[CGUYS] Databases: Open Office Base?
Has anyone used Base, the database program of Open Office? If so, what did you think of it? What happened when you tried to use it? Any other database recommendations? For an acquaintance who's trying to organize a lot of documents to put on a website, I was going to recommend FileMaker Pro, which I've worked with for years and which can produce crash-proof databases. But it's kind of expensive. What do you think? --Constance Warner * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Databases: Open Office Base?
We've tried it. It worked good. But then, so did Zoho, and so does Google Docs. What actually forced us to keep using Office was envelope printing, which I could never quite get right in OO. I've never actually tried to put a bunch of documents online, so I can't speak with any experience. But I don't think Office can do it. If they just want to make a list to be manually copied somewhere, that could be done with virtually any app including notepad. If they're making a website, they should probably work with whatever the site is using (e.g. Wordpress). Actually, now I think about it, I do keep maybe a dozen important company documents online - I just used Dreamweaver to make a list. On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 2:15 AM, Constance Warnercawar...@his.com wrote: Has anyone used Base, the database program of Open Office? If so, what did you think of it? What happened when you tried to use it? Any other database recommendations? For an acquaintance who's trying to organize a lot of documents to put on a website, I was going to recommend FileMaker Pro, which I've worked with for years and which can produce crash-proof databases. But it's kind of expensive. What do you think? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Databases: Open Office Base?
On Jun 19, 2009, at 2:15 AM, Constance Warner wrote: For an acquaintance who's trying to organize a lot of documents to put on a website, I was going to recommend FileMaker Pro, which I've worked with for years and which can produce crash-proof databases. But it's kind of expensive. What do you think? I'm confused. Are these documents or databases that are to be posted online? Flat files or relational model? The details make a big difference in software selection. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Reality Sets In -- Win7 to XP Downgrade Plan Contemplated
http://gcn.com/articles/2009/06/18/microsoft-clarifies-windows-7- downgrade-rights.aspx?s=gcndaily_190609 As I would expect, M$'s first offer only applies to expensive versions of Win7. How long will it be before we get a downgrade plan for NetBooks? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Bing Usage Stats Bogus
Why am I not surprised? http://www.reuters.com/article/bigMoney/idUS17601820090618 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Databases: Open Office Base?
It's like this: I was visiting the offices of a small nonprofit dedicated to promoting civic activism and getting out the vote. One of the staff members gestured towards a filing cabinet and some banker boxes and said, We'd like to get these [documents] organized and have a way to get these out to our field organizers when they want them and when we need to send them. They'd been using fax, U.S. mail, and hand carrying the documents in the past. Right now, most of the documents aren't even in electronic format. They have basic computers, of course, but neither they nor their field organizers can afford the latest electronic bells and whistles (no iPhones, for example). A lot of small nonprofits are like that. So I was trying to offer them a few basic suggestions. FileMaker Pro would be nice for them to use to index their documents, because it's easy to use and, once it's set up properly, it's practically crash- proof. On the other hand, it's expensive. Base is free, but I've never used it (and neither has anybody else I know). Somebody else-- not me--will be doing the work for this nonprofit, but these are very nice people and I wanted to offer them a few signposts. They're really brilliant, politically; they just haven't had the time to get really computer savvy, or the money for the latest computers, webmasters, or IT workers. --Constance Warner On Jun 19, 2009, at 10:49 AM, t.piwowar wrote: On Jun 19, 2009, at 2:15 AM, Constance Warner wrote: For an acquaintance who's trying to organize a lot of documents to put on a website, I was going to recommend FileMaker Pro, which I've worked with for years and which can produce crash-proof databases. But it's kind of expensive. What do you think? I'm confused. Are these documents or databases that are to be posted online? Flat files or relational model? The details make a big difference in software selection. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Bing Usage Stats Bogus
Reuters is a stooge of MS too?? Oh when will it end? *yawn* On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 9:51 AM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: Why am I not surprised? http://www.reuters.com/article/bigMoney/idUS17601820090618 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Bing Usage Stats Bogus
On Jun 19, 2009, at 1:33 PM, mike shoots off his mouth without reading the link: Reuters is a stooge of MS too?? Oh when will it end? Why am I not surprised? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Bing Usage Stats Bogus
*the news from Reuters that Bing has pushed Microsoft's (MSFT) share of the search market to 12.1 percent should have Larry and Sergey a little spooked. * There they go again, Reuters carrying MS's water. Good call Tom, glad you are always on the lookout for more evil stuff MS is always doing. On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 10:55 AM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Jun 19, 2009, at 1:33 PM, mike shoots off his mouth without reading the link: Reuters is a stooge of MS too?? Oh when will it end? Why am I not surprised? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Databases: Open Office Base?
