Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Erik van der Werf]

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Kahn Jonas  wrote:
>> Since I started this thread, with the message below, I have made
>> four more contributions to it. But none of them has shown up in
>> my mail client (the quoted message did show up). I am wondering
>> what is wrong.  Have other readers seen my postings here after
>> December 9th?
>
>
> No, this is your first message I see since you opened the thread.
> Jonas

It seems something is broken; at this point I have not yet received
Nicks email (though I can see it in the archives), while Jonas' reply
to it has already arrived. I've seen this behavior several times
lately, some messages arrive with substantial delay or not at all...

Erik
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Kahn Jonas]

Since I started this thread, with the message below, I have made
four more contributions to it. But none of them has shown up in
my mail client (the quoted message did show up). I am wondering
what is wrong.  Have other readers seen my postings here after
December 9th?


No, this is your first message I see since you opened the thread.
Jonas
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Nick Wedd]

Since I started this thread, with the message below, I have made
four more contributions to it. But none of them has shown up in
my mail client (the quoted message did show up). I am wondering
what is wrong.  Have other readers seen my postings here after
December 9th?

Nick



On 09/12/2013 19:31, Nick Wedd wrote:

Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's 13x13 KGS
bot tournament!

My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/98/index.html
As usual I will be grateful for your comments and corrections.

Nick



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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Ingo Althöfer]

Perhaps this would be a nice example for Master Jasiek ?!

Just my 2 Cent,
Ingo.

> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11. Dezember 2013 um 11:14 Uhr
> Von: "Stefan Kaitschick" 
> An: computer-go@dvandva.org
> Betreff: Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
>
> No wonder you got no takers. It's too complicated for amateurs to
> comment on it comfortably.
> All I can say, is that I couldnt spot any obvious mistakes in the ko fight.
> These bots are actually pretty great, when it comes to shortage of libs 
> fights.
> 
> Stefan
> 
> 
> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Rémi Coulom  wrote:
> > Hi Nick,
> >
> > Thanks for the report.
> >
> > "CrazyStone then also passed”: it was Aya
> >
> > I was very impressed by the strength of DolBaram, especially if we consider 
> > its hardware. I had the impression that it could have won the game it lost 
> > to Crazy Stone. I wonder if strong players can comment that game. It was a 
> > complicated semeai with a ko.
> >
> > Rémi
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Stefan Kaitschick]

No wonder you got no takers. It's too complicated for amateurs to
comment on it comfortably.
All I can say, is that I couldnt spot any obvious mistakes in the ko fight.
These bots are actually pretty great, when it comes to shortage of libs fights.

Stefan


On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Rémi Coulom  wrote:
> Hi Nick,
>
> Thanks for the report.
>
> "CrazyStone then also passed”: it was Aya
>
> I was very impressed by the strength of DolBaram, especially if we consider 
> its hardware. I had the impression that it could have won the game it lost to 
> Crazy Stone. I wonder if strong players can comment that game. It was a 
> complicated semeai with a ko.
>
> Rémi
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Aja Huang]

I made a test case with four bent-fours and seki. To break the seki at
center, at least one of the bent fours must be practically solved. Would be
interesting to see a Go program's behavior in this position. :)

Aja


2013/12/10 Darren Cook 

> > I am afraid can depend on rule set in use. I guess that under Japanese
> > rules bent four is dead by definition.
>
> If you had four bent-fours, one in each corner, all dead in Japanese
> rules for the same colour, *and* four un-removeable ko threats, is that
> the position that will give the biggest difference in score between
> Japanese and the other scoring methods?
>
> Just curious.
>
> (I was going to apologize for being off-topic but, now I think about it,
> such a position might make a fine corner-case test - in any rule set!)
>
> Darren
>
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4BentFours.sgf
Description: application/go-sgf
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Aja Huang]

2013/12/10 Darren Cook 
>
> If you had four bent-fours, one in each corner, all dead in Japanese
> rules for the same colour, *and* four un-removeable ko threats, is that
> the position that will give the biggest difference in score between
> Japanese and the other scoring methods?


Not sure if I understand what you meant here. If there are two groups of
corner bent-four on the board, they are both dead because it is the
defender that needs ko threats. In the attached example, W needs zero ko
threat to kill each B group. W can just eliminate all B's ko threats, then
start to kill each group one by one.

