Re: [computer-go] Fwd: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server
On 1/18/10 3:02 AM, Wolfgang Krames wrote: Hi Benjamin Teuber from Germany works for IGS to make the official client more attractive to western players, e.g. he plans to add a kgs-like-review-tool. You can tell him your wishes (like making igs usable for near blind people) and if possible he will add them to glgo in the future. Wolfgang Krames Good news about the client. Does anyone know what became of Teuber's UGS project? (the one mentioned at Sensei's) Michael ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Fwd: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server
-- Forwarded message -- From: Giudici Raphaël raphael.giud...@gmail.com Date: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:53 PM Subject: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server To: gn...@gnu.org Cc: campai...@fsf.org Hi, I contacted the FSF to talk about the possible creation of an open source real time Go server backed up by the FSF. According to John Sullivan, they are interested by such project and advised me to get in touch with your team. As you probably know, there are 4 (not counting yahoo games etc ... ) real time Go server available on internet : Tygem, CyberOro, IGS and KGS. Two of them are Asia operated, IGS and KGS are both free of charge but not open source. KGS seems to be the more popular at the moment due to the way people can create open games and the great teaching tools. At first I tried to get in touch with the dev person behind KGS to discuss possible modifications to make kgs usable by near blind people, but he refuses to talk about opening the client, the protocol or the server. I wanted to avoid starting a new server from scratch ( with the huge chances to not get anywhere ), but it looks like there is no way to discuss with him. I guess some members of your team are regular on those online Go servers. And maybe already though about such project. I do believe there is room for improvement and an open source alternative : A documented, open protocol and a server project. I would like to know if your team is interested, have some ideas, or know other person that would be. I am not a coding person myself, I do work in IT, but know nothing about code and my hobby is drawing ... Though, I would obviously help at all the other levels, get in touch with people, test, write documentation, translate, host and manage ... and so on. Best regards, PS : Gnu GO gives me a hard time at my lunch break every day ... ;D -- Raphaël Giudici phone : +33 (0)6 32 56 14 85 mail : raphael.giud...@gmail.com ___ gnugo-devel mailing list gnugo-de...@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnugo-devel ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fwd: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server
If you get a team together I'd be willing to help out with development, technical writing, and design. Would guess or hope that the server would be written in C or C++. -Josh ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fwd: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 09:00:44AM +0100, Ben Lambrechts wrote: At first I tried to get in touch with the dev person behind KGS to discuss possible modifications to make kgs usable by near blind people, but he refuses to talk about opening the client, the protocol or the server. I wanted to avoid starting a new server from scratch ( with the huge chances to not get anywhere ), but it looks like there is no way to discuss with him. I have been in touch with wms as well and I understand his reasons to keep KGS in particular closed-source. At the same time I would certainly prefer to use an open-source server and over time, I think most KGS users would do the same for all the benefits (even if they have no idea what open-source is). I am not a coding person myself, I do work in IT, but know nothing about code and my hobby is drawing ... Though, I would obviously help at all the other levels, get in touch with people, test, write documentation, translate, host and manage ... and so on. I think it is very difficult to just attract people to an abstract idea or project and in my open-source history, I have pretty bad experience with these - they aren't very likely to produce anything tangible. It is a lot easier to just hack together a simple barely working prototype in few days/weeks, then start rallying people around _that_. Most community-driven OSS projects are a lot more evolution than intelligent design and this corresponds to that fact. Bored developers like something they can evolve and play with rather than just design and dream up specs, and when it comes to the implementation, their attention span is already over. I guess some members of your team are regular on those online Go servers. And maybe already though about such project. I do believe there is room for improvement and an open source alternative : A documented, open protocol and a server project. While working on it is probably pretty out of question for me due to already being horribly overloaded, I have given this some thought and researched a bit: (i) IGS is derivation of NNGS, which is free software (GPLv2)! It has even seen some slight development in past few years. (ii) NNGS might be used as possible base of a modern go server. The obvious advantage is that _right now_ you have something that you can (in theory) compile, start, connect