Re: [computer-go] Great Wall Opening by Bruce Wilcox
Go has been played long enough, and the proposed great wall opening is simple enough, that is should be more than valid to argue that if it was a good opening, it would be played more often. Here are some openings that have been found to lead to high winning percentages in real games: - The Shusaku opening in the old pre-komi days - The Chinese opening (still holds one of the highest winning percentages with Black, of all openings, if I remember correctly) - Mini-chinese - Kobayashi opening One could try and plonk down those openings and see whether the engine has a significantly better result. I would conjecture that current engines are not strong enough to use them correctly, and it won't make any difference where you place the first three stones, as long as it's reasonable distributed and not on the second line. I may extend my conjecture to amateur players under about 3 kyu :) Christian On 20/10/2009 06:56, Mark Boon wrote: On Oct 19, 2009, at 7:04 PM, Petri Pitkanen wrote: Not really a compuetr Go issue, but I do not think that great wall is superior even when completed. It is not too bad but it needs a definite strategy from wall owner. I.e building side moyos using wall as a roof and hoping that the other guy gets nervous and jumps in. So by being patient is pretty good defence against it. Even when completed I think it's inferior. But that doesn't mean you can take it lightly. There's a psychological component to it that makes it easy for the opponent to make a mistake. Also, White may have some advantage by having more experience with the strategy. But I agree with the pro that if you disrupt it by preventing completion with the last move it really turns disadvantageous for Black. Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Great Wall Opening by Bruce Wilcox
On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 08:10:47AM +0100, Christian Nentwich wrote: Go has been played long enough, and the proposed great wall opening is simple enough, that is should be more than valid to argue that if it was a good opening, it would be played more often. A possible explanation I have read some time ago in pro commentaries of some of the very first shin-fuseki experiments about opening on tengen: pros don't think it is inferior at all, in fact it may well be the best opening move for black, but pros avoid it simply because it is way too complex and complicated - they explained that the corner sequences are much easier to read (this includes tuning them in accord with the whole-board strategy) and much better explored than a complex fight in center, making for a surer winning strategy. So while black opening on tengen may well be _the_ winning strategy for black, it simply is too difficult to play it out correctly. One could try and plonk down those openings and see whether the engine has a significantly better result. I would conjecture that current engines are not strong enough to use them correctly, and it won't make any difference where you place the first three stones, as long as it's reasonable distributed and not on the second line. This has been my observation from watching pachi closely playing on KGS; the fuseki matters very little, it may make a difference when pachi is 6d and is going to play drawn-out even games with strong humans, but then again e.g. High55 does not have that bad a record either. ;-) I may extend my conjecture to amateur players under about 3 kyu :) (So I extend it even further; but to even out bad fuseki, of course you need to be exceptionally good (for your level) in other parts of the game and have very fighting playing style.) -- Petr Pasky Baudis A lot of people have my books on their bookshelves. That's the problem, they need to read them. -- Don Knuth ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Great Wall Opening by Bruce Wilcox
I heard about a pro comment that the Great wall and similar openings are quite feasible, but also quite easily thwarted. If you opponent plays it, you just prevent him from completing it by taking the last point yourself. This should give him an inferior position. If you let him complete it, he probably has a superior position. Dave Van: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org namens Ingo Althöfer Verzonden: vr 16-10-2009 20:55 Aan: computer-go@computer-go.org Onderwerp: [computer-go] Great Wall Opening by Bruce Wilcox In the year 2000 I bought the book EZ-GO: Oriental Strategy in a Nutshell, by Bruce and Sue Wilcox. Ki Press; 1996. I can only recommend it for the many fresh ideas. A few days ago I found time again to read in it. This time I was impressed by Bruce Wilcox's strange opening Great Wall, where Black starts with a loose wall made of 5 stones, spanning over the whole board. Bruce proposes to play this setup as a surprise weapon, even against stronger opponents. Now I made some autoplay tests, starting from the end position given in the appendix of this mail. * one game with Leela 3.16; Black won. * four games with MFoG 12.016; two wins each for Black and White. So there is some indiciation that the Great Wall works even for bots, who are not affected by psychology. I would like to know how other bots perform in autoplay after this opening. Cheers, Ingo. -- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Great Wall Opening by Bruce Wilcox
