >
> > On 4 April 2016 at 16:53, David Ongaro  wrote:
> > Sorry for being late to the "game" (but you never specified a deadline
> till when you accept corrections). From:
> http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/41/index.html
> >
> > > Also in round 6, AyaMC played the move shown to the left, against
> Fuego9. SGF. When I saw this move, I thought "this is hopeless for White,
> his left group only has two liberties". But Black can never quite put the
> two-liberty group in atari, and the marked move ensures that he never will
> be able to. What is particularly impressive is that White knows this, and
> has been working towards it for several moves, ignoring a ko threat at a9
> and sacrificing stones at b1 and d1.
> >
> >
> > I showed already 2008 in a german Go forum that your intuition was right
> and the position was indeed hopeless for white:
> http://www.dgob.de/yabbse/index.php?topic=3314.msg153307#msg153307
> >
> >
> > > On 04 Apr 2016, at 06:33, Nick Wedd  wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank you for noticing this. I will correct it when I am back at home
> and can use a real computer.
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> > > On Apr 4, 2016 2:09 PM, "Seo Sanghyeon"  wrote:
> > > 2016-03-31 0:17 GMT+09:00 Nick Wedd :
> > > > My report is at  http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/S16.1/index.html
> > > > As usual, I look forward to hearing your comments and criticisms;
> though I
> > > > may not respond for a while, I am about to leave for a week's
> holiday.
> > >
> > > "In round 6, after 87 moves, Zen19S and JulieBot reached the position
> shown
> > > to the right (JulieBot is Black)."
> > >
> > > It seems that Zen19S should be ManyFaces1 instead.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Seo Sanghyeon
> > > ___
> > > Computer-go mailing list
> > > Computer-go@computer-go.org
> > > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
> > > ___
> > > Computer-go mailing list
> > > Computer-go@computer-go.org
> > > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
> >
> > ___
> > Computer-go mailing list
> > Computer-go@computer-go.org
> > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Nick Wedd  mapr...@gmail.com
> > ___
> > Computer-go mailing list
> > Computer-go@computer-go.org
> > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>
> ___
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>



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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Zen!

[David Ongaro]

Thanks, but what do you mean by that cheesy comment "Human players can find 
this hard to understand"? If you want to make a meaningful comment you could 
say that Fuego didn't understand the situation by playing h8 instead of g9.


> On 07 Apr 2016, at 11:31, Nick Wedd  wrote:
> 
> Hi David,
> 
> Thank you for telling me about this.  I have added a link to the article.
> 
> Best,
> Nick
> 
> 
> On 4 April 2016 at 16:53, David Ongaro  wrote:
> Sorry for being late to the "game" (but you never specified a deadline till 
> when you accept corrections). From: 
> http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/41/index.html
> 
> > Also in round 6, AyaMC played the move shown to the left, against Fuego9. 
> > SGF. When I saw this move, I thought "this is hopeless for White, his left 
> > group only has two liberties". But Black can never quite put the 
> > two-liberty group in atari, and the marked move ensures that he never will 
> > be able to. What is particularly impressive is that White knows this, and 
> > has been working towards it for several moves, ignoring a ko threat at a9 
> > and sacrificing stones at b1 and d1.
> 
> 
> I showed already 2008 in a german Go forum that your intuition was right and 
> the position was indeed hopeless for white: 
> http://www.dgob.de/yabbse/index.php?topic=3314.msg153307#msg153307
> 
> 
> > On 04 Apr 2016, at 06:33, Nick Wedd  wrote:
> >
> > Thank you for noticing this. I will correct it when I am back at home and 
> > can use a real computer.
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > On Apr 4, 2016 2:09 PM, "Seo Sanghyeon"  wrote:
> > 2016-03-31 0:17 GMT+09:00 Nick Wedd :
> > > My report is at  http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/S16.1/index.html
> > > As usual, I look forward to hearing your comments and criticisms; though I
> > > may not respond for a while, I am about to leave for a week's holiday.
> >
> > "In round 6, after 87 moves, Zen19S and JulieBot reached the position shown
> > to the right (JulieBot is Black)."
> >
> > It seems that Zen19S should be ManyFaces1 instead.
> >
> > --
> > Seo Sanghyeon
> > ___
> > Computer-go mailing list
> > Computer-go@computer-go.org
> > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
> > ___
> > Computer-go mailing list
> > Computer-go@computer-go.org
> > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Zen!