to and chat and play go on (!) and you can evolve things from here. (iii) NNGS talks using same protocol as IGS. IGS' protocol being open, there is huge host of Go software already supporting IGS, including open-source software like qgo and many mobile applications. This is huge advantage (though none of the open-source clients probably come anywhere close to cgoban3 quality right now). (iv) NNGS code base is not pretty. I have seen much worse, but it's not too nice to work with, over time many things would have to be refactored. Two nice examples are hardcoded chatroom numbers and ugly macro-based localization system (inst. of gettext). It's written in C. (v) IGS protocol does not support two key KGS features per se: open games and presence in multiple chat rooms. It could be extended to support these features and others in mostly-backwards-compatible fashion, but only with some pain. (I'm also not sure about review capabilities of the IGS protocol, but I have not investigated.) (vi) Using custom protocol makes sense if you are developing both server and client hard-tied together by some underlying library, akin to how KGS is built. However, I believe abstracting the protocol is more work during the development, but much more viable solution long-term, enabling free competition both on the server and the client side, and allowing clients on a wide variety of platforms. If you are really interested, I think using NNGS as a code base merits consideration, and I think using and extending already existing, well-documented and already widely supported IGS protocol makes huge amount of sense. -- Petr Pasky Baudis A lot of people have my books on their bookshelves. That's the problem, they need to read them. -- Don Knuth ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fwd: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server
In message 88fb322c100118q4420480erfaeb5965f0a13...@mail.gmail.com, Ben Lambrechts benedic...@fedoraproject.org writes -- Forwarded message -- From: Giudici Raphaël raphael.giud...@gmail.com Date: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:53 PM Subject: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server To: gn...@gnu.org Cc: campai...@fsf.org Hi, I contacted the FSF to talk about the possible creation of an open source real time Go server backed up by the FSF. According to John Sullivan, they are interested by such project and advised me to get in touch with your team. As you probably know, there are 4 (not counting yahoo games etc ... ) real time Go server available on internet : Tygem, CyberOro, IGS and KGS. Two of them are Asia operated, IGS and KGS are both free of charge but not open source. KGS seems to be the more popular at the moment due to the way people can create open games and the great teaching tools. I think there must be many more than four on-line real-time Go servers. When I last counted (more than five years ago) there were about 50. The largest, in terms of users, was at http://www.ourgame.com, with over 20,000 Go-players connected at one time. I don't read Chinese, so I can't tell you if it still supports Go. At first I tried to get in touch with the dev person behind KGS to discuss possible modifications to make kgs usable by near blind people, but he refuses to talk about opening the client, the protocol or the server. I wanted to avoid starting a new server from scratch ( with the huge chances to not get anywhere ), but it looks like there is no way to discuss with him. I guess some members of your team are regular on those online Go servers. And maybe already though about such project. I do believe there is room for improvement and an open source alternative : A documented, open protocol and a server project. Like NNGS? Nick I would like to know if your team is interested, have some ideas, or know other person that would be. I am not a coding person myself, I do work in IT, but know nothing about code and my hobby is drawing ... Though, I would obviously help at all the other levels, get in touch with people, test, write documentation, translate, host and manage ... and so on. Best regards, PS : Gnu GO gives me a hard time at my lunch break every day ... ;D -- Raphaël Giudici phone : +33 (0)6 32 56 14 85 mail : raphael.giud...@gmail.com ___ gnugo-devel mailing list gnugo-de...@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnugo-devel ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Weddn...@maproom.co.uk ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Fwd: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server
Hi Benjamin Teuber from Germany works for IGS to make the official client more attractive to western players, e.g. he plans to add a kgs-like-review-tool. You can tell him your wishes (like making igs usable for near blind people) and if possible he will add them to glgo in the future. Wolfgang Krames Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 10:48:01 + To: computer-go@computer-go.org From: n...@maproom.co.uk Subject: Re: [computer-go] Fwd: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server CC: gnugo-de...@gnu.org; campai...@fsf.org In message 88fb322c100118q4420480erfaeb5965f0a13...@mail.gmail.com, Ben Lambrechts benedic...@fedoraproject.org writes -- Forwarded message -- From: Giudici Raphaël raphael.giud...@gmail.com Date: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:53 PM Subject: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server To: gn...