Not really a compuetr Go issue, but I do not think that great wall is superior even when completed. It is not too bad but it needs a definite strategy from wall owner. I.e building side moyos using wall as a roof and hoping that the other guy gets nervous and jumps in. So by being patient is pretty good defence against it. But to computer go: It may well that MCTS programs have abilities that match the great wall fuseki. They do like moyo's and fighting so this sound like a god match, but i doubt that it gives any meaninful boost. Just fun for a change. Petri 2009/10/20 dave.de...@planet.nl I heard about a pro comment that the Great wall and similar openings are quite feasible, but also quite easily thwarted. If you opponent plays it, you just prevent him from completing it by taking the last point yourself. This should give him an inferior position. If you let him complete it, he probably has a superior position. Dave -- *Van:* computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org namens Ingo Althöfer *Verzonden:* vr 16-10-2009 20:55 *Aan:* computer-go@computer-go.org *Onderwerp:* [computer-go] Great Wall Opening by Bruce Wilcox In the year 2000 I bought the book EZ-GO: Oriental Strategy in a Nutshell, by Bruce and Sue Wilcox. Ki Press; 1996. I can only recommend it for the many fresh ideas. A few days ago I found time again to read in it. This time I was impressed by Bruce Wilcox's strange opening Great Wall, where Black starts with a loose wall made of 5 stones, spanning over the whole board. Bruce proposes to play this setup as a surprise weapon, even against stronger opponents. Now I made some autoplay tests, starting from the end position given in the appendix of this mail. * one game with Leela 3.16; Black won. * four games with MFoG 12.016; two wins each for Black and White. So there is some indiciation that the Great Wall works even for bots, who are not affected by psychology. I would like to know how other bots perform in autoplay after this opening. Cheers, Ingo. -- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Petri Pitkänen e-mail: petri.t.pitka...@gmail.com ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Great Wall Opening by Bruce Wilcox
On Oct 19, 2009, at 7:04 PM, Petri Pitkanen wrote: Not really a compuetr Go issue, but I do not think that great wall is superior even when completed. It is not too bad but it needs a definite strategy from wall owner. I.e building side moyos using wall as a roof and hoping that the other guy gets nervous and jumps in. So by being patient is pretty good defence against it. Even when completed I think it's inferior. But that doesn't mean you can take it lightly. There's a psychological component to it that makes it easy for the opponent to make a mistake. Also, White may have some advantage by having more experience with the strategy. But I agree with the pro that if you disrupt it by preventing completion with the last move it really turns disadvantageous for Black. Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Great Wall Opening by Bruce Wilcox
Ingo Althöfer schrieb: Now I made some autoplay tests, starting from the end position given in the appendix of this mail. * one game with Leela 3.16; Black won. * four games with MFoG 12.016; two wins each for Black and White. So there is some indiciation that the Great Wall works even for bots, who are not affected by psychology. I would like to know how other bots perform in autoplay after this opening. Have you tried some random Setup for the first 5 stones from Black and compared the results? If there's no significant difference, I can't see the point in your question. Regards David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Great Wall Opening by Bruce Wilcox
In the year 2000 I bought the book EZ-GO: Oriental Strategy in a Nutshell, by Bruce and Sue Wilcox. Ki Press; 1996. I can only recommend it for the many fresh ideas. A few days ago I found time again to read in it. This time I was impressed by Bruce Wilcox's strange opening Great Wall, where Black starts with a loose wall made of 5 stones, spanning over the whole board. Bruce proposes to play this setup as a surprise weapon, even against stronger opponents. Now I made some autoplay tests, starting from the end position given in the appendix of this mail. * one game with Leela 3.16; Black won. * four games with MFoG 12.016; two wins each for Black and White. So there is some indiciation that the Great Wall works even for bots, who are not affected by psychology. I would like to know how other bots perform in autoplay after this opening. Cheers, Ingo. -- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 great-wall-1.sgf Description: application/go-sgf ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
