Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Do you know of any reasons why it would not be granted to the program author? 1. The admin considering granting it is not fully certain that the bot account is indeed controlled by the program author. 2. The program is very volatile in strength, with new algorithms being tested, so its presence in the rating system will be destructive. Reason 1 is the usual reason for refusals. I suspect that I know more than any other KGS admin about which are bona fide programs controlled by their authors rather than GNU Go clones controlled by children; most admins are unwilling to get involved. I have now discussed this with other KGS admins. So if for instance you, Chris, want MechaGozilla set to rated, I will do it for you. Nick On Nov 9, 2007 12:53 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Unlikely to be granted? I assume you mean only if you are not the program author? It is more likely to be granted if you can convince them that you are the author; but by no means certain. I don't know what the guidelines are. As an admin myself, I ought to know. I shall try to find out. Nick On Nov 9, 2007 12:17 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Aye, it would be bad to enter a tournament with a bot I didn't write. I was thinking more general. Just for play. Anyone can run a bot on KGS, the only obstacles are the small amount of technical competence required to get it and kgsGtp running and connected, and the need for an internet-connected platform to run it on. The bot can be one that they have written, downloaded, or stolen, KGS won't know nor care. Running a _rated_ bot on KGS is another matter. This requires active intervention by an admin, which is unlikely to be granted. While your bot is unrated, it won't be able to play any rated games, and won't acquire a rating. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
On 10/11/2007, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes A beginner could easily run gnugo for a day or two, get a 7k rank for the gnugo account, then replace gnugo with an account that moves randomly for a few moves then resigns. Play this new robot as white with handicap 6, and you will soon get a dan-level account. On the surface, that sounds like a broken system. That is only my opinion based on my limited knowledge of the situation you describe. It isn't broken, in the sense that a beginner can't do that, because he won't be able to get the bot's account rated. It is broken in the sense that even as things stand, he can persuade his big brother to open an account, win games, get a 2-dan rating, and then throw games to him. I don't see how any system could prevent this. This can be done relatively easily using network algorithms. Essentially your throttle how much of a contribution each other player can make to a player's rank. This throttling would probably be done relative difference in the rank between players and the square of the size of the pool of players. Such a metric would actually benefit all players, by encouraging them to play as many different other players as possible and avoid the formation of player cliques. One would have to ensure that you weren't penalising player who always played at a certain time of day in a certain timezone, however. cheers stuart ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
Le dimanche 11 novembre 2007, Stuart A. Yeates a écrit : On 10/11/2007, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes A beginner could easily run gnugo for a day or two, get a 7k rank for the gnugo account, then replace gnugo with an account that moves randomly for a few moves then resigns. Play this new robot as white with handicap 6, and you will soon get a dan-level account. Nick Wedd It is broken in the sense that even as things stand, he can persuade his big brother to open an account, win games, get a 2-dan rating, and then throw games to him. I don't see how any system could prevent this. [...] This can be done relatively easily using network algorithms. I don't understand how any algorithm can prevent cheaters without using some kind of trusted authentification. I think you have a gold mine in your hand if you can do this. Hopefully KGS dot aim to be secured as a banking system, and won't ask my finger prints before i can connect for a game :-) Essentially your throttle how much of a contribution each other player can make to a player's rank. This throttling would probably be done relative difference in the rank between players and the square of the size of the pool of players. Such a metric would actually benefit all players, by encouraging them to play as many different other players as possible and avoid the formation of player cliques. One would have to ensure that you weren't penalising player who always played at a certain time of day in a certain timezone, however. i suspect most people plays always at a certain time of the day, in their timezone, so currently there might be 3 cliques: Asia, Europe, and Americas. Cheers /Alain ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
i suspect most people plays always at a certain time of the day, in their timezone, so currently there might be 3 cliques: Asia, Europe, and Americas. there are also two other cliques: blitz and non-blitz. watching a randomly chosen game among very strong players on kgs, most will be blitz. people just don't play slow games that often. one thing about the system that works very well is that over time, everyone's rank stabilizes to exactly where it should be. you could probably game the system with a small group of people for a little while, but your rank would deteriorate rapidly once you started to playing other people. and there's a sense in which it makes absolutely no difference if you have an arbitrarily inflated rank -- it certainly wouldn't make you better in a tournament, for instance. at best it would gain you one or two games against strong players who would crush you. if you want that, just ask them. they're much more likely to offer a teaching game, which is more beneficial overall. likewise, any bot left up for more than a few hours per day which accepts arbitrary challenges is likely to end up at exactly its appropriate rank very quickly. i think that concern about rating inflation gives too much weight to the idea of a rank and not to the ranking system itself. the system itself works very well. similarly, people can sandbag and get a low rank for the purposes of getting extra handicap in a tournament. but again, it would serve very little purpose overall. s. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