@gnu.org Cc: campai...@fsf.org Hi, I contacted the FSF to talk about the possible creation of an open source real time Go server backed up by the FSF. According to John Sullivan, they are interested by such project and advised me to get in touch with your team. As you probably know, there are 4 (not counting yahoo games etc ... ) real time Go server available on internet : Tygem, CyberOro, IGS and KGS. Two of them are Asia operated, IGS and KGS are both free of charge but not open source. KGS seems to be the more popular at the moment due to the way people can create open games and the great teaching tools. I think there must be many more than four on-line real-time Go servers. When I last counted (more than five years ago) there were about 50. The largest, in terms of users, was at http://www.ourgame.com, with over 20,000 Go-players connected at one time. I don't read Chinese, so I can't tell you if it still supports Go. At first I tried to get in touch with the dev person behind KGS to discuss possible modifications to make kgs usable by near blind people, but he refuses to talk about opening the client, the protocol or the server. I wanted to avoid starting a new server from scratch ( with the huge chances to not get anywhere ), but it looks like there is no way to discuss with him. I guess some members of your team are regular on those online Go servers. And maybe already though about such project. I do believe there is room for improvement and an open source alternative : A documented, open protocol and a server project. Like NNGS? Nick I would like to know if your team is interested, have some ideas, or know other person that would be. I am not a coding person myself, I do work in IT, but know nothing about code and my hobby is drawing ... Though, I would obviously help at all the other levels, get in touch with people, test, write documentation, translate, host and manage ... and so on. Best regards, PS : Gnu GO gives me a hard time at my lunch break every day ... ;D -- Raphaël Giudici phone : +33 (0)6 32 56 14 85 mail : raphael.giud...@gmail.com ___ gnugo-devel mailing list gnugo-de...@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnugo-devel ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Weddn...@maproom.co.uk ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ _ Das neue Windows 7: Vereinfachen Sie Ihre täglichen Aufgaben. Finden Sie den richtigen PC. http://windows.microsoft.com/shop___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fwd: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server
Hi! BTW, thanks to Ben for forwarding the original mail. On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 12:02:52PM +0100, Wolfgang Krames wrote: Benjamin Teuber from Germany works for IGS to make the official client more attractive to western players, e.g. he plans to add a kgs-like-review-tool. You can tell him your wishes (like making igs usable for near blind people) and if possible he will add them to glgo in the future. This is very interesting information! At the same time, I think the key aspect for most users is the social one. People like to create communities (c.f. the social network sites) and KGS does that very well while IGS doesn't really. -- Petr Pasky Baudis A lot of people have my books on their bookshelves. That's the problem, they need to read them. -- Don Knuth ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fwd: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:14 PM, Petr Baudis pa...@ucw.cz wrote: (i) IGS is derivation of NNGS, which is free software (GPLv2)! It has even seen some slight development in past few years. ... As tempting as it is, I find it unlikely that incremental improvements on the current crop of servers / server protocols is likely to attract a critical mass of developers. Far more interesting (from my point of view) would be to throw out the current protocol approach and build a new protocol based on Jabber / XMPP / Google Wave (which are essentially the same thing). The beauty of this approach is that it outsources several issues that the current approach struggles with (i18n, security, timing, authentication, account maintenance, etc) to groups who appear to know what they're doing. Of course, developing for such a platform would be significantly more complex, but with such a protocol you can even imagine disaggregating the server into constituent parts based roles in a traditional tournament: game-organiser / match-maker; time keeper; adjudicator; record-keeper; etc. cheers stuart ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fwd: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server
Giudici Raphaël wrote: I contacted the FSF to talk about the possible creation of an open source real time Go server backed up by the FSF. According to John Sullivan, they are interested by such project and advised me to get in touch with your team. Perhaps using the GGZ Gaming Zone (http://www.ggzgamingzone.org/) would be a good way forward. I've never played there myself, and I'm not sure whether or not it's currently a lively place. But if it is, then this might be a solution for both the running a server is a lot of admin effort and the people want friends to chat with, not just opponents to play problems. Their web site implies that there is some Go support already, but that it needs work. -M- ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