Aja


cornerBent4.sgf
Description: application/go-sgf
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Rémi Coulom]

Hi Nick,

Thanks for the report.

"CrazyStone then also passed”: it was Aya

I was very impressed by the strength of DolBaram, especially if we consider its 
hardware. I had the impression that it could have won the game it lost to Crazy 
Stone. I wonder if strong players can comment that game. It was a complicated 
semeai with a ko.

Rémi

On 9 déc. 2013, at 20:31, Nick Wedd  wrote:

> Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's 13x13 KGS
> bot tournament!
> 
> My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/98/index.html
> As usual I will be grateful for your comments and corrections.
> 
> Nick
> -- 
> Nick Wedd
> n...@maproom.co.uk
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

W can't play N12 if B has more than one external-lib since B will live
unconditionally, as the attached example shows.


I see.
But I'm thinking about this case.
I think W has to play J8, and B starts ko.
Aya never play J8 in playout, and B always wins. 


(;GM[1]SZ[9]
KM[7.0]RU[Chinese]
AB[fa][db][fb][hb][dc][fc][gc][hc][ic][dd][de][df][ef][ff][gf][hf][if]
AW[ea][ga][ha][ia][eb][ec][ed][fd][gd][hd][id][ag][bg][cg][dg][dh][di]
;B[da])

Hiroshi Yamashita

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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Aja Huang]

W can't play N12 if B has more than one external-lib since B will live
unconditionally, as the attached example shows.

Aja


2013/12/9 Hiroshi Yamashita 

> In round 3 CrazyStone vs. Aya, probably Aya was expecting W to play L12 or
>> N12, if B's corner was not 100% dead in the playouts. It seems a bug in
>> Aya's playouts, but even if there was no bug, Aya could still reasonably
>> expect W's L12 or N12 in the tree. Corner bent-four is not easy to handle
>>
>
> Yesterday I turned off bent4 code for test, and forgot. Aya understands
> bent4 as seki. And at end of playout, bent4 shape is counted as dead.
> It works well, but when outside of bent4 is semeai, it does not work.
> Maybe when outside W lib is 5, W has to play N12?
>
> And thanks for nice look cross-table and report. I was bit surprised
> I got runners-up 7 times in a row this year.
>
> Regards,
> Hiroshi Yamashita
>
>
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cornerBent4.sgf
Description: application/go-sgf
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Stefan Kaitschick]

Oops, your so right. The defender has no ko threat in the 2nd bent
four. I didnt think that through.

Stefan

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 9:46 AM, Petri Pitkanen
 wrote:
> I am afraid can depend on rule set in use. I guess that under Japanese rules
> bent four is dead by definition.
>
>
>
> But having two of them does not really change anything as attacker can
> choose to fight then after each other.
>
> Petri
>
>
> 2013/12/10 Stefan Kaitschick 
>>
>> What happens with 2 bent fours?
>> You should be able to save one of them.
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita 
>> wrote:
>> >> In round 3 CrazyStone vs. Aya, probably Aya was expecting W to play L12
>> >> or
>> >> N12, if B's corner was not 100% dead in the playouts. It seems a bug in
>> >> Aya's playouts, but even if there was no bug, Aya could still
>> >> reasonably
>> >> expect W's L12 or N12 in the tree. Corner bent-four is not easy to
>> >> handle
>> >
>> >
>> > Yesterday I turned off bent4 code for test, and forgot. Aya understands
>> > bent4 as seki. And at end of playout, bent4 shape is counted as dead.
>> > It works well, but when outside of bent4 is semeai, it does not work.
>> > Maybe when outside W lib is 5, W has to play N12?
>> >
>> > And thanks for nice look cross-table and report. I was bit surprised
>> > I got runners-up 7 times in a row this year.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Hiroshi Yamashita
>> >
>> >
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Darren Cook]

> I am afraid can depend on rule set in use. I guess that under Japanese
> rules bent four is dead by definition.

If you had four bent-fours, one in each corner, all dead in Japanese
rules for the same colour, *and* four un-removeable ko threats, is that
the position that will give the biggest difference in score between
Japanese and the other scoring methods?

Just curious.

(I was going to apologize for being off-topic but, now I think about it,
such a position might make a fine corner-case test - in any rule set!)

