Re: [Computer-go] Different Rules

[Ingo Althöfer]

Dear Hideki,

thanks for all your open comments here in the mailing
list in the last few days.

I know that these days (with the losses) are really hard
bread for the Zen team. But "in the end" you will emerge
from the lessons stronger than anytime before. 


> >When would be possible to buy a new DeepZen?
> 
> Fully depends on the publisher of Tencho-no-Igo, Mynavi.   
> This version will be about one stone weaker on a gaming PC 
> (eight-core Intel with GTX-1080, for example) and two stones or 
> three weaker on a laptop.

Thanks for the info. Youo know, that dozens of Go friends
in Jena/Germany/Europe are eagerly waiting for a new Zen 
analysis tool.

Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] Different Rules

[Hideki Kato]

Pawe Morawiecki: 
:
>Hideki,
>
>
>>  An important difference from actual game is
>> the search tree, which is very big in real, long-time setting
>> game.  One possible interpretation is, Zen read in deep and
>> found the (wrong) seki, which would lead W a sure win and so,
>> played R18 toward this (again wrong!) winning position.
>>
>> Looks like DeepZenGo Team just missed a couple of months (weeks?) to train
>stronger value network to be able to win the tournament. Michael Redmond 9p
>said that DeepZen already plays at the top professional level, particularly
>opening and middle game. Congratulations on today's well-deserved win
>against Iyama!

Thanks.

>When would be possible to buy a new DeepZen?

Fully depends on the publisher of Tencho-no-Igo, Mynavi.  

This version will be about one stone weaker on a gaming PC 
(eight-core Intel with GTX-1080, for example) and two stones or 
three weaker on a laptop.

Best,
Hideki

>Regards,
>Pawel
>
>
>
>
>> Hideki
>>
>> Hideki Kato: <58d26196.6952%hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp>:
>> >We have set komi to 5.5 today.  This looks worked fine.
>> >
>> >The strange yose moves were caused by unknown reason.  We are
>> >seeking the cause(s).  Observed fact: The upper left center
>> >three black stones cannot be captured but Zen looks evaluated
>> >them as dead.  When Zen noticed the truth, horizen effect forced
>> >several miserable moves in upper side white territory.  Then,
>> >upper left white stones together with many short-liberty stones
>> >forced the value network misrecognized them as
>> >living by seki, because the shape looked seki (for VN) and many
>> >moves were required to capture them in rollout.
>> >
>> >Hideki
>> >
>> >Pawe  Morawiecki:
>> >:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> RATHER OFTEN the outcome was a score where both sides thought
>> >>> to have won. In the 5.5/7.5 komi example from Go  this means that
>> >>> outcomes with +6 or +7 points for Black on the board would occur
>> >>> often.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>It looks like this issue is serious again was a factor in today's game
>> >>against Park 9p. Zen was winning and in the endgame starts giving away
>> >>points and the game was reversed.
>> >>Hideki, was that the case?
>> >>
>> >>Too bad it's 6.5 komi as it seems Zen has potential to win both games 
>:-(
>> >>
>> >>Regards,
>> >>Pawel
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Of course, this is not welcome for zero-sum games. But it is a hint
>> >>> that in reallife scenarios (with non-zero-sum payoffs) Monte Carlo
>> >>> heuristics (with their tendency to produce narrow wi0ns) might be
>> >>> helpful in finding good compromises.
>> >>>
>> >>> Ingo.
>> >>> ___
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>> >>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>> >> inline file
>> >>___
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>> >--
>> >Hideki Kato 
>> >___
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>> --
>> Hideki Kato 
>> ___
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> inline file
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Re: [Computer-go] Different Rules

[Paweł Morawiecki]

Hideki,


>  An important difference from actual game is
> the search tree, which is very big in real, long-time setting
> game.  One possible interpretation is, Zen read in deep and
> found the (wrong) seki, which would lead W a sure win and so,
> played R18 toward this (again wrong!) winning position.
>
> Looks like DeepZenGo Team just missed a couple of months (weeks?) to train
stronger value network to be able to win the tournament. Michael Redmond 9p
said that DeepZen already plays at the top professional level, particularly
opening and middle game. Congratulations on today's well-deserved win
against Iyama!

When would be possible to buy a new DeepZen?

Regards,
Paweł




> Hideki
>
> Hideki Kato: <58d26196.6952%hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp>:
> >We have set komi to 5.5 today.  This looks worked fine.
> >
> >The strange yose moves were caused by unknown reason.  We are
> >seeking the cause(s).  Observed fact: The upper left center
> >three black stones cannot be captured but Zen looks evaluated
> >them as dead.  When Zen noticed the truth, horizen effect forced
> >several miserable moves in upper side white territory.  Then,
> >upper left white stones together with many short-liberty stones
> >forced the value network misrecognized them as
> >living by seki, because the shape looked seki (for VN) and many
> >moves were required to capture them in rollout.
> >
> >Hideki
> >
> >Pawe  Morawiecki:
> >:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> RATHER OFTEN the outcome was a score where both sides thought
> >>> to have won. In the 5.5/7.5 komi example from Go  this means that
> >>> outcomes with +6 or +7 points for Black on the board would occur
> >>> often.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>It looks like this issue is serious again was a factor in today's game
> >>against Park 9p. Zen was winning and in the endgame starts giving away
> >>points and the game was reversed.
> >>Hideki, was that the case?
> >>
> >>Too bad it's 6.5 komi as it seems Zen has potential to win both games :-(
> >>
> >>Regards,
> >>Pawel
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Of course, this is not welcome for zero-sum games. But it is a hint
> >>> that in reallife scenarios (with non-zero-sum payoffs) Monte Carlo
> >>> heuristics (with their tendency to produce narrow wi0ns) might be
> >>> helpful in finding good compromises.
> >>>
> >>> Ingo.
> >>> ___
> >>> Computer-go mailing list
> >>> Computer-go@computer-go.org
> >>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
> >> inline file
> >>___
> >>Computer-go mailing list
> >>Computer-go@computer-go.org
> >>http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
> >--
> >Hideki Kato 
> >___
> >Computer-go mailing list
> >Computer-go@computer-go.org
> >http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
> --
> Hideki Kato 
> ___
> Computer-go mailing list
> Computer-go@computer-go.org
> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>
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