I have tried to use Open Office to mail merge to email... discovered it was not possible (as of 2008). I suspect there are other shortfalls in Open Office as well. Constance, If this is a paid consult, I would steer them towards the more expensive (but better supported and more reliable) products to help them achieve their mission and reflect better light on yourself. Saving them money is good, but only if you are SURE that it won't backfire on your reputation. - Brian - Original Message - From: Constance Warner cawar...@his.com Subject: [CGUYS] Databases: Open Office Base? Has anyone used Base, the database program of Open Office? If so, what did you think of it? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Bing Usage Stats Bogus
You really have a reading comprehension problem. This explains a lot. On Jun 19, 2009, at 2:06 PM, mike wrote: There they go again, Reuters carrying MS's water. Good call Tom, glad you are always on the lookout for more evil stuff MS is always doing. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] I Got 9
I still have neither 7 or 9 and I'm inside the Beltway. Ellen H. - Original Message - From: phartz...@gmail.com phartz...@gmail.com To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 12:23 AM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] I Got 9 On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 11:03 PM, t.piwowart...@tjpa.com wrote: Finally today. Signal strength is between 85 and 90, which is plenty good enough, but not the 100 I get with most other stations. Hooray! The problem with digital OTA transmissions has been well exhibited by our local governments. They have pretty much all switched to digital modes of radio comms from analog, and have suffered a series of well publicized problems as a result. OTA TV viewers are now experiencing many of the same issues. OTA digital is quite prone to all sorts of interference problems. When OTA DTV works well it is good, but when it doesn't work well, it is very bad. Would you rather have a highly reliable, albeit lower resolution television service, or a higher resolution unreliable one? Think about that in computer terms. Which you you rather have in a computer? One that is somewhat slower but very reliable, or a faster one that craps out routinely? Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] links cut off
Is it the list or gmail? I've noticed a lot of very short links lately. This one is de-linked right between the 7- and the down. There's no space there so it makes no sense. But it breaks the link, making it bad. Very inconvenient. On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 10:57 AM, t.piwowart...@tjpa.com wrote: http://gcn.com/articles/2009/06/18/microsoft-clarifies-windows-7-downgrade-rights.aspx?s=gcndaily_190609 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Databases: Open Office Base?