Darren

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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Petri Pitkanen]

I am afraid can depend on rule set in use. I guess that under Japanese
rules bent four is dead by definition.



But having two of them does not really change anything as attacker can
choose to fight then after each other.

Petri


2013/12/10 Stefan Kaitschick 

> What happens with 2 bent fours?
> You should be able to save one of them.
>
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita 
> wrote:
> >> In round 3 CrazyStone vs. Aya, probably Aya was expecting W to play L12
> or
> >> N12, if B's corner was not 100% dead in the playouts. It seems a bug in
> >> Aya's playouts, but even if there was no bug, Aya could still reasonably
> >> expect W's L12 or N12 in the tree. Corner bent-four is not easy to
> handle
> >
> >
> > Yesterday I turned off bent4 code for test, and forgot. Aya understands
> > bent4 as seki. And at end of playout, bent4 shape is counted as dead.
> > It works well, but when outside of bent4 is semeai, it does not work.
> > Maybe when outside W lib is 5, W has to play N12?
> >
> > And thanks for nice look cross-table and report. I was bit surprised
> > I got runners-up 7 times in a row this year.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Hiroshi Yamashita
> >
> >
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Erik van der Werf]

Does it matter? You just remove ko threaths. The problem is with
unremovable ko threaths.
 Op 10 dec. 2013 09:33 schreef "Stefan Kaitschick" <
stefan.kaitsch...@hamburg.de>:

> What happens with 2 bent fours?
> You should be able to save one of them.
>
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita 
> wrote:
> >> In round 3 CrazyStone vs. Aya, probably Aya was expecting W to play L12
> or
> >> N12, if B's corner was not 100% dead in the playouts. It seems a bug in
> >> Aya's playouts, but even if there was no bug, Aya could still reasonably
> >> expect W's L12 or N12 in the tree. Corner bent-four is not easy to
> handle
> >
> >
> > Yesterday I turned off bent4 code for test, and forgot. Aya understands
> > bent4 as seki. And at end of playout, bent4 shape is counted as dead.
> > It works well, but when outside of bent4 is semeai, it does not work.
> > Maybe when outside W lib is 5, W has to play N12?
> >
> > And thanks for nice look cross-table and report. I was bit surprised
> > I got runners-up 7 times in a row this year.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Hiroshi Yamashita
> >
> >
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Stefan Kaitschick]

What happens with 2 bent fours?
You should be able to save one of them.

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita  wrote:
>> In round 3 CrazyStone vs. Aya, probably Aya was expecting W to play L12 or
>> N12, if B's corner was not 100% dead in the playouts. It seems a bug in
>> Aya's playouts, but even if there was no bug, Aya could still reasonably
>> expect W's L12 or N12 in the tree. Corner bent-four is not easy to handle
>
>
> Yesterday I turned off bent4 code for test, and forgot. Aya understands
> bent4 as seki. And at end of playout, bent4 shape is counted as dead.
> It works well, but when outside of bent4 is semeai, it does not work.
> Maybe when outside W lib is 5, W has to play N12?
>
> And thanks for nice look cross-table and report. I was bit surprised
> I got runners-up 7 times in a row this year.
>
> Regards,
> Hiroshi Yamashita
>
>
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[uurtamo .]

+1
On Dec 9, 2013 1:30 PM, "Jim O'Flaherty"  wrote:

> Nick,
>
> Is there an online viewer you could link to which would show the games in
> a web-browser rather than my downloading an .sgf and then having to have a
> local viewer work through them? Sometimes, I would like to look at these on
> my mobile phone. And it's trivial to bounce to a web-page. It is
> non-trivial for me to select a game, dl the .sgf, migrated it to where my
> go viewer is (assuming I have done all the steps to download an .sgf viewer
> for my particular mobile phone or tablet) and finally get my viewer to show
> it.
>
> Anyway, if there was a simple way to have a rudimentary web-page based
> game viewer, it would reduce the amount of effort to explore the different
> games from a tournament.
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Nick Wedd  wrote:
>
>> Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's 13x13 KGS
>> bot tournament!
>>
>> My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/98/index.html
>> As usual I will be grateful for your comments and corrections.
>>
>> Nick
>> --
>> Nick Wedd
>> n...@maproom.co.uk
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Jim O'Flaherty]

Nick,

Is there an online viewer you could link to which would show the games in a
web-browser rather than my downloading an .sgf and then having to have a
local viewer work through them? Sometimes, I would like to look at these on
my mobile phone. And it's trivial to bounce to a web-page. It is
non-trivial for me to select a game, dl the .sgf, migrated it to where my
go viewer is (assuming I have done all the steps to download an .sgf viewer
for my particular mobile phone or tablet) and finally get my viewer to show
it.