[Nick Wedd]

Hi David,

Thank you for telling me about this.  I have added a link to the article.

Best,
Nick


On 4 April 2016 at 16:53, David Ongaro  wrote:

> Sorry for being late to the "game" (but you never specified a deadline
> till when you accept corrections). From:
> http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/41/index.html
>
> > Also in round 6, AyaMC played the move shown to the left, against
> Fuego9. SGF. When I saw this move, I thought "this is hopeless for White,
> his left group only has two liberties". But Black can never quite put the
> two-liberty group in atari, and the marked move ensures that he never will
> be able to. What is particularly impressive is that White knows this, and
> has been working towards it for several moves, ignoring a ko threat at a9
> and sacrificing stones at b1 and d1.
>
>
> I showed already 2008 in a german Go forum that your intuition was right
> and the position was indeed hopeless for white:
> http://www.dgob.de/yabbse/index.php?topic=3314.msg153307#msg153307
>
>
> > On 04 Apr 2016, at 06:33, Nick Wedd  wrote:
> >
> > Thank you for noticing this. I will correct it when I am back at home
> and can use a real computer.
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > On Apr 4, 2016 2:09 PM, "Seo Sanghyeon"  wrote:
> > 2016-03-31 0:17 GMT+09:00 Nick Wedd :
> > > My report is at  http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/S16.1/index.html
> > > As usual, I look forward to hearing your comments and criticisms;
> though I
> > > may not respond for a while, I am about to leave for a week's holiday.
> >
> > "In round 6, after 87 moves, Zen19S and JulieBot reached the position
> shown
> > to the right (JulieBot is Black)."
> >
> > It seems that Zen19S should be ManyFaces1 instead.
> >
> > --
> > Seo Sanghyeon
> > ___
> > Computer-go mailing list
> > Computer-go@computer-go.org
> > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
> > ___
> > Computer-go mailing list
> > Computer-go@computer-go.org
> > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>
> ___
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>



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Re: [Computer-go] Operators for Frisbee Go Simulation

[Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira]

Hello Ingo, if possible I'd like an operator for my program. I'd help
him/her remotely before Leiden.

I'm also letting everyone know my program now has the minimum effort for
frisbee Go (https://bitbucket.org/gonmf/matilda/). I'm looking for other
programs that I can test it with. I lack both a sparring partner and
connecting software, so it is likely very poor right now.

On frisbee Go itself I used the following definition:
1. An intended play must be legal -- no playing on top of a stone hoping
it 'falls' to the neighbor positions.
2. Unintentional plays that are illegal are nulled and don't imply a
desire to end the match.
3. The distribution of unintentional plays around the 4 neighbors is
constant even at the border where there are never 4 neighbors; "You hit
the target with prob. p, and its 4 neighbours with probability
(1-p)/4.". The residual probability at the border is not reused for
on-board plays.
4. Probability parameter p cannot be changed midgame, for simplification.
5. Technically, using the GTP, I assumed genmove_reg+play commands are
used, instead of genmove+undo+play or something frisbee specific. This
is probably stating the obvious.

Gonçalo


On 06/04/2016 14:54, "Ingo Althöfer" wrote:
> Hello,
> one of the games in the Computer Olympiad in Leiden
> (June 27 till July 03, 2016) will be "Frisbee Go Simulation"
> on 9x9 boards. 
> 
> I am willing to operate one "foreign" program (David Fotlands
> bot is my first choice). And I will find operators for one 
> or two other programs, when I know until end of next week (the
> operators I have in mind have to make their hotel bookings (special
> rate) rather soon).
> 
> Please, let me know if you need an operator for the Frisbee Go 
> simulation bot.
> 
> Cheers, Ingo.
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