Okay, so we have a whole honking *file cabinet* full of paper documents that need to be scanned and put online. This is not going to be an easy task. But you're skipping all the way to almost the end of the project and asking about databases. Long before you worry about a db you need to figure out how to scan the stuff. Most commercial scanners will come with some sort of document management app. I think. Monumental task, not for a database app at all. What you want is a sheet-fed scanner with document management software. I dunno, but here's a random link via a search for sheet fed document management: http://ask-leo.com/fujitsu_scansnap_a_fast_sheetfed_document_scanner.html On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Constance Warnercawar...@his.com wrote: It's like this: I was visiting the offices of a small nonprofit dedicated to promoting civic activism and getting out the vote. One of the staff members gestured towards a filing cabinet and some banker boxes and said, We'd like to get these [documents] organized and have a way to get these out to our field organizers when they want them and when we need to send them. They'd been using fax, U.S. mail, and hand carrying the documents in the past. Right now, most of the documents aren't even in electronic format. They have basic computers, of course, but neither they nor their field organizers can afford the latest electronic bells and whistles (no iPhones, for example). A lot of small nonprofits are like that. So I was trying to offer them a few basic suggestions. FileMaker Pro would be nice for them to use to index their documents, because it's easy to use and, once it's set up properly, it's practically crash-proof. On the other hand, it's expensive. Base is free, but I've never used it (and neither has anybody else I know). Somebody else--not me--will be doing the work for this nonprofit, but these are very nice people and I wanted to offer them a few signposts. They're really brilliant, politically; they just haven't had the time to get really computer savvy, or the money for the latest computers, webmasters, or IT workers. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] links cut off
The link worked for me accessing it using Apple Mail. On Jun 19, 2009, at 4:25 PM, Tony B wrote: Is it the list or gmail? I've noticed a lot of very short links lately. This one is de-linked right between the 7- and the down. There's no space there so it makes no sense. But it breaks the link, making it bad. Very inconvenient. On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 10:57 AM, t.piwowart...@tjpa.com wrote: http://gcn.com/articles/2009/06/18/microsoft-clarifies-windows-7- downgrade-rights.aspx?s=gcndaily_190609 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Bing Usage Stats Bogus
I know, I have trouble understanding Piwowar, it's like trying to understand mandarin while under water. On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 12:59 PM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: You really have a reading comprehension problem. This explains a lot. On Jun 19, 2009, at 2:06 PM, mike wrote: There they go again, Reuters carrying MS's water. Good call Tom, glad you are always on the lookout for more evil stuff MS is always doing. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Databases: Open Office Base?
Constance, If I were them, I would scan all the docs as PDF files, then index them in a hyperlinked .xls file that serves as the index. It's simple to do, you can throw the whole directory up on a website behind a login and password, and with a reasonable scanner, they can do about a five drawer filecabinet a week. Further, if they choose to, they can bulk OCR them and make each page that's legible searchable. It's cheap and easy and I've done it with OpenOffice. - Original Message - From: Constance Warner cawar...@his.com To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Databases: Open Office Base? It's like this: I was visiting the offices of a small nonprofit dedicated to promoting civic activism and getting out the vote. One of the staff members gestured towards a filing cabinet and some banker boxes and said, We'd like to get these [documents] organized and have a way to get these out to our field organizers when they want them and when we need to send them. They'd been using fax, U.S. mail, and hand carrying the documents in the past. Right now, most of the documents aren't even in electronic format. They have basic computers, of course, but neither they nor their field organizers can afford the latest electronic bells and whistles (no iPhones, for example). A lot of small nonprofits are like that. So I was trying to offer them a few basic suggestions. FileMaker Pro would be nice for them to use to index their documents, because it's easy to use and, once it's set up properly, it's practically crash- proof. On the other hand, it's expensive. Base is free, but I've never used it (and neither has anybody else I know). Somebody else-- not me--will be doing the work for this nonprofit, but these are very nice people and I wanted to offer them a few signposts. They're really brilliant, politically; they just haven't had the time to get really computer savvy, or the money for the latest computers, webmasters, or IT workers. --Constance Warner On Jun 19, 2009, at 10:49 AM, t.piwowar wrote: On Jun 19, 2009, at 2:15 AM, Constance Warner wrote: For an acquaintance who's trying to organize a lot of documents to put on a website, I was going to recommend FileMaker Pro, which I've worked with for years and which can produce crash-proof databases. But it's kind of expensive. What do you think? I'm confused. Are these documents or databases that are to be posted online? Flat files or relational model? The details make a big difference in software selection. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] I Got 9
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 4:02 PM, Ellen Rains Harrisel...@goodshiptabasco.com wrote: I still have neither 7 or 9 and I'm inside the Beltway. Those two channels did migrate from temporary UHF digital frequencies to VHF frequencies on June 12. A VHF capable antenna would probably be needed to receive them now while a UHF antenna was needed earlier. From inside the beltway, a fairly simple VHF antenna such as the venerable rabbit ears should work. However, these digital transmissions are highly prone to all sorts of anomalies as opposed to the previous analog mode of television signal transmission. We have all now entered a highly complex and potentially troublesome era of TV broadcast reception, which is going to leave a lot of folks wondering if the available programing is really worth the effort to be able to receive it. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Databases: Open Office Base?