Anyway, if there was a simple way to have a rudimentary web-page based game
viewer, it would reduce the amount of effort to explore the different games
from a tournament.


Thank you,

Jim



On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Nick Wedd  wrote:

> Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's 13x13 KGS
> bot tournament!
>
> My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/98/index.html
> As usual I will be grateful for your comments and corrections.
>
> Nick
> --
> Nick Wedd
> n...@maproom.co.uk
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

In round 3 CrazyStone vs. Aya, probably Aya was expecting W to play L12 or
N12, if B's corner was not 100% dead in the playouts. It seems a bug in
Aya's playouts, but even if there was no bug, Aya could still reasonably
expect W's L12 or N12 in the tree. Corner bent-four is not easy to handle


Yesterday I turned off bent4 code for test, and forgot. Aya understands
bent4 as seki. And at end of playout, bent4 shape is counted as dead.
It works well, but when outside of bent4 is semeai, it does not work.
Maybe when outside W lib is 5, W has to play N12?

And thanks for nice look cross-table and report. I was bit surprised
I got runners-up 7 times in a row this year.

Regards,
Hiroshi Yamashita

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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Aja Huang]

In round 3 CrazyStone vs. Aya, probably Aya was expecting W to play L12 or
N12, if B's corner was not 100% dead in the playouts. It seems a bug in
Aya's playouts, but even if there was no bug, Aya could still reasonably
expect W's L12 or N12 in the tree. Corner bent-four is not easy to handle
correctly.

This game is funny
http://files.gokgs.com/games/2013/12/8/AyaMC-DolBaram.sgf

I believe such early-ending positions should be handed over to the referee
to decide the final result. At least that's what people would do in human
Go tournaments.

Aja


2013/12/9 Nick Wedd 

> Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's 13x13 KGS
> bot tournament!
>
> My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/98/index.html
> As usual I will be grateful for your comments and corrections.
>
> Nick
> --
> Nick Wedd
> n...@maproom.co.uk
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Aja Huang]

Thanks Nick. I'm impressed by Martin's comments. :)

Aja


2013/12/9 Nick Wedd 

> Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's 13x13 KGS
> bot tournament!
>
> My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/98/index.html
> As usual I will be grateful for your comments and corrections.
>
> Nick
> --
> Nick Wedd
> n...@maproom.co.uk
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[Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Nick Wedd]

Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's 13x13 KGS
bot tournament!

My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/98/index.html
As usual I will be grateful for your comments and corrections.

Nick
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Nick Wedd]

On 21/11/2013 06:01, Hideki Kato wrote:

Thank you for the tournament and the report, Nick.

In the Annual Championship page, the positions of DolBaram and Nomitan
are wrong (http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/annual/index.html).


Thank you for pointing this out.  I have corrected it.

Best wishes,
Nick


Congratulations to CrazyStone!

Hideki

Nick Wedd: <528a6d4c.80...@maproom.co.uk>:

Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's KGS bot
tournament, with 12 wins from 12 games!

My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/97/index.html
As usual I will be grateful for your comments and corrections.

Nick



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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Hideki Kato]

Thank you for the tournament and the report, Nick.

In the Annual Championship page, the positions of DolBaram and Nomitan 
are wrong (http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/annual/index.html).

Congratulations to CrazyStone!

Hideki

Nick Wedd: <528a6d4c.80...@maproom.co.uk>:
>Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's KGS bot
>tournament, with 12 wins from 12 games!
>
>My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/97/index.html
>As usual I will be grateful for your comments and corrections.
>
>Nick
-- 
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Lars Schäfers]

> I don't think it is wrong.  I do think it is inadvisable.  You are
> trusting the server's score-counter to count in the way that you
> expect, when there are dead groups on the board and it can reasonably
> assume that there are no dead groups on the board.
> 
> For instance, in the position shown, it counted B2 as a point for
> White, even while it was regarding the black stones at C1 and C3 as 
> alive. Did your code _know_ it was going to do that?

