Re: [Computer-go] Lee Sedol's reviews on AlphaGo games

[David Doshay]

Sir,

After 1400 words you get to your point. 
Your point about Monte Carlo techniques is well known to this list.
Your 1400 word digression on neurons and their networks is really not news to 
this list either (in my case there is 5+ years working for NASA doing 
computational neuroscience).

While you are mostly civil, and I have found both humor and occasional insight 
in your postings, you have succeeded in doing exactly what your .sig file 
indicates: you have once again shot yourself in your foot.

Cheers,
David G Doshay

ddos...@mac.com





> On 11, Apr 2016, at 5:08 PM, djhbrown .  wrote:
> 
> Lee Sedol and the rest of us should scratch our heads as well as shake
> them in dismay, for we all have been beaten at our own game by a
> dumbass box of tricks that just guesses. Fancy that!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> patient: "whenever i open my mouth, i get a shooting pain in my foot"
> doctor: "fire!"

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Re: [Computer-go] Lee Sedol's reviews on AlphaGo games

[djhbrown .]

Paweł Morawiecki demands of DM: "would we see something similar from
your point of view?  It's been a month since the match, ..
Unfortunately, nothing has been given :-("

Go is purportedly a good way of acquiring the skill of patience - but
perhaps that rosy-eyed claim may not be entirely justified.

interesting to see Lee's understandable misconceptions (shared by
other pro player commentators) about what alpha does and doesn't like,
based purely on her playing behaviour.

at the risk of belabouring the obvious, and not wishing to presume to
speak on their behalf, DM team reps have already offerred numerous
explanations of alpha's view of the match in various  press
conferences and tweets and have outlined their company's future plans
in several youtube videos and answered lots of questions about her and
them from journalists and other audience members (some of which may
have been planted questions).

for example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X-NdPtFKq0

if you want to see the current picture in one Readers' Digest
synopsis, you could assign your own neural net the task of
transcribing and collating all the relevant bits and pieces of
publicly available information and blog your own essay on it.

PS  i had a go at joining some of the dots a while ago, in a comment
on AGA's youtube commentary on game 3, reproduced below:

This message is written to be intelligible to young children about how
Alphago's mind works.

First, let's see how your own mind works, so we can compare the two.

Imagine a schoolyard of tweeting children passing little messages
around from hand to hand. Each individual tweets to several friends,
who in turn tweet to others. Tweets flow around the yard like currents
flow around the sea, which a bird's-eye view through a "tweet camera"
could see like water flowing in streams, pools and rivers.

Because of gravity, real water only flows downhill, but tweet water
can flow round and round in circles and spirals and all kinds of
shapes.

Your brain is a schoolyard of tweeting neurons, each of which can have
hundreds or thousands of hands for receiving tweets from others and
passing on tweets of its own. A bird's-eye view of all this activity
seen through the lens of a magnetic resonance imaging camera produces
a video that looks like a city seen at night from high above, with
rivers of car headlights flowing around and building lights twinkling
on and off, as wonderfully filmed in timelapse in the cinematic
masterpiece "Koyaanisqatsi".

The messages that neurons tweet to each other are physically embodied
in concentrations of neurotransmitters with fancy names like
acetocholine and dopamine, but their meanings are simple yells: the
louder one neuron yells to another, the more likely the other will
hear it. Neurons have two different kinds of receiving hands, some
that are turned on by yells, and some that are turned off.

Each neuron receives yells from hundreds, sometimes thousands, of
others at a time. Chemical yells in synapses make waves of ionisations
in receiving hands called dendrites, which flow up to the Chief
Executive Officer (CEO) of the neuron, which is called the axon
hillock because from the outside it looks like a lump in your arm.

Like all CEOs, the axon hillock doesn't do much, because all the hard
work is done by others. All a CEO has to do is every now and then
decide between a shortlist of choices provided by his advisors, and
then tell other people what to do, and so on down the line until you
get to the true value-adders of any corporation or civilisation, the
manual labourers such as computer programmers, bricklayers, and
dustmen.

All a neuron's CEO has to do is every now and then do a simple sum of
all the 'on' yells minus all the 'off' yells and see whether that sum
is big enough to tickle its fancy. If it does, it lights up an
electrochemical wave down its trunk (its axon), which branches out to
its numerous tweet-sending hands (called axon terminals), which pass
its tweet onto those of its neighbours that it talks to.