On Jun 19, 2009, at 1:06 PM, Constance Warner wrote: It's like this: I was visiting the offices of a small nonprofit dedicated to promoting civic activism and getting out the vote. One of the staff members gestured towards a filing cabinet and some banker boxes and said, We'd like to get these [documents] organized and have a way to get these out to our field organizers when they want them and when we need to send them. They'd been using fax, U.S. mail, and hand carrying the documents in the past. Right now, most of the documents aren't even in electronic format. They have basic computers, of course, but neither they nor their field organizers can afford the latest electronic bells and whistles (no iPhones, for example). A lot of small nonprofits are like that. This does not look to me like a job for a database. Step 1 would be digitizing all the documents. A huge job. So step zero is identifying a (hopefully small) subset that is most used. These would be scanned to PDF and possibly OCRed by Acrobat for searching. That's what summer interns are made for and this year those are easy to get. So Acrobat would be the big expense. They need to check with Stone Soup to see if they qualify for the non-profit price. The storage schema really depends of what their content looks like. A series of hierarchical folders may suffice. Storage using a tagging file system would probably be the best. There are $25 add-ons for OS X that support this. MS cancelled that promise for Vista. Also need to make sure that backups are up to snuff. I know of one association that moved years of documents online and then lost all their files. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Databases: Open Office Base?
t.piwowar wrote: This does not look to me like a job for a database. Step 1 would be digitizing all the documents. . . . So Acrobat would be the big expense. They need to check with Stone Soup to see if they qualify for the non-profit price. Tom, Did you mean TechSoup I do recommend that they check with them (http://www.techsoup.org/) Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Databases: Open Office Base?
On Jun 19, 2009, at 6:02 PM, Stephen Brownfield wrote: Did you mean TechSoup I do recommend that they check with them (http://www.techsoup.org/) Thanks Steve. Yes that was a brain cramp. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Databases: Open Office Base?
Somebody I know uses Open Source Alfresco document management with a commercial canon scanner. But there is a lot of techie setup and server overhead and sometimes paper and drawers are in certain ways just easier and cheaper. basically tech by itself ... a software program or a digital tool ... isn't an answer without the tech skills and overhead that set it up, do the training of users and maintain it thereafter. db Tony B wrote: Okay, so we have a whole honking *file cabinet* full of paper documents that need to be scanned and put online. This is not going to be an easy task. But you're skipping all the way to almost the end of the project and asking about databases. Long before you worry about a db you need to figure out how to scan the stuff. Most commercial scanners will come with some sort of document management app. I think. Monumental task, not for a database app at all. What you want is a sheet-fed scanner with document management software. I dunno, but here's a random link via a search for sheet fed document management: http://ask-leo.com/fujitsu_scansnap_a_fast_sheetfed_document_scanner.html On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Constance Warnercawar...@his.com wrote: It's like this: I was visiting the offices of a small nonprofit dedicated to promoting civic activism and getting out the vote. One of the staff members gestured towards a filing cabinet and some banker boxes and said, We'd like to get these [documents] organized and have a way to get these out to our field organizers when they want them and when we need to send them. They'd been using fax, U.S. mail, and hand carrying the documents in the past. Right now, most of the documents aren't even in electronic format. They have basic computers, of course, but neither they nor their field organizers can afford the latest electronic bells and whistles (no iPhones, for example). A lot of small nonprofits are like that. So I was trying to offer them a few basic suggestions. FileMaker Pro would be nice for them to use to index their documents, because it's easy to use and, once it's set up properly, it's practically crash-proof. On the other hand, it's expensive. Base is free, but I've never used it (and neither has anybody else I know). Somebody else--not me--will be doing the work for this nonprofit, but these are very nice people and I wanted to offer them a few signposts. They're really brilliant, politically; they just haven't had the time to get really computer savvy, or the money for the latest computers, webmasters, or IT workers. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] I Got 9
I have a digital antenna that ties into a coax plug marked digital on my fancy TV, with my analog cable plugged into the analog coax plug. I have room for many other inputs, but no other antennae - Original Message - From: phartz...@gmail.com phartz...@gmail.com To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] I Got 9 On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 4:02 PM, Ellen Rains Harrisel...@goodshiptabasco.com wrote: I still have neither 7 or 9 and I'm inside the Beltway. Those two channels did migrate from temporary UHF digital frequencies to VHF frequencies on June 12. A VHF capable antenna would probably be needed to receive them now while a UHF antenna was needed earlier. From inside the beltway, a fairly simple VHF antenna such as the venerable rabbit ears should work. However, these digital transmissions are highly prone to all sorts of anomalies as opposed to the previous analog mode of television signal transmission. We have all now entered a highly complex and potentially troublesome era of TV broadcast reception, which is going to leave a lot of folks wondering if the available programing is really worth the effort to be able to receive it. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Databases: Open Office Base?
