Re: [Computer-go] Lee Sedol's reviews on AlphaGo games

[Ingo Althöfer]

Oliver, my new friend!
Thanks a lot for the link.

Very interesting photos - and also the
long list of (49) comments is interesting.

Thanks again, Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] Lee Sedol's reviews on AlphaGo games

[Oliver Lewis]

Pictures of the charts are available here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments/4cgitz/alphagos_confidence_chart_for_the_5_games_david/
?

They're hard to read in detail but they still give a good impression of how
the evaluation developed during the games.

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 11:26 AM, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de>
wrote:

> Hi Aja,
>
> thanks for the reply.
>
> > David Silver did show AlphaGo's value graph of game 1 in his talk in UCL.
>
> Was that the talk on March 24?
> A pity, that I missed it...
>
> > AlphaGo's value at move 102 was higher than 60%. I'm not allowed to
> share the graph now
> > but I hope I have answered your question.
>
> Each single bit of information is appreciated :-)
>
> Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] Lee Sedol's reviews on AlphaGo games

[Ingo Althöfer]

Hi Aja,

thanks for the reply.
 
> David Silver did show AlphaGo's value graph of game 1 in his talk in UCL. 

Was that the talk on March 24?
A pity, that I missed it...

> AlphaGo's value at move 102 was higher than 60%. I'm not allowed to share the 
> graph now 
> but I hope I have answered your question.
 
Each single bit of information is appreciated :-)

Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] Lee Sedol's reviews on AlphaGo games

[Aja Huang]

Hi Ingo,

2016-04-14 14:21 GMT+01:00 "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de>:
>
> Is 102.R10 really so special? I analysed that position with CrazyStone2013
> about 30 times (independent runs). In 20+ % of the runs, CS2013 also wants
> to play R12 (giving White 60+% chances of winning). But also in the other
> cases, where mostly R14 or P17 are proposed, the expected winning chances
> for White are given by about 60 %.
>
> I would indeed like to know which % AlphaGo gave White in this position.
>

David Silver did show AlphaGo's value graph of game 1 in his talk in UCL.
AlphaGo's value at move 102 was higher than 60%. I'm not allowed to share
the graph now but I hope I have answered your question.

Aja
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Re: [Computer-go] Lee Sedol's reviews on AlphaGo games

[Ingo Althöfer]

Hi Aja,
 
>> ... i think many people really waiting for any news/plans for AlphaGo. 
>> Unfortunately, nothing has been given :-(
>
> Hi Paweł, we are still discussing and deciding the next steps of AlphaGo. 
> Thank you for the patience.
 
I am one of those who are waiting eagerly for your comments
on the games.

In particular, concerning game 1, Lee Sedol made a comment which
I do not understand:
> The right side white 1 (R10, 102nd move), which is often denoted as AlphaGo’s 
> winning move, proves that the match had become a tough game. It seems that
> AlphaGo plays a bold move like this because she judges that she could not 
> win in a peaceful way. 

Is 102.R10 really so special? I analysed that position with CrazyStone2013
about 30 times (independent runs). In 20+ % of the runs, CS2013 also wants
to play R12 (giving White 60+% chances of winning). But also in the other
cases, where mostly R14 or P17 are proposed, the expected winning chances
for White are given by about 60 %.

I would indeed like to know which % AlphaGo gave White in this position.

Kind regards,
Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] Lee Sedol's reviews on AlphaGo games

[David Doshay]

Sir,

After 1400 words you get to your point. 
Your point about Monte Carlo techniques is well known to this list.
Your 1400 word digression on neurons and their networks is really not news to 
this list either (in my case there is 5+ years working for NASA doing 
computational neuroscience).

While you are mostly civil, and I have found both humor and occasional insight 
in your postings, you have succeeded in doing exactly what your .sig file 
indicates: you have once again shot yourself in your foot.

Cheers,
David G Doshay

ddos...@mac.com





> On 11, Apr 2016, at 5:08 PM, djhbrown .  wrote:
> 
> Lee Sedol and the rest of us should scratch our heads as well as shake
> them in dismay, for we all have been beaten at our own game by a
> dumbass box of tricks that just guesses. Fancy that!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> patient: "whenever i open my mouth, i get a shooting pain in my foot"
> doctor: "fire!"

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Re: [Computer-go] Lee Sedol's reviews on AlphaGo games

[djhbrown .]