A neuron's tweet is just one letter long. It's either on, or it's off.
It's binary, just like the signals flowing around inside a digital
computer. Neurobiologists call the tweet an "axon spike all or nothing
response" because they noticed that its intensity and frequency does
not change from one tweet to another - it's either there, or it's not
there..

Now, you may think that just going tweet or not isn't enough to say
anything much, but Samuel Morse knew better, because any letter or
number can be represented as a string of on-or-off tweets (called
"bits" in IT jargon, short for "binary digit"). The code Morse devised
for flashing messages from one ship to another enabled ship captains
to coordinate their activities and fight battles as a team.

Sending messages is one thing, but being able to understand them is
quite another. It's easy to see how messages can be written in binary,
but what about figuring out their meanings? And deciding 

Re: [Computer-go] Operators for Frisbee Go Simulation

[Marc Landgraf]

I still haven't seen an exactly specified ruleset for this game.
Goncalo made some assumptions earlier, which were not yet confirmed.
Also I would strongly recommend to not have any clearup-methods
allowed, but all positions have to be cleared up by "hand" and all
stones on the board in the end are considered alive.

Oh, and for the theorists:
Assumptions:
- You have a group with a single 3 point eye.
- defender moves first.
a) it has "more than enough" outside liberties.
b) it has no outside liberties

and you use
A) p=0.20
B) p=0.19
C) p=0.18



What is the ideal strategy for both players in all the possible
positions? And considering those strategies, what is the likelyhood of
the group surviving?
It is obvious, that if either of both players hits the centre, the
position is won for him. Also if the defender accidentally hits one
end and reduces it to a 2 point eye, he has lost.
The difference between a) and b) is only the situation where the
attacker accidentally filled both ends of the eye. In a) playing in
the centre would be suicide, and given enough time the defender will
obviously win that situation. In b) you have a race for the centre.
If you assume A) the strategy looks quite simple. In the original
position both sides would throw at an end, hoping for it to land in
the centre instead. If it lands on the end for the defender, he would
have just killed his group (unfortunately), if it lands there for the
attacker, the game would go on and we have a race.
But what happens with B) and C)? Now the situation at the original
position isn't as trivial anymore. Aboves strategy is suddenly worse
now. No matter how you throw, it is more likely to hit an end than the
centre. Could you even create a situation where it is ideal for the
defender to pass and hope for the attacker to miss, before the
defender plays again?

2016-04-10 22:55 GMT+02:00 "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de>:
> Hello,
>
>> There is no way in GTP to distinguish intentional from unintentional
>> passes, so I suppose the simplest way is to perform things manually.
>
> Manually would mean. In each situation the followiong has to happen:
> (i) The program to move proposes a move x or a PASS.
> (ii) In case of a move x a die is rolled to decide to which place y on the 
> board
> this move goes. y is returned to the program and to the opposing program.
> In case of an unintended pass this information has to be returned to both 
> programs.
> (iii) In case of an intended PASS tis is transmitted to the other program.
>
> So: the programs for this manual mode need to have the possibility
> to enter move, unintended passes, and intended passes. Of course also
> takeback of moves should be possible to deal with operator errors.
>
>> Maybe it is an informal tournament and time controls don't really matter.
>
> There should be some time limit like 30 seconds or 1 minute per move (for
> the process that leads to proposal x or PASS) - and the operators should give
> their word of honor that they have implemented this.
>
> By the way: All programs should run on (more or less) identical hardware.
>
>
>> Also, do these remote participations come at a fee? :-)
>
> Of course: 50 Euro when a programmer participates "only" in Frisbee Go 
> simulation.
> And 25 Euro only, when Frisbee Go simulation is his second or third or ... 
> game in
> this Olympiad.
>
> Ingo.
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[Computer-go] Lee Sedol's reviews on AlphaGo games

[Paweł Morawiecki]

Hi,

Here are some thoughts (translated into English), given by Lee Sedol on all
five matches: http://badukinkorea.tumblr.com

Dear Aja/Deepmind, would we see something similar from your point of view?
It's been a month since the match, i think many people really waiting for
any news/plans for AlphaGo. Unfortunately, nothing has been given :-(

Kind regards,
Paweł
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