Re: [Computer-go] Go Tournament with hinteresting rules

[Freeman Ng]

No, it's because the bots' mc based algorithms currently don't care how
much they win by. (At least I'm assuming that's what Ingo meant.) They just
try to maximize their odds of winning.

I've often wondered about this, though, and maybe the bot developers here
can give me an answer. There's no reason why an mc-based go program
couldn't also factor winning margin into its decisions, is there? I assume
that at some point, what the mc analysis yields is a winning probability
for each candidate move, but at that point, you could still combine that
number with other factors, right? Some combination of winning probability
and probable winning margin, so that, for example, a 87% chance of winning
by 5 points could be rated lower than a 85% change of winning by 20. I
don't know what the ideal formula would be, and you'd probably want to
prevent the winning probability from ever getting too low, while also
ignoring potentially large winning margins beyond a certain point, but the
idea would be to generally make the bots play more like humans.

Why, you might ask, when this would only compromise their strength? For two
reasons:

1. To compete in tournaments like the one Ingo reported in this thread.
2. To make commercial programs more pleasing and useful for humans to play.

On #2, I don't know about others, but I really hate playing against Go
software because of how it starts playing "bad" moves once it's winning,
and I'd also like to use its winning margins to help gauge my strength.

Do any commercial Go programs work this way? If not, I'd like to request it
from the commercial developers here. It could be an option that you'd only
have in the commercial product, for your users to turn on if they prefer
it. You could still operate in pure mc mode for bot vs. bot play.

Freeman


*_*
*|| Freeman Ng - www.AuthorFreeman.com *
*||**Poetry Pro-Am - connecting our students with our poets*
*||**Who Am I? - a personalizable picture book*
*||**Haiku Diem - a daily haiku feed *
*||**Joan - a novel of Joan of Arc*
***



On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Erik van der Werf 
wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 10:58 PM, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de>
> wrote:
> > Playing under such conditions might be a challenge for the bots
>
> Why? Do you think the humans will collude?  ;-)
>
> Erik.
>
>
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@computer-go.org
http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] Go Tournament with hinteresting rules

[Marc Landgraf]

Well, the system i identical to that besides:
- there are 19 bonus points for winning (I really like that one...)
- it is capped at +40 an -40

But I do not think it is too interesting for bots right now mostly due to
lack of similar strengths bots. And while the GtI tourney does equalize
this with handicap, the way bots deal with handi, especially when being of
different strengths, kinda ruins it.

2016-12-09 0:11 GMT+01:00 Lukas van de Wiel :

> So why not add the amount of points equal to your score? You win by 16.5
> points? You get 16.5 points. You lose by 4.5. You lose 4.5 points. At the
> end of the tournament, there will be contestants with a negative score, but
> it seems a more straightforward system to me, and the players losing only
> by a small amount will still rate righter than those that are slaughtered.
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 11:56 PM, Erik van der Werf <
> erikvanderw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 10:58 PM, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de>
>> wrote:
>> > Playing under such conditions might be a challenge for the bots
>>
>> Why? Do you think the humans will collude?  ;-)
>>
>> Erik.
>> ___
>> Computer-go mailing list
>> Computer-go@computer-go.org
>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>>
>
>
> ___
> Computer-go mailing list
> Computer-go@computer-go.org
> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@computer-go.org
http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] Go Tournament with hinteresting rules

[Lukas van de Wiel]

So why not add the amount of points equal to your score? You win by 16.5
points? You get 16.5 points. You lose by 4.5. You lose 4.5 points. At the
end of the tournament, there will be contestants with a negative score, but
it seems a more straightforward system to me, and the players losing only
by a small amount will still rate righter than those that are slaughtered.

On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 11:56 PM, Erik van der Werf  wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 10:58 PM, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de>
> wrote:
> > Playing under such conditions might be a challenge for the bots
>
> Why? Do you think the humans will collude?  ;-)
>
> Erik.
> ___
> Computer-go mailing list
> Computer-go@computer-go.org
> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@computer-go.org
http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] Go Tournament with hinteresting rules

[Erik van der Werf]

On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 10:58 PM, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Playing under such conditions might be a challenge for the bots

Why? Do you think the humans will collude?  ;-)

Erik.
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@computer-go.org
http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

[Computer-go] Go Tournament with hinteresting rules

[Ingo Althöfer]

Hi,
this is info on a human-human go tournament, but with
interesting scoring.
Wins by 40 or more points (or by resignation) give score 100,
Win by 39 gives score 99
Win by 38 gives score 98 ...
Win by 1 gives score 60.

Loss by 40 or more gives score 0,
Loss by 39 gives score 1
...
Loss by 1 gives score 40

The tournament was high prized (for European Go standards).
It toook place in Berlin three weks ago:
http://eurogofed.org/index.html?id=88

Playing under such conditions might be a challenge for the bots
based on MC.

Ingo.


___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@computer-go.org
http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go