Thanks for the tip on the Fujitsu scanner--you can get a nice tray- feed scanner for a lot less than when I used a $3,000 Canon tray-feed scanner to to make tiffs for a fax-on-demand service. However, scanning is the EASY part. I've worked on--and supervised-- scanning projects and digital document archives before. A well- thought-out classification system, preferably embodied in an idiot- proof, robust database (planned BEFORE you start scanning) is a must. I say this from sad experience. The last such project I worked on had an Excel spreadsheet (in lieu of a real database) to keep track of the documents, with a vague classification system and minimal data in the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet was kind of an ad- hoc affair, altered whenever the supervisor decided that the project needed improvements. Result: the association members, who were supposed to log into the website to download the documents, couldn't find anything. They complained a lot before they just gave up on using the system entirely. Needless to say, I wasn't supervising THIS project. By contrast, the computerized fax-on-demand service, which I DID supervise: I used a FileMaker Pro database; the paper documents were classified and entered into the database before anything was scanned. I always knew where to find any type or category of document--or any particular title--and the members did too. And as for the nonprofit with the cabinet full of documents to be scanned: Im betting they have friends in other organizations with tray-feed scanners they can use, and interns to run them. These small political nonprofits tend to be cash-poor--which is why I'm hoping that Base will work for them--but they're connection-rich. --Constance Warner The previous system On Jun 19, 2009, at 4:35 PM, Tony B wrote: Okay, so we have a whole honking *file cabinet* full of paper documents that need to be scanned and put online. This is not going to be an easy task. But you're skipping all the way to almost the end of the project and asking about databases. Long before you worry about a db you need to figure out how to scan the stuff. Most commercial scanners will come with some sort of document management app. I think. Monumental task, not for a database app at all. What you want is a sheet-fed scanner with document management software. I dunno, but here's a random link via a search for sheet fed document management: http://ask-leo.com/ fujitsu_scansnap_a_fast_sheetfed_document_scanner.html On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Constance Warnercawar...@his.com wrote: It's like this: I was visiting the offices of a small nonprofit dedicated to promoting civic activism and getting out the vote. One of the staff members gestured towards a filing cabinet and some banker boxes and said, We'd like to get these [documents] organized and have a way to get these out to our field organizers when they want them and when we need to send them. They'd been using fax, U.S. mail, and hand carrying the documents in the past. Right now, most of the documents aren't even in electronic format. They have basic computers, of course, but neither they nor their field organizers can afford the latest electronic bells and whistles (no iPhones, for example). A lot of small nonprofits are like that. So I was trying to offer them a few basic suggestions. FileMaker Pro would be nice for them to use to index their documents, because it's easy to use and, once it's set up properly, it's practically crash-proof. On the other hand, it's expensive. Base is free, but I've never used it (and neither has anybody else I know). Somebody else--not me--will be doing the work for this nonprofit, but these are very nice people and I wanted to offer them a few signposts. They're really brilliant, politically; they just haven't had the time to get really computer savvy, or the money for the latest computers, webmasters, or IT workers. ** *** ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** ** *** * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