On 11/11/2007, Alain Baeckeroot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le dimanche 11 novembre 2007, Stuart A. Yeates a écrit: Such a metric would actually benefit all players, by encouraging them to play as many different other players as possible and avoid the formation of player cliques. One would have to ensure that you weren't penalising player who always played at a certain time of day in a certain timezone, however. i suspect most people plays always at a certain time of the day, in their timezone, so currently there might be 3 cliques: Asia, Europe, and Americas. You're right, of course. It's merely a matter of ensuring that your mathematically definition of clique is appropriate. OTOH, I wouldn't lose any sleep over a metric that rewarded players who played occasionally played outside of their usual weekday evening slot. cheers stuart ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
On Fri, 2007-11-09 at 10:13 -0800, Christoph Birk wrote: What is the reasoing behind not rating bots? Christoph A beginner could easily run gnugo for a day or two, get a 7k rank for the gnugo account, then replace gnugo with an account that moves randomly for a few moves then resigns. Play this new robot as white with handicap 6, and you will soon get a dan-level account. To try to prevent that kind of business, we make it at least a little bit of effort to get a rated bot account. I don't think that any admin takes the time to police bots, but if admins hear complaints about something funny going on, I'm sure somebody would investigate. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes A beginner could easily run gnugo for a day or two, get a 7k rank for the gnugo account, then replace gnugo with an account that moves randomly for a few moves then resigns. Play this new robot as white with handicap 6, and you will soon get a dan-level account. On the surface, that sounds like a broken system. That is only my opinion based on my limited knowledge of the situation you describe. It isn't broken, in the sense that a beginner can't do that, because he won't be able to get the bot's account rated. It is broken in the sense that even as things stand, he can persuade his big brother to open an account, win games, get a 2-dan rating, and then throw games to him. I don't see how any system could prevent this. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
Ok, I see what you are saying now. On 11/10/07, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes A beginner could easily run gnugo for a day or two, get a 7k rank for the gnugo account, then replace gnugo with an account that moves randomly for a few moves then resigns. Play this new robot as white with handicap 6, and you will soon get a dan-level account. On the surface, that sounds like a broken system. That is only my opinion based on my limited knowledge of the situation you describe. It isn't broken, in the sense that a beginner can't do that, because he won't be able to get the bot's account rated. It is broken in the sense that even as things stand, he can persuade his big brother to open an account, win games, get a 2-dan rating, and then throw games to him. I don't see how any system could prevent this. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
TCP Port 2379 on goserver.gokgs.com This is an outbound connection from your system. No other connection is needed. On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 09:59 +0100, Olivier Teytaud wrote: Does someone know which port of which server can be accepted by KGS for launching a bot (we have tedious troubles with a firewall...) ? Thanks for any information, Olivier ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
What are the rules for putting bots on kgs? Do you have the author or can anyone put up a gnugo bot? -Josh On Nov 9, 2007 4:12 AM, William Shubert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TCP Port 2379 on goserver.gokgs.com This is an outbound connection from your system. No other connection is needed. On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 09:59 +0100, Olivier Teytaud wrote: Does someone know which port of which server can be accepted by KGS for launching a bot (we have tedious troubles with a firewall...) ? Thanks for any information, Olivier ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
The way I understand it, you must have permission from the program authors for either division. And only one version of a given program can compete in the formal division. On Nov 9, 2007 9:35 AM, Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What are the rules for putting bots on kgs? Do you have the author or can anyone put up a gnugo bot? -Josh On Nov 9, 2007 4:12 AM, William Shubert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TCP Port 2379 on goserver.gokgs.com This is an outbound connection from your system. No other connection is needed. On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 09:59 +0100, Olivier Teytaud wrote: Does someone know which port of which server can be accepted by KGS for launching a bot (we have tedious troubles with a firewall...) ? Thanks for any information, Olivier ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
To put a bot on KGS for general play, you simply need to set up a login ID and have kgsGtp use it. On Nov 9, 2007 9:35 AM, Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What are the rules for putting bots on kgs? Do you have the author or can anyone put up a gnugo bot? -Josh ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