Paweł Morawiecki demands of DM: "would we see something similar from
your point of view?  It's been a month since the match, ..
Unfortunately, nothing has been given :-("

Go is purportedly a good way of acquiring the skill of patience - but
perhaps that rosy-eyed claim may not be entirely justified.

interesting to see Lee's understandable misconceptions (shared by
other pro player commentators) about what alpha does and doesn't like,
based purely on her playing behaviour.

at the risk of belabouring the obvious, and not wishing to presume to
speak on their behalf, DM team reps have already offerred numerous
explanations of alpha's view of the match in various  press
conferences and tweets and have outlined their company's future plans
in several youtube videos and answered lots of questions about her and
them from journalists and other audience members (some of which may
have been planted questions).

for example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X-NdPtFKq0

if you want to see the current picture in one Readers' Digest
synopsis, you could assign your own neural net the task of
transcribing and collating all the relevant bits and pieces of
publicly available information and blog your own essay on it.

PS  i had a go at joining some of the dots a while ago, in a comment
on AGA's youtube commentary on game 3, reproduced below:

This message is written to be intelligible to young children about how
Alphago's mind works.

First, let's see how your own mind works, so we can compare the two.

Imagine a schoolyard of tweeting children passing little messages
around from hand to hand. Each individual tweets to several friends,
who in turn tweet to others. Tweets flow around the yard like currents
flow around the sea, which a bird's-eye view through a "tweet camera"
could see like water flowing in streams, pools and rivers.

Because of gravity, real water only flows downhill, but tweet water
can flow round and round in circles and spirals and all kinds of
shapes.

Your brain is a schoolyard of tweeting neurons, each of which can have
hundreds or thousands of hands for receiving tweets from others and
passing on tweets of its own. A bird's-eye view of all this activity
seen through the lens of a magnetic resonance imaging camera produces
a video that looks like a city seen at night from high above, with
rivers of car headlights flowing around and building lights twinkling
on and off, as wonderfully filmed in timelapse in the cinematic
masterpiece "Koyaanisqatsi".

The messages that neurons tweet to each other are physically embodied
in concentrations of neurotransmitters with fancy names like
acetocholine and dopamine, but their meanings are simple yells: the
louder one neuron yells to another, the more likely the other will
hear it. Neurons have two different kinds of receiving hands, some
that are turned on by yells, and some that are turned off.

Each neuron receives yells from hundreds, sometimes thousands, of
others at a time. Chemical yells in synapses make waves of ionisations
in receiving hands called dendrites, which flow up to the Chief
Executive Officer (CEO) of the neuron, which is called the axon
hillock because from the outside it looks like a lump in your arm.

Like all CEOs, the axon hillock doesn't do much, because all the hard
work is done by others. All a CEO has to do is every now and then
decide between a shortlist of choices provided by his advisors, and
then tell other people what to do, and so on down the line until you
get to the true value-adders of any corporation or civilisation, the
manual labourers such as computer programmers, bricklayers, and
dustmen.

All a neuron's CEO has to do is every now and then do a simple sum of
all the 'on' yells minus all the 'off' yells and see whether that sum
is big enough to tickle its fancy. If it does, it lights up an
electrochemical wave down its trunk (its axon), which branches out to
its numerous tweet-sending hands (called axon terminals), which pass
its tweet onto those of its neighbours that it talks to.

A neuron's tweet is just one letter long. It's either on, or it's off.
It's binary, just like the signals flowing around inside a digital
computer. Neurobiologists call the tweet an "axon spike all or nothing
response" because they noticed that its intensity and frequency does
not change from one tweet to another - it's either there, or it's not
there..

Now, you may think that just going tweet or not isn't enough to say
anything much, but Samuel Morse knew better, because any letter or
number can be represented as a string of on-or-off tweets (called
"bits" in IT jargon, short for "binary digit"). The code Morse devised
for flashing messages from one ship to another enabled ship captains
to coordinate their activities and fight battles as a team.

Sending messages is one thing, but being able to understand them is
quite another. It's easy to see how messages can be written in binary,
but what about figuring out their meanings? And deciding 

[Computer-go] Lee Sedol's reviews on AlphaGo games

[Paweł Morawiecki]

Hi,

Here are some thoughts (translated into English), given by Lee Sedol on all
five matches: http://badukinkorea.tumblr.com

Dear Aja/Deepmind, would we see something similar from your point of view?
It's been a month since the match, i think many people really waiting for
any news/plans for AlphaGo. Unfortunately, nothing has been given :-(

Kind regards,
Paweł
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