I think the scoring rules in the clean-up phase are pretty clear (and
even simpler than in the normal playing phase). After two consecutive
passes in the clean-up phase it says that all stones are regarded as
alive. It is just dangerous to continue play only to further clarify the
situation. 
I think it's more likely that you might lose on time because of a
network lag or some yet undiscovered bug in your engine (or the
server/gtpClient) than that you might lose because the server will count
wrong. Especially when playing with a cluster there are plenty of
possibilities to crash :/

This is at least the reason why Gomorra also passes as early as
possible, when the game is won following the KGS rules. And in the past
the tournament report often said about such games that Gomorra failed to
correctly cleaning up the board, but won anyway. This was for the reason
given above. 


Congratulations to CrazyStone!

Thank you Nick for the report!

- Lars

-- 
Lars Schaefers
Computer Engineering Group of Prof. Dr. Marco Platzner
Paderborn Center for Parallel Computing, University of Paderborn
Pohlweg 47-49, 33098 Paderborn, Germany
Tel: +49 (0)5251 60 4341, Fax: +49 (0)5251 60 5377
Office: Building O 3.119




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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Nick Wedd]

On 18/11/2013 21:29, Detlef Schmicker wrote:

Thanks Nick,

as you ask both programmers to handle clean up correctly (round 2): I
would say NiceGo did. It is by design, that it passes for the end of
game if it counts a win with the clean-up rules.

If you think, this is wrong handling, please explain. Of cause we want
to do good handling of the clean-up phase.


I don't think it is wrong.  I do think it is inadvisable.  You are
trusting the server's score-counter to count in the way that you
expect, when there are dead groups on the board and it can reasonably
assume that there are no dead groups on the board.

For instance, in the position shown, it counted B2 as a point for
White, even while it was regarding the black stones at C1 and C3 as 
alive. Did your code _know_ it was going to do that?



Our opening as black is really strange (round 3). We open much better
with fewer playouts:) Therefore the other thread about strength vs.
playouts:)


It worked well against Orego :-)

Nick


Detlef

Am Montag, den 18.11.2013, 19:41 + schrieb Nick Wedd:

Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's KGS bot
tournament, with 12 wins from 12 games!

My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/97/index.html
As usual I will be grateful for your comments and corrections.

Nick







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n...@maproom.co.uk
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Detlef Schmicker]

Thanks Nick,

as you ask both programmers to handle clean up correctly (round 2): I
would say NiceGo did. It is by design, that it passes for the end of
game if it counts a win with the clean-up rules.

If you think, this is wrong handling, please explain. Of cause we want
to do good handling of the clean-up phase.

Our opening as black is really strange (round 3). We open much better
with fewer playouts:) Therefore the other thread about strength vs.
playouts:)

Detlef

Am Montag, den 18.11.2013, 19:41 + schrieb Nick Wedd:
> Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's KGS bot
> tournament, with 12 wins from 12 games!
> 
> My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/97/index.html
> As usual I will be grateful for your comments and corrections.
> 
> Nick


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[Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Nick Wedd]

Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's KGS bot
tournament, with 12 wins from 12 games!

My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/97/index.html
As usual I will be grateful for your comments and corrections.

Nick
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n...@maproom.co.uk
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Aja Huang]

Congratulations to Crazy Stone! The two games between CS and Zen are quite
exciting.
Thanks for the report, Nick. I hope you'll get well soon.

Aja

2013/1/15 Nick Wedd 

> Congratulations to Crazy Stone, undefeated winner of Sunday's
> 19x19 bot tournament!
>
> My (very short) report is at
> http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/**past/89/index.html
> As usual, I welcome your comments and corrections.
>
> Nick
> --
> Nick Wedd
> n...@maproom.co.uk
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[Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Nick Wedd]

Congratulations to Crazy Stone, undefeated winner of Sunday's
19x19 bot tournament!

My (very short) report is at
http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/89/index.html
As usual, I welcome your comments and corrections.

Nick
--
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n...@maproom.co.uk
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[Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!

[Nick Wedd]

Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's 9x9 KGS bot
tournament!  And to Steenvreter, which finished only half a point
behind it, after 18 rounds!

My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/88/index.html
As usual, I look forward to receiving your corrections and comments.

Nick
--
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n...@maproom.co.uk
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