Aye, it would be bad to enter a tournament with a bot I didn't write. I was thinking more general. Just for play. Thanks and good luck in the tourney :) -Josh On Nov 9, 2007 9:54 AM, Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was referring to the KGS bot tournaments. I see now that you did not specifically ask about that. On Nov 9, 2007 9:40 AM, Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The way I understand it, you must have permission from the program authors for either division. And only one version of a given program can compete in the formal division. On Nov 9, 2007 9:35 AM, Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What are the rules for putting bots on kgs? Do you have the author or can anyone put up a gnugo bot? -Josh On Nov 9, 2007 4:12 AM, William Shubert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TCP Port 2379 on goserver.gokgs.com This is an outbound connection from your system. No other connection is needed. On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 09:59 +0100, Olivier Teytaud wrote: Does someone know which port of which server can be accepted by KGS for launching a bot (we have tedious troubles with a firewall...) ? Thanks for any information, Olivier ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
I was referring to the KGS bot tournaments. I see now that you did not specifically ask about that. On Nov 9, 2007 9:40 AM, Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The way I understand it, you must have permission from the program authors for either division. And only one version of a given program can compete in the formal division. On Nov 9, 2007 9:35 AM, Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What are the rules for putting bots on kgs? Do you have the author or can anyone put up a gnugo bot? -Josh On Nov 9, 2007 4:12 AM, William Shubert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TCP Port 2379 on goserver.gokgs.com This is an outbound connection from your system. No other connection is needed. On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 09:59 +0100, Olivier Teytaud wrote: Does someone know which port of which server can be accepted by KGS for launching a bot (we have tedious troubles with a firewall...) ? Thanks for any information, Olivier ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Aye, it would be bad to enter a tournament with a bot I didn't write. I was thinking more general. Just for play. Anyone can run a bot on KGS, the only obstacles are the small amount of technical competence required to get it and kgsGtp running and connected, and the need for an internet-connected platform to run it on. The bot can be one that they have written, downloaded, or stolen, KGS won't know nor care. Running a _rated_ bot on KGS is another matter. This requires active intervention by an admin, which is unlikely to be granted. While your bot is unrated, it won't be able to play any rated games, and won't acquire a rating. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
Do you know of any reasons why it would not be granted to the program author? On Nov 9, 2007 12:53 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Unlikely to be granted? I assume you mean only if you are not the program author? It is more likely to be granted if you can convince them that you are the author; but by no means certain. I don't know what the guidelines are. As an admin myself, I ought to know. I shall try to find out. Nick On Nov 9, 2007 12:17 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Aye, it would be bad to enter a tournament with a bot I didn't write. I was thinking more general. Just for play. Anyone can run a bot on KGS, the only obstacles are the small amount of technical competence required to get it and kgsGtp running and connected, and the need for an internet-connected platform to run it on. The bot can be one that they have written, downloaded, or stolen, KGS won't know nor care. Running a _rated_ bot on KGS is another matter. This requires active intervention by an admin, which is unlikely to be granted. While your bot is unrated, it won't be able to play any rated games, and won't acquire a rating. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Unlikely to be granted? I assume you mean only if you are not the program author? It is more likely to be granted if you can convince them that you are the author; but by no means certain. I don't know what the guidelines are. As an admin myself, I ought to know. I shall try to find out. Nick On Nov 9, 2007 12:17 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Aye, it would be bad to enter a tournament with a bot I didn't write. I was thinking more general. Just for play. Anyone can run a bot on KGS, the only obstacles are the small amount of technical competence required to get it and kgsGtp running and connected, and the need for an internet-connected platform to run it on. The bot can be one that they have written, downloaded, or stolen, KGS won't know nor care. Running a _rated_ bot on KGS is another matter. This requires active intervention by an admin, which is unlikely to be granted. While your bot is unrated, it won't be able to play any rated games, and won't acquire a rating. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Nick Wedd wrote: Running a _rated_ bot on KGS is another matter. This requires active intervention by an admin, which is unlikely to be granted. While your bot is unrated, it won't be able to play any rated games, and won't acquire a rating. What is the reasoing behind not rating bots? Christoph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
On Nov 9, 2007 1:06 PM, Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you know of any reasons why it would not be granted to the program author? It may be possible to have a request slip through the cracks. I've submitted e-mail requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and gotten no response. Back in the cgoban2 days, I was granted a rated status for my bot with the explicit warning that it could be lost if the bot screwed up the scoring at the end of the game. I don't know if they review the bot's past performance on KGS as part of their